internal arts and MMA- "mine's bigger than yours"

[grounded]

OK really what's the deal?

My first teacher always said that Chinese MA existed to train body and mind and character, not just one. We were also told repeatedly not to fight unless our lives were threatened.

I feel the true potential of internal arts is NOT having to fight. We all know the story though- you're at a party and some jerk wants to see what you do, or wants to see some magic trick involving chi. The worst thing you can do for your own development or for the sake of the art is to give in. Besides, what arrogance to think that the true masters need us to stand up for their art!

Though I train with realistic sparring procedures I personally pray that I never have to fight anyone again as long as I live. To wish for a fight for the sake of proving anything is contradictory to the very building blocks of martial arts- defending oneself and protecting others while cultivating healthy body mind and character. Fighting for the sake of fighting is not martial arts.

On an seperate note, I believe that many people who talk of devestating palms and deadly fa jin and whatnot have not seen enough real fights. Most fights are finished within 30 seconds, even if the exchange of blows continues. The realistic goal is not to incapacitate your adversary, but to keep him/her at bay until a) cops show up or b) someone's buddies end the fight. Adrenaline is a scary thing; if you have ever seen someone keep fighting with broken bones you know what I mean!

Like I said in my first post, this is not a Hong Kong flick, and none of us is Wong Fei-Hung. The goal is not to win or loose but to survive; how are you going to test that without broken bottles, knives, and guns?

[Chris McKinley]

Ok, you make some reasonable sounding points here, but what exactly is your question? What specifically are you wanting to know? So far, it kinda sounds like you're just ranting and letting off some steam?

[mantis108]

Remeber the guy who challenge Bruce Lee's character on the boat in Enter the Dragon. That guy end up alone on the little life boat until they reach their destination. So behold the Art of fighting without fighting. There is always a way to get out of a fight. All it takes is a will not to give into the ego that's all. Omega male is not the western cultures are built on. It is not a easy thing to do for most people.

Mantis108

Contraria Sunt Complementa

[Fu-Pow]

Good points. These arguments have been going on for 1000's of years. How do you train warriors without making them mindless psychos?

Look at the U.S. military and people like Timothy McVeigh. We train people to kill but we don't give them moral education or the strength of character to wield that power.

It is not surprising that Chinese martial arts reached such a high level. Most of the arts were tied to Buddhism, a very non-violent personal philosophy. It gave the practitioners the background to keep them out of trouble and yet they worked out their arts to the highest lethality.

There are valuable lessons to be learned from the Chinese Martial arts that have nothing to do with fighting.

This is what the mixed martial artists don't get. They go around collecting this deadly technique or this deadly technique. They are trying to make themselves killing machines but they don't want to learn the moral and philosophical background of the arts they study. So ultimately they are empty.

Fu-Pow

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[grounded]

yeah-
the ultimate gung fu is getting the heck out of the way.

[Repulsive Monkey]

All the internal CMA were tied directly to Taoism not to Buddhism.

[Water Dragon]

That's the beauty of competition. Even though you're fighting, it's not a fight.

[Cody]

we are also biological organisms, animals. Part of that involves a potential and in many cases, a desire for competition based on physical confrontation. An outgrowth of rutting season, competition for food, leading to what has been termed as survival of the fittest. Yup, mine is bigger than yours on a large scale. So, I will breed, and so on. It's part of the human animal. I think to say it is not nice, is to simplify and to deny something that provides a vehicle for self-defense, that primal aggression.

This primal aggression can be our worst enemy, but it also saves lives. The stage that we are at; I frankly don't know where we are going. I do think it is unrealistic to train constantly for confrontation without restraint; just as I think that to put too many emotional chains on the human emotional animal is not so good. They break when least expected. Lower (not necessarily lesser) levels of non-verbal feelings maintain themselves in spite of cerebral rules. They are not to be eradicated or lulled, but channelled and possibly altered over time.

Are there no instances of Masters in violent p*ss*ng contests? To put that in the exhalted place of standing up for one's art is not what I think it is. It is just what it looks like under the circumstances which I allude to. The Masters are human too. These violent confrontations might serve the purpose of maintaining skills which must exist outside of sport. It's part of being human. With restraint (which can be determined by cultural rules, or individually derived conscience), there is room for it because there has to be.

Look, it appears that the prime imperative is to survive. I think that many of us would wish to add to this, to survive with compassion, love, power, and the ability to use correct force with right timing.

I think there are many of us who do not want to see or be the cause of blood and teeth flying all over the place. I feel that way myself. I think that many of us suspect or know for sure that martial arts go into spheres in which there are more options which require a great deal of self control. These options are meant to be used by someone at some time. It's a matter of acquiring control over intent. If you have some power, even if you're not a Master, you have the right to use it responsibly. It is a legacy of humanity, not just of martial artists.

This is very difficult. Even after years of mental training, a single event can show that while maiming or lethal force is not thought to be a casual option by an individual who prefers evasion if it is possible (and I agree with that), there can be challenge to that on one day, on a more global (war) level. And then reconsiderationn begins anew.

There is a fine line between self defense and vengeance, between self defense and a p*ss*ng contest. At some point one needs to draw it, and then possibly redraw it. It can't be done for you, not in a deep sense. Partially because this involves recognition and the overcoming of one's fears. One thing that is always Unacceptable is taking pleasure in another's pain, even that of an enemy. Competition is one thing; sadism another.

I think these arts are meant to be used. It's how and when, according to ability, that are the questions.

Cody

[thumper]

check your email.

'either you like reincarnation or the smell of carnations'

[gano_b]

The thing that seperates us from other "animals" is our ability to choose. We decide if we are going to fight or not. Our primal urges can be contained and that makes us "civilized". The only reason to train is to cause necessary damage. 99% of confrontations have no need to end with damage. Somebody was right when they said "real men just walk away" because if you can do that you seperate yourselves from the rest of the animals.

"There is no try...do, or do not."

[grounded]

Cody, I completely agree with you. The how and when bit was my point to begin with. It seems like every time I tell someone that I practice an internal art they want to challenge me. Even Aikido people. And just recently I got this rude comment about how the Chinese arts are inferior because you don't see us in no holds barred tourneys. Now I agree that competition is good and that agression, when channeled, can do wonderous things, even save lives. But as mentioned above, what the hell do blood and teeth have to do with ARTS? Of course I still maintain that there is nothing to prove for our arts. Many of the folks who get excited about their art proving something belong to relatively new arts, like BJJ or Pancrase, or some wrestling hybrid style. They do have something to prove! But as far as I am concerned the fight records of the old masters as well as scientific evidence proove to me at least that internal Chinese arts are still worth their weight in gold..

[shaolinboxer]

"But as far as I am concerned the fight records of the old masters as well as scientific evidence proove to me at least that internal Chinese arts are still worth their weight in gold."

The fight records of the old masters are generally unvarafiable and exagerrated.

Scientific evidence does not mean much since martial arts is a very relative thing, so if you can't prove it to me but you could to someone conducting an experiement there is no reason for me to believe in what you are advocating.

However, the "internal arts" have a merit all their own that has nothing to do with scientific evidence or how many scuffles some dead chinese guy got into when he was in his so called prime.

I don't think you need either of these things to appreciate these arts.

Dealing with people challenging you is something you have to get used to. I found that it was my attitude that often drew out the challanges from other people, and my own insecurity that made fall back on citing what amounts to anecdotes.

Perhaps some of these challengers just want to share knowledge or are simply curious.

The language of martial arts is very physical, but physical communication does not have to mean competition.

[Cody]

gano_b,
Sorry, animals do and can choose whether or not to fight in many instances. i.e., Many of rutting interactions are based initially on display and then on contact. Often, an animal is free to choose not to fight and to flee, even after fighting or mock fighting begins. Animals can function as individuals, and many do have options in behavior apart from instinct. There are learned behaviors. There is use of tools. There is love and learned nurturing. There is grief. There is thought, though not the language development of man.

We are animals, biologically and in mental foundation, like it or not. To deny this or separate from it is not something I would want to do. There appears to be a real difference between man and his animal relations in terms of the development of language, at least according to something I am in the process of reading. It's dense stuff. Not just actual talking and grammar, but the kind of mental equipment for different kinds of memory, etc., which are necessary to provide for the development of language. I can't pursue this further now. Don't know enough.

To walk away from a challenge to one's ego is the mature thing to do. Some of the training is for necessary fighting, but some should be for other things, which have I spoken about previously. I would rather say that one reason to train is not to cause unnecessary damage. similar, but not the same. I don't understand where you get your statistic of 99%. I see that you wish to avoid violence and agree that is best. We are what we are.

grounded,
I think that having something to prove is a function of personality and group dynamics and doesn't necessarily have to do with the particular art studied. I can see what you mean in terms of a younger art trying to build a heritage of success. I hadn't thought of that.

I think that martial arts have many levels, one of which is the blood and teeth section. A fist to the muzzle, a chop at the carotid. That is part of training too. Whether the punch is from an internal or external practitioner is of no consequence. A punch is a punch.

Though there is a place for this, I am not much into fight records. First off, knowing me, I'd have to check out each and every one and I really don't want to do that. heck with it. The no holds barred events aren't for everyone. I don't watch them. I think of it as an outlet. Not everyone needs that or is up to it. Some who are capable don't want to. Refusal is an option. Why not?

Challenge is part of martial arts history. I think this is something difficult to deal with because people might feel that what they study and who they are, the validity of both, and the integrity of both, are being harshly questioned unnecessarily by people who just want to rumble. It is important to exercise the option not to do so without implying anything other than personal preference. I guess, some of this comes down to equating insistence of proving yourself or your art with the old lines re proving one's love in girl-guy things. In going against your nature to accomodate the egotistical needs of another, you lose even if you appear to win. I speak of respect and personal standards of behavior.
I think martial arts are precious because they provide a way for us to be better than we ever thought we could be.

You take pride in what you are a part of, the tradition, it's history, and it's future and that is something important.

and Lyle,
While scientific evidence might not go far or be necessary for appreciation of the arts, there is indeed some work proving how wonderful the arts are, and that they can improve quality of life. I know this has been done to help the elderly to regain balance and experience less frailty. It's not exactly what we are talking about around here, but the research results can be extended to expectations that younger people can improve their lives.

Cody

[shaolinboxer]

Yes Cody, studies about the improvements of heath and general lifestyle are excellent examples, and should be cited when talking about the internal arts. I was thinking more along the lines of "proof of chi" and the like.

[Cody]

I see where you're going. Yes, scientific studies are not necessary to one's development of or perception of the effects of Chi. In my view that is so. However, the eventual progress of science into this realm, by level-headed scientists who are experienced with energy circulation and use, could be important in a developmental sense.

Just as an aside, I do not question the existence of Chi (energy or energies) that can be trained. That is my experience, personal and observed, on my level. I also think there is a great deal of confusion about Chi and Spirit, and the interaction of both. That is my interest, and I am a novice. There is mention of an alchemy, and I think that is so. Definition, real definition would be like defining many other things which are undefinable, except by effects. It seems not to be the role of man, at least not yet, to understand or even see into the realm of "absolutes". Some bridge the gap with faith. I don't even have that. I "know" what I know for myself, for my practical existence. I don't need to have others see it as I do. My perceptions evolve. I pay attention to other people's findings and sometimes are guided by them, but I'd keep going without them.

All this challenge stuff that keeps coming up. Some of it is ego-induced, some a biological leadership of the herd battle, and some is just for membership within a herd. It can boil down to you're either with us or against us, and you have to fight for either status. The one who goes his/her own way, for any number of good reasons, is not in a safe position.

Cody