Who are kung fu masters who don't hold back in teaching?

[LaterthanNever]

I am curious to know based on experience of others reading this thread , who in their opinion are kung fu masters who do NOT hold back in their instruction (ie: They want to pass on the sum total of ALL that they learned and don't take the dreaded (final 10-25%) of what they've learned "to the grave"_


In other words..I am looking to the polar opposite of the "carrot dangler"(who forgets at some point that the carrot is *half eaten*).

I have read Grandmaster Leung Shum of Ying Jow Pai is one individual who is very generous with his information(provided one works hard).

Any others?

Lord knows, there sure are too many of those who fill the bill of dangled carrot with an ever increasingly long held rope.

[Orion Paximus]

It's not always about how long you've been there, but whether or not you've gotten a firm enough grasp on your other material. If you don't, then why should you get the next piece?

But to the actual question: I don't know of anyone that does that kind of stuff any more if a student has reached the point where they should be learning that last bit of a teacher's material. Not that even means anything. The last "10-15%" has never been a bunch of deadly techniques, it's always just been more of what you already should have been taught.

[GeneChing]

A more appropriate question is: Who are the students who think they can progress to the next level but don't even have a grasp of the basics yet?

Answer: 90% of the student body.

:p

[Jimbo]

Pretty much agree with the previous answers here.

As to the question of which masters want to teach everything out, well, that's probably impossible to answer unless you are a long-time student of that teacher. My CLF sifu will teach openly, if you're ready for it and have earned the right to learn it. If you're not ready for something, it's better not to ask about "When can I learn _____?" Oftentimes some things that people think are held back are things they simply are not at a level to digest and incorporate properly.

The fact is, many typical KF students you will see out there need to concentrate harder on developing solid fundamentals and basic applications, reactions, etc. It's not dangling a carrot when students who aren't ready for something are not allowed to learn it yet. Most MA students don't even stick around long enough.

IME, there are no mysterious secrets that make you better, other than a deeper understanding of the fundamentals and the training and experience necessary to make them work.

Of course, there are 'carrot danglers' in CMA. I would have thought in this day and age, that had become obsolete. Then again, I associate very little in the MA world anymore.

[mickey]

Greetings,

It is the desperate need to be on the inside track to get "the knowledge" that helps set up those mckwoons and mcdojos, creating the potential for cycles of abuse similar to those abuse situations we see coming out of Hollywood. Hard work/discipline/acquired polished technique is very much the true definition of kung fu. People, pretty much, bypass the meaning altogether.

The world of "instant teatty" still exists.

mickey

[mickey]

More,

For you to know whether a person is holding back or not, you would have to know the full curriculum to begin with.


mickey

[LaterthanNever]

Thank you all for your fine commentary :)

While there are good and true lessons to be learned and deep philosophical insights to be gained in your answers...

Only Jimbo it seems gave me an answer consistent with the question.

We ALL know students who want to learn the most advanced techniques of a style or system after the first lesson(or for the uber impatient..within the FIRST lesson)..in other words..those who find "the basics" to be a bore and a waste of time.

And we all have either met, interacted and (yes) in some cases..trained with the carrot danglers.

To reiterate..I'm NOT asking "Who is a charlatan and/or carrot dangler":

I am asking..which sifus/masters have *THE OPPOSITE* approach to the dangler?(in other words..who wants to teach everything they know?)

Thanks.

Good wishes,
LTN

[YouKnowWho]

who wants to teach everything they know?
In my 8/13/2017 workshop, within 3 hours, I had taught 52 different techniques. My concern is not whether I want to teach everything I know. My concern is whether my students can learn as fast as I can teach them.

1st Side:

咬(Yao) – Bite (45 degree downward)

1. Leading arm push upper arm shin bite

撿(Jian) - Foot picking (horizontal)

1. Leading arm push upper arm foot picking

粘(Zhan) - Sticking kick (vertical up)

1. Hopping sticking kick (vertical)

撮(Cuo) – Scooping kick (45 degree up)

1. Back arm, leading leg scooping kick
2. Leading arm, back leg scooping kick
3. Single neck tie body twist scooping kick
4. Single neck tie scooping kick, break

踢(Ti) – Kick (behind the heel, in front of instep)

1. Shoulder pulling kick – push/pull, counter itself
2. Sleeve push/pull kick – sleeve hold, or upper arm hold
3. Foot landing kick
4. Horizontal throw, heel kick – back belt right sprint, right kick
5. Neck arm kick – collar/sleeve, twist/counter twist, single neck tie
6. Neck mopping kick- spin, wheeling step
7. Elbow locking kick – counter itself
8. Arm pulling, leading leg blocking kick
9. Reverse head lock kick
10. Front waist lifting kick
11. Head leaning knee seize kick – left knee seize, right kick
12. 3 points step kick – head lock, or under hook right back spring, right kick
13. Scoop kick – mirror stance, right scoop, left kick, collar/sleeve
14. Back spring kick – right back spring, left kick
15. Side spring kick – left side spring, right kick
16. Horizontal throw, inner edge kick – back belt horizontal throw, left kick

撞(Zhuang) - Trunk hitting

靠(Kao) – Shoulder strike

1. Shoulder push bench sitting advance squeeze
2. Shoulder push knee push advance squeeze
3. Leg lift waist control flip
4. Leading leg pull, back leg shoulder strike

4th Side:

别 (Bie) – Break (both feet on the ground), 撩(Liao) - Back kick (single leg standing),

1. Head lock stealing step break – uniform stance
2. Head lock cover step break – mirror stance
3. Under hook break - offense
4. Under hook break - counter for head lock
5. Over hook break
6. Hip throw break
7. Back waist lift break
8. Front waist lift break
9. Side door stealing step break
10. Bowing break – stealing step, or cover step
11. Scoop break – scoop left leg, break right leg
12. Leg twist, leg break
13. Leg lift, leg break
14. Jumping break – pin arm on chest, foot stomping, jump in, head lock
15. Reverse head lock break
16. Knee pressing break – counter for single leg
17. Linear hand break
18. Circular hand break
19. Hand leg break
20. Fancy break – hold left leg, break right leg

扣(Kou) - Knee seizing

1. Arm drag knee seize
2. Knee strike knee seize
3. Shoulder strike knee seize

切(Qie) – Cut

1. Footwork
2. Neck push front cut
3. Neck press diagonal cut
4. Uniform stance head lock cut
5. Mirror stance head lock cut

削(Xiao) - Sickle hooking

1. Shoulder push sickle hooking
2. Waist wrapping neck pushing sickle hooking

[David Jamieson]

A more appropriate question is: Who are the students who think they can progress to the next level but don't even have a grasp of the basics yet?

Answer: 90% of the student body.

:p

I find this to be true in almost any endeavour. We are weird creatures in that regard as well.

[bawang]

john whens ur next seminar plz i wanna come plz plz

[SteveLau]

Yep. I have met kung fu master that does not hold back in teaching disregard whether his student can learn it. Because he does not want to be perceived as holding back teaching.



Regards,

KC
Hong Kong

[MightyB]

I'm not sure anybody can hold back information, or more likely - if they claim they're holding back information they're probably lying, or they're just not that skilled. After doing martial arts for a couple of decades - you realize that there's not much variation between the different styles. Really there's only proclivities between the various historical masters. Sometimes that leads to stagnation because modern masters and students can become afraid to experiment... or experimentation is looked down upon. The only holding back that seems to happen is that some masters are rigid and don't allow flexibility with their students. This can take different forms but usually it's a variation of this thought of my style is the best and has all the answers so don't look outside it and definitely don't cross train or I'll throw you out and I have all the answers.

I have this theory that there really are only a few martial movements and these are pretty much universal. The movements can be interpreted in nearly infinite ways hence all of this thought of hidden applications or secrets. When one really explores - they become aware of these secrets which aren't really secrets - they're just discovered personal proclivities. This happens naturally over time.

To illustrate a more concrete example of this theory: One of my new favorite forms is one that I learned in the third grade from a traditional Okinawan stylist. It's Naihanchi Shodan. It's a controversially boring form which most people initially hate and then grow to love. Its genius is that it is a super nebulous and vague form. If you look up the form you'll find a plethora of masters talking about hidden techniques and meaning found in the form... and everyone seems to have their own take on what those techniques are. Here's the big secret: They're all correct. I think the vagueness of the form allows for something unique... which is - after a couple of decades of martial study, if you go back and do that form, you'll start to see all kinds of shiznit in that form because it's like a living rorschach. You find techniques that you want to find based on your own proclivities.

If I'm correct, how can any master keep anything secret? Especially if a student is earnest and puts in the time because they should discover their own secrets.

[LaterthanNever]

"Yep. I have met kung fu master that does not hold back in teaching disregard whether his student can learn it. Because he does not want to be perceived as holding back teaching."

SteveLau. Thank you. May I ask their name? Who is this man or woman?



"If I'm correct, how can any master keep anything secret? Especially if a student is earnest and puts in the time because they should discover their own secrets. "

It's SIMPLE! Said sifu/master/Grandmaster says to themselves "Well..I need a comprehensive retirement plan. Student A has been with me for 20 years. Trained hard..very, very hard too! Still not a sifu yet. He's only learned 30% my material. (sadistic laugh to self). I reckon I can lead him down the primrose path for another 20 years and then when he says "Well, sifu..can I test for sifu status now?", I will invent an excuse to declare him/her insolent and threaten to kick them out of the school. I will be in my mid 80s then..and even if he's learned 60 % of material..look at all of the money I've gotten!"

[Orion Paximus]

It's SIMPLE! Said sifu/master/Grandmaster says to themselves "Well..I need a comprehensive retirement plan. Student A has been with me for 20 years. Trained hard..very, very hard too! Still not a sifu yet. He's only learned 30% my material. (sadistic laugh to self). I reckon I can lead him down the primrose path for another 20 years and then when he says "Well, sifu..can I test for sifu status now?", I will invent an excuse to declare him/her insolent and threaten to kick them out of the school. I will be in my mid 80s then..and even if he's learned 60 % of material..look at all of the money I've gotten!"

You seem pretty bitter, man. Did someone kick you out for being impatient? Again, maybe you just kind of sucked at your basic material and said teacher didn't feel you were ready for more.

[Orion Paximus]

It's a controversially boring form which most people initially hate and then grow to love. Its genius is that it is a super nebulous and vague form. If you look up the form you'll find a plethora of masters talking about hidden techniques and meaning found in the form... and everyone seems to have their own take on what those techniques are. Here's the big secret: They're all correct. I think the vagueness of the form allows for something unique... which is - after a couple of decades of martial study, if you go back and do that form, you'll start to see all kinds of shiznit in that form because it's like a living rorschach. You find techniques that you want to find based on your own proclivities.

I agree with this 100%

[LaterthanNever]

"You seem pretty bitter, man. Did someone kick you out for being impatient? Again, maybe you just kind of sucked at your basic material and said teacher didn't feel you were ready for more"

Nope!!! (on both counts). Rather, I am trying to ferret out those who are masters who are "worth their salt" vs. those who are uh...questionable! :o

[rett2]

Rather, I am trying to ferret out those who are masters who are "worth their salt" vs. those who are uh...questionable! :o

I'm enjoying this thread as it is, but would just like to add something. A teacher who "holds back" or is perceived as holding back can still be "worth his/her salt" IMO. Whether a teacher is good or questionable does not correlate with being perceived as "holding back" or not. 2¢

[MightyB]

Nope!!! (on both counts). Rather, I am trying to ferret out those who are masters who are "worth their salt" vs. those who are uh...questionable! :o

Well, it's considered to be in bad taste to name people, good or bad, online. So instead, if you want to know if someone's worth their salt, watch them move. There are enough examples of people who were or are at the top of their game on the youtubes nowadays which should give you good idea of what balance, power, grace, and fajing should look like. There are also a **** ton of examples of bad kung fu on the tubes.

Go in person to a class and watch the person in question move.

[Jimbo]

Well, it's considered to be in bad taste to name people, good or bad, online. So instead, if you want to know if someone's worth their salt, watch them move. There are enough examples of people who were or are at the top of their game on the youtubes nowadays which should give you good idea of what balance, power, grace, and fajing should look like. There are also a **** ton of examples of bad kung fu on the tubes.

Go in person to a class and watch the person in question move.

Good advice.

However, I'd like to add that sometimes how good a teacher's skills are and how well he moves isn't always a good indicator of how good a teacher he is.

I knew a certain teacher in Taiwan (not my teacher) whose kung fu was at a very high level; in addition, he was always willing to spar anyone, at any time, something I'd never seen any other established teacher there do. I sparred him several times, and can attest to the fact that he was very good. At that time, he was about in his early 50s, and even then, he had the fastest kick I'd ever seen. He taught a rare lineage of Hung Gar. My second Northern Mantis teacher in Taiwan was a student of his. This HG teacher's kung/gong, his speed, power, technique, and his form were impeccable.

AFAIK, there were only 3 students of this HG teacher who received 'the real stuff', my own Mantis teacher being the last and youngest. These three students also had a high level of natural talent for MA. All his other students that I saw or knew of (and he had taught a LOT of students over the years) were literally awful. Simply put, he didn't care about these other students; he took their money and gave them a bunch of forms that he taught them half-@ssed and wrong. This HG teacher also had character issues, but I won't go into that here.

So if I could add any advice, I would say that, if possible, observe the overall quality level of a teacher's students. Of course, virtually every school will have their better and lesser-skilled students. But try to determine the overall levels of the school. Do the students seem good for the levels they're at? How are the advanced and intermediate-level students? Are the beginners developing good fundamentals, and do the intermediate and advanced students seem to know what they're doing beyond just doing good forms? Because the teacher himself may be good, but that in itself may not be an indicator that he is able or willing to pass it down to others. If a teacher has only a very small group, then this should be even easier to determine.

Oddly enough, a friend of mine (who had already been a CMA teacher himself for many years) once told me he left a certain large BJJ school because the teacher held back and only shared the fine points with students who were also from Brazil. He compared it to the way some older Chinese sifu only taught the 'real' stuff to Chinese students. This friend ended up switching to another BJJ school where that wasn't an issue.

[MightyB]

So if I could add any advice, I would say that, if possible, observe the overall quality level of a teacher's students. Of course, virtually every school will have their better and lesser-skilled students. But try to determine the overall levels of the school. Do the students seem good for the levels they're at? How are the advanced and intermediate-level students? Are the beginners developing good fundamentals, and do the intermediate and advanced students seem to know what they're doing beyond just doing good forms? Because the teacher himself may be good, but that in itself may not be an indicator that he is able or willing to pass it down to others. If a teacher has only a very small group, then this should be even easier to determine.


This is gold. You're right - but also, you have to keep in mind that there are a lot of sh**y students (no athletic ability, lack of attention span, no tolerance for pain, etc.), so it's hard to tell.

[YouKnowWho]

how can any master keep anything secret? Especially if a student is earnest and puts in the time because they should discover their own secrets.

The secret is like a thin paper, it blocks your view. after you make a hole through it, you can see everything. The question is how long will it take you to make a hole through that thin paper?

A: Dear master! Last night I sparred with a MMA guy in local MMA gym. When I did ..., he countered with ... I didn't know how to deal with his counter.
B: You can try .... and ...

I had used this trick to squeeze out every single bit of "secret" from my teacher. Sometime I even "faked" the sparring experience. I just wanted to hear his solution if he was in that situation. How can any teacher hide any secret if his students try to solve problem by using his teaching material? If a teacher didn't want his student to lose in sparring so he might lose face, he had to share his personal secret.

[Orion Paximus]

The secret is like a thin paper, it blocks your view. after you make a hole through it, you can see everything. The question is how long will it take you to make a hole through that thin paper?


This is the truth. And sometimes the student is the one holding the paper, unsure of why his view is blocked. Don't get in your own way. Listen, learn, and practice.

[MightyB]

The secret is like a thin paper, it blocks your view. after you make a hole through it, you can see everything. The question is how long will it take you to make a hole through that thin paper?

A: Dear master! Last night I sparred with a MMA guy in local MMA gym. When I did ..., he countered with ... I didn't know how to deal with his counter.
B: You can try .... and ...

I had used this trick to squeeze out every single bit of "secret" from my teacher. Sometime I even "faked" the sparring experience. I just wanted to hear his solution if he was in that situation. How can any teacher hide any secret if his students try to solve problem by using his teaching material? If a teacher didn't want his student to lose in sparring so he might lose face, he had to share his personal secret.

I absolutely love this!!!

[LaterthanNever]

Gentlemen/Ladies,

"I'm enjoying this thread as it is, but would just like to add something. A teacher who "holds back" or is perceived as holding back can still be "worth his/her salt" IMO. Whether a teacher is good or questionable does not correlate with being perceived as "holding back" or not. 2¢"

Absolutely! For the record..I'm not talking about a sifu/master/grandmaster who has promoted many dedicated students to sifu level over the years and decides to save the "remaining 10%" for a couple of specific and worthy students who have gone over and beyond the call of duty and is given the "inner chamber" secrets. For instance, if one examines the syllabus for for 7* mantis..there are, I believe 114 forms (:eek: ) and the syllabus states something to the effect that "the remaining 8 forms are reserved for the inheritor of the system". That is fundamentally different to what I am asking.

MightyB,

"Well, it's considered to be in bad taste to name people, good or bad, online."

According to whom? The kung fu community is so split, that every time a certain WC master so much as passes wind, it's all over the internet 10 minutes later. And yet? I ask for THE OPPOSITE constructive discussion (ie: who are high level masters who are willing to teach what they know in it's entirely provided one is dedicated" and all of a sudden it's a taboo topic? :rolleyes:

"There are also a **** ton of examples of bad kung fu on the tubes. "

Again..that wasn't the purpose of the thread. It's generally a lot easier to look at the negative about a topic before one chooses to look at the positive.

Jimbo,

"I knew a certain teacher in Taiwan (not my teacher) whose kung fu was at a very high level; in addition, he was always willing to spar anyone, at any time, something I'd never seen any other established teacher there do. I sparred him several times, and can attest to the fact that he was very good. At that time, he was about in his early 50s, and even then, he had the fastest kick I'd ever seen. He taught a rare lineage of Hung Gar. My second Northern Mantis teacher in Taiwan was a student of his. This HG teacher's kung/gong, his speed, power, technique, and his form were impeccable."

Would you mind listing his/her name? TY Sir.


YouknowWho

"This is the truth. And sometimes the student is the one holding the paper, unsure of why his view is blocked. Don't get in your own way. Listen, learn, and practice."

Absolutely! And sometimes it's *not*. I would obviously consider you Master Wang among the penulimate instructors who are the opposite of the "hold back" ideology. That's some syllabus you've got there! Thank you for your dedication and comittment to CMA.

[Jimbo]

Jimbo,

"I knew a certain teacher in Taiwan (not my teacher) whose kung fu was at a very high level; in addition, he was always willing to spar anyone, at any time, something I'd never seen any other established teacher there do. I sparred him several times, and can attest to the fact that he was very good. At that time, he was about in his early 50s, and even then, he had the fastest kick I'd ever seen. He taught a rare lineage of Hung Gar. My second Northern Mantis teacher in Taiwan was a student of his. This HG teacher's kung/gong, his speed, power, technique, and his form were impeccable."

Would you mind listing his/her name? TY Sir.

This footage of him was from the early 1980s or so. I believe he's well into his 70s now. The last time I saw him in person was 25 years ago, when I left Taiwan. In more recent vids I've seen of him, he's gained a lot of weight and obviously due to his age has slowed down a lot. Apparently an American student of his posted this old video; AFAIK, Chang/Zhang still lives in Taiwan. This student must have met him in Taiwan well after I left, because when I knew Chang/Zhang, his students were almost all Taiwanese/Chinese, and no Westerners that I knew of.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrtvB_8Xpkk&sns=em

[mickey]

This footage of him was from the early 1980s or so. I believe he's well into his 70s now. The last time I saw him in person was 25 years ago, when I left Taiwan. In more recent vids I've seen of him, he's gained a lot of weight and obviously due to his age has slowed down a lot. Apparently an American student of his posted this old video; AFAIK, Chang/Zhang still lives in Taiwan. This student must have met him in Taiwan well after I left, because when I knew Chang/Zhang, his students were almost all Taiwanese/Chinese, and no Westerners that I knew of.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrtvB_8Xpkk&sns=em


Greetings Gentlemen,

What is most interesting about the form that master is doing is that one can see the influence of Hua To's Five Animal Frolics.

mickey

[Jimbo]

Greetings Gentlemen,

What is most interesting about the form that master is doing is that one can see the influence of Hua To's Five Animal Frolics.

mickey

Interesting observation, mickey, and I wouldn't disagree.

Sorry to take this thread OT, but Master Zhang/Chang can also be seen very briefly in this Taiwanese kung fu movie, Shaolin vs. Ninja, in a few sequences from 3:02 to 3:48. He's in the red uniform leading some of his students in a demo. Here he performed part of his Zui Ba Xian (Drunken 8 Immortals) set, which he was also famous for. The leading star of the film, TKD champion Alexander Lo Rei (also the lead star of movies such as Shaolin vs. Lama, etc., etc.), had studied Hung Gar under Zhang.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1Mf2tvQ84o&sns=em

[mickey]

Interesting observation, mickey, and I wouldn't disagree.

Sorry to take this thread OT, but Master Zhang/Chang can also be seen very briefly in this Taiwanese kung fu movie, Shaolin vs. Ninja, in a few sequences from 3:02 to 3:48. He's in the red uniform leading some of his students in a demo. Here he performed part of his Zui Ba Xian (Drunken 8 Immortals) set, which he was also famous for. The leading star of the film, TKD champion Alexander Lo Rei (also the lead star of movies such as Shaolin vs. Lama, etc., etc.), had studied Hung Gar under Zhang.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1Mf2tvQ84o&sns=em


That was nice, Jimbo.

Thank you for sharing that.

mickey

[David Jamieson]

I have no idea how any student would have any idea that any teacher is holding anything back.


We know nothing of the style when we come into it.