Muay Thai 4 Kungfu 1

[patriot]

The final match just completed in Bangkok. Thai won decisively and mostly by KO's.

[Mr. Nemo]

I assume you're talking about the muay thai vs. sanda thing? Was it at L/Rumpinee? Where can I find info about it?

[NorthernMantis]

San Da is not Kung Fu.It's just like San Shou,it's a kickboxing sport.If it was Muay Thai vs. Wing Chun I'll accept.If it was was Muay Thai vs. Lost track fist I'll accept and keep my mouth shut.If it was againts 7* Mantis,8 Step Mantis,Hung Gar,Crane,Tiger Claw...at least something I would accept it.

We are not San Da nor do fight like San Da or San Shou.Quit grouping us together.Name a style already.If not then just say Sand Da and not Kung Fu.

[Ralek]

Northern Mantis. I agree with you. San shou/san da is not kung fu. It is American Kickboxing with folkstyle and greco roman wrestling.

However the fact that san shou is not kung fu is a good thing becuase kung fu sucks. San shou is actually a very effective style since it is kickboxing and folkstyle wrestling. I've fought a former opponent of Marvin Perry (Champion of san shou) in a challenge match. The san shou guys were KO'd by the muay thai because these fights were probably not based on time limits and points where you can survive and then win.

[Ralek]

What's funny is that san shou is the most effective kung fu style. But it's not kung fu!!!!! It's Americna kickboxing.

The creation of san shou is a direct admitance by the chinese that kickboxing and wrestling are superior to kung fu.

[SevenStar]

I thought you miraculously got a life and left this place? Did your boyfriend dump you already?

[qeySuS]

i'll be using the magical ignore button now, let's see how it works.

[Ralek]

I still post here. I'm just not posting for 3 hours a day like i used to.

But i just want to say that I totally agree with NorthernMantis about san shou and san da. They are NOT kung fu.

[Ralek]

"Ignoring the problem does not solve it" --- Bruce Lee

[NorthernMantis]

Uhh Ralek you foget that Tat Mau Wong knocked out some Muay Thai dude back in his day and the Pek Kwar dudes have done well againts Muay Thay.

I had a friend a while back who did traditional Muay Thai.Not that kick boxing sissy stuff.No gloves no nonsense and he said I was too fast for him.

[KungFuGuy!]

Ralek, you're more of an annoyance than a problem.

Didn't the sanda fighters beat the thai fighters 5-1 not too long ago? I guess the two styles are similar in effectiveness, it just comes down to the actual fighters.

[saochoy10]

hey northern mantis,
i was just curious where you found that info on tat mau wong from. i heard he was a tough fighter and was wondering if there was a website where you found this out at. thanks
saochoy

[NorthernMantis]

From his website I think and plus I remeber reading it a couple of times on diferent ma magazines.If I can find it I'll post it.It wasn't just one Muay Thai fighter it was more than one.

[Xebsball]

Hey don't miss out on what you're passing,
you're missing the hootah of the funky buddah,
eluder of the ****ed up style's that get wicked
so come on as I start to kick it,
cause we're like outlaws sridding while suckers are hiding,
jump behind the bush when you see me driving by'
hanging out my window, and my magnum taking out some putohs
acting kind of loco I'm just another local
kid from the street getting paid for my vocals.
Here is something you can't understand,
How I could just kill a man

This is great!! RALEK YOU HAVE BEEN AWARDED!!!

I just wanted to say bye bye to you AND WELCOME TO MY INGORE LIST MWAHAHAHAHAH!!!

BTW, its like Sanda 2, MT 1.

[Mr. Nemo]

I don't mean to split hairs, but kung fu is a generic term for any chinese martial art, and sanda is a chinese martial art. There are people who just train in san shou or san da - not people that train in another art who compete in sanshou, but people that train specifically for the format.

I believe sanda and muay thai are 1-1 now, not 2-1. It's not really that surprising - sanda wins in china, muay thai wins in thailand.

There's no shame is losing to thai stadium champs, those guys are badass. Thai boxing is a much bigger sport in thailand than sanda is in china, it's no big surprise that they produce that quality of fighter.

[nobody]

theres an ignore button??? WHERE!?!?!?!?

[rubthebuddha]

say some punk try to get you for your auto
would you call the one-time, play the role model?
no, i think you play like a thug
next hear the shot of a magnum slug

sorry. (snif) i just get emotional at times like these.

anyone got a hanky?

[Shaolindynasty]

With these results and the last results aren't the 2 running even now?

[Chang Style Novice]

nobody

Click the "User Profile Button" of the user you wish to ignore. A new mini-window will open up with the profile. At the botton of this window (you'll have to scroll) are the options 'add to buddy list' and 'add to ignore list.'

Works like a charm. Ralek got the treatment from me, too.

[Mutant]

Sanda & San Shou are chinese tournament fighting methods developed and derived from chinese kung fu. They are not 'styles' but a synthasis of chinese martial arts, geared towards ring fighting. If you think its not kung fu because theyre not up there doing stylistic techniques that looks like the forms you may practice, you are mistaken. But the 'core' is chinese kung fu. It is not american kickboxing, although some development & advancement of this fighting has taken place in the U.S., as well as other parts of the world (especially China, sanda was developed fairly recently by monks at Shaolin).

The Chinese professional sanda fighters are bad @ss, I've seen recent chinese tournament videos (home video mailed to my SiFu by some of his students in China) of champion pro san shou fighters and their speed, conditioning, & variety of techniques totally blows away most of the san shou that ive seen at U.S. tournaments (w/ the possible exception of Cung Li, the Brazillian team fighters and a small handful of others).
Most competitors in the U.S. San Shou tournaments are doing a combination of American Kickboxing, wrestling, and whatever else they need to fill in the gaps. Maybe you were unimpressed with what you saw at a local tournament and I can understand why, the technique and level of competition is often not particularly good. While many of them are tough guys, their technique is very sloppy compared to real Sanda or Chinese San Shou.

For the same reason olympic level Fencing looks different than traditional Fencing, high level ring fighters don't use the stylistic 'signatures' from traditional CMA styles, but only conservative core techniques that won't get them killed in the ring by another trained fighter. One of the best things about CMA is that many styles have a complete range of striking and takedown, and it doesnt need to be pieced together like those that combine Karate and Judo, for example, and the techniques flow together much better.

So what if the Chinese San Shou fighters just lost a match to the Muay Tai fighters? At least theyre competeing at that level. And conversely, I've seen matches, both live and in video, where San Shou was pitted against Muay Tai and won desisively. The video was from China and filmed the entire tournament, not just a fluke victory, and pro Muay Tai fighters got knocked out.

And I've been at fights held at the local dog track where a few of Jason Yee's San Shou fighters where pitted against competitive Muay Tai fighters from a respected local school, most in the crowd expected the chinese school to get crushed, but they won all their matches. And the main event that night was Marvin Perry (national San Shou champ from Jason's school) against the New England regional WKA Champion for the title belt. This kickboxer must have outweighed Perry by at least 15 lbs, didnt even look like they belonged in the same weight class. Perry knocked him out in the first round, totally devestated him, and that was fighting WKA rules, no takedowns, etc. The kickboxer was doing typical American Kickboxing and the san shou looked much different, you have to look past the gear and rules and see how the fighters moving and executing the techniques, it is much different, if it is real san shou.

So before you go off on something with only limited knowlege, understandiing & exposure with intent to bad-mouth a particular art or sport, get a clue. Maybe you need to meet and talk to Shawn Liu, or better yet, put you money where your mouth is and go seek out & compete against the highest level San Shou fighters in China, see how you fare against the real deal.

[Mr. Nemo]

MutantWarrior is correct.

[SanShou Guru]

ralek Marvin saw ths picture of Shaolin Tiger and he has not fought him. I believe Shaolin Tiger fought Marvin's Teamate Robert Bouyer and not in fact Marvin. Just wanted to let you know so you may want to stop saying you fought a former opponet of Marvin Perry's. Bouyer did win the US Title that year so you can make whatever claims you want to about that.

[saochoy10]

i agree with what your saying also. i've seen a video tape of the professional chinese san shou team as well from my sifu. i assure you those guys are great fighers. they knocked out several of their opponents and won a majority of their bouts....i belevie only one chinese fighter lost his match.
saochoy

[lkfmdc]

There were THREE events of San Da vs. Muay Thai, two were held in China and the third in Thailand. San Da won the first two events.

In Thailand, the score was Muay Thai 4: San da 1

The win for San Da was a decision, showing how tough he must have been to win a decision in Thailand with Thai judges

There was a total of ONE KO... three decision wins

The Chinese said that the Thai officials were trying to remove throws from the fights until the night before

The Chinese have also said that in all three events, the Thai fighters constantly tried to knee the groin, illegal even in Bangkok

If you don't think San Da is Chinese martial art, either you don't know much about San Da or you don't know much about Chinese martial art

[diego]

I study a particular method of hopgar,didnt get many chinese terms,could you elaborate through email on lions roars meteor fists,sofar what i have gotten is they are the longfists of the lamas inwich moves in every direction.Could you kindly share some detials within LR...I'm trying to figure out what harry ng-yim-ming taught and the lion roar principals that are within all the pai's.
Hope to hear from you soon.
please leave your name due to virus if and when you send emial.

[scotty1]

Didn't have to blast him but I did anyway...:)

[NorthernMantis]

I'm not debating wether San Da fighters are good or not.My point is that San Da is not Chinese kung fu.It was never made for protection againts Manchus,Mongols,thives,foreign invaders,etc..It didn't come form years of trial and error handed down by masters in families.

It was made for sport and people are classifying kung fu styles with them.

[eviljungle]

We're all forgetting something REALLY important. This was a controlled match in a setting with RULES.

Were the following techniques allowed:

eye gouges
groin strikes
throat strikes
purposeful bone breaking
muscle tearing
aorta crushing
chin na
etc...

If not, this fight was not a true reflection of any martial art. Punches, kicks, and blocks are only a mere fraction of any true martial art, what ever the nationality.

[lkfmdc]

If you are ignorant of the facts, you should be more careful of what you assert

The techniques used in San Da/San Shou all originate in the traditional Chinese martial arts. Traditional techniques such as "elbow locking", "diagonal flying", "part the grass and seek the snake", "cloud hands" etc are all used consistently in San Da/San Shou... you don't have to wear silk pajamas to be doing Chinese martial arts.

"It didn't come form years of trial and error handed down by masters in families"

Oh really?

San Da/San Shou was tested in modern combat during the Northern Expedition (1928), World War II, the Chinese civil war, the Korean War, and the Cultural Revolution

Again, if you don't know the facts, you really should not be so forceful in your incorrect assertions. The sporting competition is an aspect of San Da, clearly you do not know what San Da is.

Regarding the "deadly technique" argument, time and time again it has been demonstrated that those who focus their training upon techniques which can be actually practiced under realistic situation will defeat those who focus their training upon "deadly" techiques which are "too dangerous to practice"

Take a group of people who do some form of what you call "sport" such as Muay Thai, San Da, boxing, Judo or Brazilian Jujitsu and put them against so called "traditional kung fu" people and regardless of the format the so called "sport" people will win....

"aorta crushing" is so funny it is beyond description. The nonsense some so called traditional people believe in

[Mr. Nemo]

Ah yes....my favorite technique, "golden rooster crushes the aorta."

Not developed for defense against the mongols? Is that the new criteria for determining whether or not something is kung fu?

[fa_jing]

I read an article somewhere that when Judo was created, it was a sport version of Jiu-Jistu, with many of the more dangerous techniques removed from the system. Thus, the Judo players could mix it up and engage more during practice, while the Jiu-Jitsu traditionalists stopped their techniques short so as not to injure their training partner. After a short while, competitive matches were set up between the Jiu-Jitsu top students and the Judo top students. Guess who won? The Judo people, of course. I love traditional martial arts, but realistic training is far more important than stylistic differences, this has been proved time and time again. -FJ

[KC Elbows]

On judo:

True enough, but those results don't necessarily prove anything. The only answer would be found if the judo vs. jiu jitsu matches were to the death. Then, each side would have access to their full system for the matches, and it would truly be an art vs. art battle. In competition, jiu jitsu was still hampered by the fact that many of their techniques were unacceptable to the situation.

Bring back the gladiators!

[NorthernMantis]

Mr. Nemo-


Ah yes....my favorite technique, "golden rooster crushes the aorta."

A better example would be an armbreak followed by an elbow to the torso while simtultaneously dislocating the sholder,uprooting the opponent with your horse stance, and keeping crontol of the wrist :D We both know golden chicken is just an excersise to keep balance for kicks,no one goes into a that stance while kicking at full speed or it would be telegraphed ,only close to it.I know that you were trying to show kung fu's weaknesses but that was misinformed since that stance isn't an attackong stance.It can also be used to defend againts kicks.Very effective againts kicks I might add.

lkfmdc-


Again, if you don't know the facts, you really should not be so forceful in your incorrect assertions.

Fair enough I stand corrected


Regarding the "deadly technique" argument

I never mentioned that and for the defence of deadly stikes yes an eye poke or gouge is very effective.Doesn't matter how big you are, soft organs are soft unless you can make your eyes stronger.Ask a doctor what kind of damage it does and you will see what I mean.


Take a group of people who do some form of what you call "sport" such as Muay Thai, San Da, boxing, Judo or Brazilian Jujitsu and put them against so called "traditional kung fu" people and regardless of the format the so called "sport" people will win....

Uhh no.I know a couple of so called traditional kung fu stylist that sparr other styles and do well.Don't forget that Tat Mau Wong and the the Pek Kwar guys have also done well agains Muay Thai.I have yet to find the info where were Tat Mau Wong knocked out some Muay Thai guys,however.If traditonal kung fu is so obsolete why is wing chun being taught in the military?

Don't forget it's the person not the style.Example:If I were to take bjj I would pummel Rolls :eek: .If I would take boxing Rolls would be begging for mercy :D .If I knew Muay Thai Rolls would hide under his bed :cool:.I may be a "traditionalist" but I know if I would take bjj or any art I owuld be proefficient enough to take on Rolls any day of the week.See what I mean?One style is good enough for me.Just chose the one I came across first,which just happened to be praying mantis.


San Da/San Shou was tested in modern combat during the Northern Expedition (1928), World War II, the Chinese civil war, the Korean War, and the Cultural Revolution

Didn't know that thank you for informing me.You seem to forget that traditional kung fu was also used at that time.Ever heard of Lau Fat Man and the big knife gang?What about "yellow faced killer" (forgot his real name) of the Chin Wu Academy who fought many fighters form different coutnries and won?The Cultural Revolution?I don't know.Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought San Da and San Shou were created after the CR as a result of the PRC.


The only answer would be found if the judo vs. jiu jitsu matches were to the death. Then, each side would have access to their full system for the matches, and it would truly be an art vs. art battle.

I agree.The Jiu-Jitsu traditionalists had to stop their techniques short so as not to injure their opponents and by doing that they lost part of their arsenal.Unfair advantage when when one is not allowed to fight with full potential.


The techniques used in San Da/San Shou all originate in the traditional Chinese martial arts. Traditional techniques such as "elbow locking", "diagonal flying", "part the grass and seek the snake", "cloud hands" etc are all used consistently in San Da/San Shou... you don't have to wear silk pajamas to be doing Chinese martial arts.

I haven't seen San Da up close but I have seen San Shou and I did not see cloud hands or any of the sort.It looked more like kick boxing with semi grappling.Don't lknow much about San Da but San Shou is made up of kickboxing and ohter stuff.


"aorta crushing" is so funny it is beyond description. The nonsense some so called traditional people believe in

The same thing to you about being ingorant about the facts .Read the top of my prost to see abetter description.You're putting words in peoples mouths.No one ever said they believed it would ever do that and it certainly isn't an attack it's a defend a againts kicks and an exercise for balance.

Making ignorant statements and making fun of things will get you nowhere except enrage the person you're trying to inform.Respect others and they will respect you back with understanding.

[gfhegel21]

Actually, in some of the early ju-jutsu-judo competitions (I am only somewhat familiar with them, but there were several, originally to determine what martial art to teach Japanese police), there were a number of deaths.

Also, in the very first judo-jujutsu tournament, judo got smoked, in large part because of weak groundwork. By the second tournament, judo had integrated many of the ground techniques of various jujutsu styles, and pretty much swept the tournament. Their influence is most strongly felt in the kosen branch of judo, which resembles Brazilian jiu-jitsu in its emphasis on ground work.

Anyway, kc elbows, you are going back over old ground. What technique would you trust:
(1) A deadly one that you have never actually used, and have only practiced against an unresisting foe, and never at full power, or
(2) An effective one that you have used hundreds or even thousands of times against a resisting foe at full power?

[lkfmdc]

Northern Mantis

Don't you understand that I can reply to several posts in a single post? The "arota crushing" was brought up by "evil jungle" and is a totally ridiculous concept

As a heart surgeon what a "rib spreader" is some day. You'll find out how hard it is to access the chest.

He also brought up the "deadly technique" argument

But regarding your example of "an elbow to the torso while simtultaneously dislocating the sholder,uprooting the opponent with your horse stance, and keeping crontol of the wrist"

1. An elbow to the torso will very likely not damage the heart, sorry to disappoint you. Otherwise Muay Thai boxers in Thailand would be dying all the time.

2. Have you ever actually tried this technique on a live opponent who is resisting and trying to hurt you?


Another question, how often do you practice your eye gouge?

Where is Wing Chun being taught to the military? If in the US, well, sorry to inform you, there is no official method for military personel in the US. They can train in whatever they want as individual units.

In mainland China, the military trains in San Da! And San Da as military training dates to 1927 and the establishment of the first KMT military academy in Whampoa, southern China

A close friend who is a Judo historian uncovered documents which explain that the Tokyo police challenge matches between Judo and Jujitsu were contested with NO RULES, and several deaths resulted from the matches. Later on, the Kodokan thought this was a bad public image and obscured the event


"I haven't seen San Da up close but I have seen San Shou and I did not see cloud hands or any of the sort"

<b>LOOK HARDER</b>, it is commonly used to catch kicks and is used in many matches

Sadly, many so called traditionalists don't even understand the real applications of their techniques, often content to believe in magic Chi blasts that blow up chickens at 30 feet

[NorthernMantis]

ikfmdc

"The "arota crushing" was brought up by "evil jungle" and is a totally ridiculous concept"

My apology for misunderstanding :o :(


"1. An elbow to the torso will very likely not damage the heart, sorry to disappoint you. Otherwise Muay Thai boxers in Thailand would be dying all the time. "

"2. Have you ever actually tried this technique on a live opponent who is resisting and trying to hurt you?"

1)It's not supposed to damage the heart,even I know that part of the chest is hard to access. Actually the elbow is striking near the armpit region while traveling upward some where between 30 to 45 degrees.I never said it was such a deadly move that it would kill but is very effective and can be very destructive.I have nothing againts MT boxers, my friend was one and a real one at that.

2)Yes I have and tehniques similar to it! :D There was one person who was really resisting,however the guy wasn't going 100% but he did outweigh me.I didn't break his arm though I just skipped that part and basically flipped the guy since I held back.I have used it a copuple of other times.I even used it on my jkd friend ,just showing the application by the way, who's 6'2 and he was impressed by how effective it is and I'm only 5'5.

You seem to forget that I was uprooting the opponent at the same time so it is hard to resist.There are different keypoints why it is very effective.

a)The knee is right behing the opponents leg so the perosn is off balance.The agressor will find it very hard to resist when when his/her base is off.That's one of the objectives of stances, to attack the opponents personal space.Without it it's very hard to generate any type of power or resistance.

b)The horse stance mantains balance and root in case it doesn't work.

c)The ribs and the shoulder are being simultaneously being attacked

d)The arms break can be just an armbar if wanted.Ask any practitioner of any northern mantis style and they will tell you how well it can be used.

e)Leverage

etc.,etc..

"Another question, how often do you practice your eye gouge?"

Everyonce in a while I dwelve deeply into it but eye poking and eye gouging is a forte of notthern mantis style.I can't tell you how many times I have accidently poked my friends eyes unconciously.I've practiced it so many times its embedded in my subconcious and body.It wont come out every time though :p.I do exercise to maintain finger strength.

"Where is Wing Chun being taught to the military?"

Jason Lau teaches in North Carolina I think.I'm not 100% sure.I'll get back to you on that.

"In mainland China, the military trains in San Da! And San Da as military training dates to 1927 and the establishment of the first KMT military academy in Whampoa, southern China"

Thank you for telling me that.I didn't know it dated back so long.Eagle claw was also taught in the military a long time way before San Da was ever introduced and was used for a longer period of time.So was Hsing Yi I think,brutal stuff by the way.

"A close friend who is a Judo historian uncovered documents which explain that the Tokyo police challenge matches between Judo and Jujitsu were contested with NO RULES, and several deaths resulted from the matches. Later on, the Kodokan thought this was a bad public image and obscured the event "

I stand corrected and apologize for my ignorance.I'm not pefect and would like to thank you for sharing that bit of knowledge with me.

"<b>LOOK HARDER</b>, it is commonly used to catch kicks and is used in many matches "

Obviously I do.

"Sadly, many so called traditionalists don't even understand the real applications of their techniques"

You may be right but why is cloud hands being used?If you say it is used in Sand Da and that most San Da fighters are more effective than traditionalists then cloud hands a traditional technique must be an effective technique.Either that or cloud hands is modern.

"often content to believe in magic Chi blasts that blow up chickens at 30 feet"

:D :D :D I thought we all knew that jiujitsujedi's Broken Mirror Bagua Zhang was invincible? :D ;) :)

[NorthernMantis]

ttt

[KC Elbows]

gf:

"Anyway, kc elbows, you are going back over old ground. What technique would you trust:
(1) A deadly one that you have never actually used, and have only practiced against an unresisting foe, and never at full power, or
(2) An effective one that you have used hundreds or even thousands of times against a resisting foe at full power?"

The point is, I practice traditional kung fu, and I have plenty of moves that I have practiced at full speed against resisting opponents, and I have a small number of techniques that I practice that are intended for use IF I need a person dead fast, i.e. an intruder who has an accomplice, a group of people attacking my wife, etc. You try to invalidate my argument while not creating a supportable argument of your own. Since your argument presupposes that EVERY move a traditionalist will practice cannot be practiced "live", as long as even one technique doesn't fulfill your criterion, your argument collapses.

Therefore, IN FIGHTING, I use a number of moves that can be practiced live against a skilled opponent, just like you, yet I am a traditional kung fu practitioner.

However, unlike you(if you practice according to the argument you side with), if I need to drive a lower rib into the body, or hit the kidneys from the front of the body, or attack the eyes, or groin, or what have you, for whatever reason, be it that one attacker is engaging me while another attacks my wife, or there are just too many attackers to take my time and fight them in a traditional sport way, then I will have a greater chance of doing so than someone who has never done such things. I have practiced them, I have experimented with light versions of them on willing guneia pigs, etc.

I don't think anyone would come forward and say that its just impractical or even difficult to poke someone in the eye, or in the temple, or in the throat, etc. It doesn't take very much skill, its not the hallmark of talent, etc, and yet, I'm supposed to buy the argument that, because sports usage can be practiced more, nothing else is useful?

My point with the gladiator comment was that, if all these sports venues went to a gladiotorial, to-the-death format, all the sport guys would occassionally eye gouge, neck break, whatever. The sport would change because of the rules. I like the sport forms of martial arts, but they are not the only valid practice, and, in some cases(point fighting), they are backwards from true fighting.

The other part of the gladiatorial argument, and the reason that the dangerous technique argument is still a valid one, is that, if combat that is specifically to the death became the norm, then all the dangerous techniques of traditional styles could be practiced against live, resisting opponents, fulfilling all the criterion you put forward for useful techniques. So the argument against the dangerous technique argument is only valid at this time, under these specific conditions, and is subject to change.

Of course, next time, I think I'll make my answer brief.:D

[Dragon Warrior]

imho, you know a technique works when you land it on a resisting opponent. When i fight, i happen to land mostly simple techniques. Jab, reverse, hook punches, side, front and roundhouse kicks. This does not mean that other techniques i learn dont work, i just may not be as confident to use them because i have never against a resisting opponent. Of course this doesnt mean that "deadly techniques" do not work. They obviously do, ecspecially if you practice full contact sparring. Instead of hitting the guy with a jab and landing a front kick, punch him in the neck and sidekick his kneecap.

Also, from what i have read, san da fighting is based on TCMA theories and principles including Qi.

One more thing, i have tapped out people by grabbing their throats with an eagle claw type grab. I hate when people say it doesnt work.

[KC Elbows]

Slightly off-topic, but careful with drawing conclusions regarding the amount of force it takes for a rib spreader to open the chest, and what kind of punishment the chest can take. People die every year from blows to the chest, not all of them to the base of the sternum. Those blows don't usually break the breastbone. In addition, take it from someone who has had his sternum broken: the bones of the chest are not invincible. The rib spreader is how doctors open chests that they have to close later, if they didn't care about how the chest looked afterword, they'd probably use power tools.

But dragon warrior, everyone knows eagle claws to the throat don't work!:D

[Sho Pi]

lkfmdc and Mutant Warrior I would like to thank you for helping me realize that I was not alone.

I have watched these sanshou arguments for awhile and was very confused. I had always been taught that sanshou was not a style as much as a ring art. This ring art in China has also been subject to rules modifications depending on who was in power at what time in China.

If I recall my lessons correctly sanshou means something like "taking parts of a form and linking it to other parts". I am not a Chinese linguist though. It was explained that once you learn any form from any art you should then be able to link individual moves in it to any other part of the form as you would in a real combat situation.

Not the most exact answer but it is on the same page as both of you.


Sho Pi

[straightblast5]

I think some of you are missing the boat when debating whether or not sanshou is real kung fu. It's analogous to debating whether chisao is kung fu. Both are exercises done within a corresponding style to improve the attributes needed to execute techniques (deadly or not) against a resisting opponent.

Sport sanshou was developed as a way to train the attributes needed for a solider to be a good fighter on the field, much as chisao is an exercise done to enhance the practitioner's ability to execute techniques upon a resisting opponent.

When I mention attributes (in relation to sanshou), I mean speed, power, distancing, focus, endurance... all of which can be applied to enhance techniques (deadly or not).

With that said, I have to state that I don't believe sport sanshou independent of the military version can be called a fighting method. Practiced by itself, I feel sport sanshou is merely a sport. When in the ring you are restricted to the rules and regulations enforced to protect the longevity of the fighters. During actual combat, practicing solely for these regulations will hinder one’s efficiency to incapacitate his or her opponent(s).

Of course, the above statements are merely opinions formulated from my own research and experiences.

Phil
Ng Family Chinese Martial Arts Association (http://www.ngfamilymartialarts.com)

[NorthernMantis]

ttt because I'm still waiting for ikfmdc's feedback.

straightblast5-

Nice website but you're missing a something.It didn't say where you guys are located at.Cool pics.I didn't know you guys passed by wah lum.

[Braden]

KC Elbows - Actually, I'll come out and say it. Scoring AN EFFECTIVE eye or throat attack is ridiculously hard, and DOES require a huge amount of skill.

[KC Elbows]

Braden,

Feel free to be direct with me, I don't offend easily. I also don't disagree with the merits of sport fighting being able to test all of its techniques, and I try to test all the techniques I can in much the same way.

Here's the question:

Who have you tried to seriously attack the eyes or throat of in reality, and what jail do you now reside in? Just kidding on the second part, I'm assuming it was in street confrontations. Granted, the eye is a small target, but when I was early on in my training, and didn't have much control, I was somewhat notorious for accidentally hitting the throat, so I have some difficulty seeing the problem with a throat strike.

I suppose I should clarify something: my take on eye attacks is generally to try to launch an effective attack toward the eyes in order to elicit a response and expose another area. However, if the other person doesn't block the eye attack, and the situation merits it, I'll drive through. Mind you, I'm more likely to just elbow, but that's just my preference.

[Braden]

KC E - I've taken full strength strikes in the heat of battle to both my eyes and throat and it didn't phase me much. Anatomically, both are extraordinarily resilient structures. If you so wish (and this applies well to 'gouges') you can stick your thumbs entirely into your eyesockets and then retract them without much risk of any damage to your eyes. Your eyes can also be 'popped' out of their sockets without being damaged (please don't actually do this, as you _can_ damage yourself miserably; it's just far from reliable). Similarly, you can depress the cartilegenous structure of your throat, and it will simply bounce back; an experience that is unpleasant, but does not cause any damage. Both structures are also instinctually very well guarded, even by untrained fighters. A fighter with even minimal training in any art should be doing some basic things (like the slight tuck of the chin) which will make them even harder to get. The size of the targets means that even a slight deviation in the vector of your strike (as in the case of a bungled block) will render it ineffective. How many times do you get a free, unobstructed strike at someone's face? If you have this opportunity, really you're set allready, you don't have anything else to worry about. The really crappy part about these attacks is that if you bungle them (which by all accounts is relatively very likely), they're useless. Whereas, if I bungle a full force elbow to the side of your head, it's still going to do something (at very least take your balance a little, which gives me enough time to coordinate a reaction) - will a bungled eyepoke that lands on the cheek do this?

Don't get me wrong, I am not an advocate for the superiority of sportive training - quite the contrary. However, the conception among the vast majority of 'non-sportive advocates' (heh, you know what I mean), is (as you put it) that the kind of lethal strikes that are illegal in sportive competition (eg. in this discussion, eye and throat strikes) are effective and easy to do (as you put it - require no skill). I don't know whether or not you actually believe this (ie. whether or not the principle effects your training), but you did say it. On the contrary, I think that these kinds of 'lethal' strikes require quite a bit more skill. If you're just punching someone in the face until they fall down, any kind of force injection is going to be pretty good - really, the more force, the better. If you want to strike someone in the throat to cripple them, this is NOT the case. Simply striking the throat like you'd strike anywhere else won't work. You have to learn some very specific striking techniques for the throat alone (actually, various ones for different parts of the throat; and also specific ones for the eyes, etc). Once you have learned these and trained them to power, you're quite right - these strikes can be deadly (provided of course you can make them - there's still all the same concerns about actually getting a clean strike off on these targets), however very few people learn these specific striking techniques (as evidenced by the common conception that simply hitting these places is going to work). And my disagreement stands that they require more skill, not less, than 'regular' strikes.

[rubthebuddha]

i know that both wing tsun and wing chun have been taught to the marines 4th recon, but i don't know if it was an elongated seminar on close combat or if it is something regularly taught to the troops.

[NorthernMantis]

Man Braden you must be made of steel cause I have accidently poked my friends eye slightly ( more than once ) by mistake and he was incapacitaed for a couple of minutes.I think depends on the person.I still don't understand how you can take a full force srike to the eyes and not be phased.Was it a punch or n eye poke?I learned in anatomy that the eyes are very delicate and can be damged easily.

On Bradens defence I'd like to point tou that I have been kicked in the groin before and was still able to put up a fight although I was in a lot of pain:( A lot of pain!

[Braden]

Did you poke your friends eye in the heat of battle or in the middle of baking a cake? It makes a HUGE difference. If you don't believe me, convince one of your sparring partners to follow you around for a couple days and smack you really hard in the head one time when you don't see it coming. Compare to results from sparring.

But I never argued that being poked in the eye never hurts. In fact, if you read my post, I clearly stated it was sometimes next-to-lethal. I only argued that it isn't reliably debilitating in the heat of battle, more easily (ie. in a manner which requires dramatically less skill) than comparible 'normal' strikes.

Yes, the warning 'be carefull of your eyes, they're quite delicate' is a very common caveat. For instance, if you're working on plaster, you've got to worry alot more about a chunk of it flying off and hitting your eye than your cheek. This doesn't change the simple fact that they're also remarkably resilient in other circumstances. Evolution simply doesn't give us something we need to survive, put it in the most common striking location, and then make it needlessly fragile. If you don't believe me about the resilience of the eyeball, check your TV listings for next airing of eye surgery on whichever channel plays all the surgeries where you live.

You're right about groin shots. Everything I've said about eyes and throats is true about them. The idea that these kinds of things are one-shot-simple-TKOs is so destructive because it has created the atmosphere which makes most women think that kneeing a male assailant in the groin will more than suffice for self-defense. Something which, sadly enough, is actually taught in a ridiculous number of self-defense courses.

[KC Elbows]

Good replies, Braden!

OK, I gues I made two errors in my post. First, when I was talking about relative ease of such techniques, I was not saying they are easier than punches and kicks, my thinking was they were easy to pull off compared to many grabs and throws, chin na techniques, etc. Looking back at my post, I definitely did not remember to put that in there, but that was my general meaning.

The second error was to make it sound like such techniques were easy at all. Again, I was I was making a relative statement in comparison to more difficult chin na techniques that I practice, and you couldn't possibly know that from my post.

What I tend to find with throat strikes, eye attacks, etc, is that I must create an opening for them, but once I can create that opening, they are much simpler to execute. Creating the opening usually involves moves that I can practice full speed on resisting opponents, so I know I can get that far, and if need be, use less involved attacks once I get there, but I won't rule out the more vicious attacks unless the situation doesn't warrant it.

As an aside, my style has one eye attack that I am fond of. It is very fast, and can be executed without giving up too much defensively. The attack is a flick attack using shaking power that is intended not to poke the eye, but to drag the fingertip along the eye's surface. As a contact wearer who has scratched his cornea before, I can tell you that the eye has absolutely no resilience that way at all: although it can heal from such things well, in combat, tomorrow does not matter.

Thank you Braden, you made me think very hard about my martial arts. Fortunately, I generally don't practice like I post, or I'd be one bruised fighter.

[Braden]

KC E - Heh. Well, don't take me too seriously; I'm probably wrong about alot of stuff. I just have opinions and would like to think I have reasonably good reasons for most of them.

My style historically has alot of eye and throat strikes in them. My teacher has de-emphasized (at least in his teaching to me so far) eye strikes almost completely, and throat strikes a little bit. In my own practice, I would like to continue the trend.

It sounds like our training has alot of parallels though. You alluded before to the idea of using these as closing techniques. Throat strikes are major closing techniques in our style as well. I'm not sure exactly why, but the mechanics of executing a throat strike and how people react to it seem to set you up extremely well for closing aggresively. Also I know what you're talking about considering your eye strike. It's my feeling that the best eye striking techniques involve very percussive/whipping energy aimed at the outside edge of the eye, rather than the deep/straight/penetrating gauge most people attempt. The whipping energy, I feel, is less demanding in terms of commitment and range, sets up for combinations better, and done properly is much more effective for causing serious damage.

I'm a serious proponent of properly targetting your strikes. One of the main reasons not yet mentioned that I'm not personally fond of eye strikes and frontal throat strikes, as well as groin strikes (the three shots people usually think of in these kinds of discussions) is that I try to emphasize working the outer doors more, for which these are usually not ideal targets.

[rogue]

I've taken an unexpected eye poke, and was able to finish the fight. As time went by (minutes) it did get really bad as my eyes were watering very badly, I developed a temporary sensitivity to light and this contiued on for several days.

[NorthernMantis]

Actually I have for both :D but thanks for correcting me though.I just skimmed since I was in a hurry.Sorry to make such an avoidable mistake.

Cool thread.Everone is making good points left and right without a single flame. :cool:

[straightblast5]

Thanks for your kind words about our website. We have several locations throughout Illinois. Our headquarters is in Chicago's Chinatown. Our contact information is on the contact section of our website. Please follow the link below.

Contact Information (http://www.ngfamilymartialarts.com/contact.htm)

Take Care,

Phil
Ng Family Chinese Martial Arts Association (http://www.ngfamilymartialarts.com)

[KC Elbows]

TTT

Let's do this again.

[JWTAYLOR]

I like to think of the eyes, throat, and groin as minor strikes or targets of opportunity.

Get them when you can. But don't count on them to be what finishes a fight. But hey, if I'm going to throw an inward elbow at your temple, I might as well try and give your eyes a claw on the way back out.

BTW, I've taken full force puches to the throat both in sparring and once even on a bet. In none of those instances did it slow me down in the least. I've even seen one man have a bull stomp down on his throat at a rodeo without any effect. However, those in the know have gotten my throat in their hands and the result was quite different. I've had my adam's apple twisted before and it made my throat instantly spasm shut and my sinuses drain at the same time. That was pretty incapacitating as I couldn't breath at all.

JWT

[Xebsball]

http://members.tripod.com/~crane69/index.html

More specificly:
http://members.tripod.com/~crane69/index6p.htm

IMHO, that site is biased...
Thats the reason why in my bookmark i named the link to the site "Baji *******".

[Stacey]

It may be a chinese art, but thats not kung fu. Look at how tense their soulders are. Who cares. Screw china. Those muy thai guys looked like martial artists.

[Xebsball]

"Screw China"

Screw you, you suck.

[rubthebuddha]

and you boys and girls thought we couldget by without flames.

[Mr. Nemo]

"It may be a chinese art, but thats not kung fu. Look at how tense their soulders are. Who cares. Screw china. Those muy thai guys looked like martial artists."

Right.... I thought chinese martial art was kung fu. Obviously I was wrong. Silly me. Why listen to successful ring fighters when I can listen to an anonymous poster on the internet, who may or may not have a chicken sack?

Man, the PRC shoulda sent Stacey to fight the thais. With his/her relaxed shoulders, the thais wouldn't have stood a chance.

That article is biased. The sanda fighters won the two first matchups, the thais won the third - that makes the record stand at 2-1. How does that mean that sanda has a "long way to go before it can challenge the supreme striking art - muay thai"?

That said, no shame in losing to Rumpinee champs, those guys are badass.

[KC Elbows]

OK, I didn't exactly bring this to the top so that we could argue about China. Rub, perhaps you called this correctly.

Regarding sport vs. lethal, I'm curious to hear the views of some of the sport proponents, especially the ones who do grappling. Although you obviously don't practice such in competition, but in a hypothetical self defense situation, you've got a couple attackers and you've had to go to the ground against one. You have a limited time to deal with the first before the second attacker gets to you, and the only opening you see is for a neck break(obviously this scenario infers a life-or-death situation). There is no time for a sleeper. Do you do the neck break, even though it is not as practiced as moves you can perform in a competitive situation?

[truewrestler]

sorry, i would rather not kill/paralize someone in a fight...their are only a couple "neckbreaks" I can think of which may or may not actually break a guys neck.

>>>from a sleeper position(easier when sitting with opponent in front of you) run your forearm across your opponents face at about their chin and lock your hands. If you use your right forearm to crossface then your opponent will be looking to his left and your right forearm will be about parallel with his shoulders. Now force him to look past the natural range of the neck. You can use your left elbow against your opponent's back for leverage. I suppose the more violent the movement the better. Put your whole body into it but your left elbow against his back can prevent him from moving with his neck.

Do you want to be a guinea pig so I can practice?

>>> Another one is similar in effect to the one above and is called a front face lock. From a guillotine position(both standing or on knees) place your left hand on your opponent's right shoulder. Cross face with your right forearm and grab your left wrist with your right hand. your opponent will be looking to the right. Squeeze your elbows together and twist your forearms to get the tap in sport but to cause damage you can sprawl and upon impact your chest goes into the back of their head and your arms go up forcing their neck violently past its normal range of motion. How much of an affect it has is debatable.

Do you want to be a guinea pig so I can practice?

Both of these can/are used in jiu-jitsu and submission wrestling when the rules allow(all moves must be gradual so no sprawling with the front face lock or violent twisting). Judo/Sambo don't allow neckcranks.

by the way, a sleeper takes as little as 4 or 5 seconds to dissorient or put someone to sleep. Especially against someone with no defense.

cool thread

[truewrestler]

KC, there are moves in submission arts called neckcranks. Just like a lock on any other appendage most can be classified as straight, twisting, or compression. You have straight locks that force the head forward, twisting locks that force the head to turn past its normal range left and right, and compression locks that squeeze the neck muscles.

Twisting locks seem to be the most dangerous and quickest to use.

[Merryprankster]

What tw said;

I would like to add though, that neck breaks are NOT quick and easy moves. This is a fallacy. The neck is a phenomenally tough combination of bone, sinew and muscle.

You might slightly hurt somebody, but those rag doll type-twisting snaps simply aren't that simple to do.

I have landed every which way you can think of on my head and back, and have taken all sorts of stress on my neck, and have yet to suffer a serious neck injury.... a couple of bad trapezius pulls, though. :)

In a multiple opponent scenario and I'm grappling one by necessity, it all just depends. Generally speaking, I'll try to place my opponent between me and the other attacker and then manuever myself into a position where I can stand up and run for the nearest opening. We did a similar scenario not too long ago, with three on one. The idea was that the "bad guy" had taken you down and his "bad guy friends," were across the room in a bar or similar, mildly public/congested area. You had to sweep and run.

Well, one time I missed the sweep and got tangled up with my opponent on the ground. I was able to break free just as the "bad guys" got there. I immediately turned towards one of the guys and did a quick double leg, turn and dump finish simply to off balance him. I recovered through the shot, turned into him to put him in between me and the other two guys (one just getting up, the other tripping over the tangled mess and trying to get around)

Then, I ran for the "exit."

The above is just an example, but that, generally speaking, is the way I'm headed.

Or a heel hook. A heel hook is quick AND nasty and will prevent the opponent from standing and chasing you. It's also phenomenally easy to land on somebody who's not used to them.

[truewrestler]

For almost any submission you must use your entire body against an appendage(head in this case) while keeping the rest of the body from moving with the force. Its funny in movies when people are grabbing the chin and the guys hair, twisting and the guy drops like he is dead. Believe it or not, many people actually think this will break someone's neck and incompacitate them.

I have never heard of a guys neck breaking from a hold, PERIOD. Has anyone?

I agree with you James.

Neckcrank = maybe, Heelhook = surgery :) but there are other strategies as you pointed out which are better against multiple attackers.

OMG, there was a vicious heelhook in i think KOTC 4. In slow motion you could see the exact moment the ACL snapped (or whatever tendons ligaments in the knee that is affected). One moment there was resistence and the next absolutely none as the guy's lower leg is turned 180 degrees. Needless to say, he didn't walk off.

I don't think that even after training for years I would attempt a neckcrank in a fight as an alternative to a choke. The one's I mentionned above leave you in position to get the hell out of there and that's just what I would want to do against multiple attackers. #2 would be perfect for knees anyway :)

[GGL]

Historically chinese boxing was performed on a raised platorm called "lei tai". The Lei Tai dates back centuries in China where challenge matches were fought both bare handed and with weapons with no rules- often resulting in death or serious injury. At the National Chinese tournament in Nanking in 1928, the fights on the Lei Tai were so brutal that 12 contestants were not permitted to fight.

I guess you might say that this type of boxing is "practical application" for your kung fu style training.

[KC Elbows]

Awesome responses! Now I regret actually getting some work done for the last few hours. Where were my priorities?

Truewrestler,
I'd love to be a guniea pig. However, you can only meet me in the park, between 6:00 and 6:05, and you can't bring any friends, as I have no friends to bring, and it would just make me feel lonely. Oh, wait, I forgot to switch to my new persona, Ralek....

Anyway, interesting stuff. I figured that those with some experience would come forward with alternatives I didn't see in my hypothetical. I like the fact that multiple opponent situations follow some similar ideas, i.e. keeping one opponent between you and the other.

That's it. I'm quiting kung fu and joining my nearest grappling school. I just need to find somewhere to buy the traditional grappling uniform: does the tutu have to match the pink leotard? :D

[truewrestler]

all you need are some tighty whiteys, lol

[KC Elbows]

I'll just borrow GDA's.:D

[truewrestler]

make sure they are washed because the crotch is usually right in front of your nose when you put them on your head

[truewrestler]

i just reread my techs and I'd be impressed if you understood :)

[KC Elbows]

I understood well enough. The second one sounds similar to a judo move I've seen, though the move I'm thinking of was executed with the opponent ooon top of you, and was pure strangulation.

[truewrestler]

yeah, i just found a video clip of the choke that the front face lock is a variation of.

http://www.groundfighter.com/catchwrestling.html

Click on the "Neck Manipulation 1" video clip

The figurefour choke isn't that common yet but was actually in UFC 33. Didn't finish the fight but was very tight. Do you watch the UFCs?

[KC Elbows]

I've caught a few of them. My wife hates that stuff, so I have to catch it when she's got other plans.

It amazes me, the woman can watch some poor guy on a surgery show spurting blood from multiple gunshot wounds, but she can't watch someone getting an elbow to the head. She doesn't even want to be in the same area as me when our class is sparring.

[truewrestler]

haha, how does she feel about boxing and prowrestling. Will she watch those?

I was refering to the Menne x Castillo fight by the way.

[KC Elbows]

Sorry, neither boxing or pro wrestling involve spurting gunshot wounds, so until they can be made more "street real", its a no go with the missus.

I didn't see that fight, BTW.

[Daredevil]

I was in Thailand for two weeks and saw some of those matches. Unfortunately on television rather than at Lumpini.

The one where the chinese guy won was very cool. He dominated, did a lot of takedowns, but it was quite a fight. Was a great match showcasing the different approaches of the chinese and thai fighters.

The second one was a clear win for the Thai and the third one I saw ended in the first round with a swift KO from a punch to the chin.