Do you guys use speed bags and double end balls in your training?

[Jeff Liboiron]

Just wonderin :)

The object is not to hurt someone else, but to stop them from hurting you

[Cyborg]

Yeah I use a speed ball. Great for timing though not for proper form.

"Box a fighter and fight a boxer". Bruce Lee

[Jeff Liboiron]

Cyborg, have you ever done Wing Chun, and if so, how did it benifit your training?

The object is not to hurt someone else, but to stop them from hurting you

[Ish]

I've never used either but id be interested to hear from anyone who uses them in their training.

[shaolinboxer]

The speed bag is really fun and very zen. You can do a lot of intersting things to develop your rhythm, like overhand/backhands, one handing it, double hitting (rolling one fist right ontop of the other). It also helps you keep you hands up for a long time.

The double string bag is interesting because if you don't hit it square, it boings around wildly. Also you can bob and weave around it. Good for developing reflexes and straight punches.

[wingchunalex]

at my school we are planning to get a double end bag. my sifu has a boxing background. he saise its great for acuracy

know yourself don't show yourself, think well of yorself don't tell of yourself. lao tzu

[whippinghand]

Sure it's great for rythm, hand-eye coordination, and all that fun stuff, but how will it improve your Wing Chun?

[shaolinboxer]

By improving your rhythm, hand eye coordination, and all that stuff.

[whippinghand]

Again.... how do you think that stuff is good for your Wing Chun?

[8StalksOfRice]

You tryin to say yer WingChun has no need for reflex, speed, rhythm, nor hand-eye coordination?

[whippinghand]

I'm not TRYING to say anything... Are you trying to say that it does?

[S.Teebas]

Does anyone know if yip man used a speed ball?


S.Teebas

[whippinghand]

A VERY interesting question Teebas...

[yuanfen]

Speedbags?
Someone sez:You tryin to say yer WingChun has no need for reflex, speed, rhythm, nor hand-eye coordination?
--------------------------------------
Someone else asks:
Does anyone know if yip man used a speed ball?
--------------------------------------------------------------
With anonymity and skimpy profiles- hard to tell... are you sure you guys are dong wing chun?

[whippinghand]

Ouch

[Ish]

im sure im doing wing chun and i aint ever used a speed bag and i doubt i will ever need too, although i do do other things to improve my speed and hand eye coordination

[Spectre]

Does anyone know if yip man used a speed ball?


Yip Man probably did not use a speed bag, but he probably didn't use a Wing Chun Internet Forum either. That doesn't mean that either isn't useful.

While I do not use a speed ball I can see how it can improve accuracy and speed against a moving target.

Kevin
________________________________________________
Continued blessings in your life and your training.

The key to understanding is to open your mind and your heart and then the eyes will follow.

[Cipher]

I use a speed bag. It can help Wing Chun by increasing you speed, reflexes and rythm. I know this was already said but it seems like it needs to be said again.

If you use different types of hand strikes on it you can increase your striking speed and coordination. Chain punching a speed bag is fun too.

[yuanfen]

Ok Ok Ok - I just joined the crowd... the majority cant all be wong or ho or yip. Therfore "soon" I will change my wing chun training regimen to speed bags, heavy bag. tied down bag, medicine ball. rope skipping, bench pressing, jogging, reading the internet more, triathlons, steer wrestling, loaded push ups, chin ups,
heavy hand and heavy leg weight attachments. Maybe head guards, shin guards and play on the boom box Ronstadt's Show me the Way to san jose. After all she was a Tucson. Arizona gal.Hey Yip are ya going my way? Watch out for
yuanfen's "wing chun mo" (watch out for the new Carradine video) soon to be released!It might even get written up in BB.

[mun hung]

I think a Richard Simmons "Sweatin' to the Oldies" video tape would probably be best. :D

[yuanfen]

Mun hung- and By the Time I get to Phoenix- will be not only an oldie but a slowy- like the traffic from Tempe to Phoenix- always under construction! But it's great for structure and centering!!

[Spectre]

Maybe some of these posters are actually right.

Instead of finding new ways to train and improve ourselves we should just go back to the way it all started out. It was good enough for them so it must be just right for us.

After all - we should forget Wing Chun. Go back to the old school and just pick up a rock and beat someone. Why improve on the Caveman style of fighting. 'In Fighting' was never needed by the Neanderthal man so why practice what is not needed.

Sheesh! :rolleyes:

[S.Teebas]

Instead of finding new ways to train and improve ourselves we should just go back to the way it all started out.

Maybe we should learn first what we KNOW is good for wing chun (ie mastering the forms..getting chi sau to a proficent level etc..), before we GUESS what could be good for it ???

Id rather know im going forward, as opposed to guessing. The means to achieve the objective you want may already be in wing chun, so why reinvent it of you dont yet fully understand it?

Im not saying that it is bad to do speed ball practice, but looking at this objectivitly.


S.Teebas

[Spectre]

I agree wholeheartedly with what you are saying.

I also believe that if you are training, regardless of what you do to train, it is a much better thing than NOT training.

I guess my main issue is with people holding themselves so high that they refuse to see any possible use for any other form of training that can advance results in whatever you are seeking to improve upon.

Honestly - who cares if someone trains just like Yip Man, or trains like a mirror image of their sifu. Who really cares if thier form perfectly matches my form, etc.. The main question is this:

Is YOUR Wing Chun working for YOU? Will it save YOUR life or your FAMILY'S life when necessary?

No more, no less.

Kevin
____________________________________________
Continued blessings in your life and your training.

The key to understanding is to open your mind and your heart and then the eyes will follow.

[vingtsunstudent]

i know i have a photo of it somewhere but i just can't seem to find it. it is of wong shun leung with a tennis ball one in the back ground, unfortunately i can not say for sure that he used it though.
i know we use a floor to ceiling made up of a tennis ball & i know our sifu has used it to, i can say that if he found it useful then i have no arguements as to its value.
having said that, the way it is used does differ from a normal one in that it is only used for a type of accuracy training, the normal use of an f to c bag does have inherint risks of training bad habits some of which include problems with footwork, posture & a tendency to over extend in the shoulders.
just like my time on here training should still be found to be fun so for those who wish to use it - enjoy, just know that some bad habits may develop.
vts

[vingtsunstudent]

to yuanfen

'Speedbags?
Someone sez:You tryin to say yer WingChun has no need for reflex, speed, rhythm, nor hand-eye coordination?
--------------------------------------
Someone else asks:
Does anyone know if yip man used a speed ball?
--------------------------------------------------------------
With anonymity and skimpy profiles- hard to tell... are you sure you guys are dong wing chun?'


'Ok Ok Ok - I just joined the crowd... the majority cant all be wong or ho or yip. Therfore "soon" I will change my wing chun training regimen to speed bags, heavy bag. tied down bag, medicine ball. rope skipping, bench pressing, jogging, reading the internet more, triathlons, steer wrestling, loaded push ups, chin ups,
heavy hand and heavy leg weight attachments. Maybe head guards, shin guards and play on the boom box Ronstadt's Show me the Way to san jose. After all she was a Tucson. Arizona gal.Hey Yip are ya going my way? Watch out for
yuanfen's "wing chun mo" (watch out for the new Carradine video) soon to be released!It might even get written up in BB.'

i find it funny that you critisis me when you seem to have decided to make fun of the way it seems the vast majority seem to train-be it right or wrong.
it is also no wonder you agree with whippy's style of posting because again it seems you would rather make these smug remarks & make fun of peoples ideas rather than offering an answer or reason as to why this type of training may/may not be beneficial to ones wing chun training.
a little hypocritcal don't you think.
vts

[yuanfen]

Replying to vingtsunstudent
to yuanfen post:

Look- I don't truncate your name or whipping hand's name or anyones name or make presumptions about their appearance.
A list involves discussion of what people say- less who they are.
It is fairly obvious that I don't think that speed bags and hanging bags are essential to a good wing chun routine.If you don't think that is obvious please re read my posts. There is no hypocrisy there. If anyone thinks that something will help them
that is their business but there is so much to do in wing chun development that spare time IMO is best spent on wing chun
except for individual specific strengthening or therapeutic supplements or personal adjustments to one's condition. location, availability of good wing chun instruction...matters over which understandably they may have no control. Sharing wing chun and attempting to give reasonable advice has never been a problem with me.
You yourself in an early post if memory serves were bemoaning that not enough people were really doing good wing chun from your perspective. Hypocrisy/ Not in this end.
Positioning and timing are at the core of wing chun development
and wing chun's answer to development of motions- right speed and right power at the right time and place is chi sao chi sao chi sao- not speed bags and other boxing paraphernalia which are
suitable for boxing moves and boxing purposes.
Internet communications miss tone... but the claims of smugness is in your own imagination. i stick to what is actually said.
The original thread question was whether people use speed bags etc...my own answer is obviously no I don't. But if someone doesn't have a chi sao partner they can learn from they can bounce balls and hit them etc for development of what we call "self timing"... eye hand coordination-useful but no substitute for chi sao where you timing is developed in relationship to someone else's timing..
So best not to attach labels of smugness or questioning motivation- just stick to what is said.My style of writing warts and all is mine and I avoid name truncating, making fun of people as individuals or usage of four letter words or uncivil refernces to one's anatomy. No anonymity here either. In my profile see
web site reference: <www.azwingchun.com> And in my intro.one of my first posts I explained that yuanfen was shorter and more convenient than my real full name which I gave at the time. A slightly shorter name is on my web site.

[vingtsunstudent]

cool yuanfen
you haver just done all that i asked.
if you wish to disagree at least supply a reason(which you have now done)
yes it was odvious that you disagreed with there use(as do i to a certain degree, which i at least explained in my earlier post) but offered no reason why, this is the same reason i have a problem with whippy, i can see that both you & he have something to offer but as i have said before the fact you just right peoples ideas off without the hint of a reason as to why gives, at least me, an idea that you may think your knowledge is in some way superior.
if you look back at my posts you will find that if i disagree with what someone says i ALWAYS offer a reason as to why i think this way.(my way may not be right either but at least offer the rason)
in return that is all i ask & i will have no reason to be rude back.
please tell me if you still don't understand where i am coming from & i will try to explain again.
there are people who are here who are odviously trying to learn as they must not be being taught correctly(judging from some of the questions asked) & i believe that unless we are willing to answer them with what we believe to be true then it is no piont posting here.
yes i believe wing chun at the moment is in a bit of a sad state, my reason for this is to do with all the sensitve new age ideals of the world, if you know what i mean(no comparison of skills or fighting if you like)
many teachers these days have never even been in a fight let alone the fact that many of yip man's students who are now supposedly grandmasters(with student who have students) never even fought either yet they tell people 'you use this like this or you do this like this' but again if you understand my meaning here how the hell do they really know if they have not done.
again don't take any of this the wrong way as i am sure that not all who have never fought have nothing to offer, it's just my prefernce to also be with a teacher who has walked the walk.
vts

[Kiwiexpat]

Jeff, if you want to try out a really cheap floor to ceiling ball , make one out of a tennis ball, suspended & anchored with the heaviest rubber bands you can find doubled or tripled to increase their strength, then held to the ball with tape.

Have a crack & if you find it useful then good for you, just try & ensure you're practising good WC technique. I stopped using a floor to ceiling or heavy bag when I started practising WC as I felt it was enforcing old habits that I was having enough trouble getting rid of. 4 yrs later & I've recently started using a heavy bag to work on the body mechanics of my WC punch, & have contemplated using the tennis ball, but at the moment feel that it's not what I want to do yet, maybe in another year or two I'll include it, maybe never.

I used to use a tennis ball (I called it my co-ordination ball) regularly before I started WC, I did a little bit of boxing 15 odd yrs ago & found it invaluable as it moved bloody quickly & after a month or two of using that my hand speed & accuracy would improve markedly (& it was dirt cheap).

I suppose I'd have to agree with a number of posters that the main danger would be training 'bad WC'. I know that I used to use it to generate speed for a fast distance closing jab or jab/straight combo to get close enough to put in a power punch (hook/cross/straight etc). Not what I'm trying to achieve with my WC as when I use a jab/straight combo on most of my Sihings I then to end up getting hammered %-), apart from the ocassional one that I catch out with hand speed (not often, & not more than once or twice). I supppse my philosophy now is that I'd rather get close & in a stronger position with my WC & take an opponents out with a more powerful close range punch than trying to pop them half a dozen times relying on sheer speed.

Good luck & good training

Mark

[Spectre]

I would also like to point out that many posters immediately jump on the 'Using Non-Wing Chun Forms or exercises can promote bad Wing Chun habits' bandwagon.

Since when did training pure Wing Chun form and exercise guarantee NO bad habits?

I think it should be a general rule of thumb that in ANYTHING that you do regarding Wing Chun, make sure you are not building or fostering bad habits. Regardless of traditional or modern training methods.

Just a thought...

Kevin

[whippinghand]

Originally posted by Spectre
Since when did training pure Wing Chun form and exercise guarantee NO bad habits?

Given a sifu that actually KNOWS and UNDERSTANDS Wing Chun, and a student willing to TRAIN seriously, there is a guarantee.

The question is how many sifus actually KNOW and UNDERSTAND, as opposed to filling in the holes with meaningless exercises, such as those upon which this thread is based?

And how many students are actually willing to TRAIN seriously enough, as opposed to needing to make their training fun and exciting, and filling in that gap with meaningless exercises, such as those upon which this thread is based?

We have an abundance of sifus filling in the gaps with speed bags, sparring, philosophy, and an abundance of students wanting to play that game. Few of the others.

[Spectre]

And how many students are actually willing to TRAIN seriously enough, as opposed to needing to make their training fun and exciting, and filling in that gap with meaningless exercises, such as those upon which this thread is based?

So do you TRAIN in Wing Chun because you enjoy it, or because you have to?

Please show me the Wing Chun Kuit that says training with a speedbag is meaningless. Exactly who speaks for Wing Chun as a whole to actually say what is meaningless and what is not?

I do agree with you Whipping Hand about sifus filling in gaps and not truly knowing themselves what the difference is between individuality and a bad habit.

Between those that train to the point of futility, and those that do not train in a meaningful manner, where is the common ground and who defines useful or meaningless?

Kevin

[Kuen]

I use a Muay Thai bag because it's so big and heavy I know if my kicks are hard plus I get good feed back from punches so I know I have a solid horse. The heavy bag has been used in WC and Kung Fu for years. I've got books with pictures of WSL using one and in some pictures of Yip Man's various classes I've seen them as well. Usually, they appeared to be just bags filled with saw dust or sand or something and hung from the ceiling by a rope or chain.

[whippinghand]

Originally posted by Spectre
So do you TRAIN in Wing Chun because you enjoy it, or because you have to?

Neither

Please show me the Wing Chun Kuit that says training with a speedbag is meaningless.

Who wrote the Kuit?

Exactly who speaks for Wing Chun as a whole to actually say what is meaningless and what is not?

Those who KNOW and UNDERSTAND.

Between those that train to the point of futility, and those that do not train in a meaningful manner, where is the common ground
There isn't one.

who defines useful or meaningless?

Those who KNOW and UNDERSTAND.

[Spectre]

Ya know what Whipping Hand - as usual I look at your answer and just want to shove your arrogance right where it belongs.

But...

Instead I thought about your answer long and hard and to some strange level I think I understand what you are trying to say. I am sure that you will correct me if I am wrong however.

If an individual KNOWS and UNDERSTANDS that what they are doing, REGARDLESS of how they learned or obtained thier skill, is working for them absolutely, then that is the only true gauge they need to worry about.

So don't worry about what this sifu or that sifu thinks or says about what you are doing because once the circle comes back to the beginning, the individual is always his own student, sifu, and master.

Kevin

[whippinghand]

Originally posted by Spectre
Ya know what Whipping Hand - as usual I look at your answer and just want to shove your arrogance right where it belongs.
I know. One question: Who is the BEST person in recognizing arrogance?

As for what you stated above, not exactly.

[yuanfen]

Spectre sez:
(1)Please show me the Wing Chun Kuit that says training with a speedbag is meaningless. Exactly who speaks for Wing Chun as a whole to actually say what is meaningless and what is not? .........
(2) So don't worry about what this sifu or that sifu thinks or says about what you are doing because once the circle comes back to the beginning, the individual is always his own student, sifu, and master.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One has to distinguish between Yip Man's wing chun and things like JKD and Wing Chun Do which have slight episodical connections with the art. Sure one can 'fight" with many arts and there are good fighters who have had no martial arts. But if learning wing chun is the objective one needs a knowledgeable teacher. Without a knowledgeable guide you can be strong, fast
etc but you dont learn wing chun. Even the kuen kuit are not
self evident biblical truths which newbies can learn wing chun from. Interestingly, Wong Shon Leung (see David Peterson's work on WSL) said this about Yip Man and his teaching of wc:

"Grandmaster Yip man hada different attitude to that which I have. He used to believe that teaching one good student* would be better than teaching ten bad ones. Hence, he would not spend too much time
with a student* whom he thought not worthy of his time. This is why some teachers of wing chun teach in different manners. From Yip Man's one word of explanation they may gotten the wrong meaning which they now pass on. Their grasp of the ideas which Yip Man gave* depended very much on their intelligence,
attendance in class, and so, on their training attitude. This not a criticism of Yip man, but rather it reflects
the attitude of the time which was very traditional." (p.59)

This helps explain the confusions about the art in moving from its roots (from good food to chop suey)and is magnified
by the incomplete capacities of internet debates on the internet.
There is a difference in learning the depth of the sitar as a source of music and strumming a guitar in imitation- though the latter can give pleasure-. The self taught are unlikely to understand the world of the former. Saying this is not smugness or arrogance-
but saying something very specific to newbies- spend time and effort in seeking out a knowledgeable wing chun teacher if you want to learn wing chun. Sure you can be on your own- but as in a relay race only after proper training and the proper passing of the baton can you take off showing your own skill development..

[Spectre]

First off I would like to thank you for your thoughtful post. I fully understand the point that you are trying to convey.

I hope that you are fully educated in JKD, JF/JKD, and Wing Chun Do before claiming that they have only a slight, episodical connection to Wing Chun. While I can appreciate that JKD in general may have absolutely NO connection with WC (based on the style vs. concept idea and the mixing of several styles), you may be surprised as to how much of a connection Jun Fan and Wing Chun Do actually have to WC. As is often said of different WC schools and lineage, I would hope that you have researched and experienced these before making claims.

I, like hopefully everyone else, understands that when looking for a WC school or teacher, you should do your research and investigate how things are done and whether or not the sifu is knowledgeable and respected. How do you actually gauge what they know or understand? One person says 'Yes' and another says 'No' on this forum, or in real life. My lineage is the best because of this, etc.. How does an individual KNOW and UNDERSTAND whether or not the school that they attend or are looking into actually KNOW and UNDERSTAND.

I think many on this forum ask questions seeking advice or clarification just to find answers in the form of questions that bring you no further on the search for the original answer. How is an individual supposed to research and find out who actually KNOWS and UNDERSTANDS when people refuse to answer simply and clearly? Instead they come here to read often cryptic posts that read like they are talking down to the original poster. At best they lightly touch on the question originally posed. When trying to understand what someone is conveying, you are basically told that you are wrong or that you misunderstood without explaining why? This of course leaves you just as confused or lost as when you first asked a question.

I think each and every person is entitled to train the way they wish and even share it with everyone else without being told they are doing it for no reason or that it is futile. Life is a long journey - knowledge and understanding a neverending quest. When trying something new, either you will find an invaluable tool or you will learn from your own mistakes. We should never squash the will to innovate at the risk of never moving forward.

Bottom line? If a poster here can help an individual KNOW and UNDERSTAND than they should do all that they can to help the individual. If they cannot assist on the person's quest for knowledge and understanding they can better serve the Wing Chun community and forum by NOT stirring the pot for the sake of trying to look stoic and master-like.

Kevin

[whippinghand]

Originally posted by Spectre
you may be surprised as to how much of a connection Jun Fan and Wing Chun Do actually have to WC.
They both use kicks and punches? What a joke!

How does an individual KNOW and UNDERSTAND whether or not the school that they attend or are looking into actually KNOW and UNDERSTAND.
I guess you can't. But it's interesting, however, to see how people come and watch a class, and then not join because it's not eye candy, like the other schools they visited. I guess in today's world, where there are few legitimate teachers, you can only assume that it is they, who are not legitimate.

How is an individual supposed to research and find out who actually KNOWS and UNDERSTANDS when people refuse to answer simply and clearly? I've put my time in, and I'm still doing it. I'm sure you'd like me to just pour it all on in this forum. But I'd be disrespecting those who have helped me along the way.

There are plenty of other posters, who can satisfy your unwillingness to think.

Instead they come here to read often cryptic posts that read like they are talking down to the original poster.Perhaps it is just your insecurity that you're reflecting? You have a problem with authority, don't you?

At best they lightly touch on the question originally posed. When trying to understand what someone is conveying, you are basically told that you are wrong or that you misunderstood without explaining why? This of course leaves you just as confused or lost as when you first asked a question.
Ask the right question, and you'll get the right answer.


I think each and every person is entitled to train the way they wish and even share it with everyone else without being told they are doing it for no reason or that it is futile. Life is a long journey - knowledge and understanding a neverending quest. When trying something new, either you will find an invaluable tool or you will learn from your own mistakes. That's right. So what are you complaining about?


Bottom line? If a poster here can help an individual KNOW and UNDERSTAND than they should do all that they can to help the individual. I owe you nothing.

[Spectre]

...You solidify and resemble my points.

[yuanfen]

Spectre sez to yuan fen:
you may be surprised as to how much of a connection Jun Fan and Wing Chun Do actually have to WC. As is often said of different WC schools and lineage, I would hope that you have researched and experienced these before making claims
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have "researched" enough to stick with wing chun without the slightest hesitation. The Bruce Lee connection to JF and WCD is insufficient for me for it to be wing chun. I respect what Glover has done in refining what he learned from Lee. Works for him.
There is enough uneven quality in wing chun to make very limited comparisons with many things.

[Spectre]

You can't open a closed mind.

[yuanfen]

Spectre sez:You can't open a closed mind.

Tautologically true, empirically an open question(yuanfen)


__________________
Continued blessings in your life and your training.(Spectre)

Likewise(yuanfen)

[Shadowboxer]

To WH: By providing insight to others, how would you be
disrespecting those that taught you? and what do you gain from this forum?

To others: I went to visit my kwoon and talked with my Sifu off and on for 2 hours while he ran class. I got to see his advanced students in 7*, as well as other less experienced practicioners,
I watched the WC class right after that. It was that night that I Knew I had found what I was looking for. 2 of the advanced WC students were rolling arms/chi saoing/stepping /attacking,etc. amazingly quickly and fluently. I thought my Sifu must have incredible skills if these 2 WC/ 7* students were displaying them before my eyes. Sifu has been training since he was 14 or 15 so I'm sure it's just the tip of the iceberg that I saw, so to speak. In March, I will have been training for 2 years. Now that I am rolling arms, I am beginning to Understand the art and depth of WC.
So, doing research will only take you so far. You have to talk with the Sifu and assess his students' skill level and then get in there and touch hands yourself to truly Know and Understand. I must also add that I was impressed with the combat drills that both classes did.

[yuanfen]

Shadowboxer sez:To WH: By providing insight to others, how would you be
disrespecting those that taught you? and what do you gain from this forum?
---------------------------------------------------------------
Wait a minute. I believe that you are misreading and misrepresenting what WH was saying. WH did not argue against providing insight. He does that with his own style of brevity and expecting some effort on the part of the reader as well. He was
expressinga prefernce for not "pouring out". Re read the posts.

[S.Teebas]

WC is difficult enough with the information right infornt of you. Being good at it can only result from hard work.

I see nothing wrong with sharing information.


S.Teebas

[Spectre]

Let's not confuse the will to not 'pour out' and brevity for the need to feel superior to make up for the lack of self esteem.

[yuanfen]

Let's not confuse the will to not 'pour out' and brevity for the need to feel superior to make up for the lack of self esteem...
sez Spectre
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Shame-
"Need", "lack", "self esteem"...
The above "analysis" is sheer nonsense and quackeroo analysis of character through mysterious "reading" of posts. No wonder lists have trouble generating intelligent postings from knowledgeable folks.:(
Discuss some substance about wing chun Spectre rather than snide comments on character. Why sink low with ad hominem remarks?

[Spectre]

If you are going to preach, spread it evenly or not at all.

My posts were responding to the original question, and I answered them sincerely. Perhaps you need to reread the whole thread to see that it was Whipping Hand and yourself who started poking fun at the question asked.

Oddly enough, when you agree with Whipping Hand it seems ok when he insults and shows a lack of common courtesy towards others.

And for the record, there is no assasination of character unless there are false statements. While a post may not truly reflect the poster, it is still nonetheless a representation of the individual, and as such, the individual should respond in a manner that reflects their character.

Sometimes the truth hurts. Reflect the truth that you want others to know.

Kevin

[vingtsunstudent]

ok whippy,
i tried to appolige to which you were still a little?????? & i know you odviously for some unknown reason dislike me:p but i must say if you met me you would probably enjoy the time we spent training together...but anyway i hate to do this but something you said is a great concern to me.(that is in that i agree- and no i still don't like you that much either)
'There are plenty of other posters, who can satisfy your unwillingness to think.'
it's not the whole thing but the last part "unwillingness to think"
i often worry that these days students are so spoon fed that they have lost the ability to or don't need to think for themself.
it is true that we at first need to be explained how or why something may work but the thing i see all to often is that because students are continuely told that they don't explore a technique for themselves.
please let me know if you all understand what i mean & if not i will try to further explain when i am not as drunk as i am now with no sleep & at 8:15am in the morning my time(the last part has been added as i know what i am trying to say but just don't know if it came out right )
vts

[whippinghand]

Let's not confuse the will to not 'pour out' and brevity for the need to feel superior to make up for the lack of self esteem.

Would you feel more at ease if I used emoticons?

[whippinghand]

Originally posted by vingtsunstudent
these days students are so spoon fed that they have lost the ability to or don't need to think for themself.
it is true that we at first need to be explained how or why something may work but the thing i see all to often is that because students are continuely told that they don't explore a technique for themselves.

I agree vts. Students interpretation of "exploring", as well as some sifus', is to see against how many techniques can a particular motion be used. From there, it is determined that "such and such technique" does not work against "such and such", instead of exploring the nature of the position. The result is a limited technique-based style, that is then passed down through a lineage, as a Wing Chun system.

By the way vts, I do not like you, nor dislike you.

[Spectre]

Originally posted by whippinghand


Would you feel more at ease if I used emoticons?


I do not feel easy nor uneasy. I simply state the obvious.

[whippinghand]

And you do it well.

[Spectre]

As Do You.

[whippinghand]

Not according to what you've been whining about in the previous posts.

[Spectre]

You obviously state your intent and character with each and every post.

You mistake standing up for what is wrong, with whining Whipping Hand. I am not surprised however that anyone who doesn't agree with you can be misconstrued as a whiner. Simple mistake.

Kevin

[yuanfen]

Spectre- I am going to exit this thread and you can have the last word or thereabouts.

Amart from your arm chair psychiatry on character analysis from postings, and wing chun do's version of the one inch punch- I have not seen much wing chun in your postings. Honest.

[whippinghand]

Perhaps, some re-analysis of your own posts is in order... You lack consistency.

[Spectre]

Originally posted by yuanfen
... I have not seen much wing chun in your postings. Honest.

Re-reading this thread I can honestly say the same for you - which is truly a shame given the fact that you usually have the tendency to post respectful, well thought responses. I still look forward to your future posts. I have no problem with agreeing to disagree on this thread.


Originally posted by whippinghand
Spectre - Perhaps, some re-analysis of your own posts is in order... You lack consistency.

Thank you for pointing out my faults Whipping Hand. Hopefully some day you can grow enough to recognize your own. Until then I will continue to exchange words with you everytime you post senseless responses or belittle those asking for help (Not to be confused with them asking you to think for them).

Kevin

[whippinghand]

As for recognizing my own "faults", I KNOW them too well.

That's my secret.

[Shadowboxer]

I'm not sure anybody has ever asked WH to "pour it all on" this forum-just enough to be clear and helpful. I don't have a problem with thinking about things. More often than not, others ask WH to be more clear(less cryptic),and more often than not he refuses. Although, lately I've been very surprised at the length of some of his recent posts(quotes don't count). So I wonder again, what do you gain from this forum WH? If, indeed, WC is in such a state of decline why do you not tailor your answers to be more beneficial for those not as far along the path as you. And, I still don't see how that is disrespectful to his sihing.

[yuanfen]

Shadowboxer: Your response seems to be to WH's "pour it on " post. Why do you address it to yuanfen and WH?
Who knows? the Shadow knows!

[whippinghand]

Originally posted by Shadowboxer
why do you not tailor your answers to be more beneficial for those not as far along the path as you.
Because we're not on the same path.

[Shadowboxer]

Hmm...what path am I on then? Are we not both learning WC?
Or, what path are you on?

Yuanfen, I addressed it to the both of you because you posted that I didn't get what WH meant in a previous reply.

[whippinghand]

Not every student in an Economics class will have the same profession. Some will become economists, presidents of a bank, bank managers, entrepreneurs, actors, waiters, vagrants. They are not necessarily following the same path.

[Shadowboxer]

WH, your analogy does not apply. I think when I looked at your profile before it said you have trained in WC for 10 years. I have only trained for almost 2. Academic class and martial arts training are not the same. People who would devote 10 years to the study of Economics are on the same path, although not walking in each other's footsteps. We are both learning WC, therefore we are on the same path. We might have different goals. Are you going to answer the other questions I have asked, Truthfinder?

[whippinghand]

WH, your analogy does not apply.
I'm sure you conveniently believe that.

Are you going to answer the other questions I have asked, Truthfinder?
If you feel that a question has gone unanswered, it could be 1 of 4 things:
1) I did not read the question
2) I answered the question indirectly, and you did not understand
3) I answered the question, and you did not like the answer
4) The question did not merit an answer

If you think it's 1, what is the question again?

[Shadowboxer]

I believe it is #1-perhaps you would like to explain your analogy further? They are there in the thread for you to answer. I'm sure you like to conveniently believe in #2 and #3 and #4. My questions are simple.

[whippinghand]

Perhaps, you'd like to explain what you don't understand.

[yuanfen]

Shadowboxer sez:People who would devote 10 years to the study of Economics are on the same path, although not walking in each other's footsteps. We are both learning WC, therefore ...
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Learning wing chun or economics is not like learning how to operate the cash register at a gas pumping outlet.
Who is teaching, which curriculum they are following, the nature of the student and other things can make a big difference.
No cookie cutter in either subject. No one shoe fits all.

[whippinghand]

Nobody seems to care, yuenfan. Few seem interested in attempting to figure out if who they are learning from is any good (by good I don't mean "kicking ass", I mean actually understanding what he does), or figuring out what the curriculum is and the purpose of it. People are just happy learning Wing Chun regardless of who it's from, then convince themselves that "this guy is really good" or that he's good enough. I'd rather learn no Wing Chun at all than to learn crap.

[old jong]

The problem is: How someone can tell if a instructor is really understanding what he's talking about? Beginners can't tell about these things so sometimes they learn "crap".
The lineage is not so reliable also. What if Moy Yat (Used as an example) had been reluctant to teach to a "disciple" He could have very well (again example) taken the money and let the guy think he was learning something! The best way to do this is to tell the poor guy that he's the recipient of "secret and close doors techniques"!

[old jong]

I look at this and I realise I should not have used a real name to illustrate my thoughts in my last post. Even if I mention that it is an example,it could offend some people and it was not my goal at all. I hope some who may feel concerned by this will not take it the bad way.

[S.Teebas]

Old Jong... i am offended!:mad: :mad: :



You better watch you back mate!:mad:


S.Teebas

[S.Teebas]

...just kidding :D


S.Teebas

[old jong]

Good!...:) Our little Wing Chun world is so full of paranoïds!;) We have to be carefull! ;)

[yuanfen]

But- Old Jong- they say even paranoids have real enemies<g>
Sooo- still- watch out!!!

[old jong]

:eek: ...I know!....:eek:


:D