Punching with the lower knuckles...effective?

[straight blast]

I've just learned that the Wing Chun punches strike with the lower knuckles, as opposed to the more familiar boxing or Karate punches which hit with the first and second knuckles as they are bigger and harder. But the alignment of the bones in the wrist is stronger for the lower knuckles, minimizing impact damage (to you) and lessening the chance of the punch being turned at the wrist on impact.
But the little knuckles, man??? Ouch! I've only ever hit bags (or people ;) ) with my big knuckles, and admittedly my wrists are a little bit damaged but I've never broken a bone doing it. But smacking someone in the point of thejaw (accidentally) with the little knuckles has got to run the risk of breaking the small bones in the hand. Question time:
What do you think? Do the little knuckles get stronger (I assume so) the more you practise or do you get hurt no matter how long you go? Has this happened to anyone?
And which do you prefer?

"Forfeit the game
Before somebody else takes you out of the frame
And puts your name to shame
Cover up your face
You can't run the race
The pace is too fast,
You just won't last!"

[edward]

I've just learned that the Wing Chun punches strike with the lower knuckles, as opposed to the more familiar
boxing or Karate punches which hit with the first and second knuckles as they are bigger and harder. But the
alignment of the bones in the wrist is stronger for the lower knuckles, minimizing impact damage (to you) and
lessening the chance of the punch being turned at the wrist on impact.
But the little knuckles, man??? Ouch! I've only ever hit bags (or people ) with my big knuckles, and admittedly
my wrists are a little bit damaged but I've never broken a bone doing it. But smacking someone in the point of
thejaw (accidentally) with the little knuckles has got to run the risk of breaking the small bones in the hand.
Question time:
What do you think? Do the little knuckles get stronger (I assume so) the more you practise or do you get hurt no
matter how long you go? Has this happened to anyone?
And which do you prefer?

Actually that's not true, power is delivered through the knuckles but contact is made by the entire
fist. Imagine your fist as a triangle supported by both sides, if you hit flat with the entire fist then you'll
go straight through the target, but if you emphasis the knuckles then you'll have a break in the triangle
when you hit, and then you'll also break your hand at the same time. Notice in your comments about hitting with the
small bones, well its true you'll break it if you hit that way. It also take 1 year of wall bag training before
you can actually have a fist that can handle impact.

"Forfeit the game
Before somebody else takes you out of the frame
And puts your name to shame
Cover up your face
You can't run the race
The pace is too fast,
You just won't last!"

[black and blue]

"Power is delivered through the knuckles but contact is made by the entire
fist".

This point was made recently by my Sifu, in response to many books on Wing Chun talking about punches and knuckles.

The entire fist should hit!

*I just meet what I would be if I wasd a hot women attracted to me* - Unity (message on general Kung Fu forum)

*Fook the lot of 'em*

[Kiwiexpat]

SB, I'm currently reading a book by Jack Dempsey (heavyweight champ from the 50's) Championship Fighting & Explosive Punching for Self Defense & he argues for using the bottom knuckles (aim with the middle of the bottom 3 is his technique) & given that he's in the first generation of boxers post bare knuckle you'd have to consider he'd have a lot of coaches with recent experience in hitting hard heads with bare fists (the book was first printed in 1950). Try this one from his book as an experiment in fist structure for straight head strikes...stand arms length + 1 foot from a wall with arm outstreched at shoulder height towards the wall. Make a WC vertical fist & lean into the wall until your fist touches using the bottom 3 knuckles. The alignment should be pretty good btwn knucles to wrist to shoulder, Now tilt the fist up until you're resting on the first 2 knuckles, if I've explained it right you'll find that you don't get the same structure, so not only is it losing power through creating extra angles btwn knuckles & shoulder, but most of the impact will go on that 2nd knuckle instead of being shared by the bottom 3(I broke & bruised my 2nd knuckle regularly in my Jui Jitsu days many years ago so I'm **** glad of the WC punch).

Now here's my disclaimer...I'm not a sports physio, body mechanist, master of any style, etc, I've just been put onto this book by a sihing who has been training a similar length to me, doesn't have my boxing or JJ background, but at 70 kgs can hit a lot harder that I can at 100 kgs (as well as a lot faster). He credits some of his technique (not all, just some) with this book that our Sifu gave him to read. :cool: I've started playing with the techniques for straight punching & it seems to fit our WC style & I've noticed a good increase in my penetration when I punch.

Just a bit of additional info for you in your exploration of WC. Good luck & good training.

Cheers

Mark

[TjD]

in my school contact is made with the last few knuckles as a beginner, then only the pinky knuckle when more advanced (and the hand is a little tougher :) ) theres much more structure behind these and its better for your wrist

your strikes penetrate more when you hit with a smaller surface area
so hitting with a single knuckle will hurt more :)


peace
travis

Receive what comes, Escort what leaves, and if there is an opening, rush in

[edward]

boxing's boxing and wing chun's wing chun.... thus apples and oranges...

the mechanics are not the same and the understanding of structure by a boxer is totally different...

going into the detail more of the punch... the entire fist has to hit the target, but power is transferred through the knuckles. Imagine a nail placed standing up, without any support it will fall if something were to sit upon it. Now imagine the same nail surrounded by cotton, the cotton creates a solid base, soft enough to hold the nail.

Thus, when you punch, the fist is naturally relaxed and not tense. When you punch a target, the entire fist hits, acting as cotton. So its almost as if its being squeezed inward. When this occurs, the knuckles which are the lower 3 then end up penetrating through the to the target, thus being the nail. When you do it this way, imagine a triangle the flat side hitting through the target and supported on both sides.

hope this clears up more detail

[dzu]

Put aside Sifu sez for a moment and examine the anatomy of the body from shoulder to knuckle.
The radius and ulna are the two bones in the forearm between the elbow and wrist. The forearm and hand can rotate when the radius bone is 'twisted' inward relative to the ulna.

When the fist is vertical or near vertical, this 'twist' of the radius is minimal, and the radius and ulna run parallel to each other. This provides a better structure to handle force along the length of the bones in a straight line from wrist to elbow. The force travels in both directions: from the ground to the target and from the target back to the ground.

Proper positioning of the wrist allows the knuckles to be directly ahead of the radius and ulna so that there is direct bone support for the punch. THe second important element is the elbow, which must also be in line with the wrist so that the force is not choked off and can continue up the arm to the body. In addition, the elbow position determines the direction of the punch.

If the elbow is out (fai jang - flying elbow) then a linear force will not have direct bone support, the wrist will be out of alignment, and the body will not be linked. If the wrist is not held in the proper position, then the fist will be misaligned and the knuckles and radius/ulna will not be in a direct line with each other.

The scapula, rhomboids, and to some extent the serratus muscles act as a stabilizer so that the entire body is linked rather than just the shoulder. The legs and pelvis connect the torso and arms to the ground.

With a vertical or near vertical fist, the middle knuckle is in direct alignment with the radius and ulna. While the ring and pinky knuckles will make contact, the primary transfer of force is through the middle knuckle, which is the largest and most structurally sound. Some people use an upward tilt and claim to hit with the pinky knuckle, but IMHO they are mis-timing the strike. The tilt should occur after contact has already been made to break the opponent's structure.

People will claim all sorts of reasons, but you can't argue with human anatomy and physics. Apply some pressure to your fist (using your partner or a wall) and feel where the force is going. If it isn't going into the ground than you have a weakness somewhere in your structure.

Dzu

[rubthebuddha]

also when striking to hard targets, using the palm is much safer, if punching to someone's head, the knuckles are quite outclassed by the jaw or skull when it comes to size and structural strength. however, striking with the palm keeps the knuckles out of the way and minimizes the already low risk that a vertical fist offers.

by no means do i mean that you should always use the palm on when striking to the head. the nose is structurally week, and a couple knuckles into someone's schnock will ruin their chances at seeing clearly for a good half hour.

the principle i've been taught is hard to soft (fist to stomach/neck/etc.) and soft to hard (palm to chin/etc.) and mouth to ice cream.

-rtb

[Sam]

Fut Sao Wing Chun Kuen utilizes all knuckles and different angles for punches. As for the lower knuckles for punching are used to activate pressure points for meridian strikes. The angle and direction are key. Wing Chun is a finger and Dim Mak art. If you don't believe in that then keep punching away. www.buddhapalm.com (http://www.buddhapalm.com)

[wingchunalex]

to streghthen your fist try doing kunckle pushups with your fist vertical of course. that should be enough to condition your fist, it shouldnt cause arthritis like puching bricks and stuff like that (bad idea). i agree with the palm thing, especially if you do iron palm. but puching is best for a beginner so, what ever.

know yourself don't show yourself, think well of yorself don't tell of yourself. lao tzu

[CerberusXXL]

Actually, when you punch with the bottom three knuckles you can't be punching with the whole fist since the first knucle isn't align. Of course you use a bigger portion of the fist since you are using three knucles instead of just two like other arts such ask karate.

In addition, because I broke my pinky when I was 16 years old (23 now)I simply can't use my pinky. It doesn't matter how you look at it but the pinky is the weakest of all the knucles. Now, I'm not saying that the pinky shouldn't be use but you better condition your knucles if you plan on using them.

Anyway, in a real fight I will go against what my sifu taught me and I will use my first two knucles with my right hand. At any rate, wing chun has many deadly open hand techniques so it's all good in the end.

[popsider]

I'd be cautious about deliberately isolating the bottom knuckle - depending on the target and the amount of conditioning I'd done.

Generally I'm more concerned with the stability of the hand than the point of impact.

The said I do tend to angle the fist out slightly when punching upwards in order to spread the contact.

[rubthebuddha]

i don't think anyone is recommending focusing a single knuckle as a target point. i've always been taught to use the bottom three knuckles not as a row, but as a one side of a surface, with the first three knuckles going out those three fingers being the other side. that way, you're spreading the force throughout a nice, flat, safe surface.

the bottom knuckle comes into play when contact has been made and the arm is following through the body. when you hit and that flat surface is making contact, press that bottom knuckle out through the body. this helps add the wrist and a bit more of the tricep - kind of a bit more penetrating power.

again, that's what i'm taught. ideas?

-rtb

[dzu]

I have to disagree with the assertion that the entire fist be used to hit. You want your power to be concentrated in a smaller area not a larger one. As long as the structural support is there, there is no need to diffuse the force even further by using a larger contact area.

Hitting with the pinky is not recommended. Again, look at the structure of your fist in relation to your forearm and you will see that the middle and ring knuckles have direct bone support. The pinky is the ****hest away from the forearm and therefore has the least direct bone support. Without this support, the wrist and pinky knuckle take the brunt of the force upon impact (instead of the force travelling down the length of the forearm, through the elbow, and on to the body).

Obviously there are lots of other hand strikes you can use instead of the ji ng choi/jik chung choi. But for this discussion, we're talking about the meridian punch.

Dzu

[red5angel]

This is my 2 cents on why I think punching with the lower knuckles might be beter then the upper knuckles-
First of all, the structure with the arm and its bones are more consistant, providing strength and force behind the fist. The three lower knuckles sort of line up as well, dispersing the energy that is absorbed more equally through all three.
In any sort of confrontation, you may risk breaking something, that is just a fact of life, but conditioning can help.

"try not, do or do not. There is no try."

[rogue]

http://www.fitnessdirectory.net/directory/f/forearm.gif

It's not just the fingers being damaged that you need to worry about. Stability of the wrist can also be a factor.

The reason that the bottom of the hand is less stable is that's where it flexes from. Note the palmaris longus, the flexor carpi ulnaris and the flexor carpi radialis.

Flex your wrist in and watch how the hand turns. This also why when doing a wrist lock you push in on the bottom three knuckles as thats the way the wrist naturally bends.

While you can punch with the lower three you need to be aware of a few more things that can go wrong, like your wrist buckling in.

Signed,
Rogue, Soke and Senior Grandmaster of Southeast American Brazillian Bagua Combat Chi jitsu Kempo Karate Do and Choral Society.

The only tactical principle which is not subject to change; it is, “To use the means at hand to inflict the maximum amount of wounds, death, and destruction on the enemy in the minimum amount of time."

[fmann]

The Vertical Punch and the Use of the Wrist

The vertical punch is used not only in Isshinryu, but is also found in a much older Chinese martial art known as Wing Chun, founded circa 1776. It
has been reported that it was a favorite strike of Master Choki Motobu, one of Soke Shimabuku^╥s sensei. It was also favored by former heavyweight
boxing champion, Jack Demsey. A recently a biomechanical comparison of the vertical vs. the twist punch has recently been published, and it concluded that the vertical punch was superior to from a biomechanical perspective to the traditional twist punch. When throwing the twist punch, the hand ends up in a pronated position. A review of the existing scientific literature has shown that the pronated position doubles the force on the smaller of the two bones in the forearm, the ulna. The vertical punch keeps the wrist in a neutral position where the force is concentrated on the larger radius bone, which is more capable of handling such forces. Also, by keeping the wrist in a neutral position, the muscles that flex and extend the wrist are in a more favorable position to keep the wrist straight. The wrist is less likely to buckle on impact with a vertical punch than with the traditional twist punch. It was further concluded that it is a misconception that additional power is gained when a twist is added to a punch in the traditional fashion. Its contribution has been
shown to be minimal. For a more detailed discussion of the scientific literature, please review the article entitled Use of the Wrist in the Vertical Punch & The Twisting Straight Punch found in the Journal of the Martial Arts, Volume 9, Number 1- 2000.

[rogue]

In Isshinryu you hit with the top knuckles not the lower three. The weak wrist that I described above was shown to me by my Isshinryu sensei and also my JJ sensei as both styles use a verticle fist.

Signed,
Rogue, Soke and Senior Grandmaster of Southeast American Brazillian Bagua Combat Chi jitsu Kempo Karate Do and Choral Society.

The only tactical principle which is not subject to change; it is, “To use the means at hand to inflict the maximum amount of wounds, death, and destruction on the enemy in the minimum amount of time."

[CerberusXXL]

Rogue is right, Isshinryu uses the top two knucles like any other karate styles. My sifu was a second degree black belt before he discovered Wing Chun, so he knows that you hit with the top two knucles.

Anyway, yesterday was my last of karate. I doubt I will ever go back to karate because of wing chun.

Martial arts background:
Kyokushin: 3 months
Gojuryu: green belt or 15 months
Shotokan: Yellow belt or 4 months.

The nightmare is over...

[lungyuil]

Guys, is there any other reason for punching with the bottom 3 knuckles. Could it be the power concentration to possibly uproot your opponent?

i mean, i don't train in WC, but i think that the possibilities go deeper that trying to align the wrist making it stronger with the other knuckles.

Also, i am interested in the theory of using the lower knuckles for pressure point fighting. We use the pheonix fist as well as other things.

Naturally the theory of the lower knuckles works when there are many pressure points close together including meridians. Do you also
use it to slide along a meridian (so to speak) in order to ensure you atleast hit one or two points?

thanks

[WCFish]

Hi Lungyuil,
Apart from structural integrity, the vertical fist tends to keep the elbow from deviating from its intended trajectory. i.e. In karate the twist is supposed to come very late in the punch, but I have seen many people turn early in which case the elbow drifts out. This decreases the ability to transfer the full force of the blow.
However I do think the main reason for punching like this to maximise risk strength.

[rogue]

Some of you are confusing use of the verticle fist with the question about the lower knuckles. Two seperate subjects.

Signed,
Rogue, Soke and Senior Grandmaster of Southeast American Brazillian Bagua Combat Chi jitsu Kempo Karate Do and Choral Society.

The only tactical principle which is not subject to change; it is, “To use the means at hand to inflict the maximum amount of wounds, death, and destruction on the enemy in the minimum amount of time."

[lungyuil]

Wcfish
I agree with the concept of having the elbow facing the ground. when we punch our elbow always faces the ground and our fists are never horizontal. They are almost at a 45deg angle. The punch is more natural, the elbow never locks out.

This increases the power and helps the six powers (luk ging).

[popsider]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rogue:
It's not just the fingers being damaged that you need to worry about. Stability of the wrist can also be a factor.

The reason that the bottom of the hand is less stable is that's where it flexes from. Note the palmaris longus, the flexor carpi ulnaris and the flexor carpi radialis.

While you can punch with the lower three you need to be aware of a few more things that can go wrong, like your wrist buckling in.

." _[/quote]


It doesn't follow that because the wrist flexes at the bottom that punching with the bottom knuckles is less stable.

The important thing is the alignment of the arm/wrist/hand. In most instances using a vertical fist requires you to punch with the bottom 3 if you want to keep correct alignment.

If you are impacting with the top 2 then you are punching with a bent wrist.

[rogue]

P,
The instability is in the hand flexing in, not up or down.

Signed,
Rogue, Soke and Senior Grandmaster of Southeast American Brazillian Bagua Combat Chi jitsu Kempo Karate Do and Choral Society.

The only tactical principle which is not subject to change; it is, “To use the means at hand to inflict the maximum amount of wounds, death, and destruction on the enemy in the minimum amount of time."

[popsider]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rogue:
P,
The instability is in the hand flexing in, not up or down.
_Signed,
" _[/quote]

Whatever - I don't think you establish this is the case - you make a claim which your reasoning does not support.

I can see that if you punch with the top two that you are going to risk the fist flexing downwards - especially if you are hitting with a slightly upwards trajectory - because the wrist is going to have to be bent on impact.

[WCFish]

I think Rogue should define "flex" for us, how about it Rogue. Please include, definitions of extension, abduction, adduction, supination and pronation......of the rist of course.
Thanks.

[dzu]

The wrist will turn if a) you flex and cause it to turn or b) the force from impact is not transmitted directly and lineaerly to the forearm.

The wrist has range of motion in many directions and each direction is a possible danger when punching. If alignment is correct then none of the force is against the wrist and its musculature. Wrist stability is NOT dependent upon fist orientation. The horizontal fist is just as vulnerable to flexion in the up and down direction as the vertical fist is in the in and out direction.

Horizontal fist/first 2 knuckles are and vertical fist/bottom 3 knuckles are used with different mechanics to accomplish different things. Both work within the framework that they were designed for. You cannot simply substitute one for the other arbitrarily without understanding everything else in the martial art system.

Dzu

[rogue]

'I think Rogue should define "flex" for us, how about it Rogue. Please include, definitions of extension, abduction, adduction, supination and pronation......of the rist of course.
Thanks.'

Once you master small words, then we can move onto the bigger ones. :D

Signed,
Rogue, Soke and Senior Grandmaster of Southeast American Brazillian Bagua Combat Chi jitsu Kempo Karate Do and Choral Society.

The only tactical principle which is not subject to change; it is, “To use the means at hand to inflict the maximum amount of wounds, death, and destruction on the enemy in the minimum amount of time."

[WCFish]

Typoes aside, how about defining the above mentioned for us. :p :p