The first strike?

[DelicateSound]

I train for the first strike - that's all I need...

A quote from Mr. Geoff Thompson. I don't know what you all think of him, but he brings up a good question: How much better is a "street style" martial art suited to self-defence?

Mr.Thompson shares the idea that on the street you don't need any flashy moves or tournament experience, just a good hard punch and a no-nonsense attitude.

Do you agree?


**BTW - Cracking forum, but I want my old name back!! :eek:

[Paul]

I think I would pretty much have to agree with that, from personal experience, I'm not an expert on the subject.

[Tigerdragon]

The problem comes in when you have an attacker that is a skilled street fighter, or someone who can take a solid shot and keep going. In this case it is better to have all the skill you can possibly have. It is always better to have the extra skills then to take a chance with your life.

Just my thoughts.

[Mantis9]

There is always an inherent weakness in absolute statement like Mr. Thompson's. Someone who knows him, whether friend or foe would take into account his methods, and try to circumvent him.
Of course, there is the possiblity that this would not stop Mr. Thompson from prevailing anyway. I couldn't say, I don't know him.

"Street style" martial arts, I believe have an advantage in that they are usually gear toward awarness of your surroundings and simple solutions that are practical.

The conventional martial arts teach you in an environment where you progressively drill, spar, and critique people of different skill levels. You are training to fight other skilled martial artist. The good first strike might not always work.

Bruce Lee, though a proponent of practicality and directness, in Tao of Jeet Kune Dao writes of faints and feins that are indirect attacks that effectively lead to a direct attack by messing around with the opponents sense of timing and motor reaction.

I would say the best lesson a conventional martial artist should take away from "street" styles is awareness of your surrounding. On the other side of the coin, the pragmatic disciple should be aware of the opponent as a traditionalist, probably unknowingly, trains to do.

Of course, there are a lot of what if's and execeptions you could make to my statements. I'm not trying to make any absolute statements here. There are both dynamic intelligent fighters from many different backgrounds I have had the priviledge of seeing in action.

[Ginger Fist]

street style? r u nuts or have u been brain washed? tcma is street fighting. u gweilos screwed it up with ur $$$ driven greed & sports mentality. ? do u think the ancients did ... sit around inventing tcma for play time enjoyment?

throw away the term self-defense. the system is 4 producing lethal force. u might use it 4 a situation that could be called self-defense but that is situation dependent application, not the art.

[Paul]

>>>Mr.Thompson shares the idea that on the street you don't need any flashy moves or tournament experience, just a good hard punch and a no-nonsense attitude.

This the part that I pretty much for the most part agree with.

Whether or not something is street effective depends how you train. Not whether or not it is a "street style" (whatever that means).

[nobody]

it would be so much nicer in here, if we could all just have a discussion without someone looking to blame someone else for a problem that is not likely to be fixed. maybe im a little too "P.C." here but i would appreciate not using racial/ethnic stereotypes as part of a discussion. if you were chinese(which im not saying you are, because i dont know) and i called you a *****, gook, jap, and all those "wonderful" racial slurs, would you like it?...NO, YOU WOULD'NT!! i dont exactly like to be called gweilo. and i especially dont like being blamed for something i didnt do. its not my fault, that a whole bunch of white guys came back from WW2 with a little bit of knowledge and used it to make a buck. im not going to take responsibilty ofr their actions, nor should i, or anyone here take the blame. your post has a point, but it can be made without being rude and hostile. so before you go blabbering your mouth, you might want to think about what your saying.

[shaolinboxer]

Most Chinese "sifus" are equally fraudulent.

Also, yes, the "ancients" did sit around transforming combining their deadly combat skills with their philosophies to deliberately creat the martial arts we find today. They are no longer simply systems of deadly techniques (although these techniques are present).

As for first strike...dangerous stuff, striking first. It makes great sense in a pure combat environment, but not quite as much sense in modern society.

[fmann]

Originally posted by shaolinboxer
As for first strike...dangerous stuff, striking first. It makes great sense in a pure combat environment, but not quite as much sense in modern society.

The preemptive attack is not considered self-defense in the legal realm. However, if you know something is going to happen, then it's a different case. If 5 guys surround me, wielding chains and bats, you know as all hell that I'm going to lash out first. :D

It's true though that tcma and self-defense are no longer synonimous (spelling?) with each other. A lot of schools and sifus don't focus on confrontation and actually building fighting experience and comfort until maybe like 2 or 3 years in to the system. That's too long IMHO.

In my opinion, for self-defense, even a beginner should be able to walk out of 1 class with at least 1 usable self-defense tactic/technique. He/she may not be able to execute it perfectly, but something usable is better than nothing.

[Mutant]

I agree that lethal 1st strike is important and should be trained, that no 'flashy' stuff belongs on the street, and that 'tournament experience is not nessesary' to be effective in the real world...
BUT, I feel this is very short sighted and a dangerous attitude that underestimates opponent(s) ability to take your punishment (what if he's on pcp?), or what if you get attacked by more than one, does he think he won't get hit, and will be able to 'first strike' them all in turn? Or what if a punch isnt the best weapon for the situation, which could have infinate variables.
And tournament fighting is one of the best readily available fighting simulations (of course different than a real fight, but a closer training simulation than most available) to test the power of your punch and mental fortitude under a stressful situation where an adversary is trying to give you a real life beating.
Based on that statement, without knowing more details and background, I would call Thomson a lazy, egotistical and one-dimentional martail artist who someday gets his ass beat do to not achieving a 1 stike knock out on some bad @ss mofo.
I've seen jabs and even finger strikes that have knock out power and stopping ability, but never anyone who thought that was all they ever would need and that they could land those strikes perfect the 1st time in every situation. What a wanker...

[Ginger Fist]

it would be so much nicer in here, if we could all just have a discussion without someone looking to blame someone else for a problem that is not likely to be fixed.

--not blame, statement of fact

maybe im a little too "P.C." here but i would appreciate not using racial/ethnic stereotypes as part of a discussion.

--u have no idea what gweilo means to hakka

if you were chinese(which im not saying you are, because i dont know) and i called you a *****, gook, jap, and all those "wonderful" racial slurs, would you like it?...NO, YOU WOULD'NT!!

--YES I WOULD, i revel in abuse from jerk offs like u

i dont exactly like to be called gweilo.

--u have no idea what gweilo means to hakka

and i especially dont like being blamed for something i didnt do. its not my fault, that a whole bunch of white guys came back from WW2 with a little bit of knowledge and used it to make a buck. im not going to take responsibilty ofr their actions, nor should i, or anyone here take the blame.

--it was & is a statement of fact. get off the cross sensitive suffering guy, God is getting tired

your post has a point, but it can be made without being rude and hostile.

--ooooohhhh u sweet, shy, sensitive, mush head, blow it out ur shorts

so before you go blabbering your mouth, you might want to think about what your saying.

--i thought about it, ur a jerk off trying to play pc police, p*i*s*s off, wanker

[Ginger Fist]

Most Chinese "sifus" are equally fraudulent.

--maybe in ur family, not in mine

Also, yes, the "ancients" did sit around transforming combining their deadly combat skills with their philosophies to deliberately creat the martial arts we find today. They are no longer simply systems of deadly techniques (although these techniques are present).

--speak for urself shaolin mythman. kwongsi jook lum tong long is still pure in certain places ... like in my house. the other stuff is just that, other stuff ... sun dar

[JWTAYLOR]

First, I would just like to say I LOVE the ignore list. Just shuts the trolling right on down for me.

As far as Thompson, I'm buyin what he's sellin. I dont' think that just one strike will always do it, and I"m not sure that's what he's trying to say, but the first strike is always the most important and it's the one that you should focus on the most. Too many of us tend to think about the second and third hit of a 3 strike combo intead of focusing on the first one instead.

JWT

[Dark Knight]

Gweilo = a couple of loose translations. White ghost, White Chap White Devil or Foriegn Devil.
Most people do not take offense to this.
But why is a round eye in the middle of no-where useing it?

[nobody]

i know exactly what it means, apperently you dont. im just callin it like i see it. im not going to continue this and ruin the thread, so im just going to say that just because im not speaking to you in person, does not mean that you shouldnt have manners!! i doubt that you will care that you're on my ignore list, but at least i wont have to here your neanderthalic speech.

[TheGhostDog]

MutantWarrior wrote: "Based on that statement, without knowing more details and background, I would call Thomson a lazy, egotistical and one-dimentional martail artist who someday gets his ass beat do to not achieving a 1 stike knock out on some bad @ss mofo. "
Perhaps you should get more background and details before you disparage an excellent martial artist and fighter.
When Geoff writes: "I train for the first strike - that's all I need..." he is saying that with years of fighting experience and hundreds of fights to back it up. He says he has a great right cross; I've seen some of his videos, read his book and spoken to friends who have trained with him and they all vouch for that fact.
Mr Thompson's theory is that the first strike is most important, and will generally decide the fight. Once again, he is saying this as someone who has years of experience to back this statement up. While it might seem obvious to some, it's also pretty obvious that a lot of people, and that includes most martial artists, have no idea about fighting. In fact, generally martial artists are worse as they get all these ridiculous notions of "only using their art for defence" or of waiting for their opponent to strike first. Just look at some of the silly questions posted on this forum and you can see that most of the people here have never been in a fight and have no clue as to what happens.
Mr Thompson is not saying "Only practice your first strike". He is saying that it's the most important strike. He regards the other training as auxillary training, such as boxing, kicking, grappling and groundwork. His theory is to knock the guy out with your first strike, but if that doesn't work, then you have all your other training as backup. This to me, as someone who has also worked security in some rough clubs for quite a while, makes good sense.
Mr Thompson's statement may seem arrogant, but after having over four hundred fights, I would say he has the right to make such statements.

[Mutant]

Hey GhostDog, thanks for the explaination & background info....

I admit that i jumped to the conclusion that he was one of those rip off artists who claim to possess one 'magic' technique that will win everytime, is unbeatable and some goofy trick that would never work in real life....but thats kind of what it sounded like and what i thought you guys were endorsing...i DID say "based on....w/o knowing more..." because without knowing who this guy is or what his training, background, ideas are, it sounds kind of far-fetched and i'd never heard of him before. I figured it was one of those 'send $50 and i'll send you the ultimate fighting secet, you don;t even have to train..' things so i said my $.02.

BUT based on what you say if he is that good and respected and trains well-rounded for many scenerios AND has a killer first strike that he emphasises in training and its worked for him numerous times, then yeah, the guy must be a badass and i totally respect his ideas and its probably worth checking out his techniques. And i agree that a good first strike is often the deciding factor in a fight. And yes, waiting to counter attack is a bad idea, youre right that MA who wait or hesitate are probably going to lose and probably have little experience or understanding of a real fight, i agree with that completely.

Cheers!

[Ginger Fist]

Gweilo = a couple of loose translations. White ghost, White Chap White Devil or Foriegn Devil.

--wrong ... u don't know the inference ... just word 2 word translation. not even close.

Most people do not take offense to this.

--most people, including u don't know ? it means.

But why is a round eye in the middle of no-where useing it?

--my mother's side of the family is hakka. spm comes thru her family 3 generations direct from kwongsi jook lum temple. ur in the land of steers & qu*e*ers & ur busting on montana?

[Ginger Fist]

i know exactly what it means, apperently you dont.

--wrong answer stumpy ... try again.

im just callin it like i see it.

--kewl & while ur at it by all means deny me the same right.

im not going to continue this and ruin the thread, so im just going to say that just because im not speaking to you in person, does not mean that you shouldnt have manners!!

--if we were in person u would p*i*ss urself.

i doubt that you will care that you're on my ignore list, but at least i wont have to here your neanderthalic speech.

--i'm honored that u put me on ur list.

[remo]

Geoff Thompson has a book out by the name of "Dead or Alive".

It is an excellent read, and discusses his research into street encounters (of the violent kind). There is a section consisting of conversations with convicted felons, and their approach to picking victims on the street for crime and just to beat up for the heck of it.

His explanation about "the interview" is worth the price of the book alone.

Check it out if you get a chance. (I had to special order it from Paladin Press)

[DelicateSound]

Ghost Dog and Mutant Warrior:

Sorry about not being clear on the "first-strike" thing. He doesn't ever claim to be able to put people down in one, or that the 1st hit is all you train for, I was just trying to raise the issue of pre-emptive striking. Sorry :(



Ginger Fist:

You've spammed ANOTHER of my posts! :mad: Can't you not-troll for a bit, sometimes you make good points! It just seems that you disguise them under a veil of abusive, malevolent, derogatory horse-****e. Shame really.

As for Geoff Thompson, I agree with most of what he writes. His no-nonsense approach really makes a few of the more "romanticised" martial artists wake up and smell the tarmac.

[DelicateSound]

Dead or Alive is a cracking read, as are his "Real" guides.

DOA in particular is the kind of thing that makes you not want to fight. It makes you think, "****in' hell, I could die out there". Which unfortunately is a sad truth.