arrogance and the internal arts (A strait Rant)

[Daniel Madar]

I got the idea for this post from one of Fu-Pow's quotes of Adam Hsu. I like how Hsu says that you can practice an internal art and yet not be internal. I agree with this 100%.

BUT... What I was originally going to post was a comment about seeing many other people who've been doing internal arts for years, but still don't have internal power. The problem with this is that EVERYONE thinks they have internal power. And the fact that you can practice erroneously for years and never know it is cause for a lot of the smack talk and arrogance that pervades the internal martial arts. ((I'm pretty stuck up about my stuff too, so I can't really talk)). Even if you do get a little internal power, many people feel content to rest on their laurels and lord it over others, rather than digging to the deeper levels.

To make it worse, many internalists come to consider their palms, etc to be "to deadly" to use, or if it comes to push hands, if they are imbalanced will complain about how the other person used "too much li" and didn't follow "the principles". Outside my circle of friends, I've only met one taiji person who's willing to step up and "demonstrate" their internal power, and I've met many.


I am far from a humble person. In reality, I'm a jerk, and I act like it. Even so, this attitude seems pervasive and detrimental to the propagation and survival of internal arts. Even on this board there are people who clearly think that only they have been exposed to the truth of internal power, and there are cleary people who I think are chasing false dragons with complete faith.

Ah, this is more of a diatribe than anything else...

:(

Merciless is Mercy.

[gazza99]

"I am far from a humble person. In reality, I'm a jerk, and I act like it."-D.M.

Thats just a funny quote, even funnier because it applies to me as well sometimes!

Too often we are all to quick to be AS#Hol#S about something when we should just be trying to further ourselves. We just have to keep it real and not let our own skill, or persuit thereof inflate our egos. Its soooo hard though when everyone else just sucks soooo baaddddd...J/K

Gary

"Of course thats just my opinion, I could be wrong"-Dennis Miller
www.pressurepointfighting.com (http://www.pressurepointfighting.com)

[Water Dragon]

You just stated the best reason that exists for full contact competition. It would be so refreshing to see people box with their hands instead of their mouths.

[bamboo_ leaf]

I am just a person, hopefully not a jerk.

But I have a keen interest in really finding and searching for the
ways and people to help me improve my understanding and skill.

Real skill is real skill it stands up on its own this is what I have found.

I think improvement comes from really looking and examining, cutting away until you find it.

many things that sound easy are very, very hard to really do :)

Luck to all on this road

bamboo leaf

www.cyberkwoon.com (http://www.cyberkwoon.com)

[Cody]

I agree, Daniel Madar.
I think it is normal to expect more than the usual degree of arrogance in the martial arts field. It is where you can't hide what you are, and the usual tricks to do so become exaggerated. I used to be annoyed by it, but now accept that these people really don't know what's going on, or seek to dominate and impress others. While to some degree, the attitudes and the choice to impose them on others is their own, teachers can encourage such thinking and acting, by letting it go on, or giving those students authority over others. The people who have been working for years on the same stuff in the same Incomplete way and rave about their prowess provide their bread and butter. It's the plain economic truth. And those who fall for the It takes 20 years blah blah, need to find something to justify all the time and money. It's hard when all one has to show for 10 years of work is some leverage skills (if you're lucky), the appearance of sinking that only goes so far, and a devotion to doing the form. It's not enough, and it shouldn't be.
So, while I too have little patience with this mindset -- that of I know more than you do ya ya yaya; feel my Power..... . -- I think that the way internal arts are sometimes taught (not a reflection on the Knowledge of the Sifu), brings this out without recourse to anything else besides feeling and acting submissive. You can do that for only so long. Some can't do it at all.

The teachers have a responsibility. These arts that they teach are based on real phenomena and they are dangerous. So, the work is presented in such a way as to ensure the highest degree of safety, and a possibility of mastery or real progress along the lines of internal power only if the teacher wants this for a particular student.
Hence, the frustrated student with a big yap.

Cody

[wujidude]

. . . but only after a breakfast burrito with PLENTY of beans . . .

Daniel hit the mark. In all fairness, there are varying degrees of internal power. What I'm still looking to experience, anywhere in the country, is the kind of internal power that shocks and amazes me.

Now, I've come across a point about taijiquan that intrigues me. Hong Junsheng spent the longest time with Chen Fake of any of his Chen style students. Hong spent most of his life in Jinan, Shandong Province, quietly practicing and teaching, with his students and grandstudents doing extremely well in national tuishou competitions in the PRC.

In one of the articles I've read on Hong Junsheng's teaching, he distinguished high-level taijiquan from xingyiquan and baguazhang by stating that taijiquan's primary training aim is to learn to neutralize and turn the opponent's force against them, NOT to develop striking power a la xingyiquan or baguazhang. Now, I don't think that Hong was saying that taijiquan training doesn't develop fajing, only that taijiquan doesn't place as great an emphasis on training fajing as other arts.

Unfortunately, I don't have a reference to that article as I write. Those people who were interested in Fu-Pow's earlier posting of an article on Hong Junsheng might also appreciate this other article by Peter Wu, a student of Hong. It discusses some of his principles, and my observations above make more sense in the context of Wu's article.

http://www.geocities.com/Eureka/4189/hong-v33.html

Chen Zhonghua (Joseph Chen) teaches Hong Junsheng's system in addition to Feng Zhiqiang's system. I for the life of me don't know why he doesn't just go in-depth on Hong's system, as it seems more no-nonsense and focused on practical application. Chen recounts one of his experiences with Hong Junsheng in an article at his website www.hunyuantaiji.com, (http://www.hunyuantaiji.com,) excerpted below:

"When all the joints are moving either in positive or in negative circles, the whole body will become a "gear box". When all the gears in the gear box engage, not one gear can move without involving all of the other gears. When all gears are disengaged, the movement of one gear will not affect the other gears. When one can transform the body into the above described gear box, one will possess the ability of "one part moves, all parts move."

In the summer of 1994, I had a chance to push into Grand Master Hong's chest during a learning session. I issued power suddenly and felt as if my hands had entered a gear box. They were chewed up and thrown out. I was thrown out downward so quickly that upon landing, I hurt my hip. I suffered over ten small fractures to my fingers and wrists and did not completely heal until three months later. The hand injuries were from Master Hong's chest and the hip injury was from my own falling. At the time, Master Hong was 88 years old and was paralyzed from the belt down. He was able to stand on his feet but could not walk."

Something to think about.

[bamboo_ leaf]

Is this the skill we talking about winning full contact competitions?

just wondering.

bamboo leaf
www.cyberkwoon.com (http://www.cyberkwoon.com)

[les paul]

Wujidude wrote:


In the summer of 1994, I had a chance to push into Grand Master Hong's chest during a learning session. I issued power suddenly and felt as if my hands had entered a gear box. They were chewed up and thrown out. I was thrown out downward so quickly that upon landing, I hurt my hip. I suffered over ten small fractures to my fingers and wrists and did not completely heal until three months later. The hand injuries were from Master Hong's chest and the hip injury was from my own falling. At the time, Master Hong was 88 years old and was paralyzed from the belt down. He was able to stand on his feet but could not walk."

End quote:

Stories like this are exactly what is seriously wrong with internal arts. If your reading this and don't understand what I'm talking about, then you need to think long and hard about the many stories like this that abound in internal arts.
Ask your self "do these sound real?"


I'd like someone to give me the final end all to end all answer to the Question" what is internal power?"

I bet no one can

[Daniel Madar]

I can. There is no end all and be all.

Merciless is Mercy.

[les paul]

There was a few posts about full contact fighting/sparring in the internal arts.

I fully support this. full contact fighting would seperate the huksters from the legit.


spanky

[les paul]

Are you sure?

I think you know what it isn't


Don't you?

This is an experiment in who really knows what internalism is.

I'd love to have a legit answer

"if anyone seriously has one?"

[Daniel Madar]

I actually do do some full contact fighting and I'm adding more. Mainly sparring, since people tend to react oddly if you try to join a fighting tournament or MMA thing and say you do taiji. :(


Sometimes though, to get an answer to a question you need to ask the right question. You can't just walk into a room of people and say "Tell me about 'it'!", and expect to get anywhere near the answer you seek. And that's not even considering if anyone in the room knows the answer at all.

I can answer your question like this for example:

Car's are powered by an internal combustion engine that is fueled with gasoline. This fuel tank needs to be refilled on occassion, and the efficiency of the engine varies from car to car.


Oh, wait. I forgot about electrical cars and electrical gas hybrids. Funny, this is harder than it seems...


Merciless is Mercy.

[bamboo_ leaf]

I’ll bite,

IMHO these skills are a completely different set then those required in the ring.

On the other hand most people that I have met are quite happy to let you taste their art outside of one.

As for an answer, I have found the only ones that really matter are those that you answer for yourself

bamboo leaf
www.cyberkwoon.com (http://www.cyberkwoon.com)

[EARTH DRAGON]

On the subject of arroagance, I once heard a chinese quote that blew me away...
The more I learn the less I know....... how true is that?

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[Crimson Phoenix]

Daniel, as usual you hit the right mark...but if I might add, your comment regards ALL martial practice: you can teach something to an ignorant, but you cannot teach anything to someone that is sure he knows...that is why it is said that in martial arts, you should keep a beginner's spirit, because the day you think you know or master something, you stop learning about it...
I totally agree with the saying that you can practice internal arts without being internal...first, the problem lies in these so many "experts" that claim to be experts after one or two years in China. They are the guys plaguing internal arts, the ones that denature taiji and bagua: they bring us practices that have been robbed of their internal and combat content and pass it on, spreading it like a virus...
After one year of observing my bagua teacher (who really emphasizes intention, relaxation, moving as a whole, internal over external etc...) and helped by my experience in external arts, I can see so many bagua or taiji flavoured arts that are in the end empty...some guys do bagua, twist, do fancy moves...but when you look at it, their tailbone pops out, their shoulders raise, their walk is just like everyday walking except it's circular, their techniques are not connected, their body structure isn't set (if I were to push on their arm, the elbow would bend instead of the whole body absorbing the push)...same with taiji...they look like internal arts, but their nature is an ersatz...yet these guys are persuaded they practice a deadly internal art...all they do is practicing an external art with moves copied on the internal ones...All the new students coming to my sifu that claim having practiced internal arts are asked to show their moves...they do and most of the time my sifu tells them they have to forget everything and relearn from the start because their whole form is broken and their ways of moving is not internal, it's like everyday moves...and most of the time they practice a little bit the new things shown, but then revert to their old ways of moving, because it's easier, because they think they are in control...most of the time, they never come back and I suppose they go back to their old schools where they even might be considered senior students...my sifu is too nice (uh, I mean, when he's not after your training heheheheh), he doesn't say anything, but when I see these guys asked to do something and who do it like 3 times then decide they do not like it and revert to their old ways and forms and do what they want my blood boils...what a lack of courtesy, of patience, of dedication...it's an insult to the sifu, and a proof of their emptiness...
Our biggest problem on the way of martial excellence is ego: we cannot truly face our mistakes without feeling uneasy...illusion is much sweeter than harsh truth, being faced with our limits scare us, we close our eyes on them...when events force us to open our eyes, it's tough...lucidity hurts...but growth is the reward...
That is why a nice hard combat is good: you know that if you miss this block, you'll take the blow...when you just bock the air or a cooperative partner it's just not the same...
Gosh, I'd better stop the rambling now :-)

[HuangKaiVun]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EARTH DRAGON:
On the subject of arroagance, I once heard a chinese quote that blew me away...
The more I learn the less I know....... how true is that?

[/quote]


Not true AT ALL, in my opinion.

In the internal arts and kung fu in general, one never stops learning. The reserve of knowledge does not go DOWN as one adds to it via training. Otherwise why train if downhill is the only way to go?

Certainly training opens one's eyes to an ever-increasing realm of possibilities, hence the "less I know" part. It's all about semantics to me.


There are many people who practice with 100% intent to varying levels of success for whatever reason.

The true internal stylist accepts this and uses his observations to make HIMSELF a better martial artist.

[wujidude]

With respect to Chen Zhonghua's recollection of an incident involving his Chen style taijiquan teacher Hong Junsheng, Spanky wrote:

>Stories like this are exactly what is seriously wrong with internal arts. If your reading this and don't understand what I'm talking about, then you need to think long and hard about the many stories like this that abound in internal arts.
Ask your self "do these sound real?"<

Well, actually, Spanky, it does sound quite real to me. In fact, it sounds a whole lot more credible to me than kneejerk cynicism, which is as much of a barrier to the serious study of the internal martial arts as New Age mysticism. The reason Chen Zhonghua's account sounds credible to me is that I've met him and he exhibits a degree of the same skill when pushed. I've met his current teacher Feng Zhiqiang, and he shows even more skill in neutralizing attacks of the kind Chen Zhonghua described. I think if I had made a more serious, focused attack on Feng Zhiqiang I probably would have been shocked and amazed.

The reason serious students aspire to mastery of taijiquan is because of real incidents like Chen Zhonghua described. Again, your own experience may be very limited in that regard, but don't totally discount the experience of others. Such skill may be rare, but that's why they're called "masters".

[Water Dragon]

The more I learn the less I know....... how true is that?

It's very true. The more time you have in, the more of an understanding you get. You start to pick up on all the little things you never noticed before. After a while you realize you're never gonna get it.

But that's OK. Because by this time you can knock the hell out of people if you train hard. The less you know just gives you more to train.

[EARTH DRAGON]

I think you misunderstand the meaning of the quote. It is saying that the more you learn about yourself and what you are doing, the more you didnt really know that much about your self and what you thought you were doing.
In other words you train to be good at something and then just when you think you know it all and that you are good, someone proves you wrong by showing you a better way. ie a master showing you the same tecnhnique that you have done 1000's of times an he shows you once and you now understand it better.
That is what is called a humbling experience and if you think that you know it everything then actually you know nothing.
I once had a student that street fought all his life and he always said; that he was the toughest guy he knew, I said then you dont know many people do you.
I have talked with a lot of people on this board who indeed are true martial artists, and I have also talked with people on this board who's ego was filled more than their notebook. Have you had the pleasure of looking at the main forum page topics yet? these kids talk out their a** and brag about alot of nothing and then post topics like who would win in a fight? the guy from my video game or bruce lee. But yet they question peoples knowledge and experience! I once had a rant with some kid that insisted that its done his way only and that I was wrong and didnt know what I was talking about, I said how long have you been doing that in your training he said I have been training for almost 6 months now. After laughing outloud I didnt have the heart to tell him that My training years are 4 years older than his age on this earth but I realized that you cannot win internet arguments with uneducated or know it alls, cause to them you are WRONG and thats it!.. so when I realized this the more that I learn the less I know quote fits like a glove.

URL=http://www.kungfuUSA.net]http://www.kungfuUSA.net[/URL]

[This message was edited by EARTH DRAGON on 11-15-01 at 08:22 PM.]

[Kaitain(UK)]

funny how everyone is convinced they are receiving the true transmission

I can't imagine anyone not believing that and still training...

"If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?"

[Water Dragon]

Not me, I'm not convinced of anything. I need to have it proven to me, either by feeling the power or trying it out in the ring. It keeps me honest.

[honorisc]

The more I learn ... the more I realize I don't know.

"The more I learn the less I know....... how true is that?"

I think the intention was what I wrote-ish.

It relates to, when you find out something new, you realize that there might be more than you thought. And the more often you get something new you might get the comprehension that there's a lot you don't know. By the time~ that you Are a master you've consigned yourself to the belief or understanding that you Don't Know (much of (Anything))comparatively. From a womb to a room to out doors (forest or radius of one city block) to the country to to continent, to the world, to the solar system to the, galaxy to all of Space to the mind.There seems to be a pattern of More being beyond what gets to be Known. And every time you gain new know, it is usually merely an aspect (relevantly small aspect) of all that has to do with the new, each new. So (needle and thread), the phrase as I understood was closer to the original of what was recently brought-up here on page two of this thread is something more like, "the more one knows; the more one realizes that that one doesn't know (anything)" Likely spoken in the first person.

"I'd like someone to give me the final end all to end all answer to the Question" what is internal power?"

I bet no one can"

Internal power--Breathing with Will; movement is breath. Barely breathing.-by Ernie Moore Jr.

Not that you agree that I did it, you might not could tell if it was correct as end all any way. But Keep your money, I don't bet. Yes, you didn't say money. Merely so to speak (shake-a-can).

Very some such, perhaps might have been, likely say some, some not.

[This message was edited by No_Know on 11-16-01 at 09:08 AM.]

[bamboo_ leaf]

I think these two points of view offer a good way to understand how we look at things and understand based on present experience and level.

I would be very interested in hearing how this is possible or impossible?
-------------------------------------------------
In the summer of 1994, I had a chance to push into Grand Master Hong's chest during a learning session. I issued power suddenly and felt as if my hands had entered a gear box. They were chewed up and thrown out. I was thrown out downward so quickly that upon landing, I hurt my hip. I suffered over ten small fractures to my fingers and wrists and did not completely heal until three months later. The hand injuries were from Master Hong's chest and the hip injury was from my own falling. At the time, Master Hong was 88 years old and was paralyzed from the belt down. He was able to stand on his feet but could not walk."
End quote:

“Stories like this are exactly what is seriously wrong with internal arts. If your reading this and don't understand what I'm talking about, then you need to think long and hard about the many stories like this that abound in internal arts. Ask your self "do these sound real?" “
--------------------------------------------------

I think the event was real but the explanation reflects a point of view that may not explain what really happened in a way that most would accept.

Again taking this event how do you think it happened?


This is another story that some may have heard:

Short version: a famous TC master gets challenged by a local (wrestling type) style master. He said something to the effect that TC is not real and doesn’t work.

They grasped each other’s arms, after a couple of minuets each laughed and the match was over.
A student of the TC later asked the wrestler what happened. The wrestler said something like “when I held his arms his chi was so strong there was nothing I could do, we both knew it and just laughed it off” the same student again asked his TC teacher about it. The teacher said, “ at the first touch we both knew he couldn’t do anything, he is also a master there was no need to go further”

So what happened? My view would be that the wrestler had no place to apply his force, the TC master was rooted more then him and he cut the wrestlers root in effect he was floating.

Or he was so rooted that his peng was to strong for the wrestler to deal with.

Which idea is more in line with your own thoughts?

Others might have a more in-depth idea?

:)

bamboo leaf

[HuangKaiVun]

"Certainly training opens one's eyes to an ever-increasing realm of possibilities, hence the "less I know" part. It's all about semantics to me. "

As you can see, Earth Dragon, nothing you posted I am in disagreement with.

[honorisc]

There's a story of a T'ai Chi Ch'uan type master who demonstrated by taking a bird in his hand. The bird could not fly away although it was trying to fly. The master was so supple that the bird could not get the footing to push-off to take flight, from the master's hand.

According to those stories, theoretically, in the first one the master used an adhering strength (pores breathe, as in, take in air, perhaps there can be a manipulation to form a suction, even outside of the clothes/through clothes). That, with the shifting of soft and hard anywhere on the body with someone pressing; shifting the hard/soft rightly might damage the fingers at the joints at least. A shifting of weight is what T'ai Chi Ch'uan does with the purpose of off balancing Sometimes to the effect of seeming to have thrown-off or thrown-down. That he didn't fall good, welllllll, that's that.

"Short version: a famous TC master gets challenged by a local (wrestling type) style master. He said something to the effect that TC is not real and doesn’t work.

They grasped each other’s arms, after a couple of minuets each laughed and the match was over.
A student of the TC later asked the wrestler what happened. The wrestler said something like “when I held his arms his chi was so strong there was nothing I could do, we both knew it and just laughed it off” the same student again asked his TC teacher about it. The teacher said, “ at the first touch we both knew he couldn’t do anything, he is also a master there was no need to go further”

So what happened? My view would be that the wrestler had no place to apply his force, the TC master was rooted more then him and he cut the wrestlers root in effect he was floating.

Or he was so rooted that his peng was to strong for the wrestler to deal with."

P'eng (ward off?) might indicate resistance. Resistance the wrestler could work with. So it must be something else. Cutting the root? A T'ai Chi Ch'uan master doesn't need to move their feet to move someone. Cutting off the root of the wrestler is unnecessary. I have the impression that they doinn't really move. Like the bird, the wrestler couldn't get a grasp even though holding on. Grasping being the doorway to wrestling, the wrestler realized it wasn't going to work. And was amused. The T'ai Chi Ch'uan master knew what he was doing. Knew that it was working. And was pleased it was working and that an equal (in training (though a different discipline)/dedication...) was suprisingly educated. It's amusing when you're good and see there's more than you thought there was.~

On the second story, if there was floating he could be moved but no one was knocked down.

Reading it again I'm thinking that the wrestler couldn't move the arms. And a strong, leverage person being unable to move the arms of an apparantly not as strong person teaching a real world physical confrontation art that is practically worthless. Would be friendly amusement to masters.

Very some such, perhaps might have been, likely say some, some not.

[les paul]

Wujidude

Sorry I just don't believe your story.

Did you witness this yourself? Did you push hands with someone and their chi "damage" your hands?

Or was their skill level above yours and you were neutralized and injured your hands when you hit the floor?

Its happened to me, but it wasn't chi that did it. (It was my opponent’s superior skill and my self that injured me)


After twenty years I've seen chi, but I never known anyone to have Chi that strong.

I think what's happening in these stories and others posted, is that the persons high level of skill is being mistaken for "mystical chi" or Star Wars' the Force! "Yes, it does exist, this isn't an argument against the reality of chi"

I just question a lot of these stories. In my youth, having lived with some "Han" Chinese, I
Know how they like to embellish the truth like everyone else. "****!" Everyone does, "especially Americans."

Was Paul Bunyan true?

Where are these great exponents of Chi and how come we have never seen anyone of them fighting professionally? In the modern age?

Huh?

We all know the real reasons why we don't see them?

I'm not saying some couldn't, I believe some have the skill.........notice I said "skill."

If you read carefully into these stories, you can get a glimpse of the real truth.

For example, Tai Chi magazine recently did a special on Chen Fa-ke and it talks about him doing push hands with a master of Wu style Taiji.

If you read in-between the line of the stories you come to understand: A) Chen Fa-ke practiced a much more reality based Tuo shou than the Wu style master "faster and harder. B) Chen Fa-Ke practiced much more rigorously and more numerous than the Wu stylist. "Where was the Chi in this story?"

I say this not because I have a disdain for internal arts, Nay, I highly respect them (life long student of mainly Xingyiquan and a little Yang style Taijiquan) I poo poo stories like the one you gave (and others given by other people) because most are un-true or can't be proven. Plus you can't fight/defend yourself with chi alone. Secondly, only hard work increases your abilities.

Internal arts are great! To me they are probably the most efficient and well thought out martial systems of self defense and self-cultivation ever created.

I believe only through sweat and hard work (like sparring etc. can these be realized.

[Water Dragon]

The Spankster is correct

[Fu-Pow]

I believe that the stories about Taiji masters refer to

Chen Fake and Yang Luchan respectively.

I think both of them refer to the ability to make someone float. It is basically sticking with them, but not giving them anything to push against. I don't know how to do it though.

Fu-Pow

http://www.geocities.com/fu_pow/vmrc-halloween-3.jpg


http://www.makskungfu.com/images/Graphics/Choy%20Lay%20Fut%20red.gif

[gano_b]

You asked a couple of questions...

"Was Paul Bunyan true?"

No, neither was his blue ox.

"Where are these great exponents of Chi and how come we have never seen anyone of them fighting professionally? In the modern age?"

You said that you studied Hsing-i for awhile. Now I have a question. At what point did you ever have a Shrfu that gave two flips about "competition"? If this competition exsisted, what would the rules be?

If you want to know where the "great exponents" of Chi are currently, they're probably off swinging bricks somewhere.

;)

"There is no try...do, or do not."

[Daniel Madar]

I have to take issue with the stories of Chen Fa-Ke published in Tai Chi mag.

There are two in particular I have problems with.

The first one states that Chen Fa Ke used to practice the form 60 times a day. The Lao Jia forms take 20 to 30 minutes to complete, last time I watched. If it's 30 minutes, that means that Chen Fa Ke practiced 30 hours a day...

The second refers to a high level wu stylist being surprised by the speed at which Chen Fa Ke performed his form. The Wu Fast form was a secret for some time, but I've been told by my teacher, who was a disciple when it was still a secret that disciples were taught it. So how high a level was this wu stylist really?

With stories of old masters, you really do have to read between the lines. Not to take anything away from Chen Fa Ke, though.

The best story in that whole article was the one where a student asked Chen Fa Ke about his ancestor who had such strong sticking power he could pick up a table with his palm. Chen replied something to the effect that if he spent all his time reading stories and worrying if he'd ever get that strong, he'd never have time to practice.

Merciless is Mercy.

[PlasticSquirrel]

i think that chen fake practiced laojia yilu in around 10-15 minutes. pretty fast. that would still take 15 hours a day, which would only leave 9 hours for laojia erlu and weapons. ;)

i'm not so sure about the story about yang jianhou and the sparrow. although it might... might be possible, it is probably just a story that came from the famous movements of "grasp the sparrows tail." it is certainly a very old story, though, dating back probably not long after yang jianhou died.

[les paul]

posted 11-16-01 02:19 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gano-B
wrote:


You said that you studied Hsing-i for awhile. Now I have a question. At what point did you ever have a Shrfu that gave two flips about "competition"? If this competition exsisted, what would the rules be?

If you want to know where the "great exponents" of Chi are currently, they're probably off swinging bricks somewhere.

End quote:

My Sifu cared a lot for competition, as long as it was healthy and productive.

I can name many others that cared for competition too. In order to perfect your skills you need realty based training.

However you raise a good point about "what would the rules be?" Yes, I agree most internal arts have techniques that do not lend themselves well to sport.

None the less with the proper equipment, reality based training can be achieved.

Reading mystical stories about masters does not make me better, hard work does.

[gano_b]

I agree with you on the hard training, and we can agree to disagree on competition. I personally am a big fan of sparring, I think it is an absolute necessity in training, but I disagree with competition. I don't care about trophies and awards, I don't have an "I love me" wall at home, nor does our Kwoon. The last thing on my mind durring training is going to some tournament or some other form of competition. I have fantasy football for that! ;)

I did enjoy your response though, and I see where your coming from. We are just opposite ends of the spectrum. Also, I don't buy into all of the myths of the great exponents of chi, I do, however, believe that many things are achieved through the cultivation of said chi.

Good talking to you.

"There is no try...do, or do not."

[honorisc]

"I think what's happening in these stories and others posted, is that the persons high level of skill is being mistaken for "mystical chi" or Star Wars' the Force! "Yes, it does exist, this isn't an argument against the reality of chi""

The people who called it mystical, likely were the people trying to sway people into disbelieving in what has been referred to as Ch'i. Ch'i it's self is not a skill. It is the use of ch'i within the body that allows for various levels of, some skills.


"Where are these great exponents of Chi and how come we have never seen anyone of them fighting professionally? In the modern age?

Huh?"

They are drinking tea. They are enjoying a meal. They are laughing with old friends they are running resteraunts or mercantile shops. They are heading Kung_Fu schools waiting for a sincere and dedicated and willing pupil to go throught the hardships they mete, to become the master they have become (though itmight be a master of a different discipline (depending on the sincere student's gift). Sincere does not mean paid-up through next month.

Very some such, perhaps might have been, likely say some, some not.

[wujidude]

Spanky wrote:

>nothin but stories

Wujidude
Sorry I just don't believe your story.<

I don't give a flying f___ what you believe, Spanky. It's your life. It's not my responsibility to convince you.

>Did you witness this yourself?<

Uh, no . . . if you read the article, Chen Zhonghua reported it. Chen was a student of Hong Junsheng, and later of Feng Zhiqiang.

>Did you push hands with someone and their chi "damage" your hands? Or was their skill level above yours and you were neutralized and injured your hands when you hit the floor?<

Again, Spanky, Chen Zhonghua reported this incident. I've met Chen Zhonghua, and he has a very good skill level in tuishou and application. It would've taken someone of vastly superior skill to have done what Hong did with Chen.

>Its happened to me, but it wasn't chi that did it. (It was my opponent’s superior skill and my self that injured me)<

That's all that Chen Zhonghua said happened here. Hong Junsheng didn't teach that the cultivation of qi was essential to the development of high skill in taijiquan. As a matter of fact, according to both Chen and Peter Wu, Hong didn't refer to qi at all in training the taijiquan solo forms and push-hands drills. Hong believed in diligent, correct practice as the key--the only "secret"--to practical ability in taijiquan.

Hong taught various drills and patterns from the taijiquan solo form to train the ability to use the joints and structure of one's body to adhere to, neutralize and return the opponent's incoming force at just the right angle to off-balance and send them flying. The taijiquan practitioner's own strength could be added to it, but development of power like that was not the primary emphasis of Hong's form training. He specifically distinguished his method of taijiquan from xingyi and bagua by noting the higher emphasis in the those arts on independent training of fajing. Hong was more concerned with development of neutralizing/hua skill, which he felt was the distinctive feature of taijiquan.


>After twenty years I've seen chi, but I never known anyone to have Chi that strong.<

Maybe that's because you've been limited in who you've encountered. Either out of lack of desire, or blinded by skepticism, or bad timing, you apparently haven't sought out the more highly-skilled masters. Don't judge the abilities of the world by your own limited experience.

IN ANY EVENT, QI ISN'T THE ISSUE WITH HONG JUNSHENG. Or, for that matter, with me. ;- )

>I think what's happening in these stories and others posted, is that the persons high level of skill is being mistaken for "mystical chi" or Star Wars' the Force! "Yes, it does exist, this isn't an argument against the reality of chi"<

Neither Hong nor Chen Zhonghua made that mistake.

>I just question a lot of these stories.<

D'oh.

>In my youth, having lived with some "Han" Chinese, I
Know how they like to embellish the truth like everyone else. "****!" Everyone does, "especially Americans."

Was Paul Bunyan true?

Where are these great exponents of Chi and how come we have never seen anyone of them fighting professionally? In the modern age?

Huh?

We all know the real reasons why we don't see them?

I'm not saying some couldn't, I believe some have the skill.........notice I said "skill."<

So who is your point directed to? Hong's great skill at taijiquan, obtained through his own persevering practice and intelligent training, was Chen Zhonghua's main point.


>For example, Tai Chi magazine recently did a special on Chen Fa-ke and it talks about him doing push hands with a master of Wu style Taiji.

If you read in-between the line of the stories you come to understand: A) Chen Fa-ke practiced a much more reality based Tuo shou than the Wu style master "faster and harder. B) Chen Fa-Ke practiced much more rigorously and more numerous than the Wu stylist. "Where was the Chi in this story?"<

Ummm . . . where did Peter Wu in that article (it was actually a series of articles over three issues, if you read through them all)ever ascribe either Chen Fake's abilities or Hong Junsheng's abilities to qi? Man I wish you would learn to pay attention to what you read, instead of jumping to conclusions after the first paragraph.

Peter Wu's tales of Chen Fake are based mostly on Hong Junsheng's reporting (Hong published a book which included a biographical sketch of Chen Fake). Neither Wu nor Hong ever ascribe Chen Fake's skill level to deliberate qi cultivation.

>I say this not because I have a disdain for internal arts, Nay, I highly respect them (life long student of mainly Xingyiquan and a little Yang style Taijiquan)<

"Nay"? Please leave the Shakespeare behind. "Lifelong student of xingyiquan"--you started in utero? "A little Yang style taijiquan"? Umm . . . taijiquan is quite different from xingyiquan, in training and in principles. "A little Yang style" will most likely mislead you as to what taijiquan, or certainly Chen style taijiquan, can do.

In any event, xingyiquan, baguazhang and taijiquan were never described as of the same family (the so-called "neijia")or exhibiting the same principles until Cheng Tinghua and his xingyi and taiji buddies in Tianjin decided to encourage cross-training of their students around 1894, and the promotion of these "neijia" arts as belonging to the same family and set of principles can really be blamed on Cheng's bagua student, Sun Lutang, and his incredibly vacuous and rambling theoretical writings (his form descriptions are much clearer).

>I poo poo stories like the one you gave (and others given by other people) because most are un-true or can't be proven.<

Yeah, hard to rouse up a long-dead person like Chen Fake or Hong Junsheng to get up and satisfy your terminal skepticism. History is like that, Spanky. The anecdotes that Hong Junsheng relates are not otherworldly, do not depend on a belief in qi, and are at least as reliable as, say, the evidence that Lee Harvey Oswald assassinated John F. Kennedy. I hope you don't wait until a fist smacks you in the face before you believe it's coming at you.

In any event, show me how you conduct a randomized double-blind study of taijiquan applications. Like most people who get hung up on the reality of qi rather than demonstrations of practical skills, you seem to aspire to the standard of sheltered, highly-ordered laboratory environments. Hong and Chen both conducted spontaneous trials of their skills against random, martially-respected opponents. Chen's great line (to me), as reported by Hong, was in response to the shuai-jiao wrestler Shen, who asked how a taijiquan master would handle a skilled wrestler--something to the effect that in real life one can't choose what style the opponent will attack with.

>Plus you can't fight/defend yourself with chi alone.<

Your point? Hong didn't rely on qi.

>Secondly, only hard work increases your abilities.<

D'oh. That seems to me to be what "gong fu" means. Or rather, hard, persevering, intelligent, correct practice/work. Blind repetitive incorrect practice can injure or kill you.

>Internal arts are great! To me they are probably the most efficient and well thought out martial systems of self defense and self-cultivation ever created.<

I'm glad ya like 'em. Now give them the effort they deserve and seek out the most highly-skilled teachers and practitioners you can before you go dissing the history.

>I believe only through sweat and hard work (like sparring etc. can these be realized.<

I'm pretty sure Hong Junsheng and Chen Fake would agree with you.

DANIEL:

Hong Junsheng was a newbie to taijiquan when he encountered Chen Fake. By his own account, he had only studied Wu Jianquan's style with Liu Musan for a few months when Liu invited Chen to demonstrate his art. So it's no wonder that Hong was surprised at the speed and tempo changes and fajing in Chen's form, since in all likelihood Hong had only seen the long, slow form of Wu Jianquan by which beginners are introduced to the art.

As far as Wu's "fast form"--keep in mind that it's Ma Yuehliang who said that Wu Jianquan's slow form developed from the fast form. Wu's father, Chuan Yu (student of Yang Luchan and Yang Banhou), taught Wang Maozhai and others besides his own son Jianquan. Wang Maozhai's teachings (passed down in Beijing by Yang Yuting and others as the so-called "northern Wu" style)apparently did not include a "fast form"--you can check with David Dolbear at www.northernwu.com (http://www.northernwu.com) or Zhang Yun, student of Wang Peisheng,at http://www.geocities.com/ycgf/YCGF.htm

In any event, here's a sort-of-related question I've always wondered about: was Chen Fake's arrival in Beijing in 1928 purely coincidental with Wu Jianquan's and Yang Chengfu's departure for wealthy patrons in Shanghai that same year--or was it the cause of their departure? I haven't found any reference indicating that Chen Fake ever encountered Wu Jianquan or Yang Chengfu, let alone crossed hands with them. It just makes me wonder that Wu and Yang wouldn't have sought out a master of the acknowledged parent (or one of them)art of their taijiquan.

As far as Liu Musan (Hong Junsheng's Wu style teacher)goes, much if not most of the senior Wu style talent left Beijing in 1928 with Wu Jianquan. The push-hands practice of the Wu Jianquan and "northern Wu" stylists by that point had become rather stylized, since most of their customers were effete intelligentsia or government officials or wealthy merchants needing to nourish their health and feel a connection with legendary tough guys and Taoists. Chen shi tuishou is a much more rough-and-ready energetic training practice, with much more grappling in proportion to the light-pressure pushing in Wu style tuishou. It's no surprise to me that Chen moved Liu around easily, disrupting the patterns Liu was used to. At the same time, it would be a mistake to conclude that Liu would not have been skilled in actual application, or that under the rules of engagement in Wu style tuishou, Liu would not have acquitted himself better. Liu was a true master in the sense of recognizing superlative skill, however, and (according to Hong)didn't try to stop his students from studying with Chen. Liu continued to teach Wu style, what he knew best.

[Daniel Madar]

Every thing aside, I was merely pointing out, as did Peter Wu himself, that several of the stories may have been exagerrated. You can specifically reference the whole issue of the "size of the dog" to see that.

As for Northern Wu, Southern Wu and Shanghai Wu, you are right, Southern and Northern Wu do not seem to have a fast form. I was unaware of this until after I posted the aforementioned information. As to why or why not, to be honest, any guesses on our part are simply conjecture, and as such should be left alone. Until recently, I had no wish or desire to learn more about the Wu divisions, being happy with my own, and not desiring to mess with politics.

Thanks to Bamboo Leaf however, I met a Southern Wu stylist just recently, and enjoyed the experience greatly, so it has perked my curiousity.

Thanks for the info on Northern Wu. I just read it (This is an edit) and now I remember why I don't really care about lineages, or crap like that too much. I've never read a site that site "My teacher sucked, but he had a good heart, so I decided to study under him, even though he learned from a drunken homeless guy". Not that Northern Wu said anything of the sort, but I just don't care for justifications and lineages too much anymore. Wu seems to have a lot of that, unfortunately. Chen's too busy claiming that it's the original, Yang is too busy saying they don't suck and can fight, Sun is to busy crowing about Sun Lu Tang being great at everything, and if you can find a Hao stylist other than me, you'll find that "there's a big difference between authentice wu yu hsiang, and what Hao Wei Zhen did".

Pet peeves, pet peeves.

Anyway, it's no big deal.

I'm still sticking with Chen Fa Ke's alleged comment.

Practice is better than stories.

Merciless is Mercy.

[This message was edited by Daniel Madar on 11-20-01 at 05:07 PM.]

[les paul]

First

Gano-B

I also have a huge disdane for awards, trophies or even rankings. They mean nothing to others. Sincerity and honesty are what matters to people. So, what I ment by "healthy compitition", I meant any training that revolves around this.(with Sincerity and honesty). This come through by fully respecting your training partners. However, sometimes this can be really brutal or blunt for everyone. I do admit from time to time I like to do a tourney or two, but I don't judge others that do not.

What I was judging was the typical internal arts kwoon that does nothing but short forms and no real sweating. (i.e. training you know... bodies flipping, people punching, people rolling around on the mats. etc etc etc Things soccer moms and dads usally don't do.)

Unfortunatly this notion of soccer mom or dad is stereotyped as your typical Internal artist.

If you find me guilty of believing this stereotype. I say I'm guity as charged! for this I apologize

As long as you practice compitition with sincerity and honesty and respect you have done your best!

Next:


Kn_know

Your right! some of the best do nothing but live thier lives to the fullest and are not interested in fighting profesionally.

If you noticed, I said there are internal artists out there that have the skill to fight pro but choose not to for whatever reasons. I was commenting on how these people have gotten the skill with hard work not believing in mystical stories about qi.

Now for Wujidude

Spanky wrote:
>nothin but stories

Wujidude
Sorry I just don't believe your story.<

I don't give a flying f___ what you believe, Spanky. It's your life. It's not my responsibility to convince you.


Judging by your response "maybe YOU DO!"

It(your response) was so long I couldn't read it.

But I think you said you didn't witness this story? "is that correct?"

Didn't you?

This proved the point I was trying to make.
i.e. (that most of these stories can not be proven and should not be taken seriously)

Yea I was harsh in my respose to your post, however I'm not slamming your character. Heck, I agreed with your response in another thread. I'm just stating my point here. And as far as me not meeting anyone with an incredible level of qi "your right!"

I haven't yet, but I've met some really good solid people who have a lot of knowledge and skill.

I believe real skill comes from hard work. I believe people are chasing their tales if they are seeking some way of developing qi to a level where they can use it offensivly without learning actual fighting skills. So many external martial artist laugh at the notion that Qi can do what some internal artist claim. You can't learn martial skills by pole standing or forms alone.


"It just can't be done."


I believe some of these stories "sometimes" hint that the practioner somehow has obtained some special power that is exclusive to his or her style.

Rubbish!!!

To new students of internal arts who read these stories many of them go down the wrong path.

The real path to mastery is through simple hard work!

Nothin mystical or special about it!

Wuijidude

This is the point I was making when I commented on your story.






Spanky has left the house!

[This message was edited by Don't call me spanky! on 11-24-01 at 04:54 PM.]

[This message was edited by Don't call me spanky! on 11-24-01 at 04:58 PM.]

[This message was edited by Don't call me spanky! on 11-24-01 at 04:59 PM.]

[This message was edited by Don't call me spanky! on 11-24-01 at 05:01 PM.]