Weaknesses of Wing Chun

[fgxpanzerz]

>>>>Wing Chun, with its leaning back tendency, is bad. You are asking to break, with breaking points at the waist and knees. However, that is for you to decide yourself.<<<<<<

Someone posted this on another website. It isnt the whole post but the important part. I also read a book called "Martial Musings" by Robert W. Smith who also bad mouthed Wing Chun. In his book, he said that Wing Chun is a minor boxing style that uses too much hands, crumbles when against kicks, and something else I cant remember.

Is any of this true? Does anyone who studies Wing Chun right now see any weaknesses in the system that could be exploited by other styles?

[old jong]

Some lean back, some have no structure ,not everybody does that but it is enough to give a false impression to "Martial arts connaisseurs" out there!
:rolleyes:

Les paroles s'envolent.
Les écrits restent!...

[Martial Joe]

The only weakness I see in wing chun is ground fighting...

Wing Chun is a stand up art...

What that guy said is BS...

You should use your feet just as much as your hands...

http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/lolup.gif IXIJoe KaveyIXIhttp://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/lolup.gif
I am Sharky's main man...

[straight blast]

I think it's a crock of s**t. The little contact I've had with WC practitioners shows me that the stance does not "lean back", but is instead an upright stance, as opposed to the hunched forward stance of a boxer for example. And as for the kicks & crumbling thing...I suppose everyone is allowed an opinion.

Unfortunately the vast majority of opinions are uninformed.

I can assure you that the people I trained with would have had no difficulty with the Thai roundkick, which IMO and in my experience is the most powerful kick I've ever been on the receiving end of. Good for a laugh I suppose.

"Forfeit the game
Before somebody else takes you out of the frame
And puts your name to shame
Cover up your face
You can't run the race
The pace is too fast,
You just won't last!"

[wingchunalex]

kicks are so easy to stop, hell, you just raise a knee or stay on center. wow, the only experiece that guy must have had with wing chun must have been a very bad one. and other arts have a little leaned back posture, akido for example, and some samari sword styles.oh, and some crain systems. its so you carry your full weight with you and move your center of gravity. the lean really isn't a lean, cause your not offbalance, its more like your body is arched back so that force can be rooted into the ground, like when you puch on a bambo trunk, it arches back.

know yourself don't show yourself, think well of yorself don't tell of yourself. lao tzu

[Dave Farmer]

The weaknesses of Wing Chun?

Lack of practice,lack of study,lack of understanding and lack of experience.

Mr Smith is among a large 'minority' who unfortunately are too common in our system.

Regards

Dave F

'wing chun men do it with sticky hands'

[straight blast]

Well said Woodenma69...those are the fundamental weaknesses of any Martial Art. Spot on.

"Forfeit the game
Before somebody else takes you out of the frame
And puts your name to shame
Cover up your face
You can't run the race
The pace is too fast,
You just won't last!"

[rogue]

"kicks are so easy to stop, hell, you just raise a knee or stay on center."

I think WC is cool, but sometimes you guys are just so funny. :)

Signed,
Rogue, Soke and Senior Grandmaster of Southeast American Brazillian Bagua Combat Chi jitsu Kempo Karate Do and Choral Society.

The only tactical principle which is not subject to change; it is, “To use the means at hand to inflict the maximum amount of wounds, death, and destruction on the enemy in the minimum amount of time."

[Kristoffer]

Isn't it kinda naive to just say that u should use your kicks just as much as your punching when WC hardly train kicking? + I've heard that WC never kicks over the waist, this is what i have been told to do aswell,, in a real life fight, but if u dont TRAIN for it, then how can u defend yourself against it? What if a bad-ass Muay Thai fighter attacked u with a high kick? U would die.
I find WC practioners extremly naive.. But I like your art.

Hmm, oh and I dont think I've ever heard of throwing in WC? This is a BIG flaw to any martial art

~K~
"maybe not in combat.. but think of the chicks man, the chicks!" -- someone on the subject of back-flips in combat --

[Dave Farmer]

You've heard Wing Chun doesn't kick much,has No Throws, death by high kicks?

I think that is a little naive. ;)

No we don't kick high but I personally spar regularly with both TKD and Thai players, without dying :D

No we don't have throws as in the classical Judo or Jiu Jutsu sense but we do have trips and sweeps, but prefer to knock down rather than throw.

btw in a real situation you have to wait for most TKD and Thai boxers to take their shoes off before they kick you. (this usually happens just before they kill you with a head kick as you are bowing!) ;)

Generalising about any style is Naive.
Men created the styles, the styles didn't create the men.

Regards

Dave F

'wing chun men do it with sticky hands'

[yuanfen]

Strange comments by those who dont know the art.
Of course one can pick poor practitioners of any art and mistake their actions for the art.
1. On Smith...his book with Draeger on Asian Fighting Arts was a superb intro to Asian arts when people in the west didnt know too much about them.And Smith as a young man did both grappling and judo and has good insights into those areas. If
he ever finishes his big work on wrestling it should be a contribution. But because of his early success he pontificates on all martial arts.
Hence his reach exceeds his grasp. His early work
was primarily based on his Taiwanese experience.
He knows zilch about wing chun, many southern arts or even about mainland MA. His taichi is Chen Mang Chin taichi. he knows nothing about Chen Style.
2. WC is sometimes criticized on the basis of take your pick- lack of groundwork, defenses against kickers, lack of throwing or joint locks.
Based on ignorance of the depth of wc. When you learn wc well (it does take time)- one sees that higher than striking,
kicking, throwing and locking is controlling and destroying the opponent- the rest (throwing, grappling, locking etc) are means to the end.
This is not stuff of abstract debates- but good teaching, good learning and practice of wing chun. :rolleyes:

[straight blast]

Wing Chun hardly trains kicking? News to me.
You haven't seen much WC, have you? A head high kick is slower and easier to block than a head high punch. In two and a half years of Muay Thai I never once got kicked in the head (and not through my opponent's lack of trying) because it's dead easy to defend against, but I sure as hell wore plenty in the thighs.
And the throwing thing?
Sigh.
And you accuse us of being naive... ;)

"Forfeit the game
Before somebody else takes you out of the frame
And puts your name to shame
Cover up your face
You can't run the race
The pace is too fast,
You just won't last!"

[rogue]

I don't believe that WC has a weakness in technique (even against kicks), but to me it seems many WC students believe that knowing the concepts of WC are the same as knowing how to apply those same concepts in real life. I chalk this up to inexperience and not the style.

Signed,
Rogue, Soke and Senior Grandmaster of Southeast American Brazillian Bagua Combat Chi jitsu Kempo Karate Do and Choral Society.

The only tactical principle which is not subject to change; it is, “To use the means at hand to inflict the maximum amount of wounds, death, and destruction on the enemy in the minimum amount of time."

[Martial Joe]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Isn't it kinda naive to just say that u should use your kicks just as much as your punching when WC hardly train kicking? [/quote]


Not every wing chun guy trains the same...
Yip Man was known for his kicks the most.I have heard that his kicks were better then his hands, correct me if I am wrong.

Kick something 5000 times a day correctly and you will have extremely strong and good kicks.

http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/lolup.gif IXIJoe KaveyIXIhttp://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/lolup.gif
I am Sharky's main man...

[anerlich]

Kristoffer,

You ought to check out Rick Spain before you say WC guys can't kick and don't train for it. He IMHO is a more accomplished kicker than 99% of the TKD and karate guys on the planet. And I'm sure he's not the only WC guy who is handy with his feet (is that a bad pun or what?)

If there is a wweakness with WC, it's complacency. Students are told (by some) that the WC way is the fastest, purest most economical and everything else is inferior. There's no point learning a hook punch or a roundhouse kick, as these are inferior techniques, and so students never learn how a GOOD hook or RH kick is thrown and so never have a classmate throw such a technique at them and thus never learn how to defend against a GOOD one. Then they go out and wonder why they cop the short hook or the shin kick to the head. Or the double leg takedown, hip throw, etc......

There are throws in Wing Chun - osotogari is right there in the dummy sets. Plenty more too for those prepared to *look*.

As the ancient, Bob Dylan, said, don't criticise what you can't understand.

[bao]

Wing chun is not the best system of fighting and with anything there are always some drawsbacks, but to say that wing chun doesn't have structural support in the defense against a kick is not fair. In the school that I studied wing chun, my teacher always guides me in the idea of structure in defense and would constantly drilled the idea in my head when it came down time to practice techniques. Even more when I am not getting the technique down. =)

Futhermore, I would have to say that many martial arts systems have good techniques against kicks even grapplers, too. It is all about your approach to fighting I believe.

From my experience so far, there are wing chun principles and techniques against kicks which I believe are effective but is it the best way? Well, you can only judge a technique when you work it out and studied its underlining principle. I think my techniques works
and it works well for me. But I do not assume it is the best in world.

All in all, to search for the perfect technique against an attack for me is like chasing the fountain of youth. It doesn't exist as I know it but it is nice to think that it does exist some where.

Bao

[Wingman]

All martial arts have its own strengths and weaknesses. Wing chun is no exception. Some MA excel in grappling, others in kicking, others in punching, etc. Wing chun's strength is in trapping and striking. What is important is you play your own game. Don't grapple with a grappler; he will probably out-grapple you. Don't kick with a kicker; he might out-kick you. Instead, do what wing chun does best. He who is able to play his own game will most likely win.

[rubthebuddha]

has anyone who has offered criticism here of wing chun (any spelling) ever actually gotten into it's depth?

every single person i've read criticism from has either offered no experience (usually some ******* who says one enlightening statement like "ur style is crap against roundkicks") or offered their tremendous experience ("what i've learned so far is that ..."). does anyone here who wants to offer criticism of wing chun ever actually learned much in it? if so, i'd love to hear what you have to say. if you've learned a lot and still find faults with it, then you can offer something useful. but anyone else who thinks that reading something in a magazine bad about wc or heard their sifu say "wc is no good" yet gave no reason nor had any experience himself - do you actually think that your opinions on something you don't know are hold all that much water? by the same token, i'll be ****ed if my opinions on grappling mean right now.

instead of pretending to know what you're talking about on a style you've barely read about, offer insight into what you do know about. be it mantis or hung gar or long fist, or even tkd (i'd like to share tkd stories if anyone wants to reminisce with me over a margarita - your first tourney, your first match fighting on a pulled groin :D ). that's why we're here - to share what we know. we're here to grow and learn from each other (hopefully) - it's what martial artists do.

i've gained a great deal of insight from a lot of you, and i **** well hope you guys don't stop here.

-rtb

[rubthebuddha]

they even were smart enough to censor jer_k_off.

curses! foiled again!

-rtb

[Nichiren]

What the f***! Of course we kick a lot! Every time someone tries to kick me I kick him in the nuts or on a knee. I train this way with my SiFu and it has become a reflex.

I prefer to use my fists and elbows because of the distance but I have no problems kicking...

[rubthebuddha]

someone begins lifting that leg, throw a good front kick right in the jimmy or knee and make 'em think twice about lifting that leg in aggression again.

-rtb

[fa_jing]

I understand there is a throw in the Biu Gee set, but I don't know what it is. I do know that we train a throw after a kick is grabbed, plus we train taking down the opponent with limb manipulation.
-FJ

[rogue]

Well I'll admit that Ving Tsun guys give me trouble when trying to kick them. They seem to have that part of fighting down pretty good.

Signed,
Rogue, Soke and Senior Grandmaster of Southeast American Brazillian Bagua Combat Chi jitsu Kempo Karate Do and Choral Society.

The only tactical principle which is not subject to change; it is, “To use the means at hand to inflict the maximum amount of wounds, death, and destruction on the enemy in the minimum amount of time."

[anerlich]

The TWC Bil Jee movements can be applied to give the following throws:

Major/minor outer reapings in the opening section

a dropping shoulder throw from the section where you drop to the one knee ("hood ornament") stance - you could almost extrapolate this into a low fireman's carry takedown as well, and perhaps an arm drag too

the huen saos in the kan sao section can be applied as a neck manipulation, spin to a takedown from behind

minor inner/outer reapings from the Grun/Quan Sao section

takedown against a caught kick in the fut sao section

leg grab and take down recovery from a stalled hip or shoulder throw in the final section

and that's just off the top of my head. All of these movements have striking applications as well, but as I have been taught the form is meant to teach effective movement patterns with multiple applications, not single "he does A so I do B" defensive techniques.

This is not to say TWC's Bil Jee has stuff the others don't, just that it's the only Bil Jee I know.