A strict kwoon:-Good or bad?

[logic]

In a kwoon or dojo, does how strict it is make you a better martial artist.do you think it helps a little or do you think it helps a lot?

In my kwoon if we are late for class it's 50 extra push ups.

there is no cursing at all.

No bad talking about another student or school.

bowing in and out of class.(of course)

When the bell rings to announce the start of class you immediatly stop what you are doing and line up in formation at attention.

If you are not going to make it to class you have to call with a reason.

and some other stuff.
I have a lot of self discipline and train often,and I feel like sh!t if I don't train.I believe it helps to some degree but I always said what you put into M.A. is what you get out of M.A. So I feel I would be the same without a strict kwoon.

Any thoughts

Honest Neutral Clarity

[DelicateSound]

I wish mine was like that. At my old judo dojo I never missed a session without a good reason, or I'd get "catch-up work". At my present kwoon, it's very formal. We still have a lot of respect for each other and for other schools, its just that I seem to miss more sessions these days, like the one I missed today (sniff). :)

"Tomorrow's life is too late. Live today."
Marcus Valerius Martialis

[DelicateSound]

TYPO: "It's very formal" SHOULD READ:

"It's NOT very formal", which makes much more sense.

See I miss one session... :rolleyes:

"Tomorrow's life is too late. Live today."
Marcus Valerius Martialis

[Budokan]

You think that's strict? That's normal, not strict.

K. Mark Hoover

[qeySuS]

I love discipline! That just makes the people that shouldnt/dont wanna be there leave faster.

One drawback though, i've started to bow to a lot of people when i shake their hand (not a big bow just a small one), and i've come very close to saying "yes kjosanim" to my teachers at school and stuff like taht (kjosanim is what you call TKD blackbelts up until 5th dan).

Free thinkers are dangerous!

[EARTH DRAGON]

As bodakan said that is not strict but normal. I run a tradtional 8 step school and we have all those rules and more. Although I tend to have fun with my students when I teach them I do not tolerate any kind of horse play or goofing off. Its OK to talk while class in in sesion as long as it is involving learning, but the hey did you see that movie or hows that new video game talking is only allowed during stretching time be fore and after class. you should be happy your teacher is strict. it instills good morales.

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[straight blast]

I go to training to train. If I can have a few laughs along the way all the better, but the prime reason I am there is to learn. I like discipline. I believe wholeheartedly that if you are late you should be doing pushups or whatever. I am always at least 20 minutes early for a class and the couple of times I've rocked up late due to traffic, roadworks etc. I've jumped down and done the pushups/warmup routine myself before the instructor has even asked me. I think it's a good thing.
What I think is a really good thing is calling if you can't make it. My old JingWu Sifu used to travel about 55 kilometers to teach. He made absolutely no profit whatsoever, just enough to hire the hall to train in, and sometimes enough to cover his fuel. There were times when he'd turn up and there would only be myself and maybe only two other people there, not enough to cover the hiring of the hall. We would pitch in the extra to cover his costs (voluntarily) but it wasn't fair that he had to drive all the way out to make a loss. If people had called, it would have been a s**tload easier.
Keep with your kwoon. Sounds good :cool:

"Forfeit the game
Before somebody else takes you out of the frame
And puts your name to shame
Cover up your face
You can't run the race
The pace is too fast,
You just won't last!"

[joedoe]

Our classes are much more easy-going. We impose punishments if people muck up, and also if you are late. We bow at the start and end of each class. But ultimately, the person training has to have the self discipline to train properly. They don't have to be there if they don't want to, and if they fail to train properly they are the ones who don't progress.

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You're fu(king up my chi

[Wongsifu]

discipline is cool as long as its discipline and not the teacher having an inferiority complex , some stuff is just screwed up like , if you aint gonna show to class you gotta call. or if you are late you do 50 push ups, if you are late and you cant make it , theres obviously a reason, calling will just delay the rest of the class as th esifu who has already started the lesson has to stop and answer th ephone.

other stuff is logical like startign as soon as the bell sounds, it wouldnt look good if you just picked your nose whilst the rest of the class is doing the push ups

This is because THC is not an alkaloid. It does not contain a nitrogen atom, therefore it is a terpenophenolic compound

[anerlich]

I agree with the rules of logic's kwoon. Pretty normal IMHO. Seniors also get punishment drills for not paying attention while the instructor is teaching. We also have a training dress code.

The only one of logic's rules that doesn't apply is calling if you are going to miss class, my kwoon has at least 18 classes a week and the phone would never stop ringing.

We have unwritten rules about the conduct of sparring with juniors and about respecting juniors. Most of these are basic human decency and common sense, but a few students get shown the door each year due to bad attitude, sexual harassment/stalking of female students, ripoffs, etc.

The only other rules we have are that everyone starts at the bottom and no one rides for free.

[Pika]

Punnished for arriving late?

We are all adults where I train. If work or other circumstances make you late, so be it.

[joedoe]

Would you arrive late to a business meeting? No? Why not? Because it is a sign of disrespect to not bother to make the effort to get there on time.

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You're fu(king up my chi

[rubthebuddha]

i think there's merits to always being on time, but some instructors just want to see you when you can get there.

i know a lot of old kwoons weren't set up so you'd show up exactly at 5:30 for class. timepieces weren't exactly the norm a ways back. so students just came when they could. was a bit more hit and miss, but such is life.

however, now with the way society has evolved, coming on time is important. i'd hate for one of my students to come to one of my introductory classes 15 minutes late and have to reintroduce the important elements of kim yee ma all over again.

considering i have about 45 minutes of time when my students break off from the main class to train with me and i have a lot to cover in very little time, i need every minute i can get. what's more, having to review it makes everyone suffer as they need the time i'd spend reviewing to be taught other stuff.

so i can see it both ways. as in most cases, it depends on the sifu and his or her preferences.

-rtb

[Satanachia]

The first thing i want to say is it depends on the kind of student you are as to what suits you best. Now that's out of the way...

Our training takes a completely different approach altogether to most people's here. And i mean completely different. But it is non-traditional...
Being directly attached to the university though, also means our class only contains adults.

In short, after you've paid money, we do whatever we really want. You don't want to turn up, don't turn up. You don't want to spar, don't spar. You want to spend the entire time working on drills, fine. Everyone does what they want to do, at whatever level of intesity they want.

Basically in training, we only do that which you couldn't do by yourself. So that means we don't do fitness stuff, you don't have to do pushups, or sit ups, or anything like that (of course some choose to anyway) because its up to you to do that stuff during your own time outside of class, either at home, or in a gym or whatever. In a class, we'll start with some kicking against shield thingies, then move on to our different punching drills against targets (kicks are sometimes thrown in in varying ammounts), then after that move onto grappling/chin na/special drill type things, and finish off with either sparring, wrestling, or continuing on what we were doing earlier. During each section, how hard you go is up to you, and the teacher will come around, tell you what your doing wrong, or if you're doing it right, demonstrate different points and applications and such and be open for absolutely any questions we have to ask. If you want to punch with huge gloves on, you can, but if you want to go barefist to try and simulate reality(which usually results in bloodied knuckles in begginers when they try to do it despite being warned against it) then you can. If you want to resist in the grappling techniques, go for it, since it helps with the realism, but if your partner asks you not to, have the courtesy to do so.

We don't have belts or rankings. I mean sure we've got begginers, and senior students and the teacher, but their really non-set definitions, since everyone works to help everyone else, sort of like one big happy family. If someone asks for help in a certain area, they always get it, and if someone wants to train a specific point or technique different to that which is being shown, they can.

We don't have any punishments (hell the bruises on the fore arms from blocking is often punishment enough).

We can curse if we want and talk perfectly normally.

We even pay each other out and occasionally make fun of each other when something stupid or funny happens, just like friends do.

In the end, you get out of it exactly what you want to. Everyone helps everyone else, senior students help begginers, begginers help seniors, sparing/grappling goes however hard or fast you want it to, and our teacher is always there to offer hints and tips about what is most likely to work, what happens when people resist or are too strong, etc.

The only real "traditional" part we have is the bowing at the end of class. But that's it.

Everyone there is mature and adult enough, and it works out absolutely perfectly. No disputes within our class, and everyone enjoys coming. And we all learn something. And in the warm-down part at the end of class, its like a small gossip session where we seem to talk about whatevers going on in the world or any topics on anyones mind, all of course while people are stretching and such so they aren't as sore the next day.

I'm not big on discipline. Someone else said it makes the people that don't want to be there leave faster, while i generally find the opposite to be true. In our club, its ONLY the people who want to be there who turn up, and its great.

For someone like me and for most other people in the class, it works out magnificently :D

[Pika]

You cannot compare work with training. Work pays you to be there, and yes, with a reason, you are not punnished for being late.

You pay your instructor, if you do not interupt others training by being late, the only person who id disadvantaged by missing training is you.

Punishment enough.

[joedoe]

I am not talking about a work meeting. What about a meeting with a client? What about a meeting with a friend? A meeting with your parish priest?

The bottom line is respect for the other person(s).

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You're fu(king up my chi

[Pika]

If I had a reason for being late, I would expect any reasonable person to accept that.

[straight blast]

It's a respect thing Pika. If you have a reason fair enough, but I like to show the instructor that I respect him enough to be ready to begin training the moment he arrives.
But mind you, I hate it when people are late for no reason, so I'm probably just imposing my own views on my training.

"Forfeit the game
Before somebody else takes you out of the frame
And puts your name to shame
Cover up your face
You can't run the race
The pace is too fast,
You just won't last!"

[Frank Exchange]

Our class trains the same informal way they do in Hong Kong.

If you are late, you are late. If you have to leave early, you leave early. If you want to stop and have a drink, or a sandwich, you stop.

There is no bowing. You show respect to people the same way you show respect to anyone outside a kungfu class, by being a nice person.

There are no pressups, or callesthenics at the beginning. If you want to do those, you do it at home. Why pay someone else for the privilege?

If you want to tell a joke, or swear if you get whacked, then tell the joke, or swear.

There are no punishments. Why should I pay someone to punish me? I could get that elsewhere. ;)

It probably sounds a bit anarchic compared to some of the military style karate classes I have seen, but it works extremely well, because only people who really want to learn stay for any length of time.

They way we see it, the urge to learn comes from within. If you dont have this, then you may not have the self discipline to learn kungfu anyway.


The chalice from the palace has the pellet with the poison,
The vessel with the pestle has the brew that is true!

[Wongsifu]

man i used to travel halfway aross the island for my lessons (which admittedly isnt that far) it took me over an hour , and i would leave work and go straight there. The instructor should be happy that i used to arrive at all let alone if i was 20 minutes late

This is because THC is not an alkaloid. It does not contain a nitrogen atom, therefore it is a terpenophenolic compound

[xiong]

Over the years I have been in everything from Parks & Recreation, to collegiate club, to professional school for training and my personal preference is for some formality but not alot of srictness. I agree that it is terrible to be late, but I am not 5 years old and do not need to learn to be on time through punishment. If I am late it is because they kept me at work or traffic was bad or both. If I'm already ****ed off about that, doing 50 pushups is not going to improve my attitude for this class or subsequent classes. I work hard to earn the money to pay for training, missing class time is punishment enough. And I think the instructor has to take the point of view that they can't rehash the whole lesson for the late person. Like making up assignments in school, it's up to the student.

The problem with fulfilling your potential is that then you don't have any potential left.

[Robinf]

I've found that the more "strict" the kwoon, the more likely people show up. Instead of "strict" I call it "structured". I think it's healthy to have structure.

Doing pushups if you're late is a matter of respect. Everyone has reasons for being late, but to get into the habit of excusing it is detrimental. It's no big deal to be late, but out of repsect for folks and the flow of the class once it starts, come in quietly and do a few pushups (50, I feel is extreme, but who am I to judge?). It's kind of saying that you can't just sneak in--we notice you weren't here and we notice you are here; you are not invisible. That's the way I see it. We've never had any complaints about it from anyone. In fact, some have said that it helps them refocus their mind from whatever it was that made them late (usually traffic) to just learning kung fu.

Robin

Surrender yourself to nature and be all that you are.

[scotty1]

I don't know, I think I can get on both ways.
I think horseplay that stops the rest of the class doing their thing should not be tolerated, but at the same time I don't want to be shouted at in front of my fellows for being late.
Some teachers suit one way or the other.

"Some people, irrespective of skill, are just wankers." -Satanachia

[shaolinboxer]

In my kwoon if we are late for class it's 50 extra push ups.

- I never liked this rule. We all have hard lives with a lot of responsibilities. Being late is not a reflection of goofy off and does not deserve punishment. It means you were working hard and still made the time to train.

there is no cursing at all.

- I suppose that's fine.

No bad talking about another student or school.

- Also fine, but you'd hope this rule wouldn't have to be a rule. It dpends on what bad talking is....criticism should be invited as long as it is constructive and honest.

bowing in and out of class.(of course)

- I like this rule. Bowing in and out is a way of signaling to yourself "training on/ training off".

When the bell rings to announce the start of class you immediatly stop what you are doing and line up in formation at attention.

- Normal enough.

If you are not going to make it to class you have to call with a reason.

-This is a BAD rule. Rules like this start to cross the border between school and cult. Your life is yours. Your training is yours. You should not have to answer to anyone about your schedule (except maybe your wife/husband ;) ).

[Shaolindynasty]

I don't see a problem with rules and structure. I don't run my classes like a military karate school though. That's probally cause I'm so young though, I'm 20 so I think some 30 or 40 year old would resent it if I started yelling at him for being late. On the other hand my class does have structure, everyone is expected to arrive on time. I don't like the idea of punishing people with exercise(talking about the kids class since I don't punish adults) That would make them feel like exercise is a punishment right? ;) So I make them sit out if they don't do as I tell them. Kids need to be punished somtimes, Adults should have the sense to know that even though they pay for the lesson it is still a privlige to learn Kungfu and to respect everyone. I would never expect people to call me if they can't show but somtimes they do, maybe because I show them respect so they show it back.


www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net (http://www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net)

[Robinf]

There really shouldn't be yelling at any adults, especially if you're teaching and you're younger than the student learning from you. I was raised to respect elders, no matter what. I may not like the elder, but I will respect him/her. This doesn't mean I have to let them cut in line, it just means I'm polite and explain I was there and I'm not invisible.

Pushups when entering late, also get the heart going a little while causing the least amount of distraction (jumping jacks are distracting).

Kids, on the other hand, are a bit easier to handle. We don't yell often, so it's effective when we have to yell (last resort). I've gotten creative in disciplining classes and kids. If I see a few students or the entire class beginning to goof around, I join in leading a blitz of calestenics and go right back to what we were doing. The kids usually settle in to the exercise better that way. For single kids causing comotion, I have them come to the front of the class and lead (depending on the kid, some are too inexperienced). They settle down, usually. The kids who are too inexperienced end up doing pushups or doing their form or combination backward (if that's what we're working on). In sparring, off comes the gear and they sit out.

Robin

Surrender yourself to nature and be all that you are.

[Mutant]

At times in my life I have trained in strictly disciplined MA schools and more informal MA schools. It depends on what kind of environment you need to motivate you to train as hard and effectively as possible.
And it depends on where you are in life, if youre a kid who needs the discipline aspect of it then I would recommend that environment. Or if youre an adult that needs strict formality and rules to motivate you then go for it, do whatever it takes to push you harder and learn more.
Personally I prefer the informal approach. I often have to work late and am just happy to make it to class and get a good work out in. And I push myself very hard and train until I am exhausted. I really don't need anyone in my face enforcing discipline, at this point that would be a distraction from my training. There are enough rules in my life as it is, in my personal training time, I don't want anyone police-ing me.
Besides, some of the strictest most formal schools I know of suck and turn out terrible fighters...but they make great day care centers, alternatives to the Boy Scouts, or Sado-Masochist training camps for kissing some 'grand masters' a$$!!! ;)

-MutantWarrior

"Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checked by failures...than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."
-Theodore Roosevelt

[logic]

I went to a pretty strict karate school for about 8 1/2 years and my kwoon is really not much stricter.
I don't know how my sifu handles his kids class,it's a different earlier class.
I always show up about 15 minutes early and the other students about 10 minutes early, only one time I saw another student have to do push ups.(My sifu gives a lot of warnings at first)only if it's happening to often does he react.
If someone screws up or fall flat on their can,oh yeah we laugh and we'll let em hear about it and we might bring it up in the future Jokingly of corse.Thats not bad talking someone.
My sifu does not yell or get in your face he is quite calm.It's just that these rules are expected of the student who attends are kwoon.
He told the one student that was late at the end of class to do his push ups,when people were getting ready to leave so not many of the other students heard.

If my class was a little more easy going I would still train the same as now.But the class is O.K. by me, if I didn't like it of if he did get in my face I would just leave.

Honest Neutral Clarity

[Shaolindynasty]

"Besides, some of the strictest most formal schools I know of suck and turn out terrible fighters...but they make great day care centers, alternatives to the Boy Scouts, or Sado-Masochist training camps for kissing some 'grand masters' a$$!!! "

This is sooo true! :)


www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net (http://www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net)

[joedoe]

Really, our class is not that strict. You only get pushups if you are more than say 5 minutes late, and then it's not that many pushups. If you have a good reason for being late, then fine. I have a real problem with people who purposefully arrive late so they miss the hard parts of class (usually the warm up).

You have to impose some discipline when you have 40-50 people of varying ages (mostly between 15 - 25) in a fairly enclosed space. Otherwise silly things happen and people get hurt (this obviously doesn't apply to the arriving late thing - that's about respect).

When I teach a class, I impose discipline to ensure the safety of the students and to ensure that the students learn to respect each other and the instructors. I do not believe in military style classes.

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You're fu(king up my chi

[tiger lui]

We too conduct classes the informal Hong Kong way as Frank Exchange describes,we do anything we want,nothing if you do choose.We are a family,we love and respect our sifu like a father and for some a true friend.Now if our sifu asks anything of us we do it without esitation,whether it be painfull,tiring,costly or time consuming.As he states,we are all intelligent adults,once shown we know what we need to do to get results.He can show you the door but carent make you open it and step through,its entirely up to you and consequently it will show him your discipline and dedication.cheer :)