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IronFist
11-13-2001, 04:36 AM
Some of the WC forms are done head on. Do WC guys fight their opponent head on? The stances look like this, but I've never seen WC used in a fight.

By "head on" I mean your shoulders squared to him, and your toes facing forward (generally forward don't whine about toes pointed in or out in a stance), like how you would look in a mirror.

Thanks,
Iron

yenhoi
11-13-2001, 04:46 AM
SLT Stance:

turn your torso to one side (left or right)

basically thats a wing chun 'battle stance'.

remeber stances are fluid, so thats just your 'perfect battle stance' in a 'perfect battle'

etc, etc. Different lineages distribute the weight differently.

strike!

Gluteus Maximus
11-13-2001, 10:32 AM
Yes, like Yen Hoi said - if you stand in the yi ji kim yeung ma (pigeon-toed stance), to get into the basic fighting stance, turn your upper body 90 degrees to the left or the right to face an imaginary opponent and let the feet pivot so you're facing your opponent squarely with one foot forward.

However, you're not necessarily facing your opponent square-on at any one instant during a fight, due to footwork, as well as pivotting while striking and deflecting.

The general idea in WC is that you can use either arm or leg quicker by facing square-on, and you also have your whole structure behind each strike or deflection, so can put maximum power into it. You could be facing his side or his back, depending on how the fight evolves and what tactics you employ. One lineage concentrates on getting to the outside to put the opponent at a disadvantage by isolating one side of his body. Other lineages mainly go through the inside. Either way, you're facing your opponent's centreline square-on, whether he's facing you or not.

I think there's a mainland branch that routinely faces side-on though (Pien San?).

Max

S.Teebas
11-13-2001, 10:14 PM
If you face the opponent square on; all your weapons (2 hands,2 feet) are equal distance from your opponent... this is quite benificial. The idea in WC is to not let your opponent see you telegraph your movement, the idea is to move from where your are, to where you need to be with out pulling back or tensing up, or giving ANY clues about the fact that you are about to strike.

When this can be done effectively, having all 4 weapons with this attribute is statisticaclly better than standing side on. (distance wise - shortest way from point A to point B; all 4 weapons are in an equally advantageous position as the other)

Does that make sence?

S.Teebas

El_CLap
11-13-2001, 10:40 PM
I face them so I can reach with both. But I try to work my way to their sides or back. Nothing like kicking someone in the back.

burnsypoo
11-14-2001, 12:15 AM
Doi Yeng also allows for, and encourages, fon sau.

=bp=

whippinghand
11-14-2001, 08:13 AM
Never.

IronFist
11-14-2001, 08:26 AM
Seems to be some disagreement about what is right.

Either way, thanks for the replies, guys!

Iron

PS. Just cuz I replied again, don't stop explaining your positions. I'm just being curtious :)

vingtsunstudent
11-14-2001, 08:32 AM
facing is a critical part of wing chun & is taught from the very begining of the first form.
whippinghand i have been trying to decide whether or not you had any real knowledge of wc or if you just liked regurgitating sayings you have heard & now by means of your your last post you don't even have a basic knowledge of some of your most basic concepts.
what has been said earlier is true- if you don't face sqare on you are limiting your use of all your weapons you have at your disposal.
vts

whippinghand
11-15-2001, 03:09 AM
The irony is that, contrary to what you believe, it is YOU who lack "basic knowledge of the most basic concepts". I guess the whole point of SLT went over your head?

You're stuck in SLT. Sooner or later you'll have to snap out of it, if you want to progress.

That's ok. Your username explains a lot.

Kung Lek
11-15-2001, 03:12 AM
Bong Sao often opens the side and back doors to your opponent.

Don't fight with your back turned to your opponent. :D
Don't go toe to toe, smashing away at someone while they smash away at you.

be mobile, then root and strike hard.

peace

Kung Lek

Martial Arts Links (http://members.home.net/kunglek)

whippinghand
11-15-2001, 03:15 AM
"strike hard" as opposed to ......?

Kung Lek
11-15-2001, 03:45 AM
-strike like a little kitten-.

what else would it be opposed to?

:D

peace

Kung Lek

Martial Arts Links (http://members.home.net/kunglek)

whippinghand
11-15-2001, 03:46 AM
How does one "strike hard"?

burnsypoo
11-15-2001, 05:02 AM
square to his centerline.

whippinghand
11-15-2001, 05:15 AM
nope

burnsypoo
11-15-2001, 06:18 AM
heh.

CerberusXXL
11-15-2001, 06:18 AM
My sifu definitely emphasizes a square on position, but he also reminds that you have to be ready for anything in a real fight. I think adaptation is the key.

whippinghand
11-15-2001, 06:32 AM
Yes... adaptability is the key. That's why square on is not favorable.

anerlich
11-15-2001, 06:36 AM
I'll go for "square on" with a couple of qualifications.

You want to be square on to your opponent, facing his body directly with your upper body as far as possible (taking the next qualification into account), for the reasons other posters including S Teebas and not including Mr Whippy mention - but you do not want *him* to be facing you. you want to be coming at him from his side, or ideally, behind.

You also want one foot behing the other when facing him in most situations, so that you cannot be unbalanced by a push directly back or a pull directly forward. Not to say you can't be unbalanced (with only two points of contact you always have some directions of instability), but it is less trivial.

Yes, you have to be adaptable. But you also need some basic strategies. Centre/central line theme seems pretty basic to nearly all styles of WC. You still want to have as many weapons in the game as possible and be in a position which will allow you to hit with any of them in the minimum possible time. There are other styles which prefer to attack with alternate sides, believing that facing exposes the cetreline and too many targets. Which is right? It depends on who you're fighting.

Adaptability is not as much a strategy as the ability to change strategies and tactics.

whippinghand
11-15-2001, 06:53 AM
"Which is right? It depends on who you're fighting."

Don't you mean, "who you're sparring"? Points ARE really important...

anerlich
11-15-2001, 07:00 AM
I meant "who you're fighting".

Since you raise the subject of points, do you actually have one?

whippinghand
11-15-2001, 07:03 AM
You don't have a clue of what you are talking. The problem lies in that you actually believe that you do. And that's dangerous, for you.

anerlich
11-15-2001, 07:27 AM
That's your opinion. Since we agreed on another thread that there's no reason for me to treat you as anything other than an ignorant troll, I think I'll go on doing just that.

If my assessment of you is incorrect and you do have genuine knowledge to impart, it might help others if you actually dispensed useful info rather than doing nothing other than scorning the input of others. Otherwise, your only role on this forum is as an irritant, and not a particularly effective one at that.

As for you having a point, I'll take that as a "no".

vingtsunstudent
11-15-2001, 07:46 AM
is that it wanking hand.
that's the best you can come back with.
instead why don't you offer us your ideas on the most basic of wing chun ideals.
in 10 years you don't even understand the concept of facing, what an absolute dill you are.
if you think you have some all powerful knowledge then how come just about everybody on here thinks you're full of ?
by the way, those of us on here with nothing to hide tell all, unlike you who hasn't even offered your own lineage to my knowledge.
what are you afraid the truth about how little you know will come out.
vts

anerlich
11-15-2001, 07:59 AM
vingtsunstudent is correct.

mun hung
11-15-2001, 01:25 PM
So what are the advantages of facing squarely in a fight versus 3/4 or even a side lead stance?

Do you shift, turn, or step when applying tan-da or gong-da?

If you do, which way are you facing?

Just curious.

*It takes effort to learn to do something effortlessly*

vingtsunstudent
11-15-2001, 03:46 PM
hi mun hung
i remember us having this talk almost a year ago, it's a shame the archives no longer go back this far or we could have provided a link to our old conversation.
economy of motion is a key aspect in wing chun & having to continually turn & face your opponent to strike & re-strike is definetely not efficient.
there are more reasons such as being able to use all the weapons in your arsenal but if people can not see the reasons behind facing then it is no use to continue.
vts

chi-kwai
11-15-2001, 04:58 PM
You are making quite a broad statement. YOUR WC doesn't fight squared, but I am quite certain that there are many that do.

The wing chun fighting stance many people learn is called 'hao ma'. That which we learn is done this way: From the yi chi kim yeung ma, rotate your hips 90 degrees. Your shoulders should be square with your hips. Your feet should be at approximately a 45 degree angle in relation to your hips. The front toe should be in line with the rear heal. There should be adduction at the knees, hips tucked under and a straight back, not hunched forward.

We place our weight on the back leg to allow the front leg to be mobile. When walking forward, 'toh ma' being short step 'biu ma' being longer steps, the front leg moves forward and the rear foot slides along the ground without the toes dragging rearward. All our stepping patterns emerge from this stance: sieung ma (two steps), seet ma, chuen ma, ngoi seen wai, hoi seen wai, toi ma, whatever.

--
chi kwai

popsider
11-15-2001, 11:52 PM
Yes square on to their centre is preferable in terms of getting the best line and having all options available. This does not necessarily mean your shoulders are square on to theirs of course.

whippinghand
11-16-2001, 05:40 AM
"If my assessment of you is incorrect and you do have genuine knowledge to impart, it might help others if you actually dispensed useful info"

The information is definitely useful. But only to the few that understand. That's all that matters.

But if you like to train in a high chair, while your sifu comes around to spoonfeed you Wing Chun, that's your prerogative.

whippinghand
11-16-2001, 05:42 AM
Many are called. Few are chosen.

whippinghand
11-16-2001, 05:44 AM
"YOUR WC doesn't fight squared, but I am quite certain that there are many that do."

That doesn't make it correct.

Hopefully one day your Wing Chun will be realized.

vingtsunstudent
11-16-2001, 05:57 AM
again, who is your teacher?
you are truely pathetic.
'Many are called. Few are chosen.'
the scary thing is that i think you actually believe the fu(king bull that you yourself rave on with.
vts

anerlich
11-16-2001, 06:34 AM
Unlike Whipping Hand, if I am getting spoonfed at least I have some info to regurgitate.

He can say I'm getting spoonfed in my high chair, but with his attitude, his own mother's likely to smother him with a pillow in his crib.

anerlich
11-16-2001, 06:36 AM
With that last post, I'd like to suggest to the moderators that this thread be closed. It's got me thinking evil thoughts and motivating too many to unproductive abuse.

No excuse but having just read "The Wasp Factory" for the second time didn't help.

whippinghand
11-16-2001, 07:58 AM
"fu(king bull"
Wow, that's quite innovative! Is your Wing Chun as good?

whippinghand
11-16-2001, 08:00 AM
You are a noble man.