repeatedly smashing your bones and muscles?

[Dragon Warrior]

anyone know if ther are long term effects to smashing your bones and muscles all the time. Every week after i sparr, i have black and blue marks all over my shins. My shins are now super hard and have bumps all over them, but will this have negative effects in the long term?

What about the forearms, and ribs. I do a lot of forearm ironbody training, and will this have negative effects in the future?

For years, religion did nothing but divide. (killa priest)

Religion is like a prison for the seekers of wisdom. (killa priest)

[Repulsive Monkey]

The most obvious damage to be done by this kind of practice initially is Qi and Blood Stagnation. When ever you have a bruise and its hurt it signifies Blood stagnation by the Purple/Blue/Black under-skin discolouration, and the dull pain which signifies the Qi Stagnation. Qi stagnation over time can create more chronic energetic blockages which will become harder to unblock and will result possibly in the onset of numbness frequent pins and needles and limbs being prone to the cold etc. The truth is Bones are not meant (muscles too for that fact) for that kind of punishment and althopugh people have varying degrees of tolerance most people later in life, if their experience Arthritis will probably wish they hadn't put rthemselves through such long term regimes.

[IronFist]

Not a flame:

I don't get why people always say this? How can conditioning your SHINS or FOREARMS cause arthritis later in life? Shins and forearms are bones, not joints. Arthritis affects joints, not straight bones.

Sorry if that sounds harsh, but I've been hearing people say that for years and I don't get it.

But at any rate, be careful if you're conditioning any part of your body. If you're bruising you're trying to progress too fast. Slow down.

Iron

"Now why the **** would you censor "d.ork?"

Ironman PostLog: 1100 - 11/20/01

"Don't you get cose to me with that knofe or I'll have to dofond mosolf!" - KC Elbows

[ElPietro]

Iron I think what they mean when they say conditioning your shins can lead to arthritis isn't directly from your shins. But when you are slamming your shins into a heavybag or whatever, you are putting a lot of stress on you joints, (ie. ankle, knee, hip) and as you condition your shins you are increasing your power which also incrementally increases stress on joints.

I don't know how true this is or not...I don't let the threat of possibly getting arthritis stop me from training but I do supplement with glucosamine which may help aid my joints in fighting against the stress I put them through...

[SanHeChuan]

i'd like to add a question

Does forearm training desensitize you, i.e. killing nerves or just increase you tolerance to pain?

i think rolling them kills nerves

Hitting them increases bone density

Would hitting a heavy bag kill nerves?

[fmann]

Mechanical loading of bone does stimulate bone growth, but more so longitudinally then transversely, mostly because of the way bones and bone plates are shaped (long and skinny). Shin conditioning imho should increase bone density in the long run, but not as immediately or immensely as say running every day.

As for desensitization and tolerance to pain, it's basically the same thing at a nervous level -- you become tolerant because your nerves are desensitized. Or the response from the nerves are desensitized by mechanisms further upstream from the pain receptor.

Smashing your blood vessels in your shins and forearms could also have repercussions in the future ala varicose veins and stuff like that. As the healed walls of the blood vessels will be scar tissue, and not the natural vascular tissue.

[denali]

simply put, people who say that you will damage yourself don't know how to train it properly.

[Fu-Pow]

First....

If you are doing any kind of "hard body" conditioning you need to have a good herbal liniment (ie Dit Da Jao) to use on your fore arms and shins. If this is not available at the very least you need to use rubbing alchohol (what boxer use) on your bruises. From what I understand this allows your bruises to heal properly. If you don't do this you will sustain permanent injury to the striking area over time.

Secondly, go slow. People want instant results so they go too hard at first. This kind of conditioning should be a gradual process. (To the SiHing's out there, you need to gauge the level of your SiDai before beating the **** out of there appendages. I had a Sihing who permanently screwed up the tendon in my wrist by whacking it real hard when I was just a beginner. )

Thirdly, in CMA we have a concept called Chan Si Jing or "twisting energy". All powerful blocking and attacking movements should have this element so you are never really hitting bone against bone in a static kind of way. You may be blocking but the movement should also be moving forward ( or backward) in a way so that your bones don't take the full force of the blow.

What I'm saying is that having powerful blocks is not all about beating the **** out of your arms. The conditioning is more for the event that you SCREW UP your block or attack and you hit your bones.

If your school doesn't incorporate Chan Si Jing then you are not doing CMA.

[joedoe]

Desensitization and tolerance for pain are not the same thing. When you desensitive, you damage the nerve endings so that you cannot feel the pain. Tolerating pain is learning to deal with the pain that you are feeling.

I have always been taught that desensitizing your arms and legs is a bad thing, especially when sensitivity and listening are such an integral part of so many CMAs. Conditioning your limbs to build strength, and conditioning your mind to deal with the pain are what I have always been taught to do.

[SanHeChuan]

how do you train your mind to deal with pain without subjecting it to that pain.

I haven't been doing any hardcore iron bone training, but i have been hitting the heavy bag (not a very dense one) alot, It hurts, i push on, and i seem to gain focus.

I know i need some dit da jow or something, but can you give me a better way to condition the mind for pain.

i remember a while back i was sparring and caught someones knee in my shin, and it rocked me to the core, my bone marrow hurt, i kept going for a while then said **** this and sat down, I dont what that to happen again, so what can i do?

[SevenStar]

It won't - if you do it right. The point of shin condiditoning - at least in in MT - is to deaden the nerves. once that's been done, the shin may be used in a fashion similar to a bat. If you are getting bruises, you are progressing too fast. Improper training over a long period of time can cause bone damage. Does hair still grow on your shins? If it does, then they are not full confitioned yet.

[scotty1]

I'll probably get told that if you do it right there's no problem,
BUT the initial question was
"anyone know if there are long term effects to smashing your bones and muscles all the time?"
Analyse the question -"smashing your bones and muscles all the time"- does that sound like something that wouldn't cause long term damage?

[dedalus]

Fmann's reply was very good, and I would like to add that although capillaries aren't very robust structures when regarded individually, they do posess a remarkable ability to regenerate under the right conditions. As I understand it, its really only the big veins and arteries you have to worry about over time.

I seem to remember from neuroanatomy classes that peripheral nerve cells are also quite good at regeneration, although there are many constraints on this. If I remember correctly, regenerative growth is unidirectional (proximal to distal), but someone like Braden or Chris M ought to be able to clear that up. I know there's some catch with crush injury.

One more point on the sensitivity question. Pain theories are still just that, but there's plenty of evidence that mechanism(s) of some sort exist to modulate signals and their perceptual registration. I think it would be fair to suggest that there's also natural variation in pain thresholds amongst individuals. One claim that is *not* supported is that distal damage of pain nerves leads to a reduction in the experience of pain from that region. There's some fascinating literature out there on amputees, for instance, who continue to feel pain in their so-called phantom limbs, and as you might imagine, its a bugger of thing to treat.

In answer to the original question, though - I dunno :( I try not to bash my own monkey around too much. Perhaps you could try some internal (qigong) conditioning? Someone here recently linked to a study on visualisation as a muscle workout... you might take some encouragement from that.

[dedalus]

Fmann's reply was very good, and I would like to add that although capillaries aren't very robust structures when regarded individually, they do posess a remarkable ability to regenerate under the right conditions. Its the big veins and arteries you have to worry about over time.

I seem to remember from neuroanatomy classes that peripheral nerve cells are also quite good at regeneration, although there are many constraints on this. If I remember correctly, regenerative growth is unidirectional (proximal to distal), but someone like Braden or Chris M ought to be able to clear that up. I know there's some catch with crush injury.

One more point on the sensitivity question. Pain theories are still just that, but there's plenty of evidence that mechanism(s) of some sort exist to modulate signals and their perceptual registration. I think it would be fair to suggest that there's also natural variation in pain thresholds amongst individuals. One claim that is *not* supported is that distal damage of pain nerves leads to a reduction in the experience of pain from that region. There's some fascinating literature out there on amputees, for instance, who continue to feel pain in their so-called phantom limbs, and as you might imagine, its a bugger of thing to treat.

In answer to the original question, though - I dunno :( I try not to bash my own monkey around too much.

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

I think its ok to bash your bones and muscles alot. Yim Gook Gai involves basing your hand on a slab of blue stone, and rubbing salt on it and baking them in hot rice.

Ask any chef in a chinese restaurant and they'll know the recepie. Gosh you're all so stupid.

[scotty1]

LOL at Ego. I know I shouldn't.:D

[SanHeChuan]

I do a lot of stuff I shouldn't do, smoking:( , drinking:mad:, whoring;), having unprotected sex:eek:, eating raw meat:o, ****ing dead animals :rolleyes:, but sometimes just sometimes the benefits of those negative actions out weigh the consequences:rolleyes:, if proper iron bone/body training had such negative effects in old age i doubt that the masters would have continued to teach it. and obviously i'm not going to live that long anyway.:D

now as for improper training...
i doubt that my hitting the heavy bag is going to do too much damage.:rolleyes:

[alecM]

I see Di(k head_Extrodinaire is back

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Smashing one's bones against another's is usually not a good thing as is sticking one's finger in the eye. Forgive me for stating the obvious as I'm simply replying to someone who might need to be pointed out the obvious.

[SanHeChuan]

but if you dont poke your self in the eyes how are you ever going to master the Iron orb technique so that you can withstand the deadly finger jab techniques. ;)

[Dragon Warrior]

Sevenstar

Where did you get that idea that hair stops growing on your shins when they are fully conditioned. Is there any validity to that.

My shins have pretty thick calcium deposits all over them through all of the years i have been sparring. I am just curious if this will cause negative long term effects?

The forearm conditioning i do is usually three point arm training. does anyone here experience negative effects from this?

thanx

[ElPietro]

Originally posted by Dragon Warrior
Sevenstar

Where did you get that idea that hair stops growing on your shins when they are fully conditioned. Is there any validity to that.

I've heard of this...and seen it too. It makes sense if you are continually slamming your shin into a heavy bag you will damage hair follicles rendering them unable to grow hair anymore. That's my uneducated explanation to it. But i've seen guys with hair growing on parts of their shin and not others and they say it stopped growing after training for a while.