Yi Quan Explosion Power: What'd you guys think about this?

[Fu-Pow]

http://www.yichuankungfu.com/video.htm

Looks pretty fakey to me. :rolleyes:

Fu-Pow

http://www.geocities.com/fu_pow/vmrc-halloween-3.jpg


http://www.makskungfu.com/images/Graphics/Choy%20Lay%20Fut%20red.gif

[Daniel Madar]

Things like that you have to see live, or experience yourself.

One of the things that struck me the most about the Sept 11, is this... In the movies, when **** goes to hell, people just running shrieking like the devil is after them. In real life, when the towers came down, some people just kind of trotted and looked back.

Just goes to show you, what you expect to see and what something looks like in real life aren't always the same.

Merciless is Mercy.

[gazza99]

Most of the clips look as though the students purposely jump back after he moves, perhaps some power is being issued, but one of their foots move back, and then they jump off of the other foot, I dont see how any power could displace the person and cause them to jump, clearly some are not uprooting techniques. Perhaps they in fact are being caused to move back a bit, then they spring off the other foot for effect?
I find If I use an-jing, people dont jump back, they are simply thrown back really quickly and loose balence or hit the wall, or tremble a bit in pain and stumble back. But either they are too hurt or too off balence to spring up like the students did in his demo. But he could be for real and just really really good, Id have to touch hands with the man to know for sure, but the above is my only hypothesis based on comparison, but I am no Master.....
The last clip looks legit, I can do the same thing to people, its just connecting the their root and putting them of balence. Or blending with their motion and putting them off. Not hard at all.

"Of course thats just my opinion, I could be wrong"-Dennis Miller
www.pressurepointfighting.com (http://www.pressurepointfighting.com)

[This message was edited by Gary on 11-16-01 at 05:46 PM.]

[Water Dragon]

I've felt it from Fong Ha. I was pushing his arm. It feels like you're pushing a spring, and then it just recoils and you bounce back. It's friggin' weird. I'm not sure how it would be used in fighting though.

[gazza99]

But did it force you to jump like that?
Correction on last post you connect to their center not root to put them off balence..

"Of course thats just my opinion, I could be wrong"-Dennis Miller
www.pressurepointfighting.com (http://www.pressurepointfighting.com)

[bamboo_ leaf]

Think of it as suddenly falling and then jumping back to stop the fall. As this happens you add to it as much or little as you want.

most people don't feel what is happening depends on your lisitining skills (ting jing)


This is very good, and kinda of illustrates what I was getting at.

What I see is some one with a very strong peng jing, and YI .
His peng presents something to push against. He collapses this using his mind YI.
The others YI falls into this collapse, they can’t help but spring back.

He follows with his YI reinforcing their energy in moving back.

I have felt this type of energy you end up jumping or moving back because your body thinks its falling (the best way I can explain it)

WD, as for fighting this process can happen to send you back or really shock your body. again if you can hear his YI then this won't work on you.

Gary, you already can do this it’s just not done the way your thinking it’s done.
Try it.

Have some one press you, when you can really feel their YI collapse your peng.

If you can do this they will fall in the direction of the collapse.
The hard part is not to lose contact and stick / add to as they move back, you should feel like your using almost no force or energy at this point both feet should be off the ground and they should be moving back. remember most of the energy is theirs you must have a very strong YI to follow.

Remember to stop their movement they could get hurt. :)

very intresting
very enjoyable !!

bamboo leaf

[This message was edited by bamboo_ leaf on 11-16-01 at 07:19 PM.]

[gazza99]

Thanks bamboo: ahh, ok, I see how that is feasible now, Ill try tommorow with some training parteners, it just seems the jump back is exagerated a bit. Interesting...It could be combat effective if of course you follow the off balance opponent. "stick to without letting go"
Gary

"Of course thats just my opinion, I could be wrong"-Dennis Miller
www.pressurepointfighting.com (http://www.pressurepointfighting.com)

[Xebsball]

I had seen those videos, but i was wainting for someone from a internal style to say if its real or not.
Seems like you people belive its posible, wich sounds great :)

-------------------------
"I AM EFFECTIVNESS"

[Kumkuat]

hmmm... the jump back seems a little over done. What baffles me is that Cheuk Fung doesn't move at all when he sends them flying back (that is if he's doing it for real).

[bamboo_ leaf]

I think we are talking about degrees of levels.
Shen (sprit) YI(mind) Chi(energy) LI (strength)

Depends where your at, it looks fake and maybe the students know what to expect so they tend to control what’s happing even though they can’t stop it.

you may not belive the higher the level of person the less outer movement. Remain a skeptic this is good. when you have a chance to feel this you will tresure the moment becasue then you will really know. :)

The higher the level the less the movement. As for combat apps. I think the movement can be very condensed instead of allowing the movement to carry it can also be used to break or compress.


Again he can do these things because his level is much higher then his students, also they use force giving him something to work with. If they didn’t use force and could listen then he might not be able to do this.

People who play push hands will understand.
Its not about pushing!!

we talked about fa-jing in another thread, depending on your Yi to Chi usage will determine your concept of this.

Geary, if you are able to do this you will see the effectivness, just remember to catch them and don't add to much :)

this is why i come here to here to share and listen. none of it is esay :)

bamboo leaf

[gazza99]

Will do bamboo :)

Ive always been told the less you see on the outside the more thats going on in the inside, the more I train and progress the more I find this to be true.
Especially in accual combat application, for ex. gross movements are rather innefective compared to small frame explosive movements. I can generate much more power from a shorter distance now than I could have ever done from a reverse like punch. If I punch really close like 1 inch or less is does not look like ive done much, however the bag or person flies as a result, I can see how if someone veiwed a clip this could look faked,,hence why I do not demo accual fa-jing on my website, in a few years perhaps, its just one of those things you must see/feel in person to really believe.
Ive also been told If you see a Taiji instructor always doing his form large frame and always with wide stances, then he is a begginer still. I find that with my old yang form for example, a few years ago doing it large frame felt good, natural and helpfull, now I must do it much smaller frame to get a better feel from it, also incorporating fa-jing movements to release qi at certain postures is more benificial to me. Has anyone else had these same experiances?
Gary

"Of course thats just my opinion, I could be wrong"-Dennis Miller
www.pressurepointfighting.com (http://www.pressurepointfighting.com)

[dacheng]

Here are some AVI videoclips, on which you can see what can happen not in just a demonstration, but in competitive kind of pushing hands sparring. It's one of master Yao Chengguang's assistants against my own students.

http://www.yiquan.com.pl/img/4pekin3.avi
http://www.yiquan.com.pl/img/6pekin3.avi
http://www.yiquan.com.pl/img/8pekin3.avi

Andrzej Kalisz
yiquan@yiquan.com.pl
http://www.yiquan.com.pl

[bamboo_ leaf]

Do you have another file format, can’t open the vid.
Have real player but it seems to be missing some type of compressor to play these

or a short descrption would be intresting to read.
:)
Thanks

bamboo leaf

[Daniel Madar]

Try saving it to your desktop and opening it with windows media player instead.

Merciless is Mercy.

[bamboo_ leaf]

Thanks it worked.

DN, this is the way we push also.

As you can see the listening and abilities are closer.
The others YI (intent) is stronger very good clips.

again the practice of pushing is to devolp listeing skills, no force (li) is used.
stick, follow, relase the intent. sounds easy but actully very hard.

Should the other use LI it would be very bad again depends on the level of the player.
Thanks for the clips
:)

bamboo leaf

[vingtsunstudent]

do you really think they could slam there feet down any harder to make it sound impressive.
vts

[Mark M]

I found the sound effects from the foot stomping pretty laughable. If there is some power there, as I believe, they would have been better off without the noise. Bad marketing advice!

[crumble]

(And I haven't read everyones comments, so shame on me if I'm repeating something already said.)

Just look at the first video and check out the first few frames. Focus on the guy on the right. Look at how his arm straightens out without his hands/elbow moving back. If there was any force being transmitted at that time, the forearm would move. The arm would just not magically straighten. (Furthermore, his weight is dropping, not being sent away up or horizontally.)

I don't doubt the teacher has skills, I'm just saying what he's showing isn't 100%, if you know what I mean.

-crumble

[Water Dragon]

For the record, in my case, I went back about 2-3 feet and up about 6-8 inches

[crumble]

You said earlier that you don't know how it works in fighting. It's just to keep em off balance so they can't throw anything at you... just for the millisecond it takes to land something on them.

-crumble

p.s. I didn't go to the demonstration, so nothing to report.

[Metal Fist]

As the Three Stooges once said.."If I hadn't seen it with my own eyes, I would never have believed it." And I still don't, it looks very contrived. I have seen such "demos" before and when I ask the
"sifu" if I may "experience" his power, they always avoid it. It may be real, but I'm still
very skeptical. :eek: :eek:

"Do whatever it takes to be the last man standing!"

[Kaitain(UK)]

probably about to make a few less friends - so be it.

but what the hell sort of pushing hands was that?

leaning, shuffling and unrooted

elbows and shoulders rising, double weighted

not stepping when needed - opting to lean and stretch arms instead. When there is stepping it isn't lively - it's flat footed and plodding

they're so far apart it's crazy

the partner that gets shoved around is awful, the other guy can muster some energy but it isn't there all the time and it requires a change in stance - he has to load his rear leg before it can be used.

On the other hand I'm extremely grateful to see footage of other people pushing - I only know what my club and school do.

Before you ask, I'm intending to start putting footage up in the next months as and when I can (finally got a decent DV card for my pc).

Bamboo Leaf - you talk eloquently about taiji and seem to know and understand a lot of the concepts and principles. Yet you say that's the same pushing as you do? Do you mean the same format or that it's the same in execution as well?

addendum - the other guy may be a novice, but at least he allows himself to be pushed/thrown away - he has eradicated that 'grab on and pull' tendency that many people have. Think I'll show that to a few students at my club...

"If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?"

[bamboo_ leaf]

Please look at the clips again. What I was referring to was the ability of the YI chaun guy to lead the other into empty ness. In some of the clips where the guy is stepping back he just follows. These things are only possible because the difference in listening skills, although it may not look very smooth

It’s a bit ruff and the other did grab in the first clip, Yes all the things that you pointed out are happing; the bottom line is the TC is too heavy giving the other a place to push. He doesn’t hear what’s going on.

If he really followed the TC principles he would neither have to step back nor could he be thrown out. I push with some people here that I don’t think what the YI chaun guy did would work

It’s a matter of level, and understanding. Not about being better.

We push with no stepping. We really concentrate on using the YI, and being real Sung. Along with many other principles, my point was that if you do not follow the principles; and there is some defect in your idea or understanding you tend to get thrown out by your own power and what the YI chaun guy did becomes possible.

I play in the park, there is no real teacher, the people I play with are very open to letting others taste their art as am I. It’s the only way to really know. it’s not about being better then someone it’s just about really trying to develop real skills.

Push hands is a way to develop, and check your understanding of TC skills. The power that is used is up to the ability of the players. Play with someone high level that you don’t know you can be hurt very easily.

For those that wonder if it is good for fighting, I would say that with out these skills TC becomes like any other CMA. With these skills it becomes an art that is worthy of being called TC.

still much to work on,
luck in your training :)

bamboo leaf

[Kaitain(UK)]

thanks - I feel relieved now. I'd just started making the effort to read your posts :)

"If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?"

[dacheng]

Oh, I think I should make some comment.

First I didn't present the links to those videoclips with aim to show how good tui shou practice should look. Not at all. I used them to make point that such demonstrations as on Cheuk Fungs videoclips are not anything mysterious and impossible. When there is big difference in skill, it's nothing special. Because it obviously was 'a demonstration', so I offered those 3 videoclips, where it is not an arranged demonstration, but a sparring. And you could see what can happen when there is difference in skill level.

Of course on the clips only the assistant of master Yao has good skill, not his opponents, which are my students, but actually very beginners. They just started coming to me a few months earlier. And actually it's very difficult to teach them because they tried to learn some taijiquan for many years before, but without guidance of a good teacher, and without knowing what it's actually about. So now it's difficult to correct them. As it is said "it's easy to learn, but difficult to correct what was learned wrong" :-)

Now about the Yao's assistant. It may look very strange to some of you taijiquan guys what he is doing, but he is good at yiquan. You should know that yiquan is not taijiquan. While there are some close points, the main principles are coming from somewhere else. Presently yiquan is still not much known. Quite often there are some taijiquan people who also learn some basic yiquan, and they sell their idea of yiquan. But it's quite different. Have you noticed that from the early period of history of yiquan (1920s) there were young people coming to learn from Wang Xiangzhai and after two years or so, they participated in free fighting tournaments or tournaments of western boxing? You think that the training was all about the internal principles? If they did pushing hands the way as in taijiquan, after some years they could show those skills which are typical for what you do in taijiquan, but could they participate in boxing tournaments after just two years of learning? Would those of you who think have some achievement in taijiquan pushing hands skills come out and fight in boxing tournament? Well, what they did and what we are doing now in real yiquan, is getting fighting skills very fast, using methods sometimes close, and actually inspired by western boxing, and then gradually making the skills more subtle. Yes, Wang Xiangzhai defeated some european boxers, but at the same time he was picking up some training methods of the boxers. Then Yao Zongxun was very interested in boxing even before he started learning from Wang Xiangzhai. So when he started learning from Wang Xiangzhai, he incorporated boxing bags, more sparring in boxing gloves etc. Wang Xiangzhai approved those changes, making Yao Zongxun his assistant and letting him teach in his name, and presenting him a honorary name with a meaning of being his successor. I write this, because it's real history of yiquan development and how yiquan looks like, and not what some people imagine, not knowing more of yiquan than some basic zhan zhuang. Well, as some people said, that it's only Yao Zongxun's changes to yiquan, and not what Wang Xiangzhai was teaching, I can say: do you know of Zhao Daoxin, who was one of the earliest Wang Xiangzhai's students and winner of tournaments, and read his "Daoxin's theory of martial art" (Daoxin quanlun). It would shock some people who have funny ideas about yiquan. Or Han Xingqiao, who started learning from Wang in Shanghai period (together with brother Han Xingyuan, but learned from Wang for much longer than brother), and how he used boxing-like training? Or Bu Enfu? And many, many more (at least those who really learned form Wang Xiangzhai, not only some zhan zhuang for health). You see, it comes from real fighting practice, and not just playing pushing hands. It's to make you better understand, that yiquan pushing hands is not based on taijiquan principles, and it's closely related to boxing-like sparring. You may play with the principles, and get subtle skills, but in yiquan it was about fighting, about boxing-like sparring, and making pushing hands part of this. This is why it is said that pushing hands is not for pushing hands, but it should serve free sparring. So we think about place of pushing hands in boxing-like (or more thai boxing -like,as there is usage of elbows and knees and other parts of body) combat. So our tui shou is actually a part of this kind of san shou. Tui shou and san shou supplement each other. We use tui shou in san shou, and in tui shou we practice as it was part of san shou. For example leaning - this is typical for yiquan mechanics of generating power, and it comes from boxing-like sparring practice. Because Wang Xiangzhai's principle was: "It doesn't matter if it's internal or external". As Yao Zongxun said: "Yiquan is neither internal nor external". We don't insist so much on 'internal principles', although you can find them in yiquan practice. But yiquan concentrates much more on combat practice, and the training methods are closely related to this practice, and we use what is useful from this point of view.
Just to let you know a bit about yiquan :-)

Andrzej Kalisz
yiquan@yiquan.com.pl
http://www.yiquan.com.pl

[bamboo_ leaf]

Thanks for the info. I really did enjoy the clips and agree in principle with what was happing.
I only offer opinions, not judgment here to learn and share.

house moving day for me so I won’t be around about a week.
I really enjoy reading and sharing with voices from afar.

Happy turkey day for those that celebrate, happy day in your life for those that don’t.
may luck find your with the sun on your back and wind in your sails.

Luck in training. :)

bamboo leaf