Southern Praying Mantis Videos

[seqlogan@hotmail.com]

I wonder if anyone had videos or footages on Southern Praying Mantis performed by Master Malcolm Sue of Australia he or she would like to trade copies of with me. I have many tapes on bagua, xingyi and taiji and I could give copies of some of these in return.

[Ginger Fist]

--sue doesn't do spm anymore, didn't do it very good when he was in the pai ;) y the video hunt? spm way different than ? you study, won't help u any.

[Hiram]

By what measure should SPM form be judged?

[mantis-1]

but i you manage to get onto paul whitrods site he has spm videos and i have found them to help me a lot in my studies. some are instructional and others are seminars featuring sifu ip chee keung good luck

[Ginger Fist]

By what measure should SPM form be judged?

--root, jing, smoothness, proper structure ... from outside it should look effortless

[fiercest tiger]

what do you think of sifu tony leungss iron wire southern mantis system? i think he has been kicked out of chow gar, im not sure!! :)

come & visit us!
http://home.iprimus.com.au/ykm
yaukungmun@hotmail.com

[mantis-1]

i never trained under tony leung but i train with some of his ex students after he stopped teaching they are good strong bridging and chy sau so all good as far as i can see

[Ginger Fist]

what do you think of sifu tony leungss iron wire southern mantis system?

--i don't think of it at all :D

i think he has been kicked out of chow gar, im not sure!!

--no loss either way--chow gar is way 2 stiff, not spm--maybe cadaver gar is a better name for it ;)

[Andrew]

Tony Leung, was never kicked out of Chow Gar.
In fact, Tony Leung never flew the Chow Gar
banner. Sifu Leung studied under a Chu gar sifu
and then under Yip Siu and not David Yip as is
sometimes misreported.

Sifu Leung, flys the steel wire banner because
he wanted to use the knowledge he had learnt from
his Hung gar,Chu gar,Chow gar, Chen Tai chi
backgrounds.

[Ginger Fist]

Sifu Leung, flys the steel wire banner because
he wanted to use the knowledge he had learnt from
his Hung gar,Chu gar,Chow gar, Chen Tai chi
backgrounds.

--good 4 him if he is able to make the different systems work to the advantage of his students. kwongsai jook lum tong long needs no such additions, it is complete as is.

[David]

Andrew, Tony Leung did study under David Ip in England during the '70s.

Ginger-Fist - thanks for insulting Chow Gar. On a general note: anyone who mixes styles and includes SPM in the mix is onto a good thing, IMHO. Regarding Tony Leung: faced with the evidence of his students that abound in the UK, it would be nonsense to infer that he has no knowledge or power. The guy's a kungfu monster from what I gather.

[Aussie John]

Good'ay David,
Right on point! Leung Sifu and Sue Sifu have many years of knowledge and experience, and in particularly proven themselves in real street combats.

Sue Sifu's modified system may not be the same as the original Chow Gar tong long, but it works in real situations, because I seen it against many experienced street fighters back in the early 80s.

Many Sue Sifu's students and grandstudents have gained real combat skills and confident through his teaching, and felt safe to walk the street late at night. I was one of them!

I personally have trained in Chow Gar and Jook Lum Lee Yin Sing Pai, and found both systems are benefical to the development of the yang and yin power.

I have also seen many brotherhood of SPM pais, and found they are just as effective as ever. Is not about the style or styles, is about the way you train and use it to your own advantage, and that's the key to real training.


Good luck to your training (without dogma).


Aussie John.

[fiercest tiger]

One of my old students was from sifu Tony Leung and he showed me a video of some of the his seminars and training methods. i know one thing is he definetly has some power and i used to love reading his column "roots of kung fu".

so has he been shut down from teaching or decided to stop?:)

[Andrew]

Unfortunantly SPM, is filled with internal politics and wrangling.
This only goes to cloud the effectiveness of the style. Unfortunantly this post will only contiune that legacy,

David, I believe you are student of David Yip. Whatever you've
been told, Sifu Leung took the tea ceremony with Ip Shui,
Ip Shui is Sifu Leung's sifu. There are pictures to prove and
validate this.

There is a soft side to Chow Gar mantis, the problem is that
I don't think a lot of people know it, due to politics. Ip Shui,
himself, is very internal so I dont think this side is lacking.

Sifu Leung has stopped teaching, but I have witnessed his
power and his martial skills, he really is a 'kung fu' fighter and
he has used his martial skills, so whatever anyone says I
know his skills and I am quite proud to call him my sifu.

Andrew

[Ginger Fist]

Ginger-Fist - thanks for insulting Chow Gar.

i say it as i c it--don't blame me for chow gar being wooden, blame chow gar

On a general note: anyone who mixes styles and includes SPM in the mix is onto a good thing, IMHO.

???? r u stupid or just inexperienced?

[mantis-1]

:confused: i say it as i c it--don't blame me for chow gar being wooden, blame chow gar

On a general note: anyone who mixes styles and includes SPM in the mix is onto a good thing, IMHO.

???? r u stupid or just inexperienced?

The other day when I read your post insulting spm...I looked at your profile. It said you studied spm/traditional chinese martial arts...yet when I look now after more post on the subject of spm it seems to have disapeared....maybe it's because the forum moved but makes me wonder.

And as for the other comment if the styles mixed with spm work well together there is nothing wrong with it. I studied in a jook lum tai chi combination for a while and whitnessed my sifu blend the styles well, and if what you are saying about mixing styles is true then bruce lee's spent a lot of his life being stupid and inexperienced...

[Ginger Fist]

The other day when I read your post insulting spm...

--i don't insult spm ... just those who claim to know ? they don't. direct from the temple, 3 generations in my family, straight to my hands, i am 4th gen.

I looked at your profile. It said you studied spm/traditional chinese martial arts...yet when I look now after more post on the subject of spm it seems to have disapeared....maybe it's because the forum moved but makes me wonder.

--ur wonder is wonderful, enjoy!

And as for the other comment if the styles mixed with spm work well together there is nothing wrong with it.

--that's ur opinion gweilo. those who do ? u r arguing 4 r saying they have more knowledge & skill than the inventors & those who refined the system. who's the ego overdrive jerk in this case?

I studied in a jook lum tai chi combination for a while and whitnessed my sifu blend the styles well,

--so ... u studied 4 a while, & now u put out ur opinion that ur sifu blended it well. name ur spm teacher's teacher, perhaps my mother or grandmother knows him. btw ... ? experience do u have that makes u so sure it was jl spm or even blended well?

and if what you are saying about mixing styles is true then bruce lee's spent a lot of his life being stupid and inexperienced...

--u said it better than me. jun fan was nothing, created nothing, left nothing. when u quit mistakening movie for reality u might have a chance. btw ... if u want to read jun fan's philosophy, read J. Krishnamurti's works ... that's where jun fan stole it from.

[fiercest tiger]

LOL you crack me up man! i like it ALOT!:D

[bong]

Montana is a big state.

Have you met with Chin (Norman) Sifu's senior student?
I have heard that his skill is great.

[lightfoot]

Just thought I'd second the comments on Tony Leung. The guy has power down to his fingertips.

I'll always be grateful to him for showing me what a kung fu class should be like.

[Andrew]

I know I'm going to be putting petrol on the fire, but
Ginger Fist is right to some extend. Some Chow
Gar mantis practioners are very stiff. They have incredible
explosive power and incredible shock power,
the have 'stupid' power, for lack of a better description.
'Stupid' power is power, which is unable to change,
or be diverted. Part of the reason for this in my opinion
is the chy sau, forgive the spelling. But as with mantis
there are several levels to all your training.

You start hard, then become soft, then have a mix of those
both. The 'stiff' practioners are only those that have
done the first level of training. There are loads of soft exercises
to train sensitivity and to train your reactions. You cannot
use fa jing, or shock power if you are stiff. Also if you look at
all the other branches of SPM, chu gar, Jook lum, Iron Ox
they are all fairly soft/internal styles. Its as I said before
because of issues with Chow Gar, the soft side has not
been promoted or taught to a lot of people. Thats why
alot of Chow gar practioners have studied Tai Chi as well.
The two styles have a close correlation. In Chow gar Shock
power is generated from the arm, initally with Tai Chi
Fa Jing is generated through the hip and torso. Basically
one is the close range version of the other and vice versa.

Andrew

[Ginger Fist]

Montana is a big state.

--instead of big sky country it should have been called blue balls country, winter sucks, i go elsewhere when the chance comes.

Have you met with Chin (Norman) Sifu's senior student?

--we do not know him. care 2 say his lineage?

I have heard that his skill is great.

--ok

[Ginger Fist]

... but Ginger Fist is right to some extend.

--u've done nothing 2 make friends with that sorta stuff

Some Chow Gar mantis practioners are very stiff.

--they r dead, they just don't know it

... 'stupid' power, for lack of a better description.

--the word is wooden

Its as I said before because of issues with Chow Gar, the soft side has not been promoted or taught to a lot of people.

--? issues, people being taught incomplete is wrong

Thats why alot of Chow gar practioners have studied Tai Chi as well.

--the right word is stupid. stupid 2 have 2 go 1 place 4 this part, another place 4 another part ...

The two styles have a close correlation. In Chow gar Shock
power is generated from the arm, initally with Tai Chi
Fa Jing is generated through the hip and torso. Basically
one is the close range version of the other and vice versa.

--?ever, real kjl tl is complete. we don't need no stinking tai chi

[Andrew]

--u've done nothing 2 make friends with that sorta stuff

Maybe, I just like living on the edge, cos I'm crazy like that.:D

--? issues, people being taught incomplete is wrong

True, but I cant reveal the issues on a public board,
it would just bring more problems on Chow gar.
But these issues have stopped Chow gar being successful.
If you go to Hong Kong, there are a handful of Chow
Gar schools. The old man 'Ip Shui' no longer teaches.

But I've been told that there are loads of Chu Gar schools,
even in one street I'm told that there are 5 schools alone.
So the style can be succesful.

--the right word is stupid. stupid 2 have 2 go 1 place 4 this part, another place 4 another part ...

No, no one person can ever be good at everything. Kungfu
is 1500 years old, how many thousands of people practised
it, used it. Everybody has something to offer, if you have a
weakness than you wish to rectify it. If you have a strength
you wish to promote it.

Andrew

[David]

ginger fist, you're behaving like an ignorant trolling f*ck. Who are you?

Chow Gar is not incomplete. Only a practitioner's understanding of it can be incomplete.

Taiji is of a par with SPM and therefore I reckon it doesn't stink

[Steven T. Richards]

Hello Andrew,

Not all SPM is the same. There are some people who will say that it is, and sometimes the motive for that is to appropriate the title of SPM to their particular way of doing it.

The variations are huge. Sometimes the differences between Pai are less than those to be found within a pai - as in the various sub-branches that proliferate.

For example some Pai do not use a 'Ginger Fist' saying that it is too weak to be effective, others use it a lot - almost as much or even more than say the Fung-An phoenix eye fist.

Some Pai spring from the elbows, some from the shoulders, some root their feet solidly, some twist the feet and waist with the shoulders to make up the power chain.

Some emphaise doi-chong's and chy-sau, some mor-kiu and san-sau.

Some say Som-Bo-Gin is the foundation of the art of SPM, some say it (SBG) is 'nothing', some say SBG is a name used for doing a basic form that is very different between pai - all that is the same being the name, the form, mechanics, structure and technique being so very different. Some say having a 'name' for something is not the same thing as understanding it.

Popularity of a Pai doesn't define its success, unless popularity is held to be the only measure thereof.

What you get under the collective noun SPM is a convenient classification of very different systems under one apparent family.

But then, familial diversity is a good thing - it helps survival as in adaptive radiation: Darwin's Finches (Darwin's Mantis's).

:)

[Andrew]

Mr Richards, thanks for your reply. You already know me or
I should say I've already introduced myself. I emailed you
about Master Jimmy Chan, last year. I've been rathe quite
of late.

I stand corrected about SPM pai. I did make a generalisation
in terms of Chow gar being like Chu Gar, or in all SPM being
the same. As you said strength in diversity, if everyone was
the same. All the girls would look like my mum. :D

I was trying to say, that some people in the Chow Gar Pai,
had held back alot of stuff. I shouldn't really have mentioned
it, as its sort of displaying your dirty washing in public. A
consequence is that the Pai is not as strong as it could be.

Part of the problem is the camp, that I'm in has alot of
negative feelings/opinons. As such it has rub of on me.
But as soon as people, get together, they start arguing.
Its not MA that is the problem, its people.

Andrew

[Steven T. Richards]

Hello Andrew,

Sorry I didn't recognise you from your mail. No critique intended, I just addressed the message to you as you seemed a reasonable fellow and you raised interesting points.

How is the old Hung-Gar school? It's been a long time since I spoke with any of them.

I agree with your point - human nature is at the root of it all - good and bad.

BTW, I've an autobiography out now in two volumes that covers my time with the late Master Chan.

Regards,

Steve.

[Ginger Fist]

No, no one person can ever be good at everything.

--u make my point well ... find complete style u like & stay with it 2 the bitter end ... it's ur only chance

Kungfu is 1500 years old, ...

--much ... much older

Everybody has something to offer, if you have a
weakness than you wish to rectify it.

--ur weakness is ur weakness ... not the style's problem ... urs ... work hard 2 find the answers

If you have a strength you wish to promote it.

--ur argument means that i would have 1 car 4 going 2 the supermarket, small 2 get around the crazy shoppers & park easy, with tons of cargo space 4 groceries ... another 4 fun, 2 seater, fast, nice style 2 it ... another 4 ... find a style u like ... find the answers 2 ur failings in ur style ... stay with it 2 the bitter end

[Ginger Fist]

ginger fist, you're behaving like an ignorant trolling f*ck. Who are you?

--i'm an ignorant trolling f*ck u stupid f*artbiter

Chow Gar is not incomplete. Only a practitioner's understanding of it can be incomplete.

--chow gar done really well might make it 2 bl*ows donkey ba*lls
level ... su*cks ... poisoned ... could have been something 1 time ... now it is cadaver gar

Taiji is of a par with SPM and therefore I reckon it doesn't stink

--so ? ... very few even know tai chi ch'uan stupid little boy. most tai chi su*cks so u r right ... suc*ky tai chi is = 2 suc*ky chow gar ... big deal gweilo

[Andrew]

Steve,
No critique taken, from the brief exchange we had and from
reading through your book. I respect you and your opinons
and you have been in this 'game' a long time, so I'm always
willing to listen and to learn.

Much like yourself, I haven't talked to anyone in the old
school for the last 3 years. I always feel a little guilty when
Chinese new year comes round. Though I have meet some
of the students down here in London.

I look forward to your autobiography, I'll make an effort to
find and read it.

Andrew

[Steven T. Richards]

Hello Andrew,

Lots of great Chow-Gar instructors in the UK. Tony Leung is in my opinion one of them. Others that I know of personally include Paul Whitrod, Mark Leung, and Tony Willis.

In my experience, the Chow-Gar Pai have great dignity and martial virtue. I like and respect them very much.

Si-Fu Tony Leung attended a meeting in Nov. 1990 held in Birmingham UK to mark the 20th anniversary of the passing of my Si-Gung Great-Grandmaster Lee-Yin-Sing. Tony performs on the video of the event. Many Hakka Masters were there from Jook-Lum Mantis (Lee-Yin-Sing's and Wong-Yuk-Gong's Pai's) Pak-Mei, Lung-Ying Kuen, Chow-Gar etc.

Tony was obvioulsly welcome and acknowledged as Chow-Gar Tong-Long.

I remember he got a lot of criticism in the '80's for formulating his 'Steel-Wire Mantis'. Tony is authentic and has the right background and experience for the creation of such an art.

On the subject of 'complete' systems, that's a moot issue. What precisely defines 'complete' I wonder, in the martial arts context.
Short of a Bruce Lee JKD aspirational venture, no art can be complete in an all-encompassing sense. As it is argueable that Bruce Lee never achieved his stated aim (he was an example of deconstructionism or post-modernity in the martial arts - and such systems eventually reduce to absurdity before becoming exemplars of the very thing that they despise - neo traditional monistic systems), then maybe we should accept that rival monisms (polarised single styles) is the order of things, the tension between them being creative (often enough) to allow a gradual movement forward in the development of the arts as a whole.

Complete as in a 'closed system' is another thing altogether.
Such systems are self-contained, and in that regard may be considered as 'complete.

Cheers Andrew,

Steve.

[Steven T. Richards]

Hello Andrew,

Thanks for your kind remarks. You could obtain the autobiography
from:

www.newbreedbooks.co.uk

or, a little cheaper direct from me, personally signed;)

Best Regards,

Steve.

[Andrew]

Okay, a signed copy sounds good. I'm not sure if you are still at
your old email address, but you can contact me on
aamc_99@yahoo.co.uk.

Andrew

[Colin]

No one ever denied that Tony Leung sifu, had great fighting skills, it was just his attitude that p!ssed alot of people off.
I can't remember the actual words but along the lines of "You can only learn real kung fu from a chinese instructor" was one of them.

That rates up there with Loren Hill's classic quote of: " I'd rather see my children starve than have white people buy my records".

I thought Tony Leung was living in hong kong now anyway.

Colin.........

[Steven T. Richards]

Colin,

I take your point re the statement that you can only learn from a Chinese. That said, it isn't really any different from the vast majority of Chinese, most 'old school' masters would say the same kinda thing.

It raises a very moot point about what happens to a culturally specific art like 'Chinese' Kung-Fu when it transposes into another culture. There will be effects, changes, conservatism etc all existing and competing at the same time.

To me the 'saddest' thing of all after nearly 36 yrs in martial arts, 29 of them in Kung-Fu, is the number of westerners who take on chinese affectations, and even inflections in their voice, trying real hard to be what they will never be.

The real changes are happening right now and have been since TCMA were openly taught in the west. Being a part of that process we sometimes miss the dynamics for change that are at work.

You never know, you might have an imporatnt part to play yourself...