Wing chun/ bau gwa

[CanadianBadAss]

The system of wing chun I train in has some bau gwa in it. Ex. One of the drills we do has 2 people circle walking together, with there wing chun guard up and their lead hands touching in the middle. Basically the 2 people try to hit each other using wing chun techniques while circle walking. Any way, do any bau gwa schools practice stuff like that?

|) /- | | |
| / |_| |__

[Chris McKinley]

Walking around in a circle doing Wing Chun no more qualifies as practicing Baguazhang than a TKD stylist punching vertically qualifies as practicing WC. Baguazhang has several 2-man drills, some of which involve the circle.

[CanadianBadAss]

...that was just one example of drill where the 2 styles are used together. I would've listed all the drills, forms and what not for you, but I didn't plan on dealing with idiots.

Hmmm... My question wasn't very clear, I guess I was trying to ask if bag wa is usually mixed with another style? Because the few times I've heard about bag wa it always seems to be with another style. Is this because bag wa isn’t a complete system on its own?

|) /- | | |
| / |_| |__

[count]

Bagua is a complete system. Bagua has many drills that involve walking circles with a partner but there is a little more to it than that. Maybe you can describe what you are doing while you are walking?

Do you change directions? Do you walk backwards? Do you just stay on a circle or do you try and cut across and steel the circle? Do you change levels where you contact with your opponent or levels of height that you stand? What are you doing with your feet? How is the step? Is your waist twisting in? What is the focus? Do you see any similarities in bagua and wing chung at all?

hmmm, maybe in trying to help I added more questions than answers? Guess that's because of my limited knowledge of wing chung. Oh well :confused: Do you think wing chung is a complete system?

Count

Kabooom.com (http://kabooom.com)

Chi Kung International (http://chikungintl.com)


http://kabooom.com/af.gif
_ˇ

[Chris McKinley]

RE: "I would've listed all the drills, forms and what not for you, but I didn't plan on dealing with idiots.". Neither did I, so no offense intended. Internal styles aren't something you can just borrow a few bits and pieces from and still claim to be teaching the art.

RE: "...I guess I was trying to ask if bag wa is usually mixed with another style?". No, it usually is not. At least not anymore than any other art. If it IS mixed, it will most commonly be found being taught with Xing Yi Quan, sometimes also with Taijiquan, but that's about it.

RE: "Because the few times I've heard about bag wa it always seems to be with another style. Is this because bag wa isn’t a complete system on its own?". No. Baguazhang is one of the more complete systems, with the only context left uncovered being groundfighting. In fact, that is one of the reasons why Baguazhang is not usually taught as an add-on to other styles. The sentiment being: why study a ho-hum art that's been spiced up with a little bit of the good stuff when you could cut right to the chase and study Baguazhang (in this case) full-time.

BTW, for those Wing Chun practitioners willing to accept instruction and corrections, a study of both Wing Chun and Baguazhang CAN be quite interesting. WC's focus on linear attacks can be set off quite nicely by Bagua's mastery of the circular aspects of fighting. Of course, a lot depends on the quality of the instructors and their ability to work together humbly and respectfully.

[dedalus]

I think my last post got lost in the move :(

Where does the bagua influence in your wing chun come from CBA?

[RAF]

My original post was lost in the move.

There are some Chinese martial arts that incorporate the techniques of bagua into their system. One that I have had experience in is the 8 step praying mantis system. They incorporate both applications and postures from both bagua and xing yi. However, I don't believe they express the jings of the bagua system but simply express the jings of praying mantis. IMO, the foundational training in bagua permits the expression of the distinct jings in forms and fighting. Northern long fist is the foundation form for just about every Northern Chinese martial arts system but what differentiates them is unique foundational/basic training and delivery of the power/jing expression.

Another example is within our bagua system (Yin Fu/Gong Bao Tian). I know about 4 of the quasi-linear forms (non circular). They are based on the Luohan system but are distinctly bagua because of the training in bagua. In the second and third levels of the forms, we also punctuate it with various circle walking postures from the 64 internal palms/8 mother palms. I would not claim that I know or understand the luohan system but indeed you will find their postures in some of our bagua forms.

Fu style bagua also melds systems too.

I also have friends who learned forms in Shanghai which incorporate xing yi and bagua and the sun style also reflects a similiar melding.

I imagine that systems are developed by building on the knowledge, training and forms of previous systems. Those that are effective survive and those that aren't become extinct. Kind of a darwinian existence.

[CanadianBadAss]

Dedalus
A bunch of different masters from china and Hong Kong met up in Alberta, and sort of refined and perfected their arts by devolving a system witch combined their different styles (baugwa, wing chun, tai chi and hungar). I think the system is called tiger claw. Any way, my sifu was a student at their school until something happened and they all sort of broke up and left. There's still a tiger claw school in Alberta but I don't think it's the same as it used to be.

Count
We have inside and outside changes while we're circle walking, but I'm still pretty new, and my sifu only just started to teach us baug wa, he’s mostly been focusing on wing chun.

[Braden]

CBA - In it's formative years (first and second generation practitioners), there was prevalent cross-training in bagua. Lineages associated with Cheng Ting-Hua (including Zhang Zhao Dong's) typically show a strong Xingyiquan influence. Many examples of Yin Fu's bagua show clear influence of his earlier lohanquan training. More recently, however, bagua is more commonly taught as a single style, albeit one which emphasizes individual expression more than most. Indeed, it is a very rich and diverse art that has something for just about anyone, and certainly can occupy all the time you choose to give it.

There are a wide variety of training drills in baguazhang done with paired circlewalking, and of course also a wide variety done without. Basic paired circlewalking including only inside and outside changes it itself an extraordinarily valuable tool if done properly. Alot of what you need to learn in terms of your own internal structure, sticking and following energies, as well as timing and positioning, is contained in this practice. The directional changes can be executed as both attacks and reactions of a wide variety, including grabbing, grappling, and a variety of strikes; and including proper yielding/stealing energy. Gradually, as skill is achieved, more complexities can be added. Changes of pace, for their own sake, or as 'fades' can be added simply, as can 'jabs' with the lead palm. Next you can start encorporating the other 'palm shapes' of your style (and also combinations of two palms to create the 64 palms). Postures from the forms and techniques from other training practices can also be encorporated (eg. follow an inside change with 'embracing the moon to your chest' for a 'yanking someone into a forearm smash to the throat'). You can also include stepping through the circle to smash through your partner, or angle past them. This opens up a wider variety of postures you can include, as well as kicking and jamming techniques with the legs using kou bu and bai bu.

I think you'll find this practice in every school of baguazhang. And there are of course other paired circlewalking drills which can vary dramatically between schools. This is just the general one for practicing what you have learnt on the circle with a partner.

[Braden]

Oh, if you're interested you might want to check out Frank Granovski ( www.8palm.com ). I believe he teaches bagua in your area, and has some affiliation to the Tiger Claw school you mentioned; also he seems like a nice guy.

[CanadianBadAss]

thanks for the info braden, and about tiger claw, the stuff i posted wasn't actually told to me by my sifu, its just bits and pieces of stuff I've heard from senior students, so i could be wrong about some of the stuff i said.

[count]

Nice of Frank to put that cool plug for my teacher on his site.;) 8palm.com (http://www.8palm.com)
Good post Braden!

[CanadianBadAss]

thanks braden, that site had link to the tiger claw home page. ...A couple months ago i spent like 3 hours looking for their site or info if the school really excisted. And for a while I was starting to think my sifu just learned a bit of other styles and mixed them together, and i was learning from a mc dojo...