When did your art become internal?

[bamboo_ leaf]

For those that practice internal martial arts.

When did your art become internal?

How did you know this ?


:)

bamboo leaf

[beaudacious]

it started becoming internal the first time i felt chi in my hands. It is a gradual process to make your applications a more internal which i am still working on. Still working on feeling nerve and bone chi, skin chi is pretty full and i am thankful for that

[Water Dragon]

When I didn't have to think about my mechanics anymore. Then, the movements kept getting smaller.

Now, I have a whole new set of mechanics to work on. Back to the drawing board for H2O

[Nexus]

I prefer asking the question, when did your art go from wuji to taiji.

[Kumkuat]

Or maybe it should be when did you figure out how to stay in wuji even when moving.

[EARTH DRAGON]

whewn my movements came from my instincts and not my thoughts.

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[Water Dragon]

Earth Dragon is correct

[bamboo_ leaf]

I would not agree with ED, :)

I ask this because your outlook will determine your perspective of what is called internal.
We can say it’s a matter of perspective but clearly there are things that are regarded is not being internal.

How would you demonstrate the difference between something that was “external” as opposed to internal?

Can you see it in some one?

An example might be if in pushing hands some one uses force instead of chin, what’s the difference?

In most cases we don’t talk about boxing as being very internal although they may have good alignment and punching power nor do we talk of wrestling either even with their ability to sense the next movement and flow with the opponent. Also their training and skill may be such that they don’t really think about what they are doing but just react dose this make it internal?

just thinking outloud, no right or wrong.

bamboo leaf

[Water Dragon]

If internal does not refer to internalization of a skil, what does it refer to?

If all of these masters have Jedi Like powers, why have we not seen even one appear?

Why do the people I have trained with, who have much respect in the CMA community always speak in terms of leverage, momentum, mechanics, and transference of weight instead of Qi?

Why should I waste my life chasing a holy grail that may not exist when I can find excellant teachers who continuously help me improve using simple terminology?

I'm not saying that the Chinese terminology is false, I'm saying the translation is not what most people think. OF course, I may be wrong. I don't know if it's internal, but it helps me win fights. And isn't that the point really?

[Fu-Pow]

I always thought internal referred to internal movement as in inside the torso or from the "dan tien". This would include breathing methods. As far as Taiji goes I know my movements aren't there yet. As far as kung fu goes it simply isn't emphasized very much.

I like to think of internal vs. external in this simplified way. The body is a "cardboard box". The "dan tien" area is a "bouncy beach ball". The ball resides with in the "box". First you learn to move the box. (Most arts that we think of as external stop there. They seek to move the "box" in certain ways and strengthen it. )

Next in internal arts you learn to move the "ball" around by moving the "box". This strengthens the connection between or makes one aware that the "ball" is here.

The art becomes internal when you learn to move the "box" by moving the "ball." It is not clear what connection there is between the "ball" and "the box" only that there is one. This is what people call "Chi."

In a confrontation someone pushes on the box but they do not see that they are moving the ball as well. Nor do they see that you are able to disengage the box from the ball, so they can push but they are are just pushing the box not the ball.

Or something like that....

Fu-Pow

http://www.geocities.com/fu_pow/vmrc-halloween-3.jpg


http://www.makskungfu.com/images/Graphics/Choy%20Lay%20Fut%20red.gif

[This message was edited by Fu-Pow on 11-26-01 at 03:25 PM.]

[This message was edited by Fu-Pow on 11-26-01 at 03:27 PM.]

[Daredevil]

Fu-pow, excellent analogy.

I like that ball & box idea, but maybe it's just my shallow understanding (a relative newbie in IMA - myself) of the internal arts. :) Dunno if any analogies really do the internal stuff justice.

[bamboo_ leaf]

“If internal does not refer to internalization of a skil, what does it refer to?”

I believe it refers to things not normally directly addressed but present in Chinese thought and explanations for internal development.

“If all of these masters have Jedi Like powers, why have we not seen even one appear?”

The YI Chuan guy you met demonstrated what sounds like a good use of Shen (sprit) YI (mind) chi (energy) and body.

“Why do the people I have trained with, who have much respect in the CMA community always speak in terms of leverage, momentum, mechanics, and transference of weight instead of Qi?”

I don’t know, the people I work with speak in terms of Li (muscular strength) and contrast this with what is internal.

"I may be wrong. I don't know if it's internal, but it helps me win fights. And isn't that the point really?”

I think it depends on what you want and need at the time. I though this might be a good way to contrast and agree upon some common things that we have felt in our training that we called internal.

The assumption being that you consider what you do to be internal work at this time. I would consider any person directly addressing the aspects of intention, motivation, formlessness and natural movement to be doing some type of internal work.

The 3 most widely known internal styles address these things directly, they have a method if followed and understood will produce a type of power or energy that is not directly the product of the physical aspects such as leverage, weighting, or some type of technique. Weather any of this development will help a person to fight better I would think would be up to the person.

Fow Pow, nice thoughts haven’t seen it expressed quite like that. :)

bamboo leaf

[EARTH DRAGON]

not to agrue for I hold your knowledge in high regards, but you did ask....

For those that practice internal martial arts.
When did your art become internal?

I replied when my movements came from my instincts and not my thoughts.

but then you said I dont agree? I feel as though it is not to agree or diagree with how one feels. i.e someone says "I feel hot" you say "no you dont" this is becuse people can agree or disagree with what people say but it is impossible to disagree with how they feel. Just wanted to clear that up for it seems that you ask questions and then when people respond you tell them they are incorrect based soley on your opinon! again I dont wish to make it seem as though I am displeased but you did ask how and when people feel and that is not right or wrong it just simply is...........

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[Nexus]

My art became internal when I started thinking of it as internal and it became external when I started thinking of it as external. Then I stopped thinking :)

- Nexus

[bamboo_ leaf]

ED, you’re right.

Sorry about that, my response was to another Dragons post. Water Dragon.

Maybe my question was a bit to gen.
I call what I do internal work because I lead the chi using my mind to make my body move.
I judge my practice poor if I don’t feel the inside connections happening or the changes taking place within my body. What happens inside causes the outside to look or move in certain way. I can see this when I watch people play.

This is what I look for in my practice and also feel when I touch with other people. The people that I play push hands with relate in these terms. The structure that many have spoken of is important but it is a beginning level of understanding. If you remain at that level it can become a trap.

Just as if you remain at any other level you can become trapped by you’re own understanding. This is why I think it’s very important to seek out other people and information and test your own experiences and understanding. This is what many are doing here; this is also why there is no standard that we can see due to the different levels and understanding.

The Chinese are quite specific in their terminology and understanding of internal work. We have many people on this board who seem to be very knowledgeable from a real perspective (self experience)
and some others that attempt to mystify things using words. :)

I really enjoy reading the many thoughts and ideas presented here. All of us are at some level of understanding and practice. I think there are things that are defiantly associated with the concept of chi and others that are not.

If you go to an acupuncturist he/she will ask you if you feel it when the needles are inserted, not if you believe in it.
If you meet with some one who can really do it your experience will be very different, how you explain it will depend on weather your mind is open or you attempt to put what happened back in your own box. ;)

bamboo leaf

[EARTH DRAGON]

No harm done, just wanted to clear things up a bit. I feel as though I have a farily good idea of chi manipulation. I have been involved with martial arts for 19 years so I am starting to understand a little bit about what is it we are trying to understand. When living in chinatown San Fransisco in 1996 I met a famous qigong master, she started teaching me the medical version of jin gon tzu li gung qigong. It is extremly high level and requires many many hours of chi cultivation for the first bit of understanding. After a few years my ability to shoot chi from my fingers called (pinqigong) to heal has increased trememdously only after I stopped thinking mentally of leading my chi and allowing it to flow unresrticted from my concsciousness. you see when I tried to think of leading the chi mentally it was actually slowing it down. Almost restricting its movement through lack understanding and forcing it unlike that of the tao.

So when you asked the question I simply said when my movements came from my instincts and not my thoughts.
I did not neccessarly mean in combat but in movement of all kinds including intent(which is movement of the mind). For when you think about movement it is already happened and moved. So if you move without thinking as in instinct you have become more in touch with what internal actually means.
I am sorry this was so long but sometimes I just dont feel like explaining myself to this length for other people have varied opinons as you said based on their level of understanding so all they do is riducule to cover their own ignorance.

You see everyone thinks they know what chi is and where it comes from and what the dantien is, however most people think of the dantien as the only point which is where chi is manifested or they only know 1 point in the body, ask the same people to point out the middle and upper dantien, or the fuzongshin or huiyin they will not have the faintist idea, yet these are the same people that tell you you are wrong or you dont know anything, so alot of times I just read and laugh but other times I will take some time to further expalin myself and why I post the things I do. Not saying that I know more or I thing that I am smater than people out here for I am far from that but I do feel from my teachers that I am starting to understand the chinese mentality. Now if I could only figure out how they get that little piece of paper inside the cookie!!!!!!!!!

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[This message was edited by EARTH DRAGON on 11-27-01 at 04:10 PM.]

[EARTH DRAGON]

ha ha.... after reading what I typed I incorrectly spelled words when I was talking about how I dont thing that I am smata than anyone and misspelled think & smarter. kinda makes you laugh at least it did for me!

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[matt]

it happened one day when a rabbit ran over my grave or the day i got cold and from somewhere inside my whole body leaped in a direction with no muscular force at all being exerted after doing the same motion for a few years i relized that you could issue this force from then it became internal i dont think it has any limitation you can cause it to happen in any direction it can be used to stop blows form hitting you and attached to ones leaving thats when i knew

matt bugg