Application used in sparring

[wiz cool c]

I like to analyze sparring footage I take and comparing them to the still photos from forms practice. Many people make comments on kung fu sparring clips and say[they didn't use kung fu at all, or that wasn't real kung fu]. They simply don't understand how kung fu works, and expect it to look like a kung fu movie
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--t-h7X8Qr0

[SHemmati]

no offence, jut stop it. stop spreading misinformation when you can't even perform a simple punch. that was all like an old lady who can't stand firmly on her feet, trying to punch a bully. oh, why am i telling these to you? :confused::mad:
everything you told and did was pure wrong.

[mickey]

no offence, jut stop it. stop spreading misinformation when you can't even perform a simple punch. that was all like an old lady who can't stand firmly on her feet, trying to punch a bully. oh, why am i telling these to you? :confused::mad:
everything you told and did was pure wrong.


Sounds like Bane speaking to Batman.


mickey

[wiz cool c]

Another kung fu guy living in kung fu fantasy land what a surprise. a billion theories and no action. Here are some more clips of me competing, grappling and sparring with Thai boxing students. Can you theoretically tell me how I was wrong when I throw someone on the ground or kick them in the face. Unbelievable people still believe in the untouchable kung fu master nonsense. People want to pose in fancy outfits, shaved heads, and wear beads and not get their hands dirty. Only people you are fooling are people like yourself, who want to live in this pretend world.

[SHemmati]

a lower-average guy in slow-motion school-boy-style grappling with some gym ponies. definitely, no balance, no leverage, no power, no speed, no technique, no tactic, with no body mechanics.

a guy who talks about Shaolin kung fu and still doesn't know what is an arrow stance, doesn't no need to talk more. you haven't learned the first lessons, so stop talking misinformation.

(i didn't mean to say this, but, keep in mind, 'fantasy land' is where somebody with an extremely weak, untrained body like you thinks he knows kung fu fighting.)

[wiz cool c]

Bridges for sale, bridges for sale, get your very own bridge. Notice the guys making theory comments on sparring clips never have any sparring clips of their own. Coincidence?

[wiz cool c]

There are some people still desperately clinging to the untouchable kung fu master myth, unwilling to except the truth. The only secret is sweat and fights never look like kung fu movies. Still wanting to believe you can be a fighting master without getting your hands dirty, and constantly pressure testing your fancy techniques and superior theories.

How many kung fu videos do you see comments like [that wasn’t real kung fu], or they weren’t using kung fu at all, and then start spurting out all the superior fighting theories. Yet there is never a single video showing these theories at work! Yi Long is a tough guy and good fighter, does he look like a kung fu movie fight scene when he fights? He did study at Shaolin, he is a real Shaolin guy, maybe not a monk, there are few if any real monks left here these days[trust me I live with the locals here in Songshan. i know what goes on].

The tai chi MASTER that recently got his butt whip in a match vs an mma guy, who here thinks he didn’t talk about stuff like { he has no root, and he can’t use explosive chi}? The mere fact that this guy thought he could fight against a real fighter in a sport match where ground fighting is allowed should be enough to prove there is a major problem here with theory vs fact issue.

These guys talking the nonsense have no experience in the real world, some of the comment made above show some seriously scary clueless. Phonies, low level, no power. Beijing shuai jiao in Beijing is phony? Wow, judo competition is slow-motion? Wow Thai boxing students can’t fight? wow ,no root yet winning at a tournament where the main objective is to root and uproot your opponent, wow. All this nay saying and yet not a shred of evidence that what you say holds any weight at all.

The guys who talk like this never can fight, I have run across a few before. One time when I was studying shuai jiao in Beijing alongside fulltime shuai jiao players, there was a foreign guy who visited and wanted to train for like a three weeks or a month. He was just there one day jogging at the beginning of a lesson. I knew the coaches would match us up for kicks. So me being the cautious type I talked with him. Asked him if he did shuai jiao or judo before, “no he mentioned, but I study kung fu [forgot which style he said] and we do throws in our system” He seemed pretty confident, my worries had subsided though the second I heard he never did shuai jiao or judo but is a kung fu guy. Later that day sure enough they cleared the mat and called us two up for a match. I threw him several times in the couple of minute we fought, he never got me once, not surprising. He had some size over me too. Why is this story significant? Because I had been busting my butt, wrestling full time shuai jiao guys ten or more years younger than me regularly at the time. How much time do you imagine the traditional kung fu guy spent training his throws with a partner and with resistance in sparring session? Get the point?

Another time when one of my coaches pro MMA fighter and Shuai Jiao champion Yao Honggang[look him up on youtube, he fights all over the world and his bro fought in the ufc], was running his own little class. So this Chinese guy who grew up in Europe would show up every once in a while. We went out drinking together once or twice. He was big on the theory talk too. Always complaining how someone wasn’t real kung fu and how some high level master could destroy everyone, that type of stuff. When I got to spar him in shuai jiao class, I tossed him around as easily as one can toss around a pillow.

Point is you will almost never hear a fighter talk this kind of fallacy. People make negative comments about fighting clips when they feel insecure. I’m going to leave you guys with a quote.

[wiz cool c]

And here it is 10346

[SHemmati]

i don't have any personal interest in this subject, i just care about facts. when there's misinformation, i try to correct it with facts, if any.

first of all, it's not your business whether people know how to fight or not, and i don't care about that. we are not talking about MY skills after all, but YOURS! i said your comment was wrong! and i mean factually wrong. i'll go into details in another thread, i'll explain why.

and, you say 'bridges for sale'! the one who tries to sell people his merchandise is YOU – i mean some books and material you sell – not me, we don't sell anything here and nowhere else. we don't sell any published source here, but you do, that needs qualification. keep in mind, you're not qualified. if there's somebody out there who's gonna teach people, that guy is NOT YOU.

at the end, if you were SMART, when somebody of an unknown height tells you you're wrong, you wouldn't get yourself involved in some efforts of throwing the guilt toward him, in the end, that won't give you any excuse. one who actually knows the stuff, would explain his reason, and won't be afraid of corrections to his knowledge, if any, which i doubt in your case.

[SHemmati]

i wanted to do these in my spare times, not now. but seems we'd better do it now, once and for all.

as you see, i said wiz cool made a mistake here, a misconception, misinformtion, or a misunderstanding you could say, and not only one, but multiple such wrong claims. well, he's not alone, these are famous misconceptions, we see them everywhere. nobody has to be blamed until these misconceptions get factually corrected. we've discussed some of these in the forum, but we have to correct these, all of them far as possible, once and for all.

ok, we'll begin one by one. the first one comes in a few day. let's do it.

[wiz cool c]

This message is hidden because SHemmati is on your ignore list.
View Post
Remove user from ignore list

I can’t, I just can’t, I will join a D&D group or go to a star trek convention if I want to submerge myself in that much fantasy. you take care now;]

[wiz cool c]

Sorry I somehow deleted this clip accidently of me {actually using} what I talk about.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sX5APzLPEXQ

[Cataphract]

This message is hidden because SHemmati is on your ignore list.
View Post
Remove user from ignore list

I can’t, I just can’t, I will join a D&D group or go to a star trek convention if I want to submerge myself in that much fantasy. you take care now;]

I hadn't seen the video and was undecided. But now you start to sound like Hendrik. SHemmati has announced to spill some truth, and your answer with silliness. That's hardly convincing.

[wiz cool c]

Birds of a feature, you guys can believe in the tooth fairy for all I care, I don't have time for the nonsense.

[wiz cool c]

There is no use trying to explain reality to people in such deep rooted denial of what is obvious truth. The rest of the martial art world sees it, but it seems a lot of the people who gravitate toward the Chinese arts, choose them just for this reason. They are attracted to the mystical. There is no problem with that as long as you can distinguish between reality and fantasy. All the colorfully, beautiful and mysterious methods in Chinese kung fu are [drum roll please] nothing more than conditioning. Sorry guys, sorry to dismiss the myth. 10347

[Kellen Bassette]

I hate to comment on a thread that's starting off like this, especially after Plato got dragged into it...but I do agree with the assertion that conditioning is at the very heart of Kung Fu.

[Cataphract]

I hate to comment on a thread that's starting off like this, especially after Plato got dragged into it...but I do agree with the assertion that conditioning is at the very heart of Kung Fu.

And the tooth fairy as well. And I don't even know what this thread is about. I think wiz was debunkingn kung fu movies as unrealistic.

[SHemmati]

if you're wondering, this thread is about wiz cool c's misunderstanding about gong bu (bow and arrow) stance.

it is a general misconception, people think when you transit into arrow stance, you simply bend your front leg and straighten your rear leg. the origin of this confusion is that in most resources, especially the books, they just show the postures with no transitional phase. there is a difference here that most people don't know:

1. competition wushu schools care about performance not forcing. they teach their students to transit to arrow stance very swiftly and skip forcing details. this is faster and saves a lot of time and effort.

2. Shaolin school devises proper transition to provide leverage for maximum power. to form arrow stance, the rear foot first pivots on its toes, then turns to lock the sole to the ground while the knee is straightened, this is to create forward force. this process of transitioning to arrow stance doesn't necessarily need be done from the beginning to the end. meanwhile this transition, in some cases, you may not need additional force or you might have to change the move, so you may need to stop or change to another transition before the sole of your foot gets to touch the ground. it all depends. a stance is not like one steady frame, it has a continuous transition. the transition flow is important as it generates power. you learn the stance, you learn the transition flow until it ends up in the final shape. for example, as mentioned above, in transition to arrow stance, in most cases, the rear leg bends and pivots on its toes, turns until it eds up straightened on the whole sole of the foot.

here, seems like most other people out there, wiz cool c hasn't been taught proper transition and forcing of the stancework in Shaolin forms. he has correctly understood that case 1 above is not practical, but instead thinks that the arrow stance should not end up with the feet soles on the ground! he has mistaken the transitional phase of the stance for the whole process and quite funnily thinks it's all it should end up with, i.e., the stance should stop in the middle of the transition, with a bent rear leg on its toes! he opened this thread by announcing this misunderstanding as his new discovery and denounced forms as teaching impractical stances! :eek:
there are many misconceptions about stances, it needs a dedicated thread.

[YouKnowWho]

The "玉环步(Yu Huan Bu) - monkey stance" is the follow up for the "bow arrow stance". When your opponent moves back and your bow arrow stance can't reach him, you raise your back foot heel, slide forward to get more reach.

10348


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOLcZew8sjM&feature=youtu.be

[wiz cool c]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6J-zEXk3u6cShotokan seem to do a similar revere punch, now I never studied Shotokan, but from the videos of their competition they seem pretty solid in their technique and practical use of them. looks very similar to what I am doing in my clip, minus the upward defecting hand as done in Shaolin kung fu.

There are a couple more issues I would like to point out, that further distinguish between fantasy vs reality.

In the clip I have we are on loss dirt, if the people talking trash had any "experience" ever sparring on such a surface, they would know it is very slippery. That is the main reason I choose to spar that day on it, opposed to the flat sturdy concrete in the front and side of the school. Now if the fantasy based trainers would have had {experience} that is a key word here{experience}sparring on such a surface, they would know this. Point two, it is obvious I am pulling my punches, as all good fighters do in practice. All the Thai boxing and MMA schools I have crossed trained in do the same. You develop your power hitting pads, you can condition your body for contact with two man conditioning drills, and sparring is mostly for practicing timing and distancing.[once in a while you spar hard, not often] Now for some reason these so called kung fu high level experts giving advice on fighting cant tell when someone is going light[sounds pretty suspicious]as anyone from other styles that actually fight would obviously know this. Point three I had reconstructive knee surgery in China without physical therapy after{I'm lucky I'm not a crippled, and still training]. So being that I am 46 sparring big young guys on slippery ground means I have to take extra cautious as well. Does this help any of the reality based members here further understand how delusional some members in the Chinese kung fu community still are?

[Cataphract]

Shotokan seem to do a similar revere punch, now I never studied Shotokan, but from the videos of their competition they seem pretty solid in their technique and practical use of them. looks very similar to what I am doing in my clip, minus the upward defecting hand as done in Shaolin kung fu.


Shotokan teaches straight back leg. He is showing lunged reverse punches. (At 00:51 is a plain gyaku zuki, only that the back foot would be flat on the ground.) The back leg straightens as it accelerates the body and then folds a little when it gets dragged behind. His technique is geared towards point sparring.

[Kellen Bassette]

Shaolin trains forms in the large frame. Like all Kung Fu systems that do this, these are exaggerated mechanics that aren't necessarily going to look the same in live sparring/fighting.

The stance with the raised heel from northern styles is more similar to how you would apply a cross from a boxing or Muay Thai perspective. Of course it also wider and exaggerated as Kung Fu systems tend to train to the extreme to reinforce mechanics and for aesthetic purposes.

The feet remain flat on the ground in the orthodox bow stance because of emphasis on rooting. (I believe one can effectively root while lifting one heel, however.) In application there is always going to be some trade off between power and mobility. I's great if we can sink and plant into a strong stance and wail away with tons of power and root, but if your feet are glued to the ground you are going to get destroyed. On the other hand if your just dancing around in circle and never "sitting" on any of your strikes, you aren't going to generate any real power. The balance between mobility and sinking/rooting/sitting on punches is evident among any high level fighter from any discipline.

That being said, I think the "pose" of many of the traditional stances is a freeze frame of what often happens at the split second of the end of a technique...in these pictures we see what looks an awful lot like a bow stance, but with the back heel raised a bit, as is the reality of chasing an opponent down.

10349

10350

[wiz cool c]

Here are some more clips of myself sparring. I know it is with 16 17 and 18 year olds, but that is what is around me, and hey they are good training partners. Now I'm not saying any of this is ground breaking, but this is applying what you learn not standing around in fancy outfits hiding behind mysterious theories, and I'm too good to get out there and mix it up nonsense.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffTVDJJ07C4&feature=youtu.be

[wiz cool c]

If a UFC fighter is doing it ,you know it's wrong, he's not using traditional theories :D But seriously I agree with what was said above about the stance being the freeze frame of the particular moment in action, as well as all the movements in the form being exenterated for training purposes. Karate fighters, boxers, Thai boxers and sanda fighters all punch with their heal up of their rear foot, but the kung fu forms don't. honestly who would you want to have your back down a dark alley, a Karate fighter, boxer, Thai boxer and sanda fighter or the traditionalist who does the text book front stance in forms practice but obviously never mixes it up like the previously mentioned fighters.

[RenDaHai]

Stance is perhaps the most misunderstood part of Shaolin Kung Fu.

There are many different methods of generating power in traditional Shaolin,

take this form Ti Shou Pao (Rising-Hand-Canon), it uses the dragon riding stance to generate power which relies on the rear foot being heel up. There are plenty of other such stances. Ding Bu Chong Quan, nail step punch is also done by raising the rear heel and using it to pounce forwards, there are many.

Gong bu is just one mechanism that is used.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5b3e_2f46ds&t

[YouKnowWho]

trade off between power and mobility.

Agree! In Baji system, if you are in your

- beginner level training stage and if move your back foot when you punch, you are wrong.
- advance level training stage and if don't move your back foot when you punch, you are wrong.

In other words, the

- beginner level train power generation.
- advance level train mobility.

When you punch your back hand with bow arrow stance, if the distance is too far, you may move into

1. monkey stance,
2. side cat stance,
3. golden rooster stance,
4. stealing step (twist stance).

As for the reach, 4 > 3 > 2 > 1 > bow arrow stance

This thread remind me an old story.

A guy performed his form in front of a Kung Fu teacher. The Kung Fu teacher said, "You have 6 bow arrow stances in your form. when you did your form, all 6 bow arrow stances are all identical." The guy was very happy and thought that was a complement from the Kung fu teacher. All his life, he didn't understand what exactly that Kung Fu teacher was trying to say to him.

What the Kung Fu teacher was trying to say was he didn't understand how to modify his bow arrow stance according to different situations.