More Concepts

[curtis]

After reading more into this site, I found some more concepts I thought were wing chun, thay are centerline,gates,and doors?
Are these the same as in wing chun?


C.A.G.

[EARTH DRAGON]

I think you mean from my post about gates and doors, but no there are not from wing chun they are from 8 step praying mantis. Not to say that wing chun doesnt have these but I was talking about our system

[curtis]

Earth dragon
thank you for responding.
Your comments on doors and gates are very interesting. What I was looking for is the definitions for each. (Example. To me it sounds very much like a perimeter concept. Perimeters are set body positions which you do not want to cross or go outside of, the purpose of perimeters are for efficienticy of motion, speed, and power. In this concept you learn the difference between blocking, and clearing the perimeter.) (I hope I am making sense? There is much more to it, but that's just an example)
What are doors and gates?
I find that many similar concepts are used in most of the Chinese martial art's, (of course there are differences, each art puts its own spin on certain concept. But there is more common ground between the arts then I first thought.)
Again thank you for responding, and I am looking forward to hearing from you again.
Sincerely yours C.A.G.

[EARTH DRAGON]

doors and gates are a way of breaking down the body of your opponent in order to defeat him.
upper gate would be above the waist and lower below. front door is the front and side .etc .etc
we will use certain techniques to open the upper gate and attack the side door and visa versa.
there are many ways to eye up your opponent shall we say but I find this to be the most effecient.
We also have 8 cardinal points which go hand and hand with these concepts.
attack high go low
when attacking right defend the left and so on.
I have found 8 step praying mantis to be proffiecent in its fighting capabilities and a well rounded system.

[Tainan Mantis]

PM has a technique called close the door kick. It looks like you are using your foot to close a door.
When doing this kick in fighting it will cause your opponent to pull his front knee toward his rear knee. It looks like the legs are the leaves of an old style Chinese door and he is "closing the door" in order to protect the "family jewels."

In sparring with WC people, they who have done sticky leg practice are very good at warding off this kick

[Yung Apprentice]

??

[MightyB]

I find it interesting that no one has talked about the life and death gates...

[Tainan Mantis]

Is life gates death gates in Chinese which I have never heard of.
Maybe you are talking about 8 HIT-8 NO HIT?
If not, please educate us.
Thank you.

[MightyB]

My knowledge of the Chinese language is severely lacking. I in no way intend to offend people or to start flame wars on this forum.

Initially, I thought that PM is really obscure, but, as I can see by this forum, it's really wide spread. And, with that geographical expansion, you get a diverse set of experiences, thoughts, style, and regional differences.

What I'm commenting on is that I do find it interesting that there isn't anybody talking about life gate or death gate concepts of attack and defense. I don't know what the Cantonese words for those concepts are, and it may be that it's a martial arts concept specific to the HK lineage of 7 star mantis. Quite simply, Life gate defense is when you position yourself on the outside of the attacker's lead arm/attack, and Death gate is when you position yourself on the inside of the attacker's lead arm/attack.

I don't find it wise to make too many claims or to indiscriminently dispense information on the web since I don't really know who's reading this forum. With that thought in mind, please don't be offended if I don't go any deeper into this discussion.

[yingching]

Life gate and death gate are also referred to as Inside and Outside Gate.

[EARTH DRAGON]

what you are reffering to I have already mention, however we use the term doors.

i.e front side and back doors.
gates; would be upper and lower
opening and closing the centerline.

these are most tof the terms we use in 8 step to disect an opponents attack or defense, you see we can use specific techniques to open the centerline while attcking the side door from the lower gate.
with examples like that , there are endless combinations to use to attack any part of the body from any angle with any technique.

[Tainan Mantis]

Mighty B,
No offense taken.

It sounds like you have described what yingching has mentioned, inner and outer gate. But calling inner gate the death gate makes it sound like a bad place to be.
The second move of beng bu partner set puts you in the inner gate with two hands grabbing his one hand. What do you think about that?

But in defense of inner gate being a bad place to be I'm reminded of a short kung fu couplet that we say when learning a certain 2 man exercise.

I walk out door, you walk in
not walk out door, is your death.

Wo dzo why men, ni dzo nei
bu dzo why men, shr wong ran.

[MightyB]

The way that it has been described to me is that it's called death gate because you put yourself at a little more risk than the life gate. A death gate move is more likely to be a striking move, they are faster, but they allow the opponent a slight opportunity for a counter attack, where a life gate maneuver is more controlling and to the outside of the opponents offense putting them in a more awkward position to defend from.

Life and death gate may be the best literal way to translate it to English, but maybe it's not the most correct words if you know what I mean.

That's why I'm so envious of you guys that truly understand Cantonese and Mandarin. My Sifu constantly reinforces the "poems" as he learned them from his father, but, I have a very hard time remembering them. Plus, the literal translations to English aren't as descriptive or expressive to me as they would be to you, because, (I believe that it's out of necessity to keep rival schools from stealing techniques), the Chinese words and characters describing the moves are very abstract. I guess western boxing is the same in that way, because western boxing has a move called a shovel hook. The words "shovel hook" literally bring up a mental picture of a shovel for a garden and and a hook for fishing. Now the strike is actually thrown from a low angle rising like an upper cut but hooked into the floating ribs or liver. Shovel would then describe the action of throwing dirt, and hook describes the angle. That's how I suspect the Chinese descriptions are because literal translations of some moves would be like Tai Mountain Crashes, or Old Man Carrying Fish (I made these up to illustrate my point, they are not real names for moves).

It may be a linguistic thing. When I try to write what a pattern or move is called, I'll have to do it phonetically because I don't know the pinyin translations. What you call "beng bu" sounds phonetically like (bung bo) to me.

I see from your bio that you teach Eight Step Praying Mantis. I don't have much exposure to the different types of Praying Mantis because of where I'm at geographically. Could you describe a little about Eight Step and how it relates to 7 Star?

[MightyB]

I've only been doing 7 star for eight years, so I've only learned Beng Bu as a solo set. My sifu has told me that every pattern can be done as a two man set, but I'm still pretty young in the system. PM is huge, I can't believe the number of sets. It's very humbling.

[nobody]

mightyB...thats actually a very interesting question and ill tell you why. im one of EDs students so i can answer this. 8step is actually an offshoot of 7star. master cheung hwa long(of 7*) took the system, and switched the monkey footwork, with the footwork of bagua zheng. then his student(who became a master of the new mantis) added eagle claw jointlocks and throws. so it is quite similar to sevenstar, because 7star is its predecessor:D

[MightyB]

I've seen a Bagua demonstration once, very cool footwork. A person that's mastered the Bagua stepping would be very difficult to fight against because they are always moving. It looks like it would be good against multiple attackers to.

That's one thing that I really like about PM. It's so eclectic. The Jeet Kune Do people think that they've discovered something new with the blending and integration of multiple styles, but Praying Mantis has been doing that for over 300 years.

Without even seeing it I believe that 8 Step would be extremely effective. We mix a little Eagle Claw into our 7 Star, so I know how effective that combination is, with Bagau footwork, it has to be pretty devastating.

Good Stuff, and thanks for the quick replies,

Mighty B