practical drills

[mun hung]

When you do drills in class, is there any hard contact? I mean real punches and kicks.

Also, I've watched some drills on various WC videos and noticed that most of the time punches don't even reach. Is this realistic training?

[rubthebuddha]

nowhere near realistic. in real-time, you do what you practice. if you you practice hitting empty air, guess what you're going to hit in a fight? if you practice hitting people, guess what you're going to do in a fight.

the worst thing i've ever seen? people that practice hard, but aim their strikes just to the side of their attackers head.

i think it's best to practice with contact people are comfy with and make sure you make that contact and lock your elbow out/follow.

[Abstract]

hey man you already know how I feel about this, we've discussed this many times!:D

hey is sifu gonna have those workshops? gimme a call/email man!
;)

[red5angel]

It sounds to me like these punches may be more for control then actual realistic fighting. I believe it is still a good idea to mix that sort of drill into training but at the same time you have to feel your hits, either on a sparring partner or a bag of some sort.

rubthebuddha, do you lock your elbow when you punch? The reason I ask is because in my training, a locked elbow is something that I look for in wing chun, if it is locked, the easier it is to hyperextend it and snap the joint.

red5angel

[yuanfen]

Depends on what the purpose of the drill is. Some are for timing.
Thus in the lop sao practice you are already supposed to be deflected before the punch reaches the person.
In other drills whre you test whether you are getting through,
control is the key. If you can reach a person with control and only a little power you can turn the power on when you really need it
provide you have practised again and again. You dont have to dop the bomb every time in every test to know what is there..

[rubthebuddha]

yes, we do lock the elbow out, but only at one very important time: when we are actually making proper striking contact. if i punch at you with my elbow down and trigger a bong sau, yet continue locking my arm out, you're darn right i'm going to get clocked. i only lock the elbow out when my fist or palm is on the surface of your face, ribs, throat, neck, noggin, etc. and i'm ready to extend my hand through you. if i get through to my target, i'm safe in locking out my elbow. i lock that elbow out any other time and i risk becoming lunch for the more keen chi sau player.

honestly, i know very little about wc and vt technique, so i'm not sure how this falls in other families. i can only speak for the wt i was taught. to me, it makes sense that at least the principles would carry over.

[mun hung]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by yuanfen
[B]Depends on what the purpose of the drill is. Some are for timing. Thus in the lop sao practice you are already supposed to be deflected before the punch reaches the person.

Hello, Yuanfen.
My questions: are both practitioners still in striking range of each other when doing this particular drill? Is attack and defense still the purpose of this exercise, or is it purely for timing?

I've seen this drill done far enough apart that even if there was no defense the punch still would'nt reach. What purpose would that serve?

:confused:

[rubthebuddha]

the only purpose i can see for practicing a technique when not in range is when that technique is first introduced, especially if it's being taught to still-new students, is to make sure they get comfy with the motions before being in range to get hit/hit back. i've seen a few times when newer students learn a technique, get so wrapped up in it, and go a bit too hard with their other hand, lop sau is one of them. so getting people familiar with the technique so when they practice with proper range and power, they're already familiar with the technique and can practice without much worry of slipups.

but that's about all i can think of, and none of my instructors nor i use this method much, if at all. instead, we have people strike to the sternum until their comfy, as we don't want them to get in the habit of hitting air.

[red5angel]

ok, I was just asking, hope you didn't think I was criticsing you, I was just curious because I have always been taught that locking the elbow is a sure sign of trouble, although I believe that I have heard from another source the tecnique for whch you mention.

Red5angel

[rubthebuddha]

nah. i knew you were just asking. and we agree on the locking of the elbow thing. my di-sije loves to take advantage of this. she's about 5'4" and 115 pounds of pure forward intention, and if my elbow so much as leaves my centerline for an instant, unless she has lost her own line (which never happens ;)), i get socked.

[yuanfen]

mun hung asks:Hello, Yuanfen.
My questions: are both practitioners still in striking range of each other when doing this particular drill? Is attack and defense still the purpose of this exercise, or is it purely for timing?

I've seen this drill done far enough apart that even if there was no defense the punch still would'nt reach. What purpose would that serve?
-------------------------- Hi mun hung;;;
many things vary in wc from school to school- does not make them all correct IMO. In any case a true lop sao drill is part of a good chi sao curriculum and correct positioning and timing are
of primary importance. Attack and defense are built into lop sao.
Yes, if my partner does not bong and lop at the right time my punch would reach him. But you dont put full power into it if you are working on and learning timing and positioning.
The "far enough apart" scenario does not apply to my basic lop sao drill so someone else can take a shot at that. However,
I do practice attcks from a distance where you close and apply the learned lop sao skills. Cheers.

[yuanfen]

On locking the elbow when you are in contact with someone-
my advice? FWIW: Dont. A competent person can do many things with a locked elbow.

[rubthebuddha]

yuan fen: not to argue with you, but i've been taught to do this for a variety of reasons. one thing i need to really emphasize is that it's ONLY done when a strike is assured. if i have both of my opponent's arms trapped, i'm safe to strike them and lock that elbow out for a brief moment as i'm striking through them.

[yuanfen]

rubthe buddha- no argument at all. It is good to compare and contrast what folks do. I dont need to lock my elbow in order to deliver full penetrating power- but there are other ways in other schools-I understand. Good wishes. Dont hurt the buddha when rubbing...

[Chuk Hung]

Mun Hung,

"When you do drills in class, is there any hard contact? I mean real punches and kicks.
Also, I've watched some drills on various WC videos and noticed that most of the time punches don't even reach. Is this realistic training?"


Drills should vary in degree of contact, depending on the stage of a student's development. The purpose of drills are to teach the concepts of the system and to train physical attributes. Some of which are sensitivity, relaxation when under pressure, distance awareness, body alignment, understanding and utilizing the centerline theory, hand cooperation, compression, and development of energy, structure and the horse.

A student at the early stages, need to develop these attributes, which takes a great deal of time and patience. Contact is, of course, necessary. Drills should be done with soft contact, so that the student can see and feel what is being done and accomplished. Hard contact at this stage will retard a student's sensitivity and relaxation.

Only when the concepts of WC are understood and applied, and the physical attributes somewhat developed, should the student be allowed to progress to "harder" contact drills. This phase will help to develop the student's physical conditioning, while applying the concepts and attributes that are still developing.

So what you are seeing in the videos, are most likely people trying to explain and/or train the concepts and physical movements of the system. It is rather difficult to see them when you are watching people spar, due to the speed of the movements.

With regards to locking out the elbow when striking, this is known to me as "long arm energy", or "cheung kiu sau". Locking out the elbows allows you to follow expend all your energy into your target/opponent. There are certain situations when this is favorable, usually when there is no obstruction of the path of the strike to its target. This is particularly effective when you have closed the distance to your target, which allows you to fully punch through your target.

I myself, prefer to hit with a bent elbow. Doing this forces me to utilize my forward moving horse, in other words, I am hitting with my body. When hitting with my body, I am forced to root and power off the ground, which adds mass to my punch. This allows me to generate more power. A good example is Mike Tyson, who is not very big in stature, but has tremendous leg strength. When he dips his body, his legs compress and allows him to power off the canvas in such a way, an uppercut can lift a man off his feet.

Also, a locked elbow, at the wrong time, distance and/or position, will make you vulnerable to an arm break or joint lock.

[dzu]

IMO none of the joints should ever be 'locked' or fully extended. Locking a joint is akin to tensing a muscle. Both will impede the transfer of force to and from the ground. When a joint is fully extended, it must retract again to re-open the path. Likewise, when a muscle is tensed, it must be relaxed again begore it can contract appropriately. IMO, the range of motion should be to near full extension and the extending limb should be relaxed and supple. The power should always be there are a moment's notice if the body is aligned properly, the intention to use it is there, and the timing and positioning are advantageous.

Long power is not dependent upon the elbow being locked out. Long power (and short power) is determined by the intention driving the body's alignment. Long power and short power are not exclusive to only certain physical postures.

I practice with both light contact and medium contact, usually to the sternum/torso and legs. Contact to the face, head, joints, and throat is usually very light (placing the hand) followed by a little pressure so my partner is aware of the opening.

Dzu

[Bessho]

Originally posted by Abstract
...is sifu gonna have those workshops?

hello mun hung - what kind of workshops?

[azwingchun]

I completely agree with your comments, though I would also like to add something to that as far as the mechanics of the arm. You can test this for yourself, if you extend the arm fully the tendons and muscles have a natural pull back which doesn't allow for maximum release of power, just maximum reach. In fact there is a slight natural withdrawl of the energy. Just my opinion though, and also from art to art that I have trained in, this is also 1 of the main reasons not to extend as well as the ones you mentioned as well as other taught to me. Of course as mentioned, there are many ways to punch and many seem to vary from each other....so this isn't to say my way is the only way.;)

[rubthebuddha]

the idea, as i understand it so far, is that locking the elbow provides the fullest possible extension through a target, be it someone's ribs, head, etc. i've been taught that not locking the elbow out requires tensing of the opposing muscles to prohibit full extension. a hypothetical argument, and this ignores all other muscles: by punching, you want all the pushing muscles to be used and all the opposing muscles to be relaxed. the best way to do this? do not use your opposing muscles at all, and the arm will naturally straighten itself through the target with no opposing muscles to counteract the force going forward.

again, this is my understanding. i'm not saying it's the only way to deliver power, but it's what i've been taught.

[azwingchun]

I think you just explained the reason for your punching technique, you mention trying to punch through your target. I haven't been taught to present the intent of punching through my target as such, at least since my karate days anyway. And maybe I am misunderstanding what you are saying. But when I think about the term "punching through my target" I get a picture of a harder style(s) such as karate, boxing etc. My training's intent is to penetrate deep into the body not to go through, if this makes sense. So maybe this is why I don't agree with extending my arm completely. But then again if we all believed in the exact same techniques this forum would be useless. ;)

[Shadowboxer]

Muscles don't push, they pull.

[dzu]

IMHO, if you need to lock the elbow out to get full extension, you're positioning and range is off. A more efficient method is to position your body close to the target so that extension doesn't end where the target begins. You should be extendING through the target and not be extendED by the time you reach the target.

Dzu

[rubthebuddha]

what i mean by extending through my target is not to put a huge hole in their torso or noggin, and when i lock my elbow out, it's safe to do so. i've already said that the arm is only extended when the way is safe -- in wing tsun's case, when there's little or no danger for that arm to be locked, be it because both of my opponent's arms are trapped, their back is turned or i've just done one dandy of a flanking job. the point, and please get it this time, is that the arm is safe to extend all the way.

and the reason why i lock the elbow out? stopping the elbow any earlier than locking it out requires using the muscles opposing those firing the strike to tense and contract, thus risking LOSING force in the strike. basic physics. to cease motion, i need to slow it down first.

last point: no, i don't extend the punch then hit. if you're going to listen, listen to it all first, please. i EXTEND through the target.

example: an opponent steps in with an elbow-down punch, and my punch meets his. his punch makes my punching hand tan sau and i turn to deflect his force. as soon as that tan sau is made, my back hand shoots forward to strike. with the elbow down, my fist reaches my opponents nose well before locking out. my hand continues its progress, pushing the opponent's head back and doing damage on the way.

i don't aim to have my arm lock out when my fist reaches his nose. i aim for it to be plenty bent when it reaches his nose and continue to lock out THOUGH my target.

again, as i have stated several times already, this is what i was taught. i'm not saying it's right, nor am i saying what you're doing is wrong. it's what i know and what i agree with. the logic works with me and i'm confident that when it comes down to needed it, it'll be there and be effective.

period.

as far as being a hard style? nowhere near it. at least the style isn't. i, on the other hand, need plenty more work. i'm training to get softer (wow! how many men would actually admit that?), and working with my instructor is like doing chi sau with smoke, he's so soft. but then he traps me or finds me offline (takes about .3 seconds or less) and he extends through me.

[whippinghand]

Originally posted by rubthebuddha
i don't aim to have my arm lock out when my fist reaches his nose. i aim for it to be plenty bent when it reaches his nose and continue to lock out THOUGH my target.

What happens if you miss? Let's say if opponent moves his head out of the way? What are the options for you now "locked out elbow" arm?

[Bessho]

Originally posted by whippinghand

What happens if you miss? Let's say if opponent moves his head out of the way? What are the options for you now "locked out elbow" arm? retract it. dont stop and pose. mabye grab something on the way back. maybe this, maybe that. the possibilities are numerous. use your little imagination.

<ken