Striking with the lower knuckles...not just a Wing Chun thing

[straight blast]

I guess this question applies to a lot of styles, not just Wing Chun.
I've just learned that the Wing Chun punches strike with the lower knuckles, as opposed to the more familiar boxing or Karate punches which hit with the first and second knuckles as they are bigger and harder. But the alignment of the bones in the wrist is stronger for the lower knuckles, minimizing impact damage (to you) and lessening the chance of the punch being turned at the wrist on impact.
But the little knuckles, man??? Ouch! I've only ever hit bags (or people ) with my big knuckles, and admittedly my wrists are a little bit damaged but I've never broken a bone doing it. But smacking someone in the point of thejaw (accidentally) with the little knuckles has got to run the risk of breaking the small bones in the hand. Question time:
What do you think? Do the little knuckles get stronger (I assume so) the more you practise or do you get hurt no matter how long you go? Has this happened to anyone?
And which do you prefer?

"Forfeit the game
Before somebody else takes you out of the frame
And puts your name to shame
Cover up your face
You can't run the race
The pace is too fast,
You just won't last!"

[scotty1]

The thought of striking with the lower knuckles just meakes me think "crack". I didn't realise they did that. Spose it makes sense withthe wrist thing, but ouch.

[Kristoffer]

In Hsing-I they punch with the middle two knuckles.

~K~
"maybe not in combat.. but think of the chicks man, the chicks!" -- someone on the subject of back-flips in combat --

[Fish of Fury]

yeah, you get used to it.
when i did karate many moons ago we used to punch using the "big 2", but now i've used the lower 3 for so long hitting with the others would feel weird

__________________________________________________ _________________________ "I'm just trying to lull you into a genuine sense of security!"

[JWTAYLOR]

The way I look at a skeletal hand the first two knuckles line up much better with the major bones in the arm than the last two. There are more big supportive bones in the first two.

JWT

If you pr!ck us, do we not bleed? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that the villany you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction. MOV

[Stacey]

Its hard enough to hit a moving target as it is, best to make the fist solid and condition it, whatever hits, hits. The second joint knuckles are often used in a raking motion accross the face or a closed fist palm to the ear.

HO HO HO
http://thumb-2.image.altavista.com/image/100933751

[PaleDragon]

just use your palms and your wang

[rogue]

I'd think structurally(sp?) the lower three are weaker. When putting a wrist lock on someone who's hand is in a fist, we always try to push against the lower three knuckles.

In a real fight I use open hand anyway. ;)

Signed,
Rogue, Soke and Senior Grandmaster of Southeast American Brazillian Bagua Combat Chi jitsu Kempo Karate Do and Choral Society.

The only tactical principle which is not subject to change; it is, “To use the means at hand to inflict the maximum amount of wounds, death, and destruction on the enemy in the minimum amount of time."

[fa_jing]

I think in wing chun, the punch is meant to hit with all four knuckles, but with an emphasis on the bottom three. This is actually is a very natural position for the wrist, I find it more natural for a punch shoulder-level or above, then bending the wrist to hit with the first two knuckles. That being said, my Sifu teaches us to hit with the first two knuckles, the big ones. I always assumed you needed to strengthen the bones with iron fist training first, in order to use the small knuckles safely. -FJ

[Cyborg]

I find that locking the fist so that you hit with the bottom 3 is safer for the wrist. You can toughen them by LIGHTLY punching steel, not hard enough to bring blood, or even signifigant pain, just repeatedly. Occasionally focus on just the smallest one. Think of it as mobile makiwara training. :)

"Box a fighter and fight a boxer". Bruce Lee

[Starchaser107]

Santa Claus is correct!!!. Just condition your whole hand man. Striking with two knucles of your fist alone is like sabotage, c'mon nobody here practice phoenix punch , or what about two finger strikes, or even a mantis claw ...spear hand... leapord fist...if you can condition your hands to do a finger strike you can condition your lower three knuckles to punch

"everything is everything"_W.Rodney

[Arod1972]

You should only use this with a straight punch and not a round house or other.

One who has two roots becomes a stronger tree.

[joedoe]

I have never had a problem with using the lower knuckles. As long as you condition properly there is plenty of support.

cxxx[]:::::::::::>
You're fu(king up my chi

[Kevin73]

I can't remember where I read it, but they did a medical study on the anatomy of a punch and the typical vertical punch hitting with the large two knuckles was the strongest anatomically by lining up all the bones and reducing the stress.

"God gave you a brain, and it annoys Him greatly when you choose not to use it."

[vingtsunstudent]

rich mooney you are so far wrong it is laughable.
i use the bottom three knuckles & have hit many things, including people & have never had a problem.
test- walk up to a solid(flat) concrete wall, now with your typical karate/kung fu type 2 knuckle strike hit it hard.
now with your fist vertical punch straight into it with the bottom 3.
if you are fair dinkum about it you won't use your top 2 knuckles again.
also i would like to here from anyone as to how the top 2 knuckles when in a horizontal fist structurally line up better with the bones in your forearm than the bottom 3 do when your fist is vertical, just have a look.
vts

[Castlevania]

I used to have all my knuckles covered with blood when I started heavy bag training,now I punch trees with ease,and also with the fourth and some with the fifth knuckle.

[anerlich]

Jack Dempsey, per "Championship Fighting", advocated punching with the bottom three. Read the book, his arguments are pretty good.

[Crimson Phoenix]

Just looking at my own hand, I can see that indeed the two lower knuckles are better aligned with my cubitus and radius...and iff as someone said you can condition your hands for spear hands or phoenix eyes, why not these knuckles then?
I personaly do not have any problems punching with these, and I might add that this hitting surface feels much more natural for some strikes used in white crane, mainly what we call the pao quan (cannon fists), that follow a circular (vertical circle) trajectory to hit the plexus or under the chin...works well foorr the ribs too...in these strikes, the fist is slightly jerked up at the impact to add momentum and penetration to the knuckles, and it feels just right...
I do not know much about how Xingyi uses it, but I know it does use it.

[Ky-Fi]

I went to a William CC Chen Taiji workshop, and he stressed that in Taiji you had to strike with the top two knuckles, because to strike with the lower knuckles and not break your hand would require too much tensing of the muscles of the wrist and forearm---contrary to the principles of Taiji. I think any Taiji people can experiment for themselves: stand 3 feet from a wall, relax your upper body in line with Taiji principles (sunken shoulders, elbows dropped,bare minimum of muscular tension in arms, wrist and whole upper body). Now let yourself fall against the wall, and hold out your right fist to support the weight of your body. When I do that, and maintain as little muscular tension as possible, it's my top two knuckles that support the weight---I believe that CC Chen is exactly right in that to make use of my lower knuckles in this situation would require much more use of the muscles in the wrist and forearm. One point though--I'm not saying that using the lower knuckles is an inferior or ineffective technique----just that it's not in line with Taiji principles, at least as I understand them.

[Richie]

Yeah Jack Dempsey was a legendary fighter. However, there is a term in boxing "the boxer break" That is when you break you pinky and or ring knuckle.

All I see is a bunch of low foreheads talking about punching tree (dumb) and about theories on punch mechanics, when most of yall never really hit anything hard in your lives. I bet you if most of you guys get into a real fight and get a punch in, you would probably break your wrists. Hitting someone in real life and heavy hit sparring are two different things.

Most of you clowns needs to put down your keyboards, pick up you balls and practice juggling.

gee wiz!!! :mad:

For traditional kung fu go to www.taishingpekkwar.com (http://www.taishingpekkwar.com)

[Fish of Fury]

interesting Ky Fi, cos when i do that (i just did!) i find using bottom 3 allows me to relax, but big 2 i feel the strain within the hand (don't worry though...i'm OK :D )

maybe again it's what you're used to?

i think fist horizontal or vertical also makes a difference (and vertical, bottom 3 knuckles really suits IMO)

__________________________________________________ _________________________ "I'm just trying to lull you into a genuine sense of security!"

[Ky-Fi]

Fish of F,
I’ve pretty much been training only Taiji for the last few years, so I’ll get more specific in regards to the Taiji fist I’m talking about when I’m doing that. The fist isn’t clenched at all—in Taiji we wouldn’t any tension more than necessary in the hand or fingers. The fingers are just kind of lightly, naturally turned inwards (and I’m referring to a vertical fist). My teacher has said that you should feel like you’re lightly holding a ping-pong ball in your fist. William CC Chen said he often demonstrated this by holding a raw egg in his fist, and punching through a board without breaking the egg. Maybe we’ll just have to agree to disagree, but IMO you can’t do this if you’re striking with the lower knuckles. Again though, that’s just Taiji---I’m not saying it isn’t effective in other styles.

[Richie]

Thanks for all the details. I really couldn't remember the complete facts about that break. I had a friend (am. boxer) who got that break. Also, my brother got that break in a street fight. You should have seen the x-ray.

For traditional kung fu go to www.taishingpekkwar.com (http://www.taishingpekkwar.com)

[rogue]

The the wrist is unstable when pushing against the lower three.

Signed,
Rogue, Soke and Senior Grandmaster of Southeast American Brazillian Bagua Combat Chi jitsu Kempo Karate Do and Choral Society.

The only tactical principle which is not subject to change; it is, “To use the means at hand to inflict the maximum amount of wounds, death, and destruction on the enemy in the minimum amount of time."

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

my first two knuckels are so big from hitting walls and doors that i don't think i could ever start hitting with the others. the pinky knuckle on my right hand is also enlarged from hitting (what i would call) wrong, so when i make a fist my ring finger knuckle looks like a missing tooth.

where's my beer?

[popsider]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rogue:
The the wrist is unstable when pushing against the lower three.

[/quote]

No it isn't.

[Sharky]

no, it isn't. i find it much more stable.

=================================
What we really need is chicks with a whole new kinda orifice - Fish

Sharky, I should expect this level of immaturity from you after seeing your post titled "Hm." regarding the woman that lives next door to you. I think everyone who unfortuneatly read that post is a bit more ignorant now for doing so. - Spectre

All i wanted was some RICE CAKES! Now? WE MUST BATTLE.

[vingtsunstudent]

well mr mooney if writing 50000000 words means your right then so be it.
do you mind me asking what style you do?
you see the thing is that i want to put on it without even trying it.
do you get my piont.
if i was the only one who thought this type of punching was the way to go then maybe you'd have a good case but seeing as though wing chun is the second most practiced chinese style(the first being tai chi) i'd say that there could be more to punching this way than you ay think.
i have never damaged my knuckles nor have any of my wing chun brothers & we use a wall bag filled with stones.
vts

[dzu]

Modern boxers use their own specific mechanics when delivering punches. The majority of their punches are not delivered with the elbow down and a vertical fist (although bare knuckle boxers use to fight like this...hmmmmm). Even with the vertical fist, the emphasis should be on the middle knuckle (and to a lesser extent, the ring knuckle). The pinky is the ****hest removed from the forearm and has the least direct bone support for force coming or going to the ground.

Boxer's fractures are common, but that is because most people don't have training or understanding of proper punching mechanics using a vertical fist as opposed to a horizontal one.

Dzu

[azwingchun]

I have to agree with you, I have been using this punch for 12 years or more and never had an injury. And yes, I have used it in the street. Though I do agree there is some conditioning done, as I feel should be done with any style of punch. I will add that this kind of punch shouldn't be used in a hooking style punch and is only used by most people I know, as a straight line punch.

I told a story once on a post, where a boxing coach (who trained in the same gym as I did) asked me how I could strike the dummy with force and only using mostly the lower 3 knuckles without breaking them. Since just throwing a regular punch would be punish enough on the hands. He was actually kinda amazed and wanted me to teach his boxers this method. ;)

[MIKSANSOO]

are you guys talking about the knuckles you use to knock on a door with?

"you can take my life, but not my confidence"
Jimmy H. Woo

[rogue]

The reason that the bottom of the hand is less stable is that's where it flexes from. Note the palmaris longus, the flexor carpi ulnaris and the flexor carpi radialis.

Flex your wrist in and watch how the hand turns. This also why when doing a wrist lock you push in on the bottom three knuckles.

Muscles of the hand and wrist. (http://www.fitnessdirectory.net/directory/subcategories/wrist.html)

http://www.fitnessdirectory.net/directory/f/forearm.gif

You can hit with the bottom three but they will not have the stability of hitting with the top two.

Signed,
Rogue, Soke and Senior Grandmaster of Southeast American Brazillian Bagua Combat Chi jitsu Kempo Karate Do and Choral Society.

The only tactical principle which is not subject to change; it is, “To use the means at hand to inflict the maximum amount of wounds, death, and destruction on the enemy in the minimum amount of time."

[Fish of Fury]

well, there's entire styles that hit with the bottom 3, i've done it for many years and had no problem.
my sifu lived his entire life and never had a problem with it...
...so,
whatever.

__________________________________________________ _________________________ "I'm just trying to lull you into a genuine sense of security!"

[azwingchun]

Exactly my point. ;)

[KC Elbows]

Although I don't punch with the bottom three, I've seen an awful lot of people who do, and, boxers aside, I haven't met any who had received serious damage from doing so.

Perhaps there is something in the mechanics of their punch that negates the chance of injury?

[rogue]

Glad no ones been hurt, but can you give me any biomechanical evidence that it's better to hit with the lower three than the top two?

Signed,
Rogue, Soke and Senior Grandmaster of Southeast American Brazillian Bagua Combat Chi jitsu Kempo Karate Do and Choral Society.

The only tactical principle which is not subject to change; it is, “To use the means at hand to inflict the maximum amount of wounds, death, and destruction on the enemy in the minimum amount of time."

[omegapoint]

As an intern waiting to begin my first year of Orthopedic residency, I'd have to say that Rich and Rogue are more correct in their assessments of this age old question. You can punch with a hammer fist, with the middle-index knuckle, the middle knuckle of the middle finger or the last 2 knucles of the hand. These strikes along with most open-hand strikes are usually target specific though, regardless of style. Contacting softer areas of the body often doesn't entail using great force, just accurate and proper tecnique.

If you want to punch with maximum strength and efficacy on harder surfaces of the body such as the face, mastoid process, occiput or what have you, the best fist to use is the closed fist. The strongest bone in your forearm is the radius. This bone not only supports the middle and index knuckles, but anatomically is on more of a direct or linear plane to these knuckles. This allows for maximum tranference of kinetic energy down the shaft of the radius and into the mid and index knucles. Thus, less force is dissipated along this straighter plane, and the result is a stronger punch. It also gives much better protection against direct force applied to these knuckles.

The ulna which is the smaller and weaker of the 2 forearm bones has less surface area to transfer the energy, and in the case of the pinky which is at an oblique angle to its support bone (the ulna) the bone is "free-floating" (for lack of a better term). Structurally, this makes them much less stable than your 2nd and 3rd digit knuckles. Additionally, when the fist is "turned-over" or cork-screwed, the last 2 bones of the finger fail to articulate, or connect, and this provides for even less stability.

In Chin Na, Aikido or Okinawan Tuite (Ti) many "Dividing/Spreading the Bone" hand controls and techs are done by separating the weaker bones of the hand with your 2 hands (the thumb and and last 2 digits), often in conjunction with twisting the wrist. In GJJ many defenses against a frontal choke or lapel grab involve trapping the hand with one of your hands against the chest at the wrist,and using the other to "find" the least stable finger bone to bend back. 9 times out of 10 this is the ring finger, which is similar to the pinky in that it is almost "free-floating". The reason the even weaker pinky is not used is because it is often harder to gain maximum grip on the smaller finger. All of these traditional techs make perfect anatomical sense and are based upon empirical evidence and not assumption or personal opinion/experience. Yes, you can harden the last 2 fingers through years of striking and "iron body" techs, but at the risk of crippling yourself or causing arthritis.

If you train in a style like Wing Tsun that emphasizes striking with these last 2 knuckles and have found it to be an effective way to strike with full-speed and power, then more power to you. I think Taiji, the epitome of martial science, has it right. It just seems to make more sense to support a structure with steel girders rather than toothpicks. Plus, non-boxers are not immune to a "Boxer's Fracture".

Happy, safe and smart training...

[Crimson Phoenix]

OK, I'm going to state something so obvious it is stupid: HUMAN BODIES ARE NOT WALLS...if you fight walls often, then definitely you qhould avoid using your knuckles...any of them...there are different types of targets in the human body, each more suitable for the use of certain weapons against them...you won't use a lower-knuckle punch on ANY target, but on selected ones and in a selected manner (I think about the sternum cannon fits in white crane, also called "heart-stopping punch").
So for those who claim that people saying the lower knuckles can be used are clowns that should train more (they'll recognize themselves), I say this: if you can't aquire the right way to hit the right target with a lower-knuckle punch, YOU are the one that should go training instead of acting all smart.

[rogue]

So far I have not seen a WC, WT, or VT person repsond that way Crimson. I hear about bone alignment and feeling natural and upsetting the root(?) but never see any physical proof offered of the lower three being mechanically better or even safer. Let's face facts, we do many things in the Martial Arts because some sifu or sensei tell us to, and some (many?) of them are clueless to how the body works.


Signed,
Rogue, Soke and Senior Grandmaster of Southeast American Brazillian Bagua Combat Chi jitsu Kempo Karate Do and Choral Society.

The only tactical principle which is not subject to change; it is, “To use the means at hand to inflict the maximum amount of wounds, death, and destruction on the enemy in the minimum amount of time."

[Crimson Phoenix]

Rogue, I don't know much about WC regarding the use of this technique...I just know that in White Crane we use it (as I said, to hit certain targets in a certain way), and that friends of mine practicing Xingyi are fond of using them...Maybe it's me, but when I slightly flex my wrist, my lower knuckles align much better with my arm's bones and I can do pushups on them feeling no loss of balance or incomfort at all...and this is the way the wrist is flexed when you jerk it to do that cannon fist thingie. For a lot of other punches, I'll just use the two big knuckles, admitedly.
To me this "these knuckles are better than those" concept os pointless...what is the best weapon? What hand form has better "orthopedic" factors? A ridge hand (internal or external?)? spear hand? phoenix eye? vertical fist? horizontal fist?
To me, there is no better weapon than another per se, these weapons are just suited for different targets and ways of striking them...you don't use a fist to hit something that deserves a spear hand, you don't do a ridge hand to a spot you need a phoenix eye on...for me, this knuckle argument is just about that: you just use these knuckles on selected targets in selected ways.
It just ****es me off to read absolute judgements that imply that these hand forms are definite no-no's all the time. I'm sorry, but for me it is not true: they can't be used all the time alright, but they have their usefulness too, and it shoudln't be discarded.
You can't obviously take a tank out with a sniper riffle, but you can't take a group of men out with an anti-tank bullet...each weapon will need to be aimed at a certain target if you want it to work, and unfortunately (or maybe fortunately), we haven't found the gong fu equivalent of the nuke yet...

[popsider]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rogue:
Glad no ones been hurt, but can you give me any biomechanical evidence that it's _better_ to hit with the lower three than the top two?
" _[/quote]

Rogue, your diagram, talking about where the wrist flexes etc is a red herring - what is important is alignment - i.e. not punching with a bent wrist. A vertical punch with the top two knuckles impacting usually means the wrist is bent - that's bad.

[rogue]

With all due respect guys, present your proof and arguments. So far saying "it aligns better" and that you can do pushups that way(a static situation) is not proof that in a fight the wrist will remain stable hitting a moving target of varying density.

So far OmegaPoint, Rich Mooney and myself have presented arguments against, backed up with why we believe this (even with diagrams :) ), so far you folks have made statements that you don't backup. Present your proof as I'd love to have another weapon to use if you're right.

Signed,
Rogue, Soke and Senior Grandmaster of Southeast American Brazillian Bagua Combat Chi jitsu Kempo Karate Do and Choral Society.

The only tactical principle which is not subject to change; it is, “To use the means at hand to inflict the maximum amount of wounds, death, and destruction on the enemy in the minimum amount of time."

[Mutant]

We don't just strike with the 2 bottom knuckles, we drive the entire fist thru. People who focus on which knuckle(s) have to hit first are missing the point, its about proper alignment of the enire body, which is really what we're striking with, certain strikes transfer this energy and power thru different parts of the hand, foot, body, etc. In a verticle fist, depending on angle, target, etc, the lower 3 knuckles are aligned and the entire fist penetrates/transmits force. If the strike is mostly hitting with the pinky knuckle then its probably just a superficial grazing strike anyway. If you slam that knuckle against a hard object you very well may damage it. If youre just thinking about it static with your fist all tighened up and knocking on a solid surface, then yes you i guess that could hurt your self...but thats not the kind of energy or strike we're using. With proper conditioning you can transfer lots of power thru that part of your hand without damage. And we strike from many different angles with many different parts of the fingers, wrist, joints, knuckles, hand, elbow, shoulder, knees, shins, feet, etc, etc. Its all the same principle, not being all tight and 'knocking' on a person, jong, door, whatever, its relaxed, dynamic, explosive, and penetrating, using proper form, energy, physiology and alignment. More like a hollow point bullet blasting energy through. Its hard to explain these concepts quickly in person let alone in a short paragraph...thats why it takes years to develop this stuff, right?
When you use different strikes such as a horizontal fist (I'm not nessesarily just talking about Wing Chun now) then the physiology and alignment is diffent, youre not going to be aligning your fist the same way and the first part to make contact might be the index-finger-knuckle and middle knuckle, and you can transfer lots of power thru these too, its just a different strike with differnt alignment but the principle is the same.
With boxing gloves on its hard to not get tangled up if you try to stick to just verticle punches (which could be a bad idea anyway), to much big pad on the centerline and youre hands can get trapped easy and trip over eachother and i find it more effective to allow yourself the option to 'float' the elbows a bit and use vertical punches, or an angle somewhere in between, to get over the opponents defense, gloves, etc, especially when stiking to the higher targets, head, etc. You can still use vertical fist strikes effectively, especially to the body, but its more difficult to use some of the traditional WC basics that we would use barehanded or on the street. I believe thats at least part of the answer to why boxers started using more horizontal punches when gloves were applied, it evolved more into a sport as the equiptment altered the dynamics and possiblies and there became a more limited spectrum of what can shoot thru effectively.
A verticle fist IS inherently more solid a 'platform' in a static situation, just root in a stance, have someone in front of you push youre fist back towards you in the vertical and horizontal positions, and see how its easier to use more of your body and stronger muscle groups with your elbows down. So i think this is a good fundamental punch. Its a very important basic concept and tool for your arsenal. But I wouldnt say to only punch like that or that theres only 1 best way to strike, fighting is dynamic and when you develop youre fa jing and body dynamics, you can transfer good power from vertical fist, horizontal, etc.
****, now i've typed way more than i intended to starting off, but its a good question and a complex answer, that has more to do with transfering power effectively with your body, then worrying about lining up a certain knuckle, unless of course youre striking pressure point or small target, but then you wouldnt be using a basic straight vertical fist. Hope I put a dent in explaining this rather than just made the issue more confusing. I wish i could better explain this or demonstrate what exactly I mean.
:p
-MutantWarrior

"Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checked by failures...than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."
-Theodore Roosevelt

[Fish of Fury]

well, for a start you could post a diagram that was relevant :D
ie one of the skeletal system would be more appropriate to your argument than a muscle chart.

the radius does indeed line up best with the index and middle knuckles, but is this a good thing? if your bones are locked in a straight line transfer of force means your more likely to fracture something.
the wrist bone most often broken is the scaphoid bone (Torotra and Grabowski, Principles of Anatomy and Physiology, 8th ed.) this bone lies directly between the radius and index finger.

still, i'm sure if someone trains appropriately they can still condition themselves well using "top 2" knuckles.

WRIST) i speculate that the "bottom 3" fist helps diffuse the forces coming back into the wrist when punching, making it less jarring to the wrist.
KNUCKLES) as for the knuckles themselves, force is distributed over 3 not just 2, so if you punch properly there should be if anything less chance of damaging the knuckles.
in fact, in one of Mas Oyamas books he says karate strikes with 2 knuckles to get more penetration NOT to make it safer on the knuckles, but our senior disciple told me that when he met Mas Oyama a few years back, Oyama had to soak his hands every morning just to get them to move, and told him given his time over he wouldn't train the way he had (of course i can't PROVE that any more than i can PROVE i had sandwiches for lunch...but i did. tasty they where too, but i digress)

ultimately though, the proof is in the pudding, and the fact that my Sifu still had supple hands in his eighties tells me all i need to know.
if that isn't proof enough for you, well....sorry.i really don't care. scientific proof is not as important as my own experience, and the knowledge of those more experienced in these situations.

i wish you all the best though.
use whatever fist form works for you.

__________________________________________________ _________________________ "I'm just trying to lull you into a genuine sense of security!"

[Mutant]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Fish of Fury:
"Oyama had to soak his hands every morning just to get them to move"
"ultimately though, the proof is in the pudding, and the fact that my Sifu still had supple hands in his eighties"

Good example of external -vs- internal methods of striking FishofFury, thats what I am trying to explain too! NOT just striking with a knuckle or two or three, but transfering your entire bodies energy through your point of contact, which CAN remain supple and be even more devestating. When we talk about 'conditioning the hands' we're NOT saying to go beat them into horned deformities like some external 'arts'. And then your hands are in better condition to grapple/apply chin na, feel your women up, all the other important things.

-MutantWarrior

"Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checked by failures...than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."
-Theodore Roosevelt

[Fish of Fury]

i agree MutantWarrior
in fact i think what you said is probably more important than what i posted IMO

i know when i first started learning finger strikes against solid objects(now THERE'S something to worry about anatomically ! :D ) the emphasis was not on precise alignment as much as on the feel/energy/expression of the move (and gradual conditioning of course)

"Its all the same principle, not being all tight and 'knocking' on a person, jong, door, whatever, its relaxed, dynamic, explosive, and penetrating, using proper form, energy, physiology and alignment."

that sums it up quite well

in fact i'm inspired...gonna go attack my box of stones!

__________________________________________________ _________________________ "I'm just trying to lull you into a genuine sense of security!"

[joedoe]

I was going to write something like "Do whatever works for you" but I figured someone would have a problem with that. :D

cxxx[]:::::::::::>
You're fu(king up my chi

[Fish of Fury]

shut up ABandit.
i just have Verbal Diarrhoea of the Fish, and write page after page of crap...and you want to just say "do what works"
what's wrong with you man!?!

__________________________________________________ _________________________ "I'm just trying to lull you into a genuine sense of security!"

[joedoe]

Screw you man. What are you going to do? Slap me with a fin? **** fish always swimming around opening and closing your mouth but you haven't really got anything to say have you?

Fish, you stink! :D

cxxx[]:::::::::::>
You're fu(king up my chi

[rogue]

"...the wrist bone most often broken is the scaphoid bone (Torotra and Grabowski, Principles of Anatomy and Physiology, 8th ed.) this bone lies directly between the radius and index finger."

Fish, were T & G referring to punching or just making a general statement?

Also here you go, hope this helps you see the error of your ways! :D

Anterior view
http://www.science.ubc.ca/~biomania/tutorial/bonesk/rdsk36.gif

Posterior view
http://www.science.ubc.ca/~biomania/tutorial/bonesk/rdsk37.gif

This whole argument shows why I prefer to use open hand techniques. ;)

Signed,
Rogue, Soke and Senior Grandmaster of Southeast American Brazillian Bagua Combat Chi jitsu Kempo Karate Do and Choral Society.

The only tactical principle which is not subject to change; it is, “To use the means at hand to inflict the maximum amount of wounds, death, and destruction on the enemy in the minimum amount of time."

[Fish of Fury]

much better rogue :D
T&G was general statement (statistics rock don't they?)
:)
scaphoid is the bone directly "beneath" radius on the left (in the anterior diagram)

all of which proves nothing which is kinda my point.(although i think my speculation about lining up the bones dead straight = lack of diffusion is worth considering)

proof is in the pudding (as you can tell i'm quite a pudding fan) :)

__________________________________________________ _________________________ "I'm just trying to lull you into a genuine sense of security!"

[rogue]

"T&G was general statement"
See how I caught that? I'm not an overpaid Systems Analyst/Consultant for nothing my Fishy Little Buckeroo! :D

"(statistics rock don't they?)"
You know I've heard that 90% of all fights go to the ground.


Rogue strides off into the sunset triumphant once again!!!
Fade to black... ;)

Signed,
Rogue, Soke and Senior Grandmaster of Southeast American Brazillian Bagua Combat Chi jitsu Kempo Karate Do and Choral Society.

The only tactical principle which is not subject to change; it is, “To use the means at hand to inflict the maximum amount of wounds, death, and destruction on the enemy in the minimum amount of time."

[Fish of Fury]

"You know I've heard that 90% of all fights go to the ground."

of course! 83% of all MA's know all fights go to the ground (but there's only a 40% chance of that)

__________________________________________________ _________________________ "I'm just trying to lull you into a genuine sense of security!"

[matt]

i have used both fist the one with the firsrt two knuckles and the fist with the last three knuckels i find that both works reasonably well and both have equaly bad reasoning i have broke my middle knuckle punching with the first two knuckels and have had a boxer break with the last three i retrained my hands since then and use both fists and call the first two knuckles the yang fist and the lower three the yin fist making use of yin yang principals toward the fist :rolleyes:

matt bugg

[joedoe]

43% of statistics are just pulled out of the air.

cxxx[]:::::::::::>
You're fu(king up my chi

[Fish of Fury]

"43% of statistics are just pulled out of the air"

yeah, but only 92% of the time

__________________________________________________ _________________________ "I'm just trying to lull you into a genuine sense of security!"

[Fish of Fury]

anyway, thanks guys i had a good spontaneous afternoon of training inspired by this conversation (for some reason :confused: )

who said KFO was useless, and full of half arsed losers who do nothing but talk cr@p and never train!?

__________________________________________________ _________________________ "I'm just trying to lull you into a genuine sense of security!"

[tnwingtsun]

>You can't obviously take a tank out with a sniper riffle<

Yes you can(with proper training).
Thats the key here,the ppl that don't like the
lower knuckle punch don't train it and I'm not going to get into the biomechanical evidence right now because I just buried a friend and I'm
fuggen tired!!

rogue-you are on the right path when you talk about the palm strike.

I've punched people in fights(not sparring) using the lower bone as support for the driving bullet(fist) per sae,it frigging works,full stop,end of story,
but not the end of my arsenel,its not the only pebble on the beach just as nothing is........

Crimson made some good points.


VingStudent made some good points

All of you did,but before you whip out your grays book on bones learn how to do the punch the way it was met to be delivered.

If you're going to use a UZI sub gun and thats all you use to clear rooms,don't knock a HK MP-5
if you don't use it(all purpose,I like the HK).

Same thing with strikes,punch,palm whatever,I know what works because I've tried them all(except my nuke punch and I'm saving that one)
on ****ed off moving trained and untrained targets that wanted my arse in a room temp sling.

They all work!!

IF YOU WORK THEM!!

END OF SERMON.


GOOD NIGHT LADIES.


PS>>>>>>>>I WILL BRING MY BONE BOOK TO CLASS THIS

WEEK FOR A POP QUIZ.