"Important Words on Martial Applications"

[taijiquan_student]

"Important Words on Martial Applications" translation/classic (http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/SpiritSt/xinyi/taijiquanYWYY_new1.htm)

This is from Jarek's site. I especially think this one is cool, but there are a lot of really interesting translations and interviews there as well. If you haven't checked it out yet, I encourage you to do so. Enjoy!

[taijiquan_student]

ttt

"Duifang jing zhi meng ji, wo fang tui zhi ce fang xi zhi."

[Water Dragon]

It's an oldiebut a goodie.I have it saved on my hard drive. I like that it reccomends aggresion and ruthlessness

[Daniel Madar]

I think every "serious" taiji student should be forced to read that.

That's awesome.

Merciless is Mercy.

[EARTH DRAGON]

I agree...... excellent!

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[thumper]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> do not attack the extremities [/quote]

- i enjoyed the read, but disagree with this statement. i read an article in the pa kua chang journal a while back. don't remember who it was by, but it was called 'taking the fangs from the snake' or something and talked of how if you damage an opponent's weapons, he has less to hurt you with and it is easier to then get to his body or to stop fighting.

'either you like reincarnation or the smell of carnations'

[taijiquan_student]

"if you damage an opponent's weapons, he has less to hurt you with and it is easier to then get to his body or to stop fighting."

Using a palm on his head is just as effective.

"Duifang jing zhi meng ji, wo fang tui zhi ce fang xi zhi."

[Daniel Madar]

I'd attack an extremity as a guard break, to set up a mainline attack. Personality wise, I'm too aggressive to not simply just attack an extremity alone.

Merciless is Mercy.

[taijiquan_student]

In my opinion, the thing about attacking extremities(arms, basically) is this: I have been hit in sparring in the arm a lot and it doesn't do much, except get you thinking, "why is he hitting my arm? It kinda stings" If you are in a position close enough in that you could do some serious or significant damage by striking their arm, then you would be in close enough to go for a more sensitive or "fight-stopping" area. Also, if you are in such a serious and dangerous situation that you are forced to move in on someone, get close and attack, then why bother fooling around with their arms? It won't save your life and will most likely anger the other guy more.

"Duifang jing zhi meng ji, wo fang tui zhi ce fang xi zhi."

[thumper]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Using a palm on his head is just as effective [/quote]

as effective yes, more destructive yes, but not as efficient. you can hit his wrist, forearm, eblow, and or bicept much faster because it will probably be a closer target to you (assuming your opponent does not fight with his hands at his sides).

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Personality wise, I'm too aggressive to not simply just attack an extremity alone. [/quote]

me too, and i definitly wouldn't just attack a limb and step back. i'd follow it up with more attacks to either more weapons, or if the range is right, to the body.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> In my opinion, the thing about attacking extremities(arms, basically) is this: I have been hit in sparring in the arm a lot and it doesn't do much, except get you thinking, "why is he hitting my arm? It kinda stings" [/quote]

tajiquan student - your first statement might very well be why i would attack your arm. if i get you thinking "why...." for one second, then i effectively take your mind off of being 'no mind'. like if i had to apply chin na on some muscle-head and he was fighting let's say my wrist lock, if i can take his mind away from the wrist like by a sharp kick to the shin, it gives me that instant of time where his intention is distracted. of course, i have to be REAL good to take advantage of that instant, but that's besides the point. also, dude who hits your arm in sparring may not be going for a good target on your arm, he just may be throwing a punch to throw a punch. there are plenty of very sensitive points on the arm, especially around the joints that do not need a full power strike to cause sharp pain and possibly numbness in the extremity.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> If you are in a position close enough in that you could do some serious or significant damage by striking their arm, then you would be in close enough to go for a more sensitive or "fight-stopping" area. [/quote]

Ah, this is assuming that your strike to the arm is not a fight stopper in itself. believe me, (or don't and maybe learn for yourself) you get hit in the elbow joint in the right spot by someone who knows what they are doing and your arm from your elbow down WILL NOT WORK. this is true from the shoulder down as well. i have experienced it myself, by someone who wasn't even really great at it (he was good though) and i could NOT make my arm function for about 5-6 seconds. i couldn't feel my arm. if you strike an arm like this, think of how easy it is to then follow up to the more "fight stopping" areas you are thinking of. also, i wouldn't just hit the arm and step back to make another attack. that first attack that would, in the best circumstance completely numb the arm, and in a worse circumstance would seriously hurt the guy if my target is good enough, would only be the first move of a 2-3 attack sequence. attack the weapon on the way in and when 'in', attack the more vulnerable areas.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Also, if you are in such a serious and dangerous situation that you are forced to move in on someone, get close and attack, then why bother fooling around with their arms? It won't save your life and will most likely anger the other guy more [/quote]

i'm not fooling with anyone. if i am forced to move in on someone then i will attack on the way in as well as when i'm in. to me, it only makes sense to do so. why save your attack for when you reach the final point of your intent, when you can attack while arriving at that final point?! you can bet your a$$ it can save my life. let's take your version of 'getting close and attacking then'. i will assume that you mean to attack the torso or the face, and not the extremities. think. what guards his torso and face from your attack? his extremities. if you damage his extremities, then is he able to guard his torso and face as effectively? i don't think so. think of how much easier attacking the limb (a good target on the limb) makes it to attack where you want to.

my disagreement with that statement of not attacking the extremities also involves this; i'm in a fight, we are in kicking distance and my opponent throws a kick. if i can evade and implant my knuckles through his kneecap, then i have only followed the principle of taking what he gives me. i see this as an example of yin/yang principle. even if my punch doesn't incapacitate his limb and only hurts him, i just put a seed of though in this guy's head that i will hurt what he means to attack me with. this may make him think twice about using that kick again. if that is true, then i may have just eliminated one of his weapons, and since i have as many arms and legs as he does, puts me at an advantage. of course then feints come into play and the fight goes on from there, but limb attacks hurt just like a punch in the gut does, but limbs are closer to you than his gut which is less distance for your attack to travel which in essence means a faster attack for you which is my point. to me, this only makes for more effective fighting.
i wish i remembered who wrote that article cuz it was real good and I am too lazy to go looking through all of my pa kua chang journals to find it.

'either you like reincarnation or the smell of carnations'

[taijiquan_student]

You made some good points. But I think you misunderstood my comment about "why is he hitting my arm? It kinda stings". I didn't mean if I'm hit in the arm, I get out the notepad and write down how I'm feeling, or let my attention lapse, or ignore the other person. All I meant to say was, basically, getting hit in the arm doesn't do much to me. If anything I'll concentrate harder, because why would someone hit me in the arm unless it's a setup for something else?
I think we have the same view on this issue, just I'm probably not expressing myself clearly. I think kicking a knee, shin, or striking an arm, elbow joint, whatever, is fine, if it is a setup to something else. I just don't think that the extremities should be the targets that you focus on striking. They shouldn't be your goal. But if you need to get inside, and the best way is to numb their arm and get it out of the way, then by all means, that's fine.
My only slight disagreement with what you said is with
"this is assuming that your strike to the arm is not a fight stopper in itself."
This statement implies that an arm strike could be a fight stopper. Maybe if it's some drunk who gets a little rowdy and starts swingin', yeah, they might quite if you did this. But in a serious confrontation, with all the adrenaline and everything, it would be very easy for someone to continue fighting. But, then you said you wouldn't leave it at that, and that that would open him up for more strikes to more vital places, so really I don't have any disagreement at all...I just talked myself in circles. :)

"Duifang jing zhi meng ji, wo fang tui zhi ce fang xi zhi."

[thumper]

:) yea, i did misunderstand what you said about the arm hitting thing. that 'getting out the notebook' line made me crack up. :D
i like your point about adreniline with regerd to the arm hitting. i think i'll need a lifetime of practice before i'm able to end a fight with hitting a point on the arm, but that's sort of what dim mak is all about no? i don't know much about dim mak, but i do know, for example, that a strike to the right part of the armpit can cause the heart to palpitate. with this principle in mind, i think that there may be points on the extremities that if hit with exactness and proper force, will cause incapacitating effects. the meridian that runs through the armpit also runs down the arm. does anyone with dim mak knowledge reading this know if hitting just that one point in the armpit causes heart problems, or is it the entire meridian?

'either you like reincarnation or the smell of carnations'

[taijiquan_student]

Normally I wouldn't just talk about this sort of thing, but since you brought it up:
That point, the armpit, is fatal. You can hit just that one point and kill someone.
Fun, fun, fun ;)

"Duifang jing zhi meng ji, wo fang tui zhi ce fang xi zhi."

[Eight_Triagram_Boxer]

Hey, do you think you could do some research and try to find out who it was that said that? I also agree with this quote and I'm interested to find out who the Bagua practitioner is that said it since I too study Bagua. Thanks for the effort!

ETB

[Sam Wiley]

On the subject of the striking the extremities and what the translated work has to say about it...I think that what he is trying to say is not so much that you shouldn't attack the extremities, but rather that you should not try to fight them. Many times, people who don't like to get their hands dirty fighting will train a lot to block constantly without striking. You can be the best blocker in the world and if the guy is really trying to hurt you he's going to get through, so you must do something to him. This would also apply to people who try to apply a lock as their main defense technique, instead of striking him first to stun him and then trying for the lock. Just trying to catch his arm and put a lock on would also be fighting the extremity. We're not fighting the arm or the fist, we're fighting the person's whole body.

And yes, that point under the arm, Heart 1, can stop the person's heart and at least knock them out. A good way to get in to the point is with Slant Flying, striking with the forearm into the armpit. Don't do it as a throw, do it as a strike, and then maybe shoulder press him and throw right afterwards.

There are other points on the arm that have similar effects that are on the same meridian. For instance, Heart 3, on the inside of the arm just above the elbow, can cause a KO as well because it also works on the heart. Striking Neiguan (Pericardium 6) on the forearm sets up Heart 3, so you could use an upper version of Rollback to strike Neiguan with the back of your left palm and strike Heart 3 with the knife edge of your right palm. Both of these points set up Stomach 9 on the neck, so you could follow this Rollback strike with Ji to Stomach 9, for instance (a favorite of mine). Or you could use the move that comes in place of the Double P'eng during Carry Tiger Back to Mountain, striking Neiguan with your left palm and Heart 3 with your right, then chopping across into Stomach 9 with your right palm and across Liver 14 with the left.

I hope that's not too much info. ;)

*********

[Drone]

Sam I noticed you mentioned a number of pressure points, and a combo that you regard as your favorite. Do any of you guys make it a point to hit these areas? or is it more of a take what you can get mentality when you spar/fight?

[Guandi]

>Hey, do you think you could do some research and
>try to find out who it was that said that?

the article was from Glen Moore -- a student of Park Bok Nam. He also wrote another article about this subject -- "Taking The Fangs From The Snake"
by Glen Moore in "Combat" (United Kingdom).

Guandi

[Sam Wiley]

Well, you have to take any opening you can, because if you try to force a technique you will lose. But in training, you should pick some of the major points and train to strike them, so that you will be able to do so with little effort in a fight. Myself, I train to strike several, the eyes, Gall Bladder 14, CV22 (pit of the neck), Stomach 9, and a few others. If you train to open the guy up or to take an opening and then to strike to a certain point, then when presented with the opportunity to do so, you will. You never force a technique, though, as that's against good principles. I have a tendency to control an opponent, pushing him away and then pulling him in, using quick footwork to get around behind him where he can't see and then take advantage. But I try not to force a technique, even when controlling him. That's clumsy Li.

*********

[thumper]

THAT'S IT ! ! !
taking the fangs from the snake was what i read. student of bok nam park eh? i should have known cuz from what i've read on his pa kua, it seems real practical and common sense-like.

'either you like reincarnation or the smell of carnations'