Question for the pa kua guys(and anyone else who really wants to answer)

[KC Elbows]

The style I practice has certain elements of pa kua in it, and it occured to me that one technique I've been working on might be an example of twisting energy, but I'm not certain. I'll definitely ask my teacher, but I thought I'd put the question here, too.

Bear with me, because this might be difficult to explain.

Lets say the technique begins in a left foot forward bow stance. The left foot pivots on the heel, so that the toes move to the left, and the toes are placed back on the ground at about 45 degrees to the left. This causes the hips to follow, and so the right foot swings around to the front, hooking an opponent's foot. Now, your right foot is in the lead, your body should be chest to chest to your opponent, and your body now twists to the right, using your right elbow to push your opponent's body to the right, causing them to trip over your right hooking foot. Hope this makes sense.

The question is, are any of these examples of twisting power:

1) The initial pivot of the left foot that causes the hips to twist and bring the right foot around to hook the opponent's leg?

2)The twist of the body that brings the opponent's upper body to the right while the right foot prevents the opponent's legs from moving from my left to my right?

I hope some of you can make sense of this.

[This message was edited by KC Elbows on 11-29-01 at 09:47 AM.]

[NafAnal]

erm.... sounds like a bagua palm change.

The initial pivot sounds to me like closing the body. then the push opens it up again, it's more a case of closing and opening joints, wrapping and coiling the body. Not sure if it's twisting power, although you are twisting your body in a way... Maybe braden or some of the bagua guys could help....

i talk sh1t, so don't listen to me

[Chris McKinley]

The technical answer is going to be "no" to both questions, since proper chan siu jing, the coiling energy, includes some nuances not found outside the internal arts. However, that doesn't mean there might not be similarities or reflections of it in the movements of other styles. For instance, the initial pivot of the left foot will give you a certain amount of twisting tension to load the right leg for the hook.

The twist of the body in your second example would really be closer to an expression of splitting jing or uprooting jing than coiling jing, perhaps also of Taiji energy in that it's kind of a push/pull thing going on there.

Please keep in mind that, while these techniques may be completely effective (and therefore fulfill there purpose perfectly well), they are NOT expressions of real coiling jing, splitting jing or uprooting jing. Some of the differences are overt and some are subtle. However, those arts which include even a hybridized attempt at these concepts usually do quite well.

[KC Elbows]

Chris,
It is an internal style, though I undoubtedly have not yet fully "internalized" the step I'm talking about. To clarify, the power is generated in almost exactly the same way as hsing yi on strikes, and the footwork has very close correlations to pa kua, especially in wrapping.

Knowing it is an internal style, is it then twisting energy?

BTW, I think its a good call on the splitting thing. I had not thought of it in that way, and that will undoubtedly help my practice of this technique, so thank you.

[Chris McKinley]

You're welcome. BTW, what style do you study? For some reason, I'm under the impression that you study Ninpo Taijutsu (might be lack of sleep).

[KC Elbows]

No nimpo(New handle, perhaps? Some such...).

Anyway, it's called six elbows kung fu, though the cantonese for it actually is something like "Stepping forward with crushing force", something like luk chua bi da, though I really doubt my spelling is anywhere near appropriate. It's a southern internal style made up of a really long empty hand form done tai chi pace except for certain moves with jing, and a spear form. The strength of the system is in very close in fighting and getting to that range, plus some really good power. Chun Man Sit, who teaches it in the US, also put together a number of forms that basically bridge the student from using the techniques externally to using the internal principles. Mostly he did this because he was losing students during the long period it takes some people to get down the six elbows stance, basically similar to the pa kua stance where your feet are pointed in toward each other, except the lead foot is hooked as if sweeping an opponent, and the weight is more to the rear leg.

The style is, to my knowledge, not an ancient style, but a more recent development(last 100 years) that utilizes techniques similar to hsing yi, pa kua, and mantis boxing, among other things.

[Mr. Nemo]

We would've called that ko bu, if I understand the explanation right.

[KC Elbows]

I'll ask my teacher if that's the name of the stance.