why would you raise up when you kick?

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

i watched some of the videos linked from the headgear thread and noticed the guys were raising their hight (some even coming up on their toes) when throwing a kick.

i definatley think you lose allot of power by doing this, but what's worse is how vulnerable you leave your ankle. someone kicks that ankle you'll be lucky to have it left unbroken let alone be able to stand on it for the rest of a fight.

why do this?

is this just bad for my style and have some benifits or is this just bad period?

[Xebsball]

I always noticed that from Karate and TKD guys...

In my sytle (as in most CMA probably) we are told to keep the balance foot all in the ground when kicking to avoid losing balance and for beter power.

[JWTAYLOR]

I've always heard of raising up as a big no no in any style. But, if you are really tired, it often creeps back in no matter who you are.

JWT

[Johnny Hot Shot]

Think of it as being sloppy.

[Jaguar Wong]

When kickers raise up, they tend to straighten their support leg out. The last thing I want is to be standing on a "broomstick" if I'm kicking :) I was taught to keep the support foot flat, heel pivoted toward the opponent (all the way or halfway, it don't matter for lower/mid level kicks), and keep the knee slightly bent in order to have a more "responsive" root with your support leg. This is still how I teach kicks.

While sparring, sometimes I do notice when kickers raise up when they throw the kicks, but a lot of times they are not slow, awkward kickers. They're fast, and precise, but even though they may be losing power with that type of technique, I still don't want to be on the recieving end of the kick (it's got enough momentum and power for a KO still), so it's not like I can capitalize on it. I know they may fall on their butt if the kick actually lands solidly, but that's not a gamble I'm willing to make with my skull.

If I'm close enough, I jam 'em, and that always gets the desired balance breaking effect. If I'm hanging out in kicking range, though I don't even bother, even if their technique is considered "flawed" by others. :)

[shaolinboxer]

I have studies with a few Muay Thai instructors and they advised me to raise up on the ball of my supporting foot when roundhouse kicking.

You can be up off of your heel and still rooting into the ground.

[Jaguar Wong]

Yes, but it's harder to maintain your root while supporting your self on the ball of your foot. People tend to straighten their leg out when they raise up. With a lot of practice it can be just as effective (if not more...depends on the kicker), but I guess that's true with all kicks.

Like I said, some see it as flawed, but I see it as different, and it still has speed, accuracy and KO power. It's just different from my style of kicking tha's all. :) That being said, from what I was shown, the leg kicks from muay thai are still flat footed, but you see a lot of support on the ball of the foot for neck kicks (You gotta love the way that looks when it lands :) )

[nightair]

I think that is stupid becuase when you do that you are throwing of your balance. By them lifting if I want to pick them up or simply give them a firm push to thier chest they just did 60% of the job for me.

[JWTAYLOR]

There are more prestigous MT people than me on the board, but I would bet the purpose that you are going on the the ball ofyou foot during the round house is primarily so that you fully rotate your hip. It's impossible to rotate your hip and foot all the way around if your heel is planted.

And maybe they want that little bit of extra height as well. And generally, staying on the balls of your feet makes you more "light on your feet".

JWT

[Metal Fist]

Hey Jaguar, where did you find the cool avatar? I've been looking for some along that line, post link if you don't mind.

[Jaguar Wong]

SuperAction.com (http://www.superaction.com)
It's in the Little Dragon Collection.

There are also some cool designs in the Big Robot, and Supervillain sections as well, but the 108 stuff is where all the martial arts stuff is.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

we learn muithia strikes when we first start at my class and the mt round house is the one my teacher was most adamant about not raising up during.

i think your sacraficing drive through for a little extra snap.

i'm sure different teachers teach different ways within mt, and my sifu is no mt master or anything, but i still don't see the advantage to putting yourself up on a poll like that.

[EARTH DRAGON]

people raise up when kicking to compensate for lack of flexability. If you are flexable ther is no need to try to heighten the kick by raising up on the toe, however if you are trying to kick high the increased reach will help you hit your target, I was taught that is wrong but I was also taught nevver to kick high anyways anything above the waist is asking for trouble and only works in tourneys. here is my shrfu throwing a high kick, but just for show, notice his foot is flat

[Mr. Nemo]

I took a muay thai class or two at my boxing club, and I was taught to go up on my toe for roundhouse kicks only. You go up on the toe because it's easier to spin that way, which gives you extra power.

[qeySuS]

how the hell do you kick with a flat foot? You jump around on the ball of your feet when you sparr how do you lump your foot down flat and do the kick like that? I have no flexability problems but i still do it. Not so much in of course kicks like front kick and sidekick and such, but axe and roundhouse are definetly on the ball of my foot.

[Gargoyle again]

There is a very important reason why we in our art are taught to keep a firm and flat root while kicking and NOT to rise up...telegraphing.

You should be able to throw strong power kicks without committing your upper body into the action or disrupting your stepping or footwork. What this means is that if your opponent's vision is focused on your chest or hands, he will never see your kick coming until it is too late, it will have all of the signs of just being another step or stance shift to his viewpoint.

I do an exercise/drill that is very helpful in this. I throw low/med height kicks (roundhouse, snap, side, etc) while watching myself in a mirror that just displays myself from above the chest. Actually, I use my bathroom medicine-cabinet mirror :D :D . I drill the kicks and also practice balance shifts while watching myself in the mirror until I can detect ZERO head-bob or movements in my shoulders that give away the fact that I'm kicking.

What this has done has given me the ability to throw fast strong kicks with little-to-no telegraphing, and to do so within my normal motion and footwork.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

qeySuS . . there's a differnece between pivoting on the ball of your foot and raising up like a ballerina.

i can see putting more weight on the ball for round houses, but you still don't raise your hight. we were having a discussion about pivots a while back and someone liked a proper pivot to crushing out a cigerette butt.

then again my teacher also likes pukulan allot which is up on the balls of their feet allot . .like boxers. . i just haven't gotten into the style enough to know why. i do know that the style appears to be very linear though . ... the way they move would make it harder to get to the ankle or knee than say a wide round house. with a kick that wide all someone has to do is fall into your ankle when your up on tippietoe and you're going down. at that point it's not going to take any precision or power . .. your ankle will fold and you will say ouch.

it just seems like a bad idea to me.

[rogue]

Excellent kicking technique. (http://www.corysworld.com/movies/funny/guy_getting_kicked_in_balls.mpg)

[rogue]

Seriously though, from what I've seen and felt, keeping the foot flat doesn't seem to add any additional power. My master gets additional power on his side kick for example by driving in with the non-kicking leg. We are taught to never have a straight leg even if the heel is up for a spin or roundhouse.

[Stacey]

well duh, equal and opposite forces. However coming up on the ball of your foot is unstable. If you can kick on a slippery surface, your ok, the question is, can you do that kick and remain standing if they absorb and step forward?

BTW that video was sick. I loved it, that woman probably got paid well for that. And to think that I'm stuck at a clothes store.:rolleyes:

[rogue]

Why is raising the heel unstable? I do it hundreds of times a day without a problem. I do it on carpets, climbing scrabble covered hills, smooth floors, slippery floors, and rarely, if ever have a problem. It's called walking. :)

"the question is, can you do that kick and remain standing if they absorb and step forward? "

Yes, though I'm still working on it. Here's the way it works, if I shoot the side kick in and you start to move back I can use non-kicking leg to drive forward into range again. If you move in and the kick is still moving out of chamber I can still use the non-kicking leg to drive into you and push you back. This takes a lot of bag work and sparring practice to get down, but it's a common technique in my school by the time someone get's to brown belt. I'm an in-fighter stacy and so I've caught quite a few of these.

Also, during sparring I usually fight with my heels slightly raised anyway as it makes moving a bit faster.


BTW, that was no woman that's my wife helping me with my ground fighting skills. :D

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

rouge . .. word on keeping your knee bent even if you raise up.

but what about the vulnerability issues i mentioned earlier?

also i am able to get more power flat footed, but that could just be the way i have personaly evolved because of my style.

[rogue]

If you're talking about the ankle example, if I understand you correctly, that could happen no matter how the foot is planted.

The heel doesn't stay high up after the spin or pivot is completed, though some in my school drop it all the way down, but I like to keep it up and my weight on the balls of the feet. The only real bad I've seen is pivoting on the heel during a kick, the weight is back and people that I've seen use it seem to slip more often.

I think a person get's the most power by what they train.

[rogue]

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