For the people in JKD cross training with something else...

[Apprentice]

I was recently looking at a site talking about the strategy and a whole bunch of other stuff(i was very impressed/interested)...

But i was wondering, do any of you take another art,(such as kickboxing or even regular boxing, maybe even a gung fu)and if so, does your teacher allow you to use the "JKD Stance" or JKD phillosophys/strategys while sparring? Like, instead of doing 1 of that arts stances/attacks, use JKD's methods?

"True victory is giving all of yourself without regret"-Ryu

"Your best move is the move you regret not doing"-Fei Long

"Are you prepared to fight today? Someone else is as we speak"-Apprentice

[Mutant]

You won't fully understand or appreciate a style, be it boxing, kickboxing or traditional Shaolin if you don't completely commit to it and learn and practice all the basics including stance work. Its usually done for a reason, exept in some lame cases at bad schools. You might learn something about stance or root that you wouldnt otherwise. And if you don't no traditional sifu will teach you the most important parts of a style, although most will gladly take your money, you will always be an outsider.
In the end, whats useful (which isnt always immediatly apperent) will replace what is not, or vice-versa, so you don't really have to worry about losing good stuff you may have learned, its all more like JKD than you might think after awhile. And I don't know what 'Matrix Fighting' is but there is lots of good useful stuff out there to learn, don't be resistent to learning new footwork just cause you learned 'the best stuff in the whole world', you might find something even better. I use all kinds of different footwork form mutated from different styles into what plain and simple works for me. When you go to spar or fight, it will be you fighting, not the style, and you will use and keep what works best for you (i'm not talking bad habits though, beware of those). And most stances arent what they seem, they are often taken at face value and applications and use misunderstood, they are not all low, slow and akward when applied. Give the traditional training a shot and practice your JKD techniques on your own. Besides, its more the experience, evolution, journey, and philosophy of JKD then staying true to certain footwork you may have learned, which would just be like making it a style not to be mutated into your own personal experience and technique.

-MutantWarrior

"Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checked by failures...than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."
-Theodore Roosevelt

[This message was edited by MutantWarrior on 12-03-01 at 11:11 PM.]

[Apprentice]

I was thinking bout this because i was sorta thinking about joining maybe kickboxing(since its the only thing in my area), but i noticed that they "Bounce just to bounce, and move just to move"...which has never made sense to me, your not balanced when your doing that stuff, if your planted in a stance where your ready to fire off, your attacks will be much more successful, and if your relaxed/not moving, your reflexes are better as well, thats why i was wondering if i'd be able to use a different stance in a fight and not move around/bounce for no reason constantly, i think they do that so they are a harder target, but i think a harder target is one that you can't hit when its not moving because your punches get stopped short or just miss, or your jes plain out getting attacked/dominated...thanx for your reply though, anyone got anything else? What do you think of what i said? (i keep an open mind, keep in mind)

And Matrix fighting, it's kinda my own style i develop myself, i study(extremly hard) all types of styles/trainings/strategys then incorporate them into my own fighting style, i think as of now, it has grown to be very effective, but im still gonna learn a REAL art so to speak, and then incorporate that stuff into my stuff accordingly :) then i will know what works for ME, which is most importatn in my eyes

[Mutant]

well if youre talking about a 'bouncy' kick-boxing school, then in my opinion, don't bounce like them, youre right, be more fluid and rooted. sorry 4 the trad-school sermon :-) if that doesnt really apply to you right now, but keep in mind that there is some good stuff there. look at what some of the good san shou fighters are doing for footwork, i believe thats much better than typical kickboxer footwork, more realistic too, less sport.
kool name by the way 'matrix fighting'....although people are bound to give you sh!t about the movie, fighting like keanu reeves and stuff :p
good luck!!!:D

[Apprentice]

Long Story: You may find it funny as i do....

I came up with that name with my friend(WE came up with it)...reason being, when we first even started CONSIDERING training, out of nowhere, we started figthing in slow motion and dodging punches like keanu reeves did on the matrix(we were high, which i no longer do since i started training seriously)...then it progressed into more realistic blocks and counters slowly(still in slow motion, it was just funny as hell, u know, bein high)...then we performed it infront of a girl(she was high too)...man, she got a kick out of it, cuz we started off slow(she didn't even know we were goin slow, it's really strange to watch, i think almost anyone would like it, several people have)...but we started to pick it up while she was watching to the point where we were going all out, but the main focus was putting on a cool show, so we started leaping over couches and getting out of the way of kicks JUST in time,(she was lovin it) and then we would throw in little factors where we would pick up a plastic TOPS bag or something, and throw it up in the air, and fight as it fell, and we wouldn't let it touch the ground(that was the objective)...then we just started doing that all the time, more frequent then ever, and then i found out my friend REALLY trained with someone(a friend of mine, and i did not know about this)...and so all 3 of us started training together, 1 would watch 2 others fight, and tell the two their mistakes and accomplishments...and then i got even more serious and am looking to join a school to learn a real art and incorporate even more things into my training(i do alot more than just spar n fu(k around)...but anyway, that's how it started, hope it was interesting to read as interesting as it was for me to experience it, hmm, if i become a teacher, and someone asks me how i got started training, think i should tell em that? :cool:

[mun hung]

What part of New York do you live in?

[Mutant]

Bahahaha good story Apprentice!!!! :D
ya gotta tell THAT story! (well, maybe not to everybody)
I've had some fun times training high before too, the analytical mind is an amazing thing...but yeah, you can't train too hard like that and you need SERIUS lungs to kickbox, etc, not a time for slackin off.
L8r

[Apprentice]

for who asked...

[shaolinboxer]

NIAGRA FALLS!!!!

Sloooooooowly I turned, step by step, inch by inch....

[Mutant]

RE: NIAGRA FALLS!!!!
Sloooooooowly I turned, step by step, inch by inch....

Curley was using very powerful martial technique 4 sure.
That was one of my favorite 3-Stooges episodes!!!

or did i get that all screwed up? i havent seen that episode in years..

[shaolinboxer]

Moe and Larry whoop Curly's butt in that one :). One of my faves too!

[reemul]

Your defeating the purpose of learning something new when you go to a new school and practice what you learned elseware.

I'm not saying you can't mix stuff together just that if you're gonna take up a new system, perhaps you should learn it before modifying it with attributes of another system.

I have a friend who is a professional boxer and JKD instructor and she is also interrested in coming to our school, which is classical Northern Shaolin Tiger.

[apoweyn]

"if your relaxed/not moving, your reflexes are better as well"

i doubt that, to be honest.

think about being on defense for a minute:

1) what's a harder target for your opponent to hit? a moving one, probably. it's a proactive form of defense. you're not defending specific shots. you're making it overall more difficult to hit you.

2) objects in motion tend to stay in motion; objects at rest tend to stay at rest. i'm no physics student, believe me. but it makes sense to me that if i'm already moving, then a redirection of that movement comes more easily than initiating movement from stillness.

just some thoughts.


stuart b.

[Apprentice]

To: Forgot who, the one who said Moving around is better than being still, and disagreed with what i said, heres an explination of what i meant...

well, the most important thing about that is being relaxed(i'll get to the stillness after)...try this

1)Tense all of your muscles and tell someone(a relative perhaps) to strike you...could u block it in time?

2)Relax and have the strike you(still in a stance) could u block it this time? If you blocked them both times, which felt faster? more instinctively?


now about the movment...

I didn't mean actually not moving at all, while relaxed so your completely dead weight....i mean, all of your movements should be purposeful, to get in better position for attack, advance, retreat, sidestep(or circle)...but just dancing around in the ring(or street) seems pretty pointless....if you are still, and you see an opening, and rush in(while defending of course), that is proper movement...or if your opponent has his front guarded well, and in 2 movements, you step to the side, and advance into an attack at an angle, that is proper movement...by being still/relaxed i meant until their is an opening, or until you are creating an opening(moving to side, trapping, shooting regardless of style)......

You said A moving target is harder to hit, and u can redirect attacks better....i'd say whats harder to hit than a MOVING target, is an ATTACKING target, it's harder to counter attack when your getting hit and are on the defensive, and if your opponent is "Purposefully Moving" and sidesteps(as well as blocks) to get into better position and immediatly attacks, you are gonna have much more difficulty defeating them as opposed to someone who is bouncing just to bounce, and moving just to move, first of all, they aren't attacking, and second, they are waisting energy....ya see what i mean now? And if you take JKD, i'd jes like to inform you that that is where i got the knowledge from(not taking it, but reading it's strategy/tactics)...

Do you disagree?

[apoweyn]

apprentice,

do i disagree? hmm... not really, no. i think we might be experiencing one of the limitations of internet conversation. we may be thinking of very similar things in slightly different terms, so disagreeing when we actually agree.

i don't know. but here goes:

first of all, i agree wholeheartedly with you that relaxed is better than not. no question. it's the movement thing where we disagree.

people 'bounce' to maintain a dynamic state in their sparring. their movements overall are faster because they're already in motion. like i said, objects at rest tend to stay at rest.

in all probability, there are people who move more than they should or need to in sparring. but i don't think stillness is the answer. a low level of constant movement, i think, is. moving the head from side to side, up and down. shuffling the feet around slightly. that sort of thing.

think about this: you're standing still. presumably from a stable base (a stance of some sort). to then close distance with your opponent, you're going to have to initiate movement. perhaps rise up a little. there will be telltale signs as you begin to move. and a savvy opponent might see them and capitalize on them.

alternatively, you're moving. not jumping like a deranged lunatic. but shuffling, bobbing, etc. like a boxer. your opponent is used to seeing you move. you've been doing it all along. but how long do you think it'll take, when you make your offensive move, for your opponent to realize that you aren't just shuffling anymore. you're closing the distance.

my point is that constant motion is not the same as wasted motion. yes, it's possible to exaggerate this idea to the point that you're wasting a lot of energy. but there is a point to it. a valid and workable point.

am i a jkd practitioner? sort of. my teacher is from the inosanto lineage. he doesn't use the term jkd very often, but essentially, that's his background, yes.

as for you getting your ideas from the text, i'm sure you did. but the philosophy of jkd (as of many other things) is complex and sometimes contradictory. more to the point, it can support a lot of different viewpoints. for example, the tao of jeet kune do makes various references to a dynamic fighting stance, using bobbing, slipping, and shuffling.

anyway, ultimately i agree with you. energy shouldn't be wasted. but there's purposeful motion and purposeless. purposeful motion isn't always obvious. indeed, it shouldn't be. not to the opponent, in any event.


stuart b.

[Apprentice]

Im an honest type of guy, i'll tell you i do agree with what i said, but i also have learned, the dynamic stance(useful one) is a good idea, to be at a neutral stance and look for openings n what not...

But its my preference to just attack smart(first, consistantly, and defensively) by defensively i mean watching your oponnents weapons(that you dont have trapped, which in some cases is all of them)

However, there is gonna be a time where you may need to reconsider your strategy, and maybe get into a better position, the bobbing, and shuffling thing is a good thing to do i'd say, it may get em scared at first, and ocne they realize your just bobbing, you can attack, and they will take longer to react to see if something is actually comign at em or ur jes shuffling...good advice, thanx...you definantly helped me there

[PaleDragon]

if you need to move in the opposite direction that your energy is already moving in....is it still faster to be moving?
hehe you guys are pretty much agreeing...apprentice is just alittle more concerned with it being purposeful movement.

[myosimka]

It's not bouncing just to bounce. It conceals telegraphing. Think of it as tons of fake retreats and advances. If you have a static position, as soon as you move your opponent knows it. If you are constantly moving, they stop flinching in response to your movements which buys you a split second in reaction time.

[Mutant]

when i mentioned not to 'bounce' earlier in this thread i was picturing some real bouncy folks i've known who seem to bounce just to bounce, like tigger. i meant constant movement and transition, which sometimes is a bounce, or a shift or an abrupt transition, changing the speed and the tempo, but not bouncing up and down like a basketball and trying to sneak in strikes in between bounces. if you need to bounce to conceal telegraphing, then you should work on launcing strikes w/ less telegraph, not more bounce to conceal telegraphed or sloppy techniques. but yes, if your caught sleeping, static, flat-footed, double-weighted, thats bad for ring fighting and sparring...self defence i think can be different where you can surprise an adversary and conceal your overall intentions.
just my $.02

[apoweyn]

myosimka,

exactly. cheers. :)


pale dragon,

if your movements are noncommittal, then yes. already being in motion will help your movement, even in another direction. obviously, if you're running forward, then retreating is going to be problematic. but that isn't what we're talking about. a light bounce is never going to be the wrong direction though, because the opposite of it is... directly into the ground.

think about sprinting for a moment. do you think you'd have better time on a sprint if you started from a still position or if you started from a slow jog? i'm not sure myself, but my feeling is that you'd be faster off of the jog. attacking would be the same thing.

does that make sense? (not being sarcastic. just not sure how good an explanation that was.)


apprentice,

think of it as another mechanism for controlling the fight. if you're still and you attack, your opponent may well sense that transition from stillness to motion. if he's not currently attacking you, then your transition can really only mean one thing. you're attacking him. (why would you be retreating when he's not attacking?)

so all he has to do is sense motion on your part, and he goes on the defensive. he's prepared.

in contrast, if you're constantly moving, the opponent is getting more forms of input. you're not giving him extra information to work with. you've gone from motion to... motion... and then you're right there.

by constantly keeping your opponent guessing, readjusting, concentrating on constantly changing conditions, you keep him mentally, perceptually, and physically on edge. he can't prepare because he's always getting used to a new set of conditions. you shuffle closer, he has to prepare for hands or retreat. you shuffle away, he expects kicking or has to follow. you drop down, he has to relocate his target or expect a shot to the gut. you come up, again his target's moved. perhaps he's expecting a head shot from you now.

a constant, <i>but low-level</i>, type of motion gives you a way of dictating the rhythm, intensity, range, techniques, etc. of the fight without expending a lot of energy. from stillness, you only dictate the conditions of the fight when you're throwing fully committed techniques. in a very real way, that's <i>less</i> economical than the former.

just more thoughts. hope they help.


stuart b.

[apoweyn]

one more thing. i agree that some techniques and tactics are better served by having a stronger, more solid base. stillness, in some sense.

but my feeling is still that it's easier to <i>drop</i> down into a solid base from an easy bounce than it is to <i>rise</i> out of a solid base to move around. you've got gravity working on your side that way. less telegraphing.


stuart b.

[apoweyn]

[bump]

[KungFuGuy!]

A martial art originated by a couple of stoned teenagers trying to impress a girl... I can really see the potential! :D

[apoweyn]

well, it's an odd start. but i'm not going to discount it.


stuart b.

[Apprentice]

LOL, i guess i deserved that...

but in actually, me n my friend have fought like that before, and infront of other people, its jes that day stands out (it was too funny :D ) We've fought infront of several people, everyone laughed very hard...and a few people said their faces were hurting(on different occasions) but yea, dat'd be kinda funny to say that in an interview...or better yet, have a scroll, telling the story of how it was formed, LOL....thanx for the replies everyone, anyone got more opinions?

[Ford Prefect]

When I was boxing, I learned to bounce to merely keep on my toes. You are quicker and more agile when on your toes. If you look at sprinters or the fastest, most agile animals out there, then you'll notice they all run on their toes. It's easier to sink down to put your legs into a punch, then it is to escape from a flurry when being completely static and flat-footed. You still lose some power when on your toes, but you can still deliver more than enough to put people out of commission. Plus sticking and moving is an important concept in boxing. The second you stand still is the second you get hit.

I realize this is just the boxers way, and other methods will indeed work. My advice to you is to fully emerse yourself in any style you are going to x-train in. Use all the methods; bouncing and all. Only after you have made it your own will you see it's value or lack thereof. Never stop learning.

[apoweyn]

i can't really offer any better advice than that.

well said, ford.


stuart b.

[Tang]

Does anybody here cross train JKD with Tai Chi Chuan?

[Apprentice]

yea, dat sounds good, i jes remembered a saying, that if i had heard before hand, i probably wouldn't have posted this, however i DID learn, definantly, im glad i did post it, but the sayin is...

"in order to fill your cup, you must first empty it"...which is also said as "In order to be taught, u must un-learn everything you know"....makes perfect sense to me now

[Sensei Kunz]

In order to truly understand Jeet Kune Do, you must have a strong foundation in some art form. This is stated by Bruce Lee, however, if you find an instructor in Jeet Kune Do who can show you your path and give the right direction, then you may learn from the beginning. It is imperative that you learn along the way the Jeet Kune Do concepts and philophies to your self-expression.

[Bearwolf]

my oppinion is that bouncing is extremely importartant, as poeple here have said they make the opponent less aware of your movements and such, i personally doesnt bounce around so much due to the fact that im a bit overweigh ;), but, by just keeping my heels of the floor and shifting weight between my legs i stay fast and agile, so when i meet someone in a competition for example they dont see me as a fast moving opponent, but after a few surprising kicks to the head they learn ;)
and when im pushed back so i have to plant my heels i usually try to give a fast pushing kick to their thighs or stomach that will give me time to reposition.
though if you are a light person i imagine "stance fighting" could be usefull in some occasions, but from my experience i'd say its always best to keep bouncing just to have alert legs

/björn

[Ryu]

"bouncing for the sake of bouncing"

How do you know they are bouncing for the "sake" of bouncing? Have you fought them? Have you stepped in the ring with them? Making a statement like that is extremely big, and is usually only determined by someone with lots of experience in that art and others. How could you know for sure if you have no formal training in any martial art?

I'm not trying to be mean or anything...but martial arts and fighting are pretty serious so you NEED some kind of foundation before you can "create your own system"
Hell Bruce had a foundation before he moved from it. I practice my own "way" of fighting too, but I only do that from years of grappling experience, JKD experience, etc.

Simply creating moves with your friend (who also has no martial arts experience) is not a martial art. I'm not trying to knock what you're doing. Don't get me wrong. I think people should express themselves in MA....but you can't make up something when you have no formal experience and call it legit. That's just my opinion.
Train, research, study what you want to study, and put it into practice, but GET FORMAL training of some kind. Your posts, however passionate about MA, leave me thinking you don't have the experience to be "creating" anything.
Please don't take offense. All that means is that foundation is important.

As far as the getting high stuff......well that's a whole other topic :rolleyes: It's good that you at least aren't into it anymore.

Ryu