Free sparring on kung fu

[Ninjaforever]

Was there the Free sparring on traditional kung fu shaolin, at bodidharma time, and on hung gar, chay lei fu ecc at time of their founders, and is there historical evidence about it. I don' t mean sparring like sport, but like method for try techiniches, on Free way. Many school training only forms, and some school sparring similitaries way to kickboxing, muay thai ecc. How the kung fu sparring is? How I told you Many school training the fighting a way similiar to modern kickboxing ecc. What is the connection beetween forms and fighting? Greetings

[Orion Paximus]

Was there the Free sparring on traditional kung fu shaolin, at bodidharma time, and on hung gar, chay lei fu ecc at time of their founders, and is there historical evidence about it. I don' t mean sparring like sport, but like method for try techiniches, on Free way. Many school training only forms, and some school sparring similitaries way to kickboxing, muay thai ecc. How the kung fu sparring is? How I told you Many school training the fighting a way similiar to modern kickboxing ecc. What is the connection beetween forms and fighting? Greetings

The fact is, most schools who teach forms, have no idea how to apply what is in those forms, so they teach sanda or like you said, more kickboxing oriented sparring. There are some schools that still teach and drill techniques from the forms themselves and encourage their students to practice those same techniques in their sparring.

As in all things, it varies depending on where you go.

In answer to your question, we only have the stories that were passed down and the various found texts to tell us what life in the temple was like in those times. Though what the temple was or wasn't doing shouldn't really matter. Kung Fu was being trained in the barracks and soldier's camps and you can bet they were using it in their sparring.

[Jimbo]

If kung fu was originally created for fighting purposes, it stands to reason that the original emphasis was on solid basics, development (kung, or gong), and application practice, more than forms. Forms are mostly idealized representations of fighting movements, not intended to take the place of development and drilling practices.

There is no solid 'proof' of exactly how anyone fought with kung fu in the 1800s and earlier, except for stories handed down, and even those vary. The only proof that they were effective is that their systems are still around today. If they had fought and lost more than they won, their systems would've been seen as worthless and mostly discarded.

[David Jamieson]

The fact is, most schools who teach forms, have no idea how to apply what is in those forms, so they teach sanda or like you said, more kickboxing oriented sparring. There are some schools that still teach and drill techniques from the forms themselves and encourage their students to practice those same techniques in their sparring.

As in all things, it varies depending on where you go.

In answer to your question, we only have the stories that were passed down and the various found texts to tell us what life in the temple was like in those times. Though what the temple was or wasn't doing shouldn't really matter. Kung Fu was being trained in the barracks and soldier's camps and you can bet they were using it in their sparring.

That's a weird assumption because really, if you don't know what the forms mean and how to take them apart and apply, then what the heck are you doing teaching?

The temple has paintings from a few hundred years ago that plainly show exactly what it is that you are asking about.

Pugilism isn't really regarded as a war art anyway, so weapons and military practicality had more value as you go further back.

Empty hand fighting is only part of what making violence is about in full scope anyway.

[Orion Paximus]

That's a weird assumption because really, if you don't know what the forms mean and how to take them apart and apply, then what the heck are you doing teaching?

Right. We're not saying different things here.

[MightyB]

This...

Forms are mostly idealized representations of fighting movements, not intended to take the place of development and drilling practices.


plus,

Forms can give you insight into the favorite fighting techniques, set ups, and combinations of past masters. You can do this through analyzing the key repetitive movements and combination of movements that are found throughout a system.

A good way to analyze why certain combinations of techniques are repeated is through testing them out in drills and sparring.

[MightyB]

these are my random thoughts lately....

I've been spending a lot of time researching and analyzing Filipino Martial Arts lately which is making me question a lot of my assumptions about Chinese Martial Arts.

For instance, like I posted earlier in this thread - key repetitive movements...

FMA claims it's a war art (as opposed to other martial arts) and the way you know it's a true war art is because it starts with weapons first - bare hands are a last resort. Yet - FMA uses sticks and knives - they claim they're a lineage of Lapu Lapu (famous for killing Magellan), yet the war weapons of their past were similar to other war weapons found everywhere which are: spear, shield, bow & arrow, and blow gun (which you don't find in modern Escrima). This leads credence to the claim that Escrima is a modern martial art which is derived from the street fighters and gangsters of Cebu. It's a modern street art. As a matter of fact, they didn't have forms until they were created and introduced by the Doce Pares club. Forms in FMA are just key repetitive movements that are linked together.

Could this be the case of our Chinese Martial Arts?

Let's examine, again these are my random thoughts -

Earlier footage of martial arts (film clips) are pretty much of street performers doing forms. The early *fight footage from TCMA is pretty underwhelming.
When you look at weapons, the historical war weapons forms (double edged sword, single edge sword, staff, spear, halberd) are common to pretty much all CMA and are very similar. Deviation in the weapons forms happens with uncommon weapons (an example would be a hook sword) which don't have archeological evidence of use in war.

When you start to look at common unarmed martial movements among war arts the world over - it looks like Shuai Jiao, or Ju Jitsu, or Sumo, or Wrestling with basic chin na. These styles of fighting are two person drill based - they don't really have forms.

When you use a dao (single edge sword) the weapon is chambered behind a lead empty hand. Yet - if you ever watch or participate in weapons sparring - no one does that. The blade takes the lead - The empty left hand being in front does make sense though if you were to have a shield. Just something that makes me go hmmmm.

If you reverse grip a knife (blade is down) almost everything in 7* still works in exactly the same way it's traditionally taught, except now it's a whole lot deadlier. And - the right hand lead (common bare-hand fighting stance) now makes more sense (with a knife).

After the boxer rebellion - CMA was almost dead. It was revived by the Chin Woo. The Chin Woo used linear forms based teaching because it was easier to teach groups. They did practice a simulated knife fighting sport in the Chin Woo. Could the simulated knife fighting sport be the *realz?

Maybe TCMA is a modern take on street fighting arts.

[David Jamieson]

Right. We're not saying different things here.

well, except that you say "most schools" do this. That is not true so much in my experience and most certainly is not the meat and potatoes of it these days where we are finally at the put up or shut up stage of things.

The first thing people do coming in my door is glove up and lets see what you got.

The reason for this is to get understanding immediately of what needs work. (Hint, often people are leg weak, oddly)

Anyway, one or two three minute rounds and it's not hard to assess where a person really needs to work in their martial skills.

I find that this is an effective means to assess and understand where a person is at and how to point them in the right direction to attaining the skills they would like to attain.

If someone wants fully full on wushu for performance and grading, I am not their guy and I will make it clear. I'm a traditional Kung Fu guy that takes only private adult students willing to work on themselves.

Glove em up first thing and you learn a lot. That is for sure. There is no room for arrogance when that is happening. Learn learn learn and keep learning.

[Jimbo]

these are my random thoughts lately....

I've been spending a lot of time researching and analyzing Filipino Martial Arts lately which is making me question a lot of my assumptions about Chinese Martial Arts.

For instance, like I posted earlier in this thread - key repetitive movements...

FMA claims it's a war art (as opposed to other martial arts) and the way you know it's a true war art is because it starts with weapons first - bare hands are a last resort. Yet - FMA uses sticks and knives - they claim they're a lineage of Lapu Lapu (famous for killing Magellan), yet the war weapons of their past were similar to other war weapons found everywhere which are: spear, shield, bow & arrow, and blow gun (which you don't find in modern Escrima). This leads credence to the claim that Escrima is a modern martial art which is derived from the street fighters and gangsters of Cebu. It's a modern street art. As a matter of fact, they didn't have forms until they were created and introduced by the Doce Pares club. Forms in FMA are just key repetitive movements that are linked together.

Could this be the case of our Chinese Martial Arts?

Let's examine, again these are my random thoughts -

Earlier footage of martial arts (film clips) are pretty much of street performers doing forms. The early *fight footage from TCMA is pretty underwhelming.
When you look at weapons, the historical war weapons forms (double edged sword, single edge sword, staff, spear, halberd) are common to pretty much all CMA and are very similar. Deviation in the weapons forms happens with uncommon weapons (an example would be a hook sword) which don't have archeological evidence of use in war.

When you start to look at common unarmed martial movements among war arts the world over - it looks like Shuai Jiao, or Ju Jitsu, or Sumo, or Wrestling with basic chin na. These styles of fighting are two person drill based - they don't really have forms.

When you use a dao (single edge sword) the weapon is chambered behind a lead empty hand. Yet - if you ever watch or participate in weapons sparring - no one does that. The blade takes the lead - The empty left hand being in front does make sense though if you were to have a shield. Just something that makes me go hmmmm.

If you reverse grip a knife (blade is down) almost everything in 7* still works in exactly the same way it's traditionally taught, except now it's a whole lot deadlier. And - the right hand lead (common bare-hand fighting stance) now makes more sense (with a knife).

After the boxer rebellion - CMA was almost dead. It was revived by the Chin Woo. The Chin Woo used linear forms based teaching because it was easier to teach groups. They did practice a simulated knife fighting sport in the Chin Woo. Could the simulated knife fighting sport be the *realz?

Maybe TCMA is a modern take on street fighting arts.

Nice, thoughtful post, MightyB. Makes a lot of sense. Any art designed for a battlefield would have emphasize weaponry appropriate for a battlefield, as opposed to, say, empty-handed fighting. Much of the latter was likely based on weapons techniques, but used more as civilian fighting methods.

[MightyB]

Nice, thoughtful post, MightyB. Makes a lot of sense. Any art designed for a battlefield would have emphasize weaponry appropriate for a battlefield, as opposed to, say, empty-handed fighting. Much of the latter was likely based on weapons techniques, but used more as civilian fighting methods.

Check out Pages 95, 96, & 97 https://books.google.com/books?id=fWv26Msr0bkC&lpg=PP1&dq=jingwu&pg=PA96#v=onepage&q&f=false
It's called "Pici: Cut and Stab Skills"

*Brian Kennedy's book - he used to post on this forum.

[diego]

these are my random thoughts lately....

I've been spending a lot of time researching and analyzing Filipino Martial Arts lately which is making me question a lot of my assumptions about Chinese Martial Arts.

For instance, like I posted earlier in this thread - key repetitive movements...

FMA claims it's a war art (as opposed to other martial arts) and the way you know it's a true war art is because it starts with weapons first - bare hands are a last resort. Yet - FMA uses sticks and knives - they claim they're a lineage of Lapu Lapu (famous for killing Magellan), yet the war weapons of their past were similar to other war weapons found everywhere which are: spear, shield, bow & arrow, and blow gun (which you don't find in modern Escrima). This leads credence to the claim that Escrima is a modern martial art which is derived from the street fighters and gangsters of Cebu. It's a modern street art. As a matter of fact, they didn't have forms until they were created and introduced by the Doce Pares club. Forms in FMA are just key repetitive movements that are linked together.

Could this be the case of our Chinese Martial Arts?

Let's examine, again these are my random thoughts -

Earlier footage of martial arts (film clips) are pretty much of street performers doing forms. The early *fight footage from TCMA is pretty underwhelming.
When you look at weapons, the historical war weapons forms (double edged sword, single edge sword, staff, spear, halberd) are common to pretty much all CMA and are very similar. Deviation in the weapons forms happens with uncommon weapons (an example would be a hook sword) which don't have archeological evidence of use in war.

When you start to look at common unarmed martial movements among war arts the world over - it looks like Shuai Jiao, or Ju Jitsu, or Sumo, or Wrestling with basic chin na. These styles of fighting are two person drill based - they don't really have forms.

When you use a dao (single edge sword) the weapon is chambered behind a lead empty hand. Yet - if you ever watch or participate in weapons sparring - no one does that. The blade takes the lead - The empty left hand being in front does make sense though if you were to have a shield. Just something that makes me go hmmmm.

If you reverse grip a knife (blade is down) almost everything in 7* still works in exactly the same way it's traditionally taught, except now it's a whole lot deadlier. And - the right hand lead (common bare-hand fighting stance) now makes more sense (with a knife).

After the boxer rebellion - CMA was almost dead. It was revived by the Chin Woo. The Chin Woo used linear forms based teaching because it was easier to teach groups. They did practice a simulated knife fighting sport in the Chin Woo. Could the simulated knife fighting sport be the *realz?

Maybe TCMA is a modern take on street fighting arts.


I think a good place to find answers on classical martial arts would be in the history books of the Spanish and Dutch empires who had contact with Asia in the fifteenth century right when the firearm started to replace the knights sword and dagger.

Like before Henry the eighth it's all King Arthur and Robin Hood Swords vs cross bows and shield in armor...Then for three hundred years the Royal Navy ruled the seas with the cannon and hand pistol. By cowboy days when the six shooter and John Wayne Rifle was popular Asian Martial arts are being cataloged to what we know now with the popularity of styles such as Wing Chun, Hung Gar/Choi Li Fut, Tai Chi/ Ba Gua.


Boxing has Straight, Upcut, Hook/overhead,
Muay Thai Elbows, Knees and Round/Front kicks.
Bak Mei likes to grab and punch or stab with short power.
Hop Gar Crane likes to angle and hit with full weight at long range to follow up with stomping and sweeping kicks/throws.

Tai Chi likes to wave your hands all fancy so you don't drop your sword lol, and so on.

So looking at Southern Shaolin forms they like to use short power like Wing Chun or Long Fists like Choi Li Fut..they like to drop to low squat and block kicks or swinging staff's and jumping up with spin kicks then dropping with low sweep kicks...they march in with Horse, Bow and twist stance and change angles with Cat and One legged stance for defense against kicks or turning to face a second attacker...forms like to go through all those motions taking up the whole training floor shadowboxing against two to eight attackers.

Boxers and Kickboxers like to circle the ring and throw two-six punch Form combo's with a variety of styles they can go Cross guard like Foreman and Archie Moore or fight side on like Ali and Mayweather or go Peek a boo like Tyson and Patterson.


It would be interesting to see the fighting manual for the Dutch Navy when Japan opened up for trade with them a few hundred years ago and just like modern boxing has at least ten styles for the few basic punches in combination it's kind of interesting Chinese Martial Art forms went from military drills to physical culture like take USA Army fight manual and combine it with traditional North American Aboriginal tribal dances like animal costumes or Ghost dance or whatever...combine those two for a thousand years and it would morph into styles of fighting like Capoeira has dance with kick box...China had a huge population and centuries to refine the methods.

[diego]

I think a good place to find answers on classical martial arts would be in the history books of the Spanish and Dutch empires who had contact with Asia in the fifteenth century right when the firearm started to replace the knights sword and dagger.

Like before Henry the eighth it's all King Arthur and Robin Hood Swords vs cross bows and shield in armor...Then for three hundred years the Royal Navy ruled the seas with the cannon and hand pistol. By cowboy days when the six shooter and John Wayne Rifle was popular Asian Martial arts are being cataloged to what we know now with the popularity of styles such as Wing Chun, Hung Gar/Choi Li Fut, Tai Chi/ Ba Gua.


Boxing has Straight, Upcut, Hook/overhead,
Muay Thai Elbows, Knees and Round/Front kicks.
Bak Mei likes to grab and punch or stab with short power.
Hop Gar Crane likes to angle and hit with full weight at long range to follow up with stomping and sweeping kicks/throws.

Tai Chi likes to wave your hands all fancy so you don't drop your sword lol, and so on.

So looking at Southern Shaolin forms they like to use short power like Wing Chun or Long Fists like Choi Li Fut..they like to drop to low squat and block kicks or swinging staff's and jumping up with spin kicks then dropping with low sweep kicks...they march in with Horse, Bow and twist stance and change angles with Cat and One legged stance for defense against kicks or turning to face a second attacker...forms like to go through all those motions taking up the whole training floor shadowboxing against two to eight attackers.

Boxers and Kickboxers like to circle the ring and throw two-six punch Form combo's with a variety of styles they can go Cross guard like Foreman and Archie Moore or fight side on like Ali and Mayweather or go Peek a boo like Tyson and Patterson.


It would be interesting to see the fighting manual for the Dutch Navy when Japan opened up for trade with them a few hundred years ago and just like modern boxing has at least ten styles for the few basic punches in combination it's kind of interesting Chinese Martial Art forms went from military drills to physical culture like take USA Army fight manual and combine it with traditional North American Aboriginal tribal dances like animal costumes or Ghost dance or whatever...combine those two for a thousand years and it would morph into styles of fighting like Capoeira has dance with kick box...China had a huge population and centuries to refine the methods.




The incident[edit]
Despite the treaty, relations between the two companies remained tense. Both parties developed numerous grievances against each other including bad faith, non-performance of treaty-obligations, and "underhand" attempts to undercut each other in the relations with the indigenous rulers with whom they dealt. In the Amboyna region, local VOC-governor Herman van Speult had trouble, in late 1622, with the Sultan of Ternate, who showed signs of intending to switch allegiance to the Spanish. Van Speult suspected the English of secretly stirring up these troubles.[7]

As a result, the Dutch at Amboyna became suspicious of the English traders that shared the trading post with them. These vague suspicions became concrete when in February 1623 one of the Japanese mercenary soldiers (ronin, or masterless samurai in the employ of the VOC[8]) was caught in the act of spying on the defenses of the fortress Victoria. When questioned under torture the soldier confessed to a conspiracy with other Japanese mercenaries to seize the fortress and assassinate the governor. He also implicated the head of the English factors, Gabriel Towerson, as a member of the conspiracy. Subsequently, Towerson and the other English personnel in Amboina and adjacent islands were arrested and questioned.[9] In most, but not all,[10] cases torture was used during the questioning.[11] Torture consisted of having water poured over the head, around which a cloth was draped, bringing the interrogated repeatedly close to suffocation (this is today called waterboarding). This was the usual investigative torture in the Dutch East Indies at the time.[12] According to Dutch trial records, most suspects confirmed that they were guilty as charged, with or without being tortured. Since the accusation was treason, those that had confessed (confession being necessary for conviction under Roman Dutch law) were sentenced to death by a court consisting of the Governor and Council of the VOC at Amboina. However, four of the English and two of the Japanese condemned were subsequently pardoned.[13] Consequently, ten Englishmen,[14] nine Japanese[15][16][17][18][19] and one Portuguese[20] (the latter being employees of the VOC), were executed. On 9 March 1623 they were beheaded, and the head of the English captain, Gabriel Towerson, was impaled on a pole for all to see. The incident ended any hope of Anglo-Dutch cooperation in the area, a goal that both governments had been pursuing for several years, and marked the beginning of Dutch ascendancy in the Indies.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amboyna_massacre

[MightyB]

It would be interesting to see the fighting manual for the Dutch Navy when Japan opened up for trade with them a few hundred years ago and just like modern boxing has at least ten styles for the few basic punches in combination it's kind of interesting Chinese Martial Art forms went from military drills to physical culture like take USA Army fight manual and combine it with traditional North American Aboriginal tribal dances like animal costumes or Ghost dance or whatever...combine those two for a thousand years and it would morph into styles of fighting like Capoeira has dance with kick box...China had a huge population and centuries to refine the methods.

1044210443

Your post made me think of the Oscar Ratti illustrations from "Secrets of the Samurai".

I think Ben Judkins has reproductions on his Chinese Martial Studies (https://chinesemartialstudies.com/) website of first-hand accounts of Chinese Martial Arts from the perspective of foreign sailors and correspondents.

This academic presentation on Inventing Traditional Martial Arts by Peter Lorge is very interesting if you have the time to watch it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Y_1tKVvwNc

[MightyB]

it's kind of interesting Chinese Martial Art forms went from military drills to physical culture like take USA Army fight manual and combine it with traditional North American Aboriginal tribal dances like animal costumes or Ghost dance or whatever...combine those two for a thousand years and it would morph into styles of fighting like Capoeira has dance with kick box...China had a huge population and centuries to refine the methods.

You'll definitely like this - From Ben Judkins's website:


Joseph Svinth notes that it is clear that these celebrations had been planned by the Chinese workers themselves and quite a bit of preparation went into them. It is not really a surprise to see the martial arts being demonstrated in a setting like this. Yet it is important to note that even in an explicitly militarized context, the Chinese martial arts never appeared in a “pure” form. Practical wrestling was always juxtaposed with amateur opera, actors on stilts, iron palm demonstrations and sword dancing. It is sometimes assumed that there was once a pure “military” art that was debased by the world of the seasonal festival or marketplace street fair. Indeed, that was the operating theory of many early 20th century reform organizations, including the Jingwu Association (whose very name means something like “pure martial.”) While not denying that the martial arts have had a “serious” and a “military” aspect, the experience of the Chinese Labor Corps seems to suggest that these things could never be fully extracted from the other cultural factors that traditionally surrounded these fighting systems, even in an environment as grim as the battlefields of WWI.

https://chinesemartialstudies.com/2017/09/24/a-1918-account-of-traditional-martial-arts-in-the-chinese-labor-corps/

[diego]

1044210443

Your post made me think of the Oscar Ratti illustrations from "Secrets of the Samurai".

I think Ben Judkins has reproductions on his Chinese Martial Studies (https://chinesemartialstudies.com/) website of first-hand accounts of Chinese Martial Arts from the perspective of foreign sailors and correspondents.

This academic presentation on Inventing Traditional Martial Arts by Peter Lorge is very interesting if you have the time to watch it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Y_1tKVvwNc

http://cfile227.uf.daum.net/image/27120A4355A4A6731731B0

https://si.wsj.net/public/resources/images/BN-DX823_chinaj_G_20140731225849.jpg


lol, your link reminds me of Russo-Japan 1905 War propaganda which has some great prints of classical Japanese art styles with modern 20`th Century soldier uniforms and weapons. The Shunga of the Japanese mounting the fallen Russian is hilarious but not fit to link here.


****erotic shunga (Japanese erotic art) from artist unknown. Japanese propaganda poster from the time of the Russo-Japanese War.

https://www.google.ca/search?rlz=1CAACAC_enCA773CA773&biw=1366&bih=654&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=APwjWtPyFdDwjwPSx4TgBw&q=1905+russia+japan+war+propaganda&oq=1905+russia+japan+war+propaganda&gs_l=psy-ab.3...55122.58602.0.58934.11.11.0.0.0.0.121.606.1 0j1.11.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..0.0.0....0.DphhlSVXqfA#imgrc=_


I`ll check out your links soon, also a good historical link to classical martial art forms I think would be Muslim Kung Fu in Asia..I remember reading in Kung Fu Magazine Tan Tui was popular with Muslims in China a few hundred years ago.

Most of the Western history on Martial Arts just mentions like Boxer Rebellion then Bruce Lee shows up and after the war Karate and Judo became pop from Allied service men stationed in Japan.

Russia has had conflicts with the South years before the Boxer Rebellion so I wonder if like Imperial Russian Fight Manuals from the Tzar's army Pre-Soviet mention martial art solo form routines.

What about 1920's Soviet Union did they have fight contests?

I also read recently Boxing was banned in France they liked Savate kick fighting while the English thought Boxing was more manly. I read awhile ago Philipino arts are a mix of tribal and Bhuddist methods mixed with Pirate pub brawling lol and Sword fighting popular in the Spanish Empire.

If I recall right the English technique was more Viking hack and slash refined brawling and the Latin sword was more refined like made for a woman :)

So Paris liked foot fighting while London was King of the Brass knuckles, I think studying those two attitudes of Civil Soldier vs Barbarian combined with the soft and hard styles of Asia like Chinese wrestling and the more performance Animal styles we can get a better view of the old attitudes towards popular martial arts.

[Jimbo]

a good historical link to classical martial art forms I think would be Muslim Kung Fu in Asia..I remember reading in Kung Fu Magazine Tan Tui was popular with Muslims in China a few hundred years ago.

Tan Tui/Cha Quan (Cha Chuan), as well as XInyi/Liuhe Quan, are examples of kung fu systems that are well-known to be popular among Chinese Muslims. IIRC, the founder of Cha Quan was a Chinese Muslim named ''Chamir'. These systems were still being practiced among the Hui (Muslims) up to modern times, and probably still are in some areas.

[MightyB]

Russia has had conflicts with the South years before the Boxer Rebellion so I wonder if like Imperial Russian Fight Manuals from the Tzar's army Pre-Soviet mention martial art solo form routines.

What about 1920's Soviet Union did they have fight contests?



David Ross used to post about this topic. Here’s a link to a rebuttal of one of his posts, it’s pretty interesting. https://zhongguowuxue.wordpress.com/2014/04/20/the-sanda-sambo-controversy/

I tend to think he’s mostly correct on this subject; the rebuttal provides more historical insight.

[MightyB]

武藝圖譜通志 (Muye Dobo Tongji) is a comprehensive illustrated Korean martial arts manual, commissioned by the Korean King Jeongjo in 1790. There are a total of 4 volumes in this manual, documenting 24 arts of the Korean military.

​

During the Japanese invasion of Korea in 1592 to 1598, the Ming Dynasty Chinese army lent their support to the Koreans and were able to push the Japanese back.

​

As the Ming Dynasty Chinese shared their fighting and military knowledge with the Koreans, it is no surprise that Muye Dobo Tongji is written based on Chinese martial arts manuals of that time, such as:

紀效新書 (Ji Xiao Xin Shu) by General Qi Ji-guang

武備志 (Wu Bei Zhi) by Mao Yuan-Yi

少林棍法闡宗 Shaolin Staff manual by Cheng Zong You.

https://www.chineselongsword.com/korean

Below is a documentary about the Muye Dobo Tongji that's interspersed with clips of martial artist training.
Notice how the forms are practiced like military line-drills.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=142&v=wQyhyPcBQlY

[diego]

David Ross used to post about this topic. Here’s a link to a rebuttal of one of his posts, it’s pretty interesting. https://zhongguowuxue.wordpress.com/2014/04/20/the-sanda-sambo-controversy/

I tend to think he’s mostly correct on this subject; the rebuttal provides more historical insight.

Thanks looking into this now, and Jimbo I forgot about Cha Quan lost this book in a flood years ago lucky we have youtube now, lol. https://mikadomartialarts.nl/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/2042.jpg

[diego]

David Ross used to post about this topic. Here’s a link to a rebuttal of one of his posts, it’s pretty interesting. https://zhongguowuxue.wordpress.com/2014/04/20/the-sanda-sambo-controversy/

I tend to think he’s mostly correct on this subject; the rebuttal provides more historical insight.


I think Pre-WW1 trader links is the best bet for martial art history like by 1920 any one with access to a theater house could watch Jack Dempsey fight reels and try to move like the champ. Why have I never seen a movie about 15th century Ninja hanging out with Captain Blackbeard training Shaolin to raid the seas:D.


French had Native tribes fighting British who had Native tribes fighting Spain in the 1600's.. in the popular port pubs there must have been stories of fighting styles from random Ronin.

[Subitai]

I'm pretty sure I heard that the history of Savate (French Foot / kickboxing) skills came from old shipping sailors. This dude, I forgot the dudes name?.... Said that the French learned at least some of their kicks from Chinese / Asian sailors aboard their vessels long ago.

Wait it was "Salem Asslis" right ???

If true...that means at least someone or somebody was sparring on ships way back. Enough for them to take interest in it.

[diego]

I'm pretty sure I heard that the history of Savate (French Foot / kickboxing) skills came from old shipping sailors. This dude, I forgot the dudes name?.... Said that the French learned at least some of their kicks from Chinese / Asian sailors aboard their vessels long ago.

Wait it was "Salem Asslis" right ???

If true...that means at least someone or somebody was sparring on ships way back. Enough for them to take interest in it.

I wonder if Boxing was developed from the Northmen`s sword and axe and French Shoe fighting was influenced by the warmer Mediterranean
climate like Romans fought in long t-shirts and breastplate armor the Viking would be using more upper body technique wearing 40 pounds of wet furs fighting on snow hills.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/fc/86/14/fc8614c2385c39d94d8db256901654a5.jpg

https://i.pinimg.com/236x/13/87/86/13878698dde9dd84390dc09043f3ffc2--historical-illustrations-roman-history.jpg

[ChungQuanMan]

I know Sifu Wong Kiew Kit may not have the best rep in the MA world - but this is one of the better summaries on this question/issue I've seen (not that it is directly from Sifu Wong)

https://www.shaolin-wahnam.ch/index.php/en/2015-12-28-16-08-45/fighting-with-kung-fu

[Ninjaforever]

well, except that you say "most schools" do this. That is not true so much in my experience and most certainly is not the meat and potatoes of it these days where we are finally at the put up or shut up stage of things.

The first thing people do coming in my door is glove up and lets see what you got.

The reason for this is to get understanding immediately of what needs work. (Hint, often people are leg weak, oddly)

Anyway, one or two three minute rounds and it's not hard to assess where a person really needs to work in their martial skills.

I find that this is an effective means to assess and understand where a person is at and how to point them in the right direction to attaining the skills they would like to attain.

If someone wants fully full on wushu for performance and grading, I am not their guy and I will make it clear. I'm a traditional Kung Fu guy that takes only private adult students willing to work on themselves.

Glove em up first thing and you learn a lot. That is for sure. There is no room for arrogance when that is happening. Learn learn learn and keep learning.

Yes ok! How free sparring in kung fu look like? How can you apply the stance Gon bu, Putu etc. etc,on free sparring match? What are the difference beetween kung fu, and kickboxing? Is there some video who you can show me?