Facing

[mun hung]

Okay, let's try this again without all the b.s.

Do you always face your opponent squarely?

Why or why not?

*It takes effort to learn to do something effortlessly*

[TjD]

define squarely

:)

Receive what comes, Escort what leaves, and if there is an opening, rush in

[mun hung]

What I meant was squarely with your shoulders.

*It takes effort to learn to do something effortlessly*

[Martial Joe]

Thats how I am tought to fight...

http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/lolup.gif IXIJoe KaveyIXIhttp://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/lolup.gif
I am Sharky's main man...

[vingtsunstudent]

generally facing is done with the waist.
but then again chain punching is low level & inefficient, so again i am more than likely wrong.
vts

[Martial Joe]

Is WH the reason you wrote that?

http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/lolup.gif IXIJoe KaveyIXIhttp://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/lolup.gif
I am Sharky's main man...

[chi-kwai]

Just because Wiping Hind he is an arrogant, pompous, closed minded ass doesn't mean you have to alienate him and keep him out of the conversation. Then again, if we all just ignored him, perhaps he would go away.

--
chi kwai

[vingtsunstudent]

no, it seems to be being said by many experts on here that chain punching is low level.
sorry joe, you have to forgive me but i have decided it is no wonder so many people see wing chun these days as being limited when you so many people acting like masters yet not even understanding the most basic principles.
read most peoples answers to things & then ask(for one) what ever happened to economy of motion.
everybody seems to want to over complicate things.
what a shame.
vts

[mun hung]

Whoa, buddy! Don't get me into it. I'm not trying to alienate anyone. I just wanted to hear more on the topic instead of everyone engaging in some unproductive name calling and such. Now maybe we can all have a nice discussion about an interesting topic. Hope it works.

*It takes effort to learn to do something effortlessly*

[anerlich]

You have to be able to be within 45 degrees of facing your opponent in order to reach him effectively with your rear limb, which you have to be able to do to use both arms simultaneously in your techs. Otherwise you can only really fight the opp with one hand.

There are exceptions: You need to be side on to the opp to deliver a powerful side kick, round kick or circular punch or elbow strike. Also in multiopponent situations, you may need to spin or turn your back on one or more opponents momentarily, as well as delivering techniques at angles not required in single opponent fighting. (Credit where due: WH raised this on another thread - a substantive (though very short) post!)

Also, heaven forbid, you may get badly off-positioned by your opp and have to engage some recovery techniques to gain prime position. Or you may end up on the ground, 90% of fights do after all ... ;-)

As regards the BS mentioned on the earlier thread by Mun Hung, that's fair comment. I contributed to the name calling thereon as well as WH, though I don't believe I started it. He'd probably say that everyone's answers on there other than his own were BS, but people can and will draw their own conclusions.

[old jong]

Facing is definitively an important part of the system.It does not means to be stupidly rigid but to have a structure that allows the delivery of techniques offensives and defensives.If we dont care about it,why not take up TKD or something !
;)

Les paroles s'envolent.
Les écrits restent!...

[Martial Joe]

VT...I find a great use of chain punches...

http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/lolup.gif IXIJoe KaveyIXIhttp://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/lolup.gif
I am Sharky's main man...

[vingtsunstudent]

geez joe, you & me must be the only ones who haven't fought any other expert fighters,you know what i mean- poor us only having such low level techniques in our hands.
vts

[vingtsunstudent]

hi abman
'There are exceptions: You need to be side on to the opp to deliver a powerful side kick, round kick or circular punch or elbow strike. Also in multiopponent situations, you may need to spin or turn your back on one or more opponents momentarily, as well as delivering techniques at angles not required in single opponent fighting.'
the key word is momentarily, do you not agree though that you will recover your facing asap?
'Also, heaven forbid, you may get badly off-positioned by your opp and have to engage some recovery techniques to gain prime position.'
dare i say it but again this is where standing in stance for so long is vital, to be able to recover quickly & without effort means your wing chun should be part of you & unfortunately this is hard for anybody these days with the limited amount of time we have to practice.
also abman, if i can be so rude as to ask where you live, i noticed you have been training about the same length of time as me & it might be cool if we could some day get together & have a play.
vts

[Martial Joe]

:D oh yeah :D


I believe that if you have a guy in the right position to just keep hitting why do anything else but chain punching?

Your punches may be powerful enough to knock a guy down or out but if you dont stop untill that happens(even if in the first punch)you will stil keep going to make sure right.
so thats when the chain punching takes place...
plus having non stop fists in your face is extremely frustrating...believe me!! :mad:

http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/lolup.gif IXIJoe KaveyIXIhttp://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/lolup.gif
I am Sharky's main man...

[reneritchie]

There's an old saying something to the effect of, if the opponent is skilled, the side is safer, if the opponent is not skilled, the front is faster. Generally, though, if I'm facing my opponent and they're facing the side (or better still, away ;) ) that's just fine. 8)

Rgds,

RR

[Martial Joe]

When you face sideways your outside leg is a greater target..

http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/lolup.gif IXIJoe KaveyIXIhttp://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/lolup.gif
I am Sharky's main man...

[reneritchie]

Looks like I still need to learn to read better before replying 8(. In my previous post, side facing refers to having flanked the opponent (Pien San), while straigt referes to being in front of the opponent (Jing San), not whether I'm standing straight or sideways myself (I tend to stand straight unless my opponent asks for otherwise).

Rgds,

RR

[edward]

for the most part you do face your opponent squarely, thus having the triangle as your guard for the centerline, but there are a few rare situations where depending on the force you maybe forced to turn your back

[mun hung]

I was taught that you may face your opponent many different ways. It all depends on your strategy and/or circumstances.

I'd like to ask again what direction your hips and shoulders face when executing tan-da against an outside punch. Are you still facing the attacker squarely?

*It takes effort to learn to do something effortlessly*

[Nichiren]

The answer to the question lies in the triangle as Edward pointed out.

Back to the chain-punch dispute. When one gets advanced in any MA, the first techniques learnt are often re-discovered.

[Chum Kil]

I use a side neutral stance.

John

Have little and gain;
Have much and be confused.

[old jong]

Salut Mun Hung. If you are doing tan da you are still facing squarely.You are not leading with ,say ,the right shoulder.Your triangle is still pointing at the opponent. Facing does'nt mean you have to be at the same angle as your opponent.You could be facing his side or his back!...But you still are facing him square. ;)

Les paroles s'envolent.
Les écrits restent!...

[mun hung]

The reason why I used tan-da as an example was to distinguish the different approaches to a common technique we all share.(I hope!) This is not to start an argument over who is right or wrong. Maybe we can all learn something from each other for a change.

I apologize for not being more specific about the punch in my earlier post. The punch I'm using for an *example only* is not a straight punch but the round punch (haymaker) or hook. Not a tight boxers hook either. (that would probably lead us into a different discussion altogether)

I was taught to shift or step facing 45 degrees towards the punch. This of course leaves my hips and shoulders at a 45 degree angle also. This IMO giving my tan better structure against my opponents punch and my punch more reach and power.

How were you taught?

*It takes effort to learn to do something effortlessly*

[old jong]

I see what you mean Mun Hung. You would have to turn a little to do tan da against such a punch.As I said in a previous post "There is no need to be stupidely rigid!"...I'm sure it is part of wing chun!...There are also other ways to deal with such an attack; Man sau or fak sau (depending on lineage),using the center line and attacking straight faster than the swing punch,wrong bong sau with lop sau etc... ;)

Les paroles s'envolent.
Les écrits restent!...

[vingtsunstudent]

hi mun hung
i to see what you mean but if you turn off to 45 then can you explain your punch to me. the way i have been taught is go for the apex of force which means unless he has an arm that is 4 to 5 foot long there is no way i should have to turn off to 45 degrees.generally a shift of the waste by about 10 degrees should allow you to block even the wildest haymaker whilst still retaining quite a good deal of facing.
vts

[mun hung]

O.J. - thanks for answering. I know that alot of different solutions can be used for this type of punch, but the example I'm still focusing on is with tan-da.

vts - hypothetically speaking, if your opponent is close enough to throw the same punch mentioned at your face with alot of force behind it, would 10 degrees really be enough to stop a punch that actually reaches your head? Would you be able to utilize the forward energy of your elbow at 10 degrees or would it collapse? Would you get any sort of support from the shoulder at 10 degrees?

Once again I would like to point out that we are using tan-da and not anything else as an example, since it is considered a "basic" technique that we all share.

*It takes effort to learn to do something effortlessly*

[vingtsunstudent]

mun hung, if the opponent is that close then his haymaker would be even shallower which would mean i may not even have to turn to meet his appex of force, i could stay facing & if we are talking about a hook then that is different again although a little bit more extention from the tan should cover this as well & in reference to the 10 degree angle with a hook, yes it should still be enough(ok mabye up to 20 degrees depending on your size & the size of the opponent & also where, again, his appex of force is)
firstly though you should not be allowing anyone close to use a hook punch as a type of kinghit(sucker punch)
yes it could be easily stopped, we try this as hard as we can at training all the time & it is really quite easy once you have a good structure.
forard energy should & will with time & correct practice be able to be used over even just a few inches.(think, are you not already practicing short range movements in the form, they can be applied whilst blocking as well as striking)
as to support from the shoulders i would hope not, your support should come from your waste, stance & correct forward elbow pressure.
vts

[wingchunalex]

facing with your shoulders square is dangerous the way i have been taught and in my oppinion. (don't get me wrong, its ok to face squarely for those who do, you just have to know its downsides and how to use it right). in bai jong (ready posistion, one foot forward and same hand forward) your shoulders are 45 degrees. even in choh ma (sitting horse), your shoulders are 45 degrees. I do not subscribe to the fighting in yee jee keem yueng ma theory. with your shoulders at 45 degrees you can use both hand with ease, and you make your target area smaller. plus you are more mobile and it leaves your groin less open. im just giving my reasons for my oppinion, i didn't want to just say 45 degrees and offer no explaination.

know yourself don't show yourself, think well of yorself don't tell of yourself. lao tzu

[whippinghand]

Originally posted by
as to support from the shoulders i would hope not, your support should come from your waste, stance & correct forward elbow pressure.
vts
Waste, stance & correct forward elbow pressure are not the only elements that make up the structure. Shoulder is very important, and is often the weakest link. With the above notion, I can understand why...

[vingtsunstudent]

naturally the shoulder is important, seeing as though it is used in the movement.
i still believe it is more important to use the power from your stance & forward elbow pressure as you are not emphasising single muscle groups but whole sections of the body for support.
wanking hand, do you believe the the shoulder is strong & stable in this position?
vts
read the lot before you try & make a play on my words you dill.

[whippinghand]

There you go again.... making a fool of yourself.

Keep writing... so that I don't have to....

[vingtsunstudent]

sorry grandmaster:o
vts
'wanking hand, do you believe the the shoulder is strong & stable in this position?'
i'm sorry but can you answer this question & enlighten us all.

[glenn richards]

my first entry, how exciting!

[glenn richards]

Ha, my first entry and i screwed up! Try again. I find everyone talks about stance and elbow force and simply say "just relax the shoulder" yet without your shoulder working correctl with your stance, elbow etc is simply becomes the weakest link. Oh and VTS recognise the name?

[vingtsunstudent]

yes i do.
long time no see.
glenn, so you believe that the shoulder shouldn't be relaxed & that you must use muscular strength from the shoulder.
just me but when i was first learning & used strength over technique i found my shoulder to be quite sore not to mention i found it very difficult to block the strike.
anthony(aka vts)

[whippinghand]

Originally posted by vingtsunstudent
sorry grandmaster:o
vts
'wanking hand, do you believe the the shoulder is strong & stable in this position?'
i'm sorry but can you answer this question & enlighten us all.

Don't waste your time on me.... learn to play at your own level.

[vingtsunstudent]

just answer me this then, why do you bother posting?
it seems to me that you think your level is beyond all on this forum, so what are your intentions here.
you have not answered one question i have ever put to you, which really does give the impression that you are the only one who thinks you know it all.
what's your lineage, is the shoulder structurally sound in the bong sau position, what are more efficient methods of attack once an opening in you opponents defences appear other than chain punching.
these are basic questions to which it seems you can't answer yet you believe evrybody elses answer to be wrong.
you have given us nothing so as to show you any respect.
if you can't answer just say so otherwise leave us mere mortals to play our little games & think we know wing chun.
i personally think you have fuked yourself with all your criptic little answers & now you don't have the balls to answer any of these questions as we will see what a true wanking hand you are.
vts

[whippinghand]

Originally posted by vingtsunstudent
you have given us nothing so as to show you any respect.
Other people's respect is something I'm not interested in, as I have my own. Perhaps, you are reflecting your own interests, which explains why you are attempting to down talk the great Whipping Hand...

if you can't answer just say so otherwise leave us mere mortals to play our little games & think we know wing chun.
vts, that is the most insightful statement you've ever made. I'm actually proud of you...

...as we will see what a true wanking hand you are.
You seem to have an obsession with the word "wanking".... Did your Mama catch you in the act those many, many years ago? Has is scarred you for life...? You know, you can get help... Feel free to e-mail me anytime.

[vingtsunstudent]

just as i thought, nothing of value.
vts

[whippinghand]

likewise....

[When will he get it... His poor sifu...]

[ATENG]

:rolleyes:

[black and blue]

:D Whipping Hand and VTS.

The two of you must be brothers. My brother and I are the only two other people who can argue like this. 'Tis very funny :)

If you talk to each other in this way on a forum, I'd give money to see the two of you training together. The words would be flying as fast as the punches.

I'm going to email admin and ask for a WH/VTS section on the forum. Only the two of you can post, but all viewers have the chance to vote on the funniest line of the day/thread.

So (to start) anyone reading this - please post the funniest WH/VTS line/gag/funny... my sifu is into IT/software and the like. I'll ask him to model the funniest lines into a screensaver for our PCs/Macs.

The cost to purchase- $1 - to be given to the charity of our choice!
:)

[vingtsunstudent]

now that is not funny!:eek:
vts

[Sihing73]

Hello,

I would like to ask everyone to return to the topic at hand. The bickering between various members really serves no purpose and does nothing to promote our art. I think that it is safe to say we all have our own opinions and it is unlikely that any of us will change the others mind. Please refrain from feeding into this pointless bickering and name calling and stick to a discussion of the topic instead.

Peace,

Dave

[whippinghand]

Originally posted by black and blue
If you talk to each other in this way on a forum, I'd give money to see the two of you training together. The words would be flying as fast as the punches.

The talking would come from my hands. Even then there would be no fight...

[whippinghand]

I have a new found respect for you...
I thought YOU said some pretty idiotic things....

No worries, EmptyCup... vts is nobody to be jealous of...

[vingtsunstudent]

whipping hand,
'The talking would come from my hands. Even then there would be no fight...'
i must appologise for my behavior as i didn't realise you were deaf & would be using sign langauge to talk to me.
your right i would never fight anyone with a physical disability.
at least this explains your misinterpritations of some things.
vts

[whippinghand]

As expected, based on your established record, you missed the point...

[whippinghand]

You know that saying: "Birds of the same feather...."?

[vingtsunstudent]

i didn't miss the piont, i know you were being your arrogant little self again, thinking how easily you would defeat me in that laa-laa land in which you live.
instead, i thought i would just have some fun with the way you worded it.
vts

[whippinghand]

more perceptive than I thought. But you still fell into my trap....

As for the arrogance... Careful now, you're projecting.

[Sihing73]

Hello,

It seems that some people still need to bicker back and forth.

Once again I urge each one of us to discuss Wing Chun and leave this petty slandering in the past. If you are unable to do that then I suggest you go elsewhere. I hate to be so blunt but I would have thought you'd have learned by now. The insults and bickering do no one any good and only serve to disrupt the board for the rest of those wishing to talk about our art.

This is my final word on this subject. If you continue to post insults and vieled put downs, or post things of an inflamatory nature, then the person doing so, regardless of who it is, will be banned from this board and possibly the entire forum. :(

I am sure you guys are mature enough to drop this childish behavior. If not, then you will be unable to continue it in this forum. I would rather this not happen but it is unfair for a few to disrupt the many wishing to grow and learn from one another.

As always you are free to contact me via e-mail in order to discuss this or any other subjects. You can reach me at the following;
sihing73@juno.com
dmcknight@rcn.com


Peace,

Dave

[vingtsunstudent]

hey sihing,
how about you get off your moderating high horse & let us have a bit of fun.
do you really think that what anyone says on here is really going to offend someone that badly.
as for whippy, well my only problem with him is i wish he would answer some questions i have asked.
i know i called him wanking hand(probably a few worse things) but as you can tell from my last couple of posts i have stopped & i can not see much slander(even petty) in these last couple of posts. again there only words anyway.
i think both me & whippy disagree with each other on some things but at least we're not sheep & say what we believe, if this means a bit of internet battling i really can't see any problem, besides all that you are the only one who doesn't seem to have a bit of a laugh :confused:

why don't you just lighten up a little, you know even wing chun guys can have a laugh with & at each other.(you should know this better than anyone seeing as though you trained in the wing tsun group)

finally,
' I would rather this not happen but it is unfair for a few to disrupt the many wishing to grow and learn from one another. '
i always answer on posts to the best of my knowledge(as little as it may be) so don't give me this garbage.
vts

[Sihing73]

Hello,

Hmm, even without mentioning names some people react rather quickly and perhaps to excess.

VTS, I stated that this childish behavior serves no purpose. You seem to be advocating such behavior. Your reaction also tends to make me wonder about some of the wing chun maxims. For example;

"Receive What Comes, Follow What Goes, Rush in Upon Loss of Contact "

If my post struck too close to home, even though your name was not mentioned, then perhaps you should examine your own motivation. You have given some very insightful answers to posts and contributed to the board as a whole. However, your incessant bickering with WH, or anyone else, serves little purpose. If you are in such need of comedy perhaps you should try to achieve an "inner smile" or attend a comedy show. I believe there was a Wing Chun practicioner who did stand up in Boston, Reverend Tim(?).

Would you rather this board take the path of the VTAA or the like? You and WH disagree, fair enough but disagree like adults. It is doubtful that either of you will change the other so why put your focus on doing so. There are plenty of people on this board who will answer questions and they deserve to be able to do so without having to trudge through numerous posts of name calling or the like.

Just so you know, I was contacted by another moderator about this and everyone has the option of reporting posts to a moderator. If the majority of people would rather get back to discussing the topic then I see no reason not to.

You know there is another option for you to consider, you could e-mail one another or even send instant messges. In this way you and, whoever, could trade barbs without bothering anyone else.

Peace,

Dave

[vingtsunstudent]

once again you are speaking as if you are some sort of overlord, you seem to forget that you are also threatening us with dismissal like you are the god of kfo.
i am no fool & you don't have to mention names for me to know who you were talking about.
ok, so another moderator informed you of this & it such a problem so as to carry on like an anal retenive fool.
i see worse on every other part of this forum yet nothing is done about it, again lighten up.
i see how in no way this is affecting you or anyone else from posting.
i infact have noticed that our little shots at each other have actually got people to ask further questions, to which there have been serious answers provided.
again i have in this post been rude & used words of a childish nature to prove one thing. they are only words & i'm sure me, whippy or anyone else has not lost any sleep over our childish behavior.
once it becomes all out slander & does nothing but take up space i agree it should be stopped but please lets get real here.
vts
ps.'Hmm, even without mentioning names some people react rather quickly and perhaps to excess.'
' If my post struck too close to home, even though your name was not mentioned, then perhaps you should examine your own motivation.'
'VTS, I stated that this childish behavior serves no purpose'
you see i could also say that these comments are meant to provoke a response but i know you wouldn't do that.

[vingtsunstudent]

sorry i forgot to say that i can in no way see how our little disagreement has in any way or would in any way send us the way of the vtaa forum.
vts

[yuanfen]

Re VTS & WH and Sihing posts:While it is probably pre-mature to take anyone of the list
Sihing's attempt to redirect the tone of recent conversations
is IMO appropriate. Again, the medium(internet chat list) and and
prevailing anonymity and skimpy and even inaccurate profiles
can color the tone of conversations. Understandable.
Whipping Hand's terse style and replies is his choice and no obscenity has appeared in the content. He can chose to or not to give answers just as anyone can chose to or not to answer his questions.
Some of VTS's comments are interesting but changing whipping hand to wanking hand, presuming and commenting on physical disability when the well known wing chun term "talking hands"
was used by WH goes beyond netiquette IMO. Let's get back to substantive discussions allowing for differences in styles.
Lets face it -many of the discussions are not particularly high level discussions. Why not try to raise the bar on that rather than escalate
with offensive language and lose one's center??

[whippinghand]

I shall desist.... for now.

[vingtsunstudent]

well i geuss i am wrong again.
i have odviously offended more than i thought but not to worry i'll behave now & join the anal rentive posters group.
goodbye to any fun that one might get around here.
yuanfen
'Lets face it -many of the discussions are not particularly high level discussions.'
maybe it's just because we are all beginners but then again maybe we could all take it as you think you are better than us & that was just a sly way of saying it(just joking- lighten up, see though how anyone could take something the wrong way).

'presuming and commenting on physical disability when the well known wing chun term "talking hands"
was used by WH goes beyond netiquette IMO. '
judging from your photos on your web site i thought you would have been old enough to understand it was a joke & a play on his words, even the old whippy understood that.
as to talking with my hands i have done my fair share & understand the meaning of the term well.
do you mind me asking if you have had many comfrontation in the many years of practice.
i know it's not something you have to answer but i always like to ask to see if someone is profficient in using the art that they teach.
please don't be to high on the morals of not fighting if you choose this as an answer as i am asking with a hole heartedness to find this out not just about you but all who practice this art of combat.
vts

[[Censored]]

please don't be to high on the morals of not fighting if you choose this as an answer as i am asking with a hole heartedness to find this out not just about you but all who practice this art of combat.

I also do not understand this objection to a little verbal sparring. It is simultaneously amusing and annoying to have the moderator(s) come into a WC forum and chastise participants for "hitting below the belt".

IMO a serious practicioner should keep all his tools sharp, wits included. And WH definitely needs practice, even if some of you do not.