I am very sad.

[Oso]

I've been gone from here a while.

And, yet, I am still ( if i read it right ) the 9th most prolific poster????

That is very shameful of all of you noobs.

Like, wft are you doing????

Training?

No, prolly not.

Cuz, no one is training like we did...back...: "In the day''

So, you noobs are just lazy.

Are your fingers hurt?

Are you not offended enough to write long diatribes regaling everyone in the real 'truths'?

WTF are you talking about now????

I would like to care.

But, 'A man does not care'.

However, I did happen upon a statement I felt worthy of updating my sig for.

Gene must be very, very tired...and for that, I am very most sad.

:(

[MightyB]

I blame Facebook.

That and there's a general consensus. We don't argue much anymore because there isn't much to argue about.
Like in the old days it was all about the big question of "is kung fu relevant?"
We kind've answered it on the boards with the answer of "it depends".

For example... Can TCMA be used in MMA? It depends. Can a stand alone TCMA work by itself in MMA? Absolutely not. Can TCMA principles and techniques work in MMA? Yes.

[GeneChing]

...the flame wars have all moved to social media. And you know, I'm okay with that. ;)

Our views are still up and that's what counts, at least in terms of the long game. The nice thing about our ol' forum here over social networks is that our forum is a searchable database. So, anyone looking up pretty much anything about Chinese martial arts on the web will land here eventually. The forum is like a magnet even if fewer people post here anymore. That's why we're still getting so many views. That's why I post items from the newsfeeds here every working day. It keeps feeding our crowd sourced archives. :cool:

And you're right Oso. I am very very tired. No rest for the wicked. But my qigong keeps me moving forward. Still miles to go before I sleep. :)

[Oso]

in before someone wants to debate MightyB's post, lol.

nice poetic reference there, Gene. I knew I knew it from somewhere but had thought it might be a Grateful Dead lyric. But, Frost. Well done. :)

i even mostly quit FB for personal use, just have my business page up...and it's a pretty sad one at that...need to make more money to pay someone to manage that crap for me.

anyways, cheers everyone!

[MightyB]

LOL - I miss the flame wars! My job has me sitting for long periods at a computer waiting for video clips to render. The flame wars at least kept me amused throughout the day.

I figured someone would jump all over my post and we could get this old thing to flame up again. I must be losing my forum fu ability. I flip flop back and forth about quitting FB. Part of my job has me managing a couple of pages, but my personal one... idk. It's ok I guess.

[Oso]

i'm currently doing anything but my taxes...lol.

i got my pool contractor's license here in FL last year. going to be a bit of an uphill battle against the status quo down here...South FL is full of selfish, self-centered people at best...crooks and thieves at their worst.

i had to leave FB...the nonsense was too much for me. and, really, the fake friend thing. FB makes friendships too casual a thing. I recently re-activated my personal account because of a death in the family...not a **** thing has changed. Turning it back off.

[GeneChing]

LOL - I miss the flame wars!

I don't. Sure, there was an intrinsic entertainment value. But it reminded me of what I've read about ancient Roman gladiatorial events where they'd have the warm up fights (the undercard) be two blind slaves with knives. Plus I had to be the one to sort it all out when some one got all butt hurt and called for the Ban Hammer.

Remember the Ban Hammer? I miss that. Haven't had to ban anyone in a while.

I hope this doesn't jinx me. I got work to do... ;)

[diego]

I don't. Sure, there was an intrinsic entertainment value. But it reminded me of what I've read about ancient Roman gladiatorial events where they'd have the warm up fights (the undercard) be two blind slaves with knives. Plus I had to be the one to sort it all out when some one got all butt hurt and called for the Ban Hammer.

Remember the Ban Hammer? I miss that. Haven't had to ban anyone in a while.

I hope this doesn't jinx me. I got work to do... ;)

I noticed a month ago all of the martial art forums are not really talking, like Sherdog and Bullshido it`s all just highlights of last weeks fight and how much they benched yesterday:D

I think it`s more than that there hasn`t really been a big Kung Fu movie since maybe Kung Fu Hustle like a good stand alone story like Enter The Dragon or 5 Deadly Venoms, I wonder if Martial Arts is going through a phase of old age like John Wayne Westerns from the 1930`s to 1990`s with Back To The Future 3 and Unforgiven the Western kind of died out. Van Damme and Rocky are old now, Martial Art Cinema and Media had a good run from the few years of hard work Bruce Lee put into his films and image before he passed away. It was a **** good run lol looking at it now older than Bruce when he passed. Like he picked up some Nunchuks and Hollywood made Billions from the James Bond Karate Chop Death Claw to Marvel Movies on Netflix.

Traditional Martial Arts won`t go anywhere there are enough family styles passing it on to the next generation but western youth are playing video games online now, in the 80`s and early 90`s when Karate was King we spent a lot of time in the Video Game arcade lol but the west was at it`s worst stats for crime rate in 1993 so martial arts were huge with the youth street fighting outside the local 711`s after playing Mortal Kombat.



One thing Hollywood is having a problem with from the marketing department and the whole diversity campaign is say you have an hour long sitcom with a few minutes of commercials, now 1 page equals 1 minute of script so you have around 50 pages to fill up with story. So you have a script about a wooden doll who wants to be a real boy but marketing says we should get the new pink, green, blue and silver actors into the sitcom it will get so many likes on your favorite social media platform lol. So they bring in a few diverse actors to bring in new fans but what that means for the actual writer who really wants to tell his story about the wooden dolls dreams he now has to write 5 pages for the pink guy and 5 pages for the green guy and so on where in the end it turns out as 20 minutes of diversity marketing and 30 minutes spent on the 3.5 star Rating Pinochio remake which makes $70 million and the original which just spent 50 minutes on the wooden doll`s story and the events he went through which got 5 star rating for 60 years sold a cool billion in Merch.

sometimes a $2 million dollar low budget all Hong Kong Kung Fu flick can be more enjoyable than new mega million dollar blockbusters and the youth would rather play fortnight online than train a few hours Kata like the Van Damme wannabe`s back in the day.

I wonder what the next phase in Martial Art media will be.

[MightyB]

I wonder what the next phase in Martial Art media will be.

Virtual Reality Kung Fu Porn.

[Jimbo]

I noticed a month ago all of the martial art forums are not really talking, like Sherdog and Bullshido it`s all just highlights of last weeks fight and how much they benched yesterday:D

I think it`s more than that there hasn`t really been a big Kung Fu movie since maybe Kung Fu Hustle like a good stand alone story like Enter The Dragon or 5 Deadly Venoms, I wonder if Martial Arts is going through a phase of old age like John Wayne Westerns from the 1930`s to 1990`s with Back To The Future 3 and Unforgiven the Western kind of died out. Van Damme and Rocky are old now, Martial Art Cinema and Media had a good run from the few years of hard work Bruce Lee put into his films and image before he passed away. It was a **** good run lol looking at it now older than Bruce when he passed. Like he picked up some Nunchuks and Hollywood made Billions from the James Bond Karate Chop Death Claw to Marvel Movies on Netflix.

Traditional Martial Arts won`t go anywhere there are enough family styles passing it on to the next generation but western youth are playing video games online now, in the 80`s and early 90`s when Karate was King we spent a lot of time in the Video Game arcade lol but the west was at it`s worst stats for crime rate in 1993 so martial arts were huge with the youth street fighting outside the local 711`s after playing Mortal Kombat.



One thing Hollywood is having a problem with from the marketing department and the whole diversity campaign is say you have an hour long sitcom with a few minutes of commercials, now 1 page equals 1 minute of script so you have around 50 pages to fill up with story. So you have a script about a wooden doll who wants to be a real boy but marketing says we should get the new pink, green, blue and silver actors into the sitcom it will get so many likes on your favorite social media platform lol. So they bring in a few diverse actors to bring in new fans but what that means for the actual writer who really wants to tell his story about the wooden dolls dreams he now has to write 5 pages for the pink guy and 5 pages for the green guy and so on where in the end it turns out as 20 minutes of diversity marketing and 30 minutes spent on the 3.5 star Rating Pinochio remake which makes $70 million and the original which just spent 50 minutes on the wooden doll`s story and the events he went through which got 5 star rating for 60 years sold a cool billion in Merch.

sometimes a $2 million dollar low budget all Hong Kong Kung Fu flick can be more enjoyable than new mega million dollar blockbusters and the youth would rather play fortnight online than train a few hours Kata like the Van Damme wannabe`s back in the day.

I wonder what the next phase in Martial Art media will be.

Even if someone came out with a really great new MA movie, it wouldn't boost the popularity of 'traditional' MA. Everything now is MMA, BJJ, MT, etc. The rest seems mostly relegated to afternoon day care centers. Movies aren't the influence they once were, and unlike the past, information is everywhere and virtually instantaneous. The martial arts stars of today are the name MMA fighters. They are the MA-related people that millennials want to emulate, if anyone at all. The rest just sit on their a$$es, watch MMA fighting on their TVs or phones, and think they are experts because they watch it a lot.

The most popular and influential MA movie in the past decade in the West was the first Kung Fu Panda. Period. And even that didn't really inspire kids to study kung fu, if it was even available for them. Movies today, no matter how well-made (or not), lack the impact that they had in decades past. The Bladerunner sequel, arguably an excellent movie, came and went with barely a sigh.

[Jimbo]

I blame Facebook.

That and there's a general consensus. We don't argue much anymore because there isn't much to argue about.
Like in the old days it was all about the big question of "is kung fu relevant?"
We kind've answered it on the boards with the answer of "it depends".

For example... Can TCMA be used in MMA? It depends. Can a stand alone TCMA work by itself in MMA? Absolutely not. Can TCMA principles and techniques work in MMA? Yes.

You can say that about ANY 'stand-alone' martial art/martial sport. Including karate, TKD, Hapkido, Krav Maga, western boxing, Muay Thai, American kickboxing, American 'Combat Karate', Judo, Kali, Silat, Savate, etc., etc. They all must be modified/added to in order to work in the sport of MMA. AFAIK, nobody has even attempted to use Krav Maga, emtpy-handed Kali, Hapkido, Savate, etc., in the cage, yet people don't seem to question their worth.

[Jimbo]

...the flame wars have all moved to social media. And you know, I'm okay with that. ;)

Our views are still up and that's what counts, at least in terms of the long game. The nice thing about our ol' forum here over social networks is that our forum is a searchable database. So, anyone looking up pretty much anything about Chinese martial arts on the web will land here eventually. The forum is like a magnet even if fewer people post here anymore. That's why we're still getting so many views. That's why I post items from the newsfeeds here every working day. It keeps feeding our crowd sourced archives. :cool:

And you're right Oso. I am very very tired. No rest for the wicked. But my qigong keeps me moving forward. Still miles to go before I sleep. :)

Yeah, posting has been WAY down (hearing crickets) here since around 2013.

I've been a member of another forum that is knife-related (bladeforums) for as long or longer than I've been here, and that forum has shown no signs of slowing down at all. If anything, that one and its subforums have grown over the years. It's a pretty gigantic forum. So IMO, it's posting about MA online, particularly TMA/TCMA, that has dropped way down, probably reflecting the amount of participation in them.

[GeneChing]

I've been a member of another forum that is knife-related (bladeforums) for as long or longer than I've been here, and that forum has shown no signs of slowing down at all. If anything, that one and its subforums have grown over the years. It's a pretty gigantic forum. So IMO, it's posting about MA online, particularly TMA/TCMA, that has dropped way down, probably reflecting the amount of participation in them.

Interesting. TMA & TCMA sales are still good though. It's doing fine economically, at least from our unique business perspective.

[Jimbo]

Interesting. TMA & TCMA sales are still good though. It's doing fine economically, at least from our unique business perspective.

Well, that's good to hear.

It's interesting how the big names in MA from back in the '60s to the early '90s are (or seem) mostly forgotten. Almost a decade ago, my CLF sifu set up a table at a Grand Nationals tournament to sell, among other things, a DVD that featured rare footage transferred from films he had taken in the late '60s through the '70s, of various name guys, including Benny Urquidez, Bong Soo Han, and many other names from the American MA and CMA world. I helped man the table, and I think we only sold one of those DVDs. Others briefly checked them out and said, "Who are they?" and put them back down.

[Oso]

Yeah, posting has been WAY down (hearing crickets) here since around 2013.



...because I left, ofc. ;)



I've been a member of another forum that is knife-related (bladeforums) for as long or longer than I've been here, and that forum has shown no signs of slowing down at all. If anything, that one and its subforums have grown over the years. It's a pretty gigantic forum. So IMO, it's posting about MA online, particularly TMA/TCMA, that has dropped way down, probably reflecting the amount of participation in them.


I've frequented one or two forums related to trucks, the Toyota I have and for the diesel L200 I would like to have, and they seem to be very active.

so, sadly, yes maybe. at least we can say 'member when' lol

[wolfen]

You can say that about ANY 'stand-alone' martial art/martial sport. Including karate, TKD, Hapkido, Krav Maga, western boxing, Muay Thai, American kickboxing, American 'Combat Karate', Judo, Kali, Silat, Savate, etc., etc. They all must be modified/added to in order to work in the sport of MMA. AFAIK, nobody has even attempted to use Krav Maga, emtpy-handed Kali, Hapkido, Savate, etc., in the cage, yet people don't seem to question their worth.

Modified/Added and Subtracted.
MMA has restrictive rules and is a restrictive situation that forces a limited but new combination set of sport fighting methods. It's artificial, that's why nothing fits it.
..
Ray Butcher teaches Aikido usage for MMA but I think it's mostly for groundwork as I think most Aikido takedowns are illegal because of the rules about small joint manipulations and certain types of strikes. A kick is Savate, Hapkido. Krav Maga. I saw some spectacular types of TMA kicks take down opponents on some series broadcast from Japan.

MMA has little value for RBSD, street fighting etc or for general TMA benefits. Generally an entertainment, not worth bothering about in this field.
...

[pazman]

... as I think most Aikido takedowns are illegal because of the rules about small joint manipulations and certain types of strikes.

Which Aikido takedowns? Which strikes?

[PalmStriker]

:) Hey, Guys. Glad to see all's well on the forums ! Time to narrow down your style : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lWyUJwNrtM

[wolfen]

:) Hey, Guys. Glad to see all's well on the forums. Spent a year off-line doing some extensive analytic research to fill in some elusive puzzle pieces enabling me to advance my knowledge base into the unknown. : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lWyUJwNrtM



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lWyUJwNrtM

Good Skills. They sure earned their paycheck.
I think they taught that wall a lesson.


Martial Club (武館) (a.k.a. Instructors of Death) is a 1981 Shaw Brothers film directed by Lau Kar Leung, it is another of his lighthearted kung fu films starring Kara Hui, Hsiao Ho, Gordon Liu and Wang Lung Wei in a rare hero role.

USA Release Date Dec 1982.

[PalmStriker]

Looks like "China First" may become the norm: https://chinesemartialstudies.com/2017/12/03/chinese-martial-arts-in-the-news-december-4th-2017-china-clamps-down-on-the-traditional-martial-arts/

[diego]

Even if someone came out with a really great new MA movie, it wouldn't boost the popularity of 'traditional' MA. Everything now is MMA, BJJ, MT, etc. The rest seems mostly relegated to afternoon day care centers. Movies aren't the influence they once were, and unlike the past, information is everywhere and virtually instantaneous. The martial arts stars of today are the name MMA fighters. They are the MA-related people that millennials want to emulate, if anyone at all. The rest just sit on their a$$es, watch MMA fighting on their TVs or phones, and think they are experts because they watch it a lot.

The most popular and influential MA movie in the past decade in the West was the first Kung Fu Panda. Period. And even that didn't really inspire kids to study kung fu, if it was even available for them. Movies today, no matter how well-made (or not), lack the impact that they had in decades past. The Bladerunner sequel, arguably an excellent movie, came and went with barely a sigh.


I remember when Royce dominated the first few years of UFC everyone said BJJ is better than kickboxing until BJJ guys started to get knocked out, then it became standard around the era of Lidell vs Ortiz everyone knew BJJ and Muay Thai or Wrestling and Boxing I was thinking once the Traditional Martial Artists families grow up with sport fighting you will see more fancy striking combo's like spinning backfist or Tiger Tail Kick. So there is still a good chance the younger generation of family styles will grow up with UFC and Olympic Judo, Boxing etc and come up with new forms from the old techniques. Bruce Lee and Benny The Jet did Boxing at a young age you can see it in the way they shuffle their kickboxing combo's.

Juinor Dos Santos spinning hook kick knock out against Mark Hunt looks like one of the White Crane combo's I learned back in the 90's spinning crescent kick followed up with hooking or straight long fist then rotate shuffle to leaning stance for knock out punch pushing him down...Dos Santos does the leaning knock out as a chasing ground and pound follow up from the hook kick.


It looks like Mark Hunt thought he was going to throw a Tiger Tail back kick or spinning side kick to the gut but the heel swung for the temple. Soon they will be doing low spinning sweeps with flying side Bruce Lee kicks, lol.

http://images5.fanpop.com/image/polls/1032000/1032077_1337430448632_full.jpg?v=1337430582

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ALhirKEkV8o/UabpawAYnhI/AAAAAAAACb0/ti0Jw_aPEa0/s1600/UFC160-JDSXMarkHunt-Rd1-Slomo-3-400-sg.gif

It looks like Dos Santos threw a Choi Li Fut Sow Choi here.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-17ClTbQF6us/UabyOBtSBCI/AAAAAAAACdI/42FWMJya-T0/s400/UFC160-JDSXMarkHunt-Rd3-2b-Slomo-top-KO-400-sg.gif

Dos Santos Hook Kick KO:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsdPdV27EyA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmL5eUySNZM
The Philip Gelinas Dragon Dance video linked above ^^ has similar footwork to the Dos Santos spinning Hook knockout like White Crane.

It looks like Hunt tightened up to block a gut kick Thai Style like lifting leg guard with elbows..a 2 man kung fu form would have had Hunt dropping back into a leaning squat stance evading the high kick then running with a Monkey steals Peach groin strike. lol I wonder if a spinning sweep kick would have worked.

http://i.imgur.com/mfRvk.jpg

http://www.fullcontactmartialarts.org/muay-thai-diagonal-kick.jpg

http://www.shouyuliang.com/images/newsletter/v6n5/a5p1.jpg

http://www.martialtalk.com/data/photos/l/1/1570-1286245000-0cb57c8fbbc31d83cce310cf722a323c.jpg

It seems spinning sweeps are useless attacks in the ring as the guy getting swept is landing on canvas or sparring mats..in the streets wouldn't the guy smash his head
against a car window while falling or if he hit his head on the side walk curb.

Mark Hunt basically fought in a bow stance and got knocked out by a spinning high attack, if it was a Kung Fu form Mark Hunt would be changing from cat stance to twist stance and low leaning squat stance similar to spinning Capoeria knock out kicking combo's moving around the ring taking up all corners of space to corner your opponnent into an opening for the flying knock out.

I think once UFC fighters have been training since birth you will see a more wide variety of striking from tricky angles, like soccer kicks are banned so if you take UFC technique and add steel toe boots with brass knuckles, the whole take down game changes, now you have to worry about him getting up into a horse stance and stomping you with soccer cleats. Or if UFC fighters had better kick boxing muscles from decades of training since birth you might see Crescent kick knock outs used in combination with spinning back fists and long arm overhead and straight strikes. Like in boxing the White Crane stance with the hands out to the side is too open but if you stand up from wrestling you have to stand up right to bring your hands to your face there is a level in between wrestling and boxing where the hands are at the hips so with better footwork from years of training I think you would see more longfist kung fu hands hitting your opponent with your hands like Karate at the hips or Crane at the side before he can raise his hands to guard his chin as you guys stand up from ground level. You would need mastery of ground fighting and spinning strikes to pull off the kung fu power hands like twist stance Sow Choi or long range Crescent kick knockout. Most of the longfist strikes are set up by attaking the groin with front kicks or hammer fists/palms and stomping the knee so he bends over like Muay Thai chops the tree by cutting his leg with low kicks setting up for the shin to the neck when he drops his guard.

One problem with Traditional styles besides lacking the whole steroid Olympic wrestling culture is I think Evander Holyfield said you have to hit a heavyweight 3 to 4 times in the jaw line chin to behind the ear to knock him out by shutting off the brain so a lot of traditional styles don't have that experience from knocking out Olympic Heavyweights. In the 60's it was all point fighting so people became too focused on their power hand doing death touch one strike kills lol without trying that hand 4 times after breaking the small knuckles. Or their style is a self defense method that uses counter strikes setting up for throws so Boxing isn't their main focus or their style is kicking influenced so then you only need to punch him once or twice and follow up with the snapping Karate kick to the temple for the knock out.

To box a heavy weight champ you can't just think oh I'll Wing Chun or Karate punch him when he misses my full body power will make him think twice..you may need that Choy Li Fut Sow Choi in place as the third punch after you wing chunned karated his chin and neck the long fist hook hit him behind the ear for the KO..

I think when more traditional schools grow up with UFC not only will they cross train like Jeet Kune Do in the 70's and 80's before Muay Thai BJJ became the rage, the traditional styles will also cross train with each other taking the best guards and footwork from the short and long fist styles.

[Jimbo]

Usually, when someone does incorporate something different in the UFC effectively, people tend to scream, "OMG! OMG!", then tend to dismiss it as an anomaly.

A good example is Machida's so-called (by MMA guys) "crane kick". Hmm. I always thought it was a "jump front kick", which is a common technique that's seen and practiced in virtually all karate, kung fu, TKD, Hapkido, etc., etc., systems. But somebody applies it at the right time, and all of a sudden it's something "new and amazing".


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_JMkptIuko

The "Superman punch" is also not a recent invention. It already existed since at least as far back as the 1960s or 70s. I remember seeing it in the '70s. Of course, back then I only knew it as the "jumping punch", "jumping up punch", or such.

In MA, there's really nothing that's new under the sun. It's simply whether anyone really trains it, uses it, and does so at the right time.

[diego]

Usually, when someone does incorporate something different in the UFC effectively, people tend to scream, "OMG! OMG!", then tend to dismiss it as an anomaly.

A good example is Machida's so-called (by MMA guys) "crane kick". Hmm. I always thought it was a "jump front kick", which is a common technique that's seen and practiced in virtually all karate, kung fu, TKD, Hapkido, etc., etc., systems. But somebody applies it at the right time, and all of a sudden it's something "new and amazing".


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_JMkptIuko

The "Superman punch" is also not a recent invention. It already existed since at least as far back as the 1960s or 70s. I remember seeing it in the '70s. Of course, back then I only knew it as the "jumping punch", "jumping up punch", or such.

In MA, there's really nothing that's new under the sun. It's simply whether anyone really trains it, uses it, and does so at the right time.

Every time They come out with a new trick knock out that I can point to from old forms I wonder if there was a grand tournament somewhere back in the day in China like an Emperor made everyone fight to the death to see what worked. We know that kind of happened with the history of weapons in warfare and training groups of recruit soldiers for instance Bak Mei has some good applications within 2 man weapons forms where I could pick up a stick and beat down a heavyweight. I wouldnt want to go all Jik Bo in a boxing match, the short strikes are meant to be backed up with short kicks and foot tripping.

I remember asking one of the seniors at Bak Mei if they knew about the boxing Chin black out knock out back in China pre-modern history, he said of course and I left it at that, but I haven`t seen any literature breaking down the Knock out in Martial Art history books like Olympic Boxing medical texts break down Medical Aspects of Boxing Injuries.

If you look at every Kung Fu style the 2 man forms have the same foundations, bow, cat, twist stance and vertical or horizontal fist with hooks and backfist, front, side and back kick with jumps and spins. You can evade the strike like Muhammed Ali throwing Jabs crane style long fist or you can clinch in close and uppercut like Bak Mei.


If you look at Olympic records in sports like 100 yard dash and Javelin throw in 1920 they ran or threw say a 80-90 and then by the 1970`s with steroids in Soviet sports and general medical science in training they went from 80`s to 60`s like 1910 100 yard dash was 12 seconds now it`s 9.5 seconds every 30 years they became a second and a half better performance. So Olympic boxing is better now than 100 years ago. Also life expectancy went up 40 years since the fall of the Last Emperor of China so the idea of old monk masters is interesting. 50 was like retired grandpa old in 1880 30 year old mothers had 9 kids in the old West of America lol.

But then you always have an anamoly in sports and war where guys perform at higher levels than the average joe in their peer groups. I wonder if there was like a Pele, Wayne Gretszky, Michael Jordan of the classical martial arts world. Like an A-Team of royal Bodyguards who had enough wealth in training to take on our modern Olympic athletes.

The best masters of old who made a name for fighting would have trained since birth or been genetic freaks who dominated the local village fight scene. Through centuries of training and culture they came up with the idea of the old monk master, but sports science has our modern fighters retiring at age 42 when in all the ninja movies retired champs should be near the level of divinity lol. But Muhhammed Ali was punch drunk by the age of 50.

Maybe fighters are better now than in the past athletically but it makes sense that there would have been special talent in past centuries like an evil emperor making pow`s fight to the last man standing to test out his war science and fancy new kung fu form.

All the clan styles had beef with each other in history so Kung Fu isn`t exactly open to the full details where as Karate is Karate in MMA tournaments your not wondering if the snap kicks, thrust punches and whipping hands are Mantis or Wing Chun with in the application you can see that it is Karate.

It would be interesting to see that evil Emperors medical aspects of fighting to the last man standing 2 man forms injuries and training development to see how it matches up with modern science in sports.

Has anyone here seen the knock out to the chin mentioned in martial arts books before the 20`th century? Lol in ancient Rome or Greece tournaments they probably thought the black out before passing out was angels putting pillows on your opponents third eye.:eek:

[MightyB]

The way it makes sense to me and the way I explain martial arts to people nowadays goes like this:

A martial arts style name is just the name we give to a particular set of training methods a person uses to maximize their opportunity for success in an event.

So Judo training for a Judo type of event, Boxing training for a Boxing Match, etc.

That's why you see Boxers beating MMA stylists in Boxing Matches, and then those same two fighters fighting in a MMA event, the MMA stylist beats the Boxer.
So of course a MMA guy will most likely beat a Tai Chi guy in a MMA event. That same Tai Chi guy would most likely beat the MMA guy in a traditional push hands competition.

For instance, Gene would most likely beat Royce Gracie in a fencing match. The conditions of the fencing match mean that Gene's training and background maximize his advantage while putting Royce at a disadvantage. Dictating the conditions, terms and location for a battle is basic battle strategy.

I think sometimes traditional martial arts styles misunderstand the event they are preparing for. Sometimes it's ok to say the event is "better health" and "tradition", or "performance". But don't say you're preparing for event "X" when you're clearly not.

[GeneChing]

For instance, Gene would most likely beat Royce Gracie in a fencing match. The conditions of the fencing match mean that Gene's training and background maximize his advantage while putting Royce at a disadvantage. Dictating the conditions, terms and location for a battle is basic battle strategy.

I dunno, man. Royce is probably still in better shape than I ever was. There's a lot to be said for sheer physicality. :o

But I get your point. You always play to the game. Anyone who's ever competed in a real sport knows this. It's a major issue for TMA because the ultimate goal of TMA isn't competition. Competition is defined by its rules. TMA assumes that it can excel in the game - and sometimes it can - but if someone trains for the rules and discards any extra diversions that TMA might encompass, they will have the advantage.

This thread is becoming a throwback thread. :rolleyes:

[Oso]

i dunno, man. Royce is probably still in better shape than i ever was. There's a lot to be said for sheer physicality. :o

but i get your point. You always play to the game. Anyone who's ever competed in a real sport knows this. It's a major issue for tma because the ultimate goal of tma isn't competition. Competition is defined by its rules. Tma assumes that it can excel in the game - and sometimes it can - but if someone trains for the rules and discards any extra diversions that tma might encompass, they will have the advantage.

This thread is becoming a throwback thread. :rolleyes:


:d:d:d:d:d:d:d:d:d:d:d

edit: your emoticons aren't working Gene. :D

[Jimbo]

This thread is becoming a throwback thread. :rolleyes:

Well hey, at least it's temporarily gotten a conversation going, right? ;)

MightyB,
Those are some excellent points. However, I would add that that mindset certainly applies to both traditional martial arts AND fighting sports, including MMA. Many people think that, because certain individuals are preparing for one type of event and may become very good at it, that they're prepared for ANY event. And the common sense knowledge that they aren't eludes them. Because people in TMA and MMA (and its related arts) often become like born-again _______s (name a religion here). People think they're prepared for every type of situation, when they aren't.

Take self-defense as only one example. That's a hell of a broad category there. It encompasses a vast range of things, from situational awareness/avoidance, good health practices, awareness of your laws/legal system, defensive driving, financial wisdom, weapons (hidden or otherwise), and much more. NO MA covers all that. The most effective MA begins in your heart and between your ears. People have gotten killed because they thought they could handle everything. In many instances, their MA training never even came into play, so it didn't matter what style(s) they practiced.

[GeneChing]

Well hey, at least it's temporarily gotten a conversation going, right? ;)


True, true. Better than talking about poop knives (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?70654-Inuit-Poop-Knife). maybe. :p

[MightyB]

Well hey, at least it's temporarily gotten a conversation going, right? ;)

MightyB,
Those are some excellent points. However, I would add that that mindset certainly applies to both traditional martial arts AND fighting sports, including MMA. Many people think that, because certain individuals are preparing for one type of event and may become very good at it, that they're prepared for ANY event. And the common sense knowledge that they aren't eludes them. Because people in TMA and MMA (and its related arts) often become like born-again _______s (name a religion here). People think they're prepared for every type of situation, when they aren't.

Take self-defense as only one example. That's a hell of a broad category there. It encompasses a vast range of things, from situational awareness/avoidance, good health practices, awareness of your laws/legal system, defensive driving, financial wisdom, weapons (hidden or otherwise), and much more. NO MA covers all that. The most effective MA begins in your heart and between your ears. People have gotten killed because they thought they could handle everything. In many instances, their MA training never even came into play, so it didn't matter what style(s) they practiced.

You are 1130% correct. So many nuggets of goodness in what you wrote. I try to say it's preparing for maximum opportunity for success in "X" event as a way of explaining that martial arts training is no guarantee of anything, and that there's no way to prepare for every situation.

Self defense is the biggest fallacy in MA. When someone says self defense my internal logic persona wants to scream: is that really what happens? Is that scenario realistic? So you believe that self defense means that someone is squaring up with you and throwing punches like that? Where's the truck running people down? Where's the acid attack defense? Why are you wasting time with that archaic weapon? Where's a practical gun or knife disarm? What about a machete attack on a bridge? What do you do in a random mass shooting? What if there's an armed burglar on a bus? What about the legal aftermath?

[diego]

I dunno, man. Royce is probably still in better shape than I ever was. There's a lot to be said for sheer physicality. :o

But I get your point. You always play to the game. Anyone who's ever competed in a real sport knows this. It's a major issue for TMA because the ultimate goal of TMA isn't competition. Competition is defined by its rules. TMA assumes that it can excel in the game - and sometimes it can - but if someone trains for the rules and discards any extra diversions that TMA might encompass, they will have the advantage.

This thread is becoming a throwback thread. :rolleyes:

lol, speaking of taking it way back, according to Jack Motley "A pro boxer could whoop most black belts" 1974

Found this Contact in Karate Controversy random looking up an old article on kajukenbo. I feel odd posting black belt link here isn't that like the competition?. It's all archived on google books now.

https://archive.org/stream/bub_gb_6tYDAAAAMBAJ#page/n13/mode/2up


https://ia801407.us.archive.org/BookReader/BookReaderImages.php?zip=/23/items/bub_gb_6tYDAAAAMBAJ/bub_gb_6tYDAAAAMBAJ_jp2.zip&file=bub_gb_6tYDAAAAMBAJ_jp2/bub_gb_6tYDAAAAMBAJ_0013.jp2&scale=2&rotate=0


https://ia801407.us.archive.org/BookReader/BookReaderImages.php?zip=/23/items/bub_gb_6tYDAAAAMBAJ/bub_gb_6tYDAAAAMBAJ_jp2.zip&file=bub_gb_6tYDAAAAMBAJ_jp2/bub_gb_6tYDAAAAMBAJ_0014.jp2&scale=2&rotate=0

[diego]

lol at the main headline.. NEW RULES IN KUMITE ALLOWS PEOPLE TO ACTUALLY HIT EACH OTHER. Benny The Jet must have been so pleased:cool:



https://ia801407.us.archive.org/BookReader/BookReaderImages.php?zip=/23/items/bub_gb_6tYDAAAAMBAJ/bub_gb_6tYDAAAAMBAJ_jp2.zip&file=bub_gb_6tYDAAAAMBAJ_jp2/bub_gb_6tYDAAAAMBAJ_0016.jp2&scale=2&rotate=0

https://ia801407.us.archive.org/BookReader/BookReaderImages.php?zip=/23/items/bub_gb_6tYDAAAAMBAJ/bub_gb_6tYDAAAAMBAJ_jp2.zip&file=bub_gb_6tYDAAAAMBAJ_jp2/bub_gb_6tYDAAAAMBAJ_0017.jp2&scale=2&rotate=0

https://ia801407.us.archive.org/BookReader/BookReaderImages.php?zip=/23/items/bub_gb_6tYDAAAAMBAJ/bub_gb_6tYDAAAAMBAJ_jp2.zip&file=bub_gb_6tYDAAAAMBAJ_jp2/bub_gb_6tYDAAAAMBAJ_0018.jp2&scale=2&rotate=0



https://ia801407.us.archive.org/BookReader/BookReaderImages.php?zip=/23/items/bub_gb_6tYDAAAAMBAJ/bub_gb_6tYDAAAAMBAJ_jp2.zip&file=bub_gb_6tYDAAAAMBAJ_jp2/bub_gb_6tYDAAAAMBAJ_0008.jp2&scale=2&rotate=0

[David Jamieson]

Forums are fast becoming archives of ideas as opposed to interchange like they used to be.
Social media and instant gratification seem to be winning the day.
We are still undoubtedly human beings in that regard. :D