Tok Sau

[hunt1]

Do any of you use tok sau or have found ways to use tok sau in chi sau or combat as a regular part of your arsenal?

[joy chaudhuri]

briefly and precisely responding to the question---YES!

[old jong]

Even more briefly...Yep! :D

Les paroles s'envolent.
Les écrits restent!...

[hunt1]

Very good.Now perhaps you would be so good as to explain how?It seems to be one of the least used techniques in most families of WC.Since you are both from the same family you may have the same usage.I was hoping to have a discussion that could benefit many without causing an overdue amount of nonsense.

[joy chaudhuri]

tok sao is sometimes called pau sao as well-
"lifting palm" and is a very important motion
and practically every mok jong form section ends with it. Lots and lots of applications in chi sao
as well as the real thing. Chi sao teaches the timing in the usage of tok sao. In poon sao- the fok sao properly done can slide into tok sao.
In real application when jammed you can quickly turn the tables and control the other fella with tok sao- spin him, move him, lift him---whatever you want in an explosive way.But youse dont have to kiss him.Ugh. Of course the devil is in the details.
:D :D :D

[whippinghand]

I love tok sau. Much control over the opponent is achieved.

[Ish]

sounds like your the only one who doesn't use it hunt :(

[hunt1]

It has been my experience through my travels that very few use it with any consistency or accuracy and since the responses other than yours Ish all come from the same WC family this still may be a good topic.

[Sihing73]

Hello,

As to an application of Tok Sau there are many and they would depend on the sitaution. Tok Sau uses an upward and slightly forward energy in its application, although I am sure there are other possibilities.

In any event for a couple of real life applications here are some to consider:

Against someone grabbing you in the shoulder or neck area you can apply a Tok to the underarm the area of the bicep is always a nice one and apply upward pressure to break the stance and off balance them.

A nice variation to this is to apply Tok Sau with one arm and a Kow Sau with the other in conjunction with a stance turn or step against a two arm grab around the neck. Try it and play with it and I am sure other applications will become apparent.

When I was doing WT we had a section in Chi Sau dealing with a Pak and a grabbing/pull. I was able to apply a Tok to my opponents bicep area and destroy his structure. I then kept the pressure slightly upward and forward and was able to walk him across the room placing him in a corner. Boy did I feel good. :)

I don't think that applying a Tok against an incoming strike is as easy as some would like to believe. Still, once you establish a bridge you can apply Tok to offset the opponents structure, although I think Pak with a more sideward energy si more common. When done properly the arm will almost be locked and they will not be able to compensate unless they step or utilize footwork. Conversely, I find that Tok is very useful against grabs and the like especially if the grab is applied above the stomach area.

Not as detailed as I would like but this should be enough to get you thinking.

Peace,

Dave

[Shadowboxer]

I was just introduced to this technique at a seminar last month. From rolling arms, opponent attempts to pak da, I counter with bil sao, then apply tak sao to opponents bridge arm with my other hand. My bil sao hand slips around the neck with man ging sao(sp?) or your favorite neck control, while the tak sao hand slides up the arm toward the shoulder, having controlled the elbow, while also stepping in with a huen bo/leg sweep.

[whippinghand]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sihing73:
once you establish a bridge you can apply Tok to offset the opponents structure, although I think Pak with a more sideward energy si more common.
[/quote]

More common, yes. But with the Tok Sau, you have more control that facilitates more damage infliction.

[hunt1]

I got the idea for this topic after watching some sumo the other night.I had forgotten that they to have a tok sau technique.Sumo use's the technique as an anti-gapple move very much the same way you describe.It is always good to see others with the same understanding of WC.
I have found that a tok sau can be used against an incoming attack if the tok sau arm continues with penetration after the intial intercept driving toward the chin ,head area of the opponent.The best results come whem attacking with an elbow out position however,a wedge shape.(best to me means disrupt,off balance and open a clear line of attack.If control is the goal than this position may not be best)
In chi sao does anyone use the tok sau against an elbow in the proper down position or do you use tok against the weaker rolling transition.For control do you apply tok sau from directly underneath the opponents arm or slightly on the side of the arm.Do you use upward force,up and in force,inward from the side force or some other force.I am talking about the most common usage. I want to avoid the depends on the situation answers.Trying to stay with the most basic situations and uses.

[jameswebsteruk]

I sometimes find that when I've fuked up, and maybe dropped my elbow too low so the opponent is punching straight over my arm, the tok sao can be used to control the elbow of the incoming punching arm. The force is directed forward towards the opponents centre, and slightly upwards so as to divert the incoming punch, and get my own arm out of its dangerously low position.

Works for me, especially against a larger, heavier opponent, for some reason.

The chalice from the palace has the pellet with the poison,
The vessel with the pestle has the brew that is true!

[whippinghand]

Do you use upward force,up and in force,inward from the side force or some other force...

All of the above, and at the same time, is optimum control.

But it depends on what exactly I want to do to my opponent, than determines which intention I will use.