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yin lion
11-26-2001, 07:20 PM
strange that people think that what they read in the news paper is the truth but what there teacher tells them they pick apart into what is real and not for them selfs? I don't understand this if you train under a master why isn't everything he says the truth or nothing. You(student) shouldn't pick and choose what is the truth. I don't know. I hear a lot of people mention chi and say something kooky like they dissregard all info regarding it. This only happens in the west. I don't know one of my friends from china that dissagree that chi is real and they don't even do martial arts. Why is this? I'm intrested in any comments on this topic. Also intrested in people that don't believe chi is real to try to back up their statment with facts. no bull, reasons are not "because my teacher said" or referance to myth, that's not real. thx

you must unlearn what you have learned then and only then will you be wise and have knolage

Nexus
11-26-2001, 07:38 PM
"You(student) shouldn't pick and choose what is the truth. I don't know. I hear a lot of people mention chi and say something kooky like they dissregard all info regarding it."

It is true in a sense that we do not pick and choose the truth. If we were to do so, we would be casting perception filters on the world around us, much like people do when they refuse to see things any other way but their own. What is the case though is we do not need to find the truth for ourselves, and question it to assure that it is the truth. If we do not do this we may end up following something blindly for years later to realize that we were being mislead due to our ignorance of the truth.

As spoken of in other threads on this BB-system, we have said that the truth can withstand questioning and falsehoods cannot. Do not be ashamed of questioning your teachers and those whom you respect and admire. To question them is to learn from them, and the only way that they learned what they know is by questioning others in their pasts. If we just accept anything we hear as being the truth or being factual then we don't have the opportunity to investigate those things for our own means to grasp an even greater and deeper understanding of them.

In regards to qi, chi, ki, etc. people believe what they need to believe when they are ready to believe it. Why should westerners believe in qi when they are not dealing with any means of becoming more attuned to it, cultivating it, doing martial arts, energy healing, etc, etc? To try and force our views of energy on someone who wants nothing to do with it only leaves us feeling frustrated and them feeling the need to fight back, often on a subject they are completely uneducated upon only because we are trying to force them to change their views and perspectives on what they believe to be a solid foundation for the way they are conducting their lives perhaps.

Regardless as I said before, people will accept things when it is the right time for them, and if you let them grasp slowly as often our teachers have with us, they will make greater gains than if we had forced it to them in the first place.

Hopefully this helps clear up some confusion.

- Nexus

Xebsball
11-26-2001, 07:53 PM
Well, people are stupid. They choose what they want to belive and what they dont want to belive.

----------------------------
You brake my elbow i put your face in s.hit! HA HA HA, how about that, HA HA!
http://www.systemofadown.com/images/blurb3.jpg

Daredevil
11-26-2001, 08:20 PM
Chi is a part of the Chinese paradigm, much more so than the typical western mindset. So, while I agree that some people dismiss chi a bit too eagerly, I see some merit in keeping a certain skepticism -- not because one does not believe in it, but because (not coming from a chinese background) understanding it might be difficult.

So, for that purpose, constructing sub-paradigms to view martials arts and chi, rooted in more western thinking, can be useful.

However, I also think martial arts are a great way of cultural communication so I use them to gain a personal insight into the chinese mind, hoping to, in the end, create a holistic, western and eastern, mindset and maybe .. just maybe, be a part of heralding a new age of planetary unity. :)

shaolinboxer
11-26-2001, 08:44 PM
Because it is one of those things that can only be experienced and can't really be quantified.

EARTH DRAGON
11-26-2001, 08:47 PM
americans are ignorant! most people dont have a understanding of it so they sceptically dont beleive. Ask someone if they belive in UFO's, if they no ask why, they will likely say becuse they havent seen one, than say well just becuse you havent seen one how do you know they DONT exsist? have you ever seen a flying squirrel? you will get the same answer about chi!

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

Water Dragon
11-26-2001, 08:50 PM
First, when did the burden of proof fall on those who don’t believe? I always thought it was the other way around. If I can’t see it, can’t touch it, can’t validate it, why should I have to prove it doesn’t exist? Shouldn’t you have to prove it does exist based on the lack of empirical evidence. If not, I have some beautiful lake front property for sale in Florida, dirt cheap.

That being said, I’m in a generous mood today so:

The first thing you need to realize is that Qi is a jargon term used in Chinese Martial Arts

Jargon= The specialized language of a trade or profession

That throws out the two most common definitions. The first being the common term where Qi simply means breath or air. The second definition has to do more with religion or other phenomena. In this definition, Qi is the intrinsic energy that joins together and exists within all life forms on earth. For our purposes, neither of these terms is sufficient.

Now that we have discounted the two main definitions of Qi (work with me here, there is a point) let us begin to build our jargon term using common sense and excerpts from the martial classics.

Before we can have Qi, we must have root. Root is a simple definition and therefore a good place to start. Root is simply a base. It is the ability to maintain good balance while in a confrontational setting. For a good definition of a base, talk with any high school wrestler (as that is also a jargon term)

Now that we have established root in our practice, we can begin to develop our Qi. Qi exists in CMA when you can place a part of your body (we’ll use hands as that is a good place to start) on an opponent and maintain a line of force from the hand to your rooted foot. Mike Sigman refers to this as the ground path. It is hinted at in the classics:

Qi threads as through a nine curved pearl
Let your Qi sink into the opponent
Where mind goes, Qi follows

All of the above classics both verify and support this definition we are using. The below quote however, does not:

Sink the Qi to the Dan Tien

Why does the contradictory phrase hold so much clout in the Internal Arts world? Well, it’s not contradictory. The center (Dan Tien) unites the upper and lower portions. If you have problem making this “Qi connection” you must look to the waist and legs. Just move your belly around slightly until you “get it” That’s also a reason for the emphasis on correct posture. It’s simply to get the feeling.

So what do we have now? Well, we have a structure that is supported by correct skeletal posture which provides a solid base of attack with minimum effort (pretty “Internal-ish, no?) Problem is, we still can’t fight with it.

Classics also say that the Qi is converted into Jing. Jing is also another Jargon term. Easiest way to think about Jing the transfer of force through the “Qi Structure” you have built. Basically, when you can issue force through your body without compromising Qi, You have Jing. Classics also say:

The strength is rooted in the feet, launched by the legs, directed from the waist, and expressed through the fingers.

The cool thing is, after Jing comes Shen, and I haven’t a clue to that yet. Hell, I’m just starting to develop my Jing.

Well, that’s how I explain Qi. Not too mystical huh? Is it a good definition? Go try it out and see what you think

Daniel Madar
11-26-2001, 09:12 PM
My comments are as follows:

Chi as a Japanese/Chinese/Asian term:

My wife is japanese. She believes in ki/qi as it is part of her cultural background. Does she have even a rudimentary understanding what it is? Not really.

Chi vs biomechanics:

Body alignment is key to the development in qi, in the same way that correct mechanical construction is key to the creation of electricity using a generator. To say that the motion of the generator and it's construction are electricity is fundementally incorrect however. The same is true of qi.

As you grow in skill, you will have experiences that cannot be explained through biomechanics. It does not require esoteric or mystical rituals. All it takes is practice.

Here's to hoping you get to see the other side. Good luck gentlemen.

Merciless is Mercy.

SantaClaus
11-26-2001, 09:51 PM
Light is fantasy for the blind. They are sqinting so hard, they can't see it. Now without further ado........May red assed baboons rape you in your sleep.

thumper
11-26-2001, 09:51 PM
we (westerners, but more accurately, u.s. occupants)live in a culture that chi has never been a part of. we burned witches at the stake for having any type of paranormal skills. we are scared of that which we don't know about.
isn't anyone gonna be skeptical about something they never really been exposed to before? it's only natural that since it hasn't been a part of the westeners life, it won't be accepted as truth with open arms.
while i don't really agree with most american's instant disregarding of anything they (i guess me too)haven't been exposed to before, i think credit should be given to how they don't blindly accept what someone tells them is actual.

'either you like reincarnation or the smell of carnations'

Ginger Fist
11-26-2001, 09:53 PM
chi doesn't fit into the western pardigm very well. u can get around it by speaking in terms of flow of electrical charge in response to nerve impulses. not all inclusive but enuff of a sameness to establish common ground.

can't c where it really matters if there is a uniform agreement on something or not. provides for richness rather than ho-hum same 'ol same 'ol.

earth dragon - fu*ck u as*shole, america rules this fuc*king planet & if u don't like it tuff sh*it pus*sy face boy :p no other country has done as much 4 my people, jews & chinese, as america. now go back to wiping ur as*s with ur hand or ?ever the fu*ck it is u do for entertainment :D :D :D

Daniel Madar
11-26-2001, 09:58 PM
Um, ginger, that was a bit extreme. While Earth Dragon's post may have been an annoying sweeping generalization, it really doesn't help for you to jump out with the expletives. Unless you were joking? I couldn't tell.

Justa Man, we never burned witches for having paranormal powers in the states. First of all, witches were hung. Second of all, the people who were accused of being witches seemed to conveniently be people who owned property that the city elders really wanted. Nothing paranormal about that...

Merciless is Mercy.

SolarStance
11-27-2001, 12:27 AM
We can't see the wind, but we all know it's there...

)))SolarStance(((

Repulsive Monkey
11-27-2001, 12:33 AM
no one can really argue it either way.From the Taoist point of view any that commits themselves to the words "IS" or "ISN'T" theoretically should be ignored either way. However no of us are enlightened yet so lets try to come up with sound cohesive ideas. Im not going to say much on this topic as people who know me probably know what i'd say about it. I rather think when it comes down to it, experience (or lack of) dictates as to what you do or donot believe in.

bamboo_ leaf
11-27-2001, 12:44 AM
“ no one can really argue it either way.From the Taoist point of view any that commits themselves to the words "IS" or "ISN'T"

are you a taoist ? if not then how can you comment using that view point. If you are, it seems like you’re putting form on something that is spoken of as being formless.

Just wondering. :)

bamboo leaf

Ginger Fist
11-27-2001, 01:05 AM
Um, ginger, that was a bit extreme.

--what?!? i thought this was extreme forum sports, sorry, wrong web page :D

While Earth Dragon's post may have been an annoying sweeping generalization,

--annoying? stupid as sh*it is more like it :D

it really doesn't help for you to jump out with the expletives.

--so the ? becomes, does it really hurt? ;)

Unless you were joking?

--of course about ripping him, no about america doing more for my people than any other country.

I couldn't tell.

--then ?s the sense in having smiley faces? :D

EARTH DRAGON
11-27-2001, 01:32 AM
wow such hostility! what did I say that could make you so mad at someone for whom you dont even know? I too am american sorry if I offended you but americans dont rule the earth people do! and you dont rule the board either so lets keep the profanity to a minimum O.K there are kids that read this board.

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

Daredevil
11-27-2001, 03:44 AM
Sheesh, in light of recent events Ginger Fist maybe you should consider your words a bit.

Its not that we don't respect the military, political and economic power of the United States, (well except for the sad ****s of the Taleban and their ilk) but ...

Peace.

Brad
11-27-2001, 03:46 AM
As an American born and raised here in the Midwest, I don't think the excistence of qi is all that hard to believe in. It's what some people claim can be done with it that make the whole idea sound far fetched. Like knocking people down from a distance or levatation.

thumper
11-27-2001, 06:05 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Justa Man, we never burned witches for having paranormal powers in the states. First of all, witches were hung. Second of all, the people who were accused of being witches seemed to conveniently be people who owned property that the city elders really wanted. [/quote]


yea, you're right, they were drowned. my bad.
but i find your second statement is only partially true. those accused of being witches were often women who were herbalogists and not often land owners. some were even city elders themselves.
my point was that since around the 17th century when the people separated mind, body and spirit into 3 catagories that were NOT inter-related, those that thought and practiced anything different were considered pagans and were killed or ostricized. so we have this foundation in america that basically says anything other than the way we believe in is inferior, or evil, or wacko.

'either you like reincarnation or the smell of carnations'

Daniel Madar
11-27-2001, 06:41 AM
Are you talking about the Salem Witch Trials? If not, which incident in the states are you talking about?

Bridget Bishop... Hanged
Sarah Wildes... Hanged
Elizabeth Howe... Hanged
Suzannah Martin... Hanged
Sarah Good... Hanged
Rebecca Nurse... Hanged
George Burroughs... Hanged
Martha Carrier... Hanged
George Jacobs... Hanged
John Proctor... Hanged
John Willard... Hanged
Giles Corey... Pressed to Death
Martha Corey... Hanged
Mary Easty... Hanged
Alice Parker... Hanged
Mary Parker... Hanged
Ann Pudeator... Hanged
Wilmot Redd... Hanged
Margaret Scott... Hanged
Samuel Wardwell... Hanged

Well, there you go. Now then... If you'd like I can list the fatalities from the Andover Witch Trials and others.

Did I mention I'm from New England originally?

For the record drowning was common in Europe. None of the people involved in the Salem Trials were herbalists. If you want I can furnish you with their occupations as well.

Merciless is Mercy.

Fish of Fury
11-27-2001, 08:05 AM
actually i'd find that quite interesting Daniel.
please furnish away!

__________________________________________________ _________________________ "I'm just trying to lull you into a genuine sense of security!"

Daniel Madar
11-27-2001, 08:57 AM
I don't know how interesting it will be for everyone else.

Merciless is Mercy.

thumper
11-27-2001, 10:58 PM
Actually I don't have any written proof to back up what I wrote. I have just had conversations with people who were more educated on the subject than I, and this is what I've been told. I never questioned them for proof, cuz it made sense to me. Kind of like Chi.
Thank you for your knowledge on the subject Daniel and for showing me that I better get proof of something before I go saying what's what. It just sounded right to me, but you never know when someone will ask you for proof.

'either you like reincarnation or the smell of carnations'

Daniel Madar
11-28-2001, 12:26 AM
It's cool. I used to get punked on all the time for not being specific. I have to admit, I knew what you were talking about, and I was just being a jerk, so really it's my bad.

I was actually surprised when I looked back and remembered how many guys got offed in the trials. Even though I knew it, it's still easy to get trapped into the "witch" = bad women trip.

-D

Merciless is Mercy.

thumper
11-28-2001, 06:07 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I have to admit, I knew what you were talking about, and I was just being a jerk, so really it's my bad [/quote]
hahahaha....that's cool man. i got a sense that you were being a jerk about it, especially when you said
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Well, there you go. Now then... [/quote]
i was fuming from that, but you came with the facts so i had to swallow my ego.
b!tch....hahaha! ;)

'either you like reincarnation or the smell of carnations'

Water Dragon
11-28-2001, 06:03 PM
I find it both amusing and ironic that this thread has literally turned into a witch hunt ;)