Why the Hardcore Kung Fu Training only about JKD.

[Leonidas]

NO offense, but i didn't even think it was style. Just a philosophy made by an overrated actor (i like Bruce Lee but come on, Best martial artist?) in my opinion. Doesn't every school teach something totally different anyway. I'm not saying anything about the effectiveness of Jeet Kune Do. But wont it be on other styles too. Anyhow thats just my rant for the day

[SifuLMDII]

Hello!

The Hardcore Jeet Kune Do website will be strictly Wing Chun Gung Fu, Jun Fan Gung Fu and Jeet Kune Do! It will be THE website for those interested in Bruce Lee's fighting methods, and will be EXTREMELY in-depth on all things related! It will have it's own discussion forums, it's own merchandise stores, it's own training sections, historical information, Student/Instructor training information and much, much more! The entire website will deal only with Bruce Lee's martial art as it existed in his lifetime, not what it has become as practiced by so many today!

I am the Executive Director/Senior Instructor of the Jun Fan Fighting Arts Association and Jun Fan/Jeet Kune Do International. This new website will house all information on these organizations, memberships and training programs. To see my current websites, please go to http://www.jffaa.8m.com, http://www.junfan.8m.com and http://www.jfjkdscientific.8m.com . The new website will incorporate everything from these websites, plus a WHOLE LOT MORE! If someone is at all interested in Bruce Lee's fighting methods, www.HardcoreJKD.com will be the website for them! For the Bruce Lee/Jun Fan/Jeet Kune Do fanatic, it will be HOME! please take time to check it out when it is completed! I think you will like what you see!

[rogue]

"The Hardcore Jeet Kune Do website will be strictly Wing Chun Gung Fu, Jun Fan Gung Fu and Jeet Kune Do! "

I'm sure the Wing Chun crowd will be happy to once again be reunited with their mother art. :rolleyes:

The guy used to be an idol of mine, but nowI am so d@mn sick of Bruce Lee.

[Leonidas]

Maybe you didn't read my post but I realize whats its about. It's not like we other stylist dont like "Training Hardcore". That was the point............and Wing Chun has nothing to do with Jeet Kune Do except that parts of its moves were ripped off if at all. Some people are mixing Boxing and say.... Brazilian "wrestling" and calling it JKD. Not saying everyone mind you, but like everything today, even the hybrid styles get b*st*rdised.

[SifuLMDII]

Hello Again!

I realize that other methods of martial art enjoy hardcore training! It's just that this sight will be totally dedicated to Bruce Lee's methods!

Wing Chun Gung Fu is a very important part of Jeet Kune Do! In fact, it is the nucleus of the Jeet Kune Do system! Bruce Lee trained in Wing Chun for five years in Hong Kong before leaving for the United States. Bruce Lee's Jun Fan Gung Fu that he taught in Seattle was a modified form of Wing Chun. When Bruce Lee was developing the Jeet Kune Do method, he sent a letter to one of his assistant instructors, saying this his new art would consist of techniques from Wing Chun, boxing and fencing! Now, many of the JKD "concepts" instructors have long abandoned the Wing Chun roots (if they ever knew them at all, that is) but to those of us who continue to train in Bruce Lee's original methods, Wing Chun is VERY IMPORTANT! I have some very close friends who are high level Wing Chun instructors, and they appreciate the emphasis that I place on JKD's Wing Chun roots!

Yes, Wing Chun Gung Fu will be a very important part of this new website! To leave it out would be ignoring the roots of the Jeet Kune Do system! That would be very disrespectful to practitioners of Wing Chun!

[Leonidas]

So humor me. What the h*ll makes JKD different from Wing Chun. It's also funny that you mention disrespect to Wing Chun practitioners. Isn't throwing away more then half their moves and calling it a classical mess disrespectful on Bruce Lee's part. I dont think many Wing Chunners give a rats a-ss about about JKD. Maybe i'm wrong.

[rogue]

Lamar, from what I know about WC, which is very little, is five years enough to fully understand the complete system of WC? And if not then how can WC be considered the core of JKD if Lee wasn't fully versed in it.

Thanks in advance Lamar.

[SifuLMDII]

Hello Again Guys!

It's been a long day, and I'm about to crash, so this will be my last post for the evening!

No, I would not think that five years would be enough for someone to complete their wing chun training! But, Bruce Lee did learn enough Wing Chun to know that it was the way that he wanted to fight! It was his encounter with another gung fu man in Oakland that caused him to re-structure what he was doing! The end result was Jeet Kune Do! The reason that I say that Wing Chun is the nucleus of Jeet Kune Do is because we use the vertical fist punching structure, centerline theory, four corner defense, lin sil die dar, sticking hands, trapping hands and much, much more! We also practice the Sil Lim Tao form daily, and the mook jong is one of our most important training aids! Bruce Lee had great respect for the Wing Chun system, and even stated so publicly many times right up until the time he died! He was very proud of his Wing Chun background!

Now, please keep in mind that all Jeet Kune Do practitioners do not feel the way that I do about this. Especially those who are on the "JKD concepts" side of the fence! My approach to JKD is formed by my training experience with eighteen of Bruce Lee's original First Generation students, and Full Instructor certification from five of them. I have trained in the martial arts for thirty-four years, with twenty-four of those years being nothing but Jun Fan Gung Fu and Jeet Kune Do (and some supplementary Wing Chun training of course)!

OK guys, I'm outta here! Stay well and train hard!

[rogue]

Glad to see you're still even tempered Lamar. I think you and Big Sean are the most infuriating to disagree with since it's hard to get a rise out of you two. :)

OK now for the $64,000 question, if WC is so important to your JKD, why not fully study WC? Wouldn't complete mastery of your systems core art make your system that much better?

[Sharky]

LOL watchman.

[SifuLMDII]

Hello Rogue!

Not necessarily! The elements that we need from Wing Chun are there! We train them hard and often! Remember though, while you are training one thing, something else is being neglected! :( We prefer to keep our training as well rounded as possible! Wing Chun elements still compose the bulk of our training. If I were not a JKD man, I would definitely be a Wing Chun man! No offense intended toward my Wing Chun brothers, of course!

And by the way, it's best to remain even tempered on these forums! It's not as if you can reach out and grab the person who has offended you anyway! If I could, man would I have some fun! LOL! My new saying about those who are trouble makers on forums is: "Let the children play, they'll come across a turd in their sandbox sooner or later!" :eek:

[Jeff Liboiron]

What's with all the !? QUIT YELLING FOR CHRIST SAKES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm sick of Bruce Lee to

[rogue]

No problem Watchman, it's a question I had when I was in JKD. One thing our JKD friends should be clear about is that their art is not made up of WC, western boxing, fencing, savate and what ever else is currently on the list, but parts of those arts not the complete art. I've noticed that JKD seems to have a big umbrella for what makes up the art but is almost dismissive about those that would master those arts in full.

Lamar, I've had "problems" with the attitudes of many JKD folks, since you have always been civil on the JKD forum maybe you could answer some questions and clarify these two statements?

"Not necessarily! The elements that we need from Wing Chun are there! We train them hard and often!"
Which elements? Which parts of WC, or fencing or western boxing, are also discarded?

"Remember though, while you are training one thing, something else is being neglected! We prefer to keep our training as well rounded as possible!"
While I agree fully with your first sentence the second one can get you into hot water ;). It implies that by studying only WC, and not JKD, that the WC fighter, or any other fighter, would not be as well rounded. I'm guessing this goes for the TKD, Shorin-ryu, PM and all the rest? Now this is the sort of hubris that drove me away from JKD.

I also have noticed that many JKD people are either shaving their heads or wearing their hair very short, is this a reaction to many WC people having a preference for mullets? :confused:

Please note that when I say WC I should also include any other arts that makes up JKD. Also when I say JKD I'm not aiming at Lamar but at those I've met in my travels. And yes I do have a chip on my shoulder when it comes to JKD :D.

[old jong]

One question could be: How can you chose to discard something as "useless" or can you chose something as "the core" of a system when you have only a fragmented knowledge of the system in the first place?
An other question would be: If....Bruce Lee had won his fight with that chinese sifu in the first place,could it be possible that he might have continued his studies of wing chun instead of losing all confidence in it?

[SifuLMDII]

Hello Again Rogue!

What I meant when I said well rounded is this:

Footwork & Mobility
Stances
Defensive Movements
Evasive Tactics
Hand Techniques
Leg Techniques
Body Techniques
Combinations
Feints/Fakes
Entering Methods
Bruce Lee's Five Ways of Attack
Sticking Hands
Trapping Hands
Holds
Throws
Takedowns
Chokes/Strangles

NOT any particular form of fighting. Just necessary fighting skills! This has absolutely nothing to do with any arts outside of Jun Fan/Jeet Kune Do. As for what Bruce Lee discarded, it is easier for me to tell you what he kept, as these are the things that I know for sure!

I have already mentioned in another post what we use from wing chun. From boxing we use certain body mechanics, footwork, evasive tactics, the cross, hook, uppercut and shovel hook. from fencing Bruce Lee took some footwork, power side forward, defensive skills and attack strategies. The Jeet Kune Do fighting stance has mixed elements from all three arts. The most important aspect of this mix, however, is the unique way that Bruce Lee combined everything so that it all fits together. :)

This is really all that I have to say about this, because, as you said earlier, I don't really get "heated" over all of this because I am pretty "even tempered"! When I am talking to a wall, I can only talk for so long before I eventually get bored if you catch my drift here! After all, I started into this just to simply answer a question, not write a book! I have written two of those already! :D

[rogue]

OJ, while I know where you got the "useless" thing from let's remember that Lamar didn't say it.

I've been wondering if those of us that still practice what are considered traditional arts are just practicing them so others can come and pick at them when they need something new. :D What should be happening is that we should strive to master our traditional arts, but test them against other systems, add to them if something is lacking and to always move them forward to keep them relevent.

PS OJ. I'm still steamed at your little TKD remark on the WC forum, pal! :mad: :p

[rogue]

I need to type faster Lamar! :)

I've looked at your list and didn't find anything that is on it that is missing from most traditional karate and TKD (if a 50 year old art can be traditional). Well outside of Bruce Lee's Five Ways of Attack, which we probably have anyway but under different names.

Sorry if you think you're talking to a wall but that's what it's also like asking many a JKD person a valid question. Thankfully you didn't resort to quoting from the Tao of JKD, mention the Navy SEALS or streetfighters. :)

[SifuLMDII]

Hi Rogue!

Good one, and believe me, I certainly know what you mean! I recently posted on another forum about just that subject! I'm sure that raised a few eyebrows! :D

I tend to be more direct and personal with my responses! I too get sick and tired of all of the "philosophers" out there who want to constantly quote this person and that person! I say just be yourself! Say what you feel! Know what I mean? ;)

By the way, if you'd like to read that post, here it is:

Hello Everyone!

I don't mean to step on anyone's toes here, and if I do, OH WELL! LOL! Due to a certain "liberating" process that I have gone through in the past few weeks, I am now free to say EXACTLY what I want to say about Jun Fan Gung Fu and Jeet Kune Do! You can take it or leave it, BUT IT IS THE TRUTH!

Jun Fan Gung Fu was the art that Bruce Lee taught in the Seattle, Washington kwoon, where he was assisted by Taky Kimura. Jun Fan Gung Fu consists primarily of Wing Chun Gung Fu (probably about 85%-90%) with a few elements from other gung fu systems (10%-15%). Bruce Lee spent five years in Hong Kong learning the Wing Chun system from some of it's best fighters! He
chose Wing Chun because of it's raw street effectiveness!

During the Oakland period, Bruce Lee had an encounter with another Chinese martial artist, Wong Jak Man, of the My Jong Law Horn Kuen system of gung fu. Although Bruce Lee won the fight, he was unusually tired and winded when it was over! He felt that it had taken him much too long to get the better of his challenger! This was due to a failure on his part to immediately adjust to the methods of his opponent! This caused him to take more of an interest in physical fitness, as well as closely re-examine his art of Jun Fan Gung Fu. He decided that he needed more versatility in his tools and his footwork needed to change to favor more mobility. During this time he composed a letter, saying that he was inventing a new system of fighting that would consist of Wing Chun gung fu, boxing and fencing. This new system was Jeet Kune Do, the "Way of The Intercepting Fist".

During the L. A. Chinatown period, Jeet Kune Do continued to develop. YES, there was a definite curriculum, and YES, the students were required to learn certain things! The kwoon was still called the Jun Fan Gung Fu Institute, but in Dan Inosanto's own words, what was being taught was Jeet Kune Do! Back then, there was no such thing as Jeet Kune Do "concepts", nor did Bruce Lee himself ever use the term "concepts" to describe his method of fighting! All terminology used in Jeet Kune Do was Chinese in Bruce Lee's lifetime, and the instructor was referred to as Sifu!

There is much talk today about Bruce Lee researching other methods of combat. Contrary to a popular way of thinking these days, he was not looking for things to add to his method. He was looking at other arts so that he could develop counters against their best techniques using his Jeet Kune Do! He was well known for using certain students with particular attributes to bring out his own attributes and abilities. He did not care much for teaching, but instead preferred to train himself to higher skill
levels!

Much of his writing was geared toward trying to free other martial artists from the bondage and set patterns of what they were "locked" into! The famous "Liberate Yourself From Classical Karate" article was re-written about a dozen or so times before he finally arrived at the version that appeared in the magazine. I have that original magazine! I walked into the newsstand the day it came out and bought it! So as you can see, I've had plenty of time to read, re-read and read it again! I know what it means,
and I know exactly where Bruce Lee was coming from with what he was saying! It has become painfully obvious to me that most people still don't have a clue!

One thing that most peole fail to realize is that most of the things that have been published as Bruce Lee's writings are actually just notes that he took from various other publications. This has recently been proven, and will be brought into the light by a book that is being written even as I type this! Many people are going to be shocked when they find out just how much of the material published as Bruce Lee's writings were not actually his at all, but notes taken from other sources! The stuff that has been published as his writings was never intended for publication! Too many people take things out of context based on the importance they place on certain writings! Most of these people are going to feel like idiots when they find all of this out! Most of what was in the Tao of Jeet Kune Do would have never been published had Bruce Lee lived! IT WAS HIS NOTES! NOTHING MORE, NOTHING LESS!

That's why I get so sick and tired of reading all of this philosophical stuff posted on the forums by so many people to try and back up their horribly mis-conceived notions as to what Jeet Kune Do is! Jeet Kune Do is a highly scientific method of self defense, based on highly effective, solid scientific principles that will remain constant from now until the end of time! There is a JKD way to stand (the bai jong position), there is specific JKD footwork and there are specific JKD techniques (punching, striking, kicking, defending, trapping). There is a specific progression to the training! The bottom line is, IF YOU ARE NOT DOING THESE THINGS, THEN YOU ARE NOT DOING JEET KUNE DO! It's just that simple!

Now, go soak your feet and get the swelling out of those toes! That's all I have to say for now! Any comments?

[rogue]

Are you nuts!:eek: That kind of talk will get you burned at the JKD stake. :D That ranks up there with my statement that "Inosanto is the martial artists Lee wished he was". Considering that Lee is still dead and Dan is still mastering systems I was surprised to catch so much flack. LOL

I find it funny that many JKDers have created their own classical mess from that book.

[jimmy23]

Ok, how can i ask this and not seem like Im challenging?

You have done a very good job here of explaining where you are coming from, and exactly how you see things. Very good, and educational.

My question is, how do view MMA type stylists who call themselves JKD? At some fights here recently there were 3 guys who were identified as JKD stylists. Two of them were matched against superior opponents but fought well, the third fought a very even fight against a tough former belt holder, and lost a close decision. I was impressed with these guys, they had a unique style and were very game fighters.

And, I see on your profile that your in Burmingham, January 12 we are having some MMA fights in Biloxi Mississippi at the President Casino. If you can, you should come and watch, youll enjoy it!

[SifuLMDII]

Hi Jimmy!

Thanks for your comments, and thanks for the invitation, but I have no interest whatsoever in sport/competition application of Bruce Lee's methods! There might be a few JKD guys out there who fight in various events, but those are probably JKD "concept" practitioners. Most of the Jun Fan/JKD guys that I know are interested strictly in self defense application of the art! I have a big guy training with me right now who is into the NHB stuff, and he competes, but he respects me for my self defense knowledge and ability, plus he appreciates the attributes developed in JF/JKD training. We have a simple understanding. When he comes to me, he is here for JF/JKD! He leaves the other stuff at the door when he enters!

[shaolinboxer]

Nice to see that Jeet Kune Do is back to being a style. It almost escaped!

I do not doubt your skill sir, but I doubt your proclaimations.

I believe you are leading us right back to that fabled finger pointing at the moon.

[old jong]

Tell me,what is that tkd comment I made that got you so steamming?...:confused: :confused: :p
I'm looking for it but I cant find it!

[rogue]

"Facing is definitively an important part of the system.It does not means to be stupidly rigid but to have a structure that allows the delivery of techniques offensives and defensives. If we dont care about it,why not take up TKD or something !"

May I take it that in TKD we don't care about the subject? :mad: :p :confused: :eek: :D :D

OK so we really don't, we're more concerned about being able to do damage to an opponent no matter where he is in relation to where we're facing. At least that's the theory. ;)

[old jong]

What I really meaned in that post was : If someone in wing chun does not understand or like the way things should be done (in wing chun,you paranoïd!)...He should be looking in some art who is different (like TKD,my paranoïd friend!)I' was not passing a jugement on TKD....(Are all TKD guys so paranoïd?)...I was only pointing a difference in stance and body structure philosophy between two different ways of "facing" an opponent.
I hope it clears things up between us my dear and paranoïd friend!:D

[Ginger Fist]

--b sure 2 mention the fact that jun fan took his fencing attributes from a european model ... that model was destroyed by the spanish fencers who used non-linear footwork 4 entering ...
set the record clear on jun fan's philosophy while u r at it ... plagiarized in whole from j. krisnmurti ... beside a shi*tty & confused attitude just ? do u jkd people claim 2 b urs alone?

[rogue]

I've wondered why Lee used sport fencing and not the Spanish school style where the non-live hand was used to handle a cloak, parrying-dagger, another sword or even to grab the opponents wrist or blade. Of course this would mean being more square to the opponent so that both weapons could be deployed.

PS OJ. Aplology accepted, and I am NOT PARANOID. I have to go, I think they're watching me.:(

[apoweyn]

his brother was a competitive fencer, yeah?

i thought the fencing connection was sort of an association of opportunity. he did wing chun. his brother fenced. he noticed some parallels. badda bing...


stuart b.

[JasBourne]

I can appreciate what you're trying to do, SifuLMDII, but as for myself, I would be very disappointed if I went to a website calling itself "Hardcore KungFu" and found only JKD there. The term implies a broad cross-section of Chinese Martial Arts, and to only have JKD implies very strongly that JKD is the only hardcore CMA, or 'kungfu' as we like to say in the west.

In other words, without meaning to, you're putting down everything that is not JKD. The ommissions say "this is not hardcore, only JKD is hardcore".

Just an observation from someone who does not practice JKD, but does practice hardcore kung-fu.

[Ginger Fist]

i thought the fencing connection was sort of an association of opportunity. he did wing chun. his brother fenced. he noticed some parallels. badda bing...

--jun fan took his lunge step entry footwork directly from foil fencing. his rule 4 front foot plant & strike is a good ex. he was wrong about most training needs ... constantly over trained ... his weight work out was a joke ... movie myths live on

[Ginger Fist]

Of course this would mean being more square to the opponent so that both weapons could be deployed.

--since jun fan took ?ever from wing chun doubt being square was a problem ... he just fu(ked up ... again

[prana]

rogue

it is so good to see that you share your knowledge with us, instead of just humour :)

[rogue]

Well Prana sometimes I just slip up. Sadly for me, my well of smarts just ran dry, sadly for everyone else I found a whole web page dedicated to the saying of my favorite cartoon, Pinky and the Brain.

Brain: Pinky, Are you pondering what I'm pondering?
Pinky: I think so, Brain, but this time, you put the trousers on the chimp.

AND

Brain: Pinky, Are you pondering what I'm pondering?
P: I think so, but what if the chicken won't wear the nylons?

I love that stuff! :D

[Leonidas]

................and through it all, the question still wasn't answered. I guess its your site so your choice of style(s). Life goes on.

[apoweyn]

ginger fist,

makes sense. and i assume that the 'connection' he saw between fencing and wing chun had a lot to do with the centerline theory prevalent in both. while i've fenced a bit, i don't know that much about it. but my impression is that competitive fencing is more focused on the centerline than some of the older schools of fencing might be. so drawing from foil might have made more sense to bruce lee than drawing from an older school.

as to bruce lee's worth on the whole, i try to be realistic about it. i do believe that he made an undeniable impact. but i also agree wholeheartedly with you that his ideas were not new. you mentioned Krishnamurti in another post. certainly, bruce's ideas were strongly shaped by that man. and by daoism. and various other sources. i think he was fairly open about this, but the nature of celebrity is that we gloss over things like that.

i don't know. he was a man. in some ways, exceptional. in others, just as daft as the rest of us.


stuart b.

p.s. no disrespect to lamar or his style, but i've always been very impressed with dan inosanto myself.

[Ginger Fist]

i assume that the 'connection' he saw between fencing and wing chun had a lot to do with the centerline theory prevalent in both.

--sectioning the body into quadrants is old as dirt ... found almost everywhere

while i've fenced a bit, i don't know that much about it. but my impression is that competitive fencing is more focused on the centerline than some of the older schools of fencing might be.

--u could be right ... jl tl is complete as is ... no need to look around

so drawing from foil might have made more sense to bruce lee than drawing from an older school.

--only his ghost knows 4 sure

as to bruce lee's worth on the whole, i try to be realistic about it. i do believe that he made an undeniable impact.

--no doubt

but i also agree wholeheartedly with you that his ideas were not new.

--it's not the lack of novelty ... most of his training stuff was wrong

[red5angel]

Well SifuLMDII, it looke like you have a good attitude towards JKD, thats good. I am a WC paractitioner myself but have no problem acknowledging JKD as a martial art that is effective, and like all arts it is only as effective as the person who is using it. Some would say that JKD is not a real style because it has many concepts from many other arts, or a few anyway, but most arts do, and that is how most arts get started. Someone becomes disenchanted or sees something that can be improved upon, in thier opinion, and makes some changes. Some do it for greed, or jealousy or what have you.
I believe that Bruce Lees intentions were pure, he was looking for a "better" way to fight, and for him, he may have found that. I would however like to point out two things that many people skim over, the fact that Bruce Lee did have some intensive martial arts training with some pretty good instructors! He also spent most of his life studying and trying to understand the martial arts and fighting, and I dont mean going to every practice, doing some stuff on the weekends and reading on his lunch hour, I mean it became his life. When he decided to design his own way of fighting, or a better word would be adapt, he had a pretty good understanding and a pretty good background in it already, and was increasing that knowledge daily. I admire him for his drive and his passion. I stick with WC because I see no holes, but can see JKD has its own merits and its own weaknesses.
The other thing many people sort of forget about styles of martial arts are that most martial arts are supposed to evolve and be adapted by each and every user. My sifu said to me when I asked him about proper WC stance, that all of our stances,a lthough we drive towards the same goals, will look different, because we are built differently, we have different things that afect the way we do our stance. This is the essence of any style. You take what you learn and you adapt it to your body. If I am not so fast, I should learn to stick to shorter range strikes, If I have fast legs, why not use them?
I believe that part of what Mr Lee was trying to get at with JKD was this ideal, that whatever style you practice, you need to at some point make it your own. This is what I believe gives rise to rivalry, especially within styles. Big and tall learns that if he uses his reach a certain way, it works really well for him so he adapts. When he starts to teach, he teaches it the way it works for him, doing things a tad differently than all the other guys, some people see this as a problem. I see classical instruction as the way to a foundation, sort of like, all houses are built the same way, with similar materials, but then you decorate it and fill it the way you want it to look. In a way that is much more comfortable for you.

Sorry about the long rant!

Red5angel

[apoweyn]

ginger fist,

eskrima doesn't focus on the centerline that way though, for example. i think there is a strong similarity in wing chun and fencing thought. and perhaps, as you suggest, the thoughts of a lot of other schools.

that's one way in which i do believe bruce should be acknowledged. there were common themes running through a lot of arts. and he was instrumental in making us look at that idea (not for the first time, mind you) at a time when many westerners may have been concentrating more on the differences between styles. getting wrapped up in the pomp and circumstance rather than the underlying truth.

not the first to think of it. certainly not the last. but instrumental, all the same. and who's to say to what degree many of us would have done so had he not come along. good chance we would have. good chance we wouldn't. depends on the people involved, i suppose.

as for his practice being flat out wrong, i'm not touching that. i don't believe it. but since i wasn't there, i'm not going to speculate. enough to say that, for the most part, i agree with you. just not on that particular count.


stuart b.

[jimmy23]

Red5angel, great post, and very true.

BTW Leonidas, I like that screen name, it was one of the stories that inspired me as a youth.

[SifuLMDII]

Hello!

The name of the web site is Hardcore Jeet Kune Do, not "Hardcore Kung Fu"! If you were lead to believe otherwise, I'm sorry! I have trained in martial arts for thirty-four years of my life, and believe me, I certainly know that there is "hardcore" training in every martial art! It's just that this site will be entirely dedicated to Bruce Lee's teaching, training and fighting methods, therefore Hardcore Jeet Kune Do! OK?

[Ginger Fist]

eskrima doesn't focus on the centerline that way though, for example.

--the numbered angles r denoted from a central axis model ... care 2 explain?

i think there is a strong similarity in wing chun and fencing thought. and perhaps, as you suggest, the thoughts of a lot of other schools.

--old as dirt ... strike where a person lives

that's one way in which i do believe bruce should be acknowledged. there were common themes running through a lot of arts. . . at a time when many westerners may have been concentrating more on the differences between styles. getting wrapped up in the pomp and circumstance rather than the underlying truth.

--blame the japs ... post ww2 sports karate drive ... blame american's ... just can't wait to dabble in the next great thingamagig ... hippies died off ... new agers were infants ... setting was right

good chance we would have. good chance we wouldn't. depends on the people involved, i suppose.

--wouldn't have made sh*it difference to me ... wouldn't have mattered to many others ... underground ... things are smokin'

as for his practice being flat out wrong, i'm not touching that.

--good thing ... he was all screwed up

i don't believe it. but since i wasn't there, i'm not going to speculate. enough to say that, for the most part, i agree with you. just not on that particular count.

--read his books & then run his training methods against ? school boys learn in college ... sports science ... or run his ways against tcma ways (centuries of validation) ... doesn't matter ... he's dead & people do ? they want no matter ?

[apoweyn]

ginger fist,

the numbered angles don't <i>focus</i> on the centerline though. most systems have between 9 and 12 angles. Perhaps between 1 and 3 of them are thrusts to the centerline (based on the four or five numbering systems i've seen: two from different schools of doce pares, one from dan inosanto, and one from floro villabrille).

obviously, any system is going to acknowledge a centerline. and you're right that many, many systems think in terms of sectoring the targets (quadrants, in your example). but my point was that wing chun and fencing both seem to focus strongly on occupying that straight line between combatants. off the top of my head, i'd imagine that the same could be said of xingyi. other styles, too, i'm certain.

in any event, my argument was not that this attribute is unique to those two styles. only that it was a thread of commonality in two styles that, through circumstance, bruce lee was exposed to.


stuart b.

[DragonzRage]

Greetings Sifu Davis. I'm a JKD practitioner from Los Angeles. I understand that you stay completely faithful to Sijo Lee's original teachings in your training/teaching of JKD. I was curious about one thing though. Do you train in any other methods to build attributes that JFJKD technique may lack>? thanx in advance.

[SifuLMDII]

Hello DragonzRage!

All that I currently train in is Jun Fan Gung Fu and Jeet Kune Do, along with a healthy dose of Wing Chun Gung Fu to constantly reinforce my structure. I have not found anything "lacking", nor have I felt that I really need anything else! Before I trained exclusively in Jun Fan/Jeet Kune Do, I cross trained in Northern Shaolin Gung Fu, Ed Parker's American Kenpo Karate, Filipino Kali and Kuntaw, Wu Wei Gung Fu, Shin Pao Chuan Gung Fu, Tae Kwon Do and Tang Soo Do! It was when I trained in those arts that I felt "incomplete"! I knew that I had found my martial arts home when I started training in Jun Fan/Jeet Kune Do! Everything just "clicked" and things fell right into place! I don't practice any of those other arts now, nor do I ever intend to go back to them!

[wufupaul]

Nice to see you here, Sifu Davis. I've been reading your magazine articles for years, good stuff.

[Ryu]

*Ring Ring Ring... Ring Ring Ring...Ring Ring Ring*

Ryu: :mad: come on, Bruce! Pick up the phone!

*ring ring ring....ring ring ring*

Ryu: I know you're there! Come on! Pick up. Pick up pick up pick up pick up

*ring ring ring*

*ring ring ring*

Ryu: :D Don't worry guys, I'll stay on the line until I get his answers for ya!







In all seriousness, why hate a deceased man because of what others have made him into? I don't think there is much that is more unfair than that. I don't do any WC at all, and I don't trap or straigtblast. I box and grapple, and I consider what I do Jeet Kune Do. In fact I could name it that (formally) if I wished.
So relax. :)

Ryu

[SifuLMDII]

To wufupaul!

Thanks for the welcome! I'm glad that you enjoyed my articles! I am currently writing for Xin Combat (New Combat) magazine in Hong Kong. I will have articles on Jun Fan Gung Fu/Jeet Kune Do in every issue from now on! I am also working on a new book to be published in Hong Kong. Do you have my first book, "Jun Fan/Jeet Kune Do Scientific Streetfighting"? I have another book coming out in February titled "Jeet Kune Do Hardcore Training & Strategies Guide". By the way, I also have my own magazine now, titled Hardcore Jeet Kune Do! It is a subscription only publication. Let me know if you are interested, and I'll post subscription information! Anyway, thanks again for the welcome and I hope to hear from you often!

To Ryu!

NO! What you are doing is NOT Jeet Kune Do, and you shouldn't call it that! You MIGHT be doing what is referred to as "JKD concepts"! You can say whatever you like, but it IS NOT Jeet Kune Do! It is your kind of posts that lead people to believe that one can just do anything they want and call it Jeet Kune Do! THAT IS WRONG! Jeet Kune Do is not just a smorgasboard of "everything but the kitchen sink", like some seem to believe! Also, I am very serious about what I do, and your smarta** attitude doesn't get it with me! I've been in this art for twenty-four years, and was researching it long before that, so believe me when I say that I know what Jeet Kune Do is! Your severe lack of respect does not impress me!

[Ryu]

Pardon me, Mr. Davis, but I do not take well to being talked to like that especially when one so obviously misunderstands my post.

I am not saying that JKD is a smorgesborge of techniques, and yes I am a certified instructor in JKD concepts under Paul Vunak. So if I so wish, I will call what I do whatever I like. The blood, sweat, and pain I have gone through with true "hardcore" training is something I hold dear.

I was telling the people on this board that to "bash" someone like Bruce (who did what he did because of the beauty of self-expression, efficiency, and personal love) just because some people make him an "idol" is foolish.
I will have you know, sir, that on this board I am ANYTHING but a "smartA SS" as you have so ignorantly called me.
If there is one person who enjoys Bruce's thoughts, dreams, and martial art it would be me. I do not know what you "think" I was trying to say in that post, but you have greatly misunderstood.
Yes, I am a JKD concepts man. Yes I have rank in the art, and yes I am a hardcore trainer. I do not trap, and I do not do wing chun. I am a boxing/grappling man who trains in Brazilian jiu-jitsu, judo, and kickboxing.
What I do is not what you do, and what you do is not what I do.
If Bruce were alive, I think he would roll his eyes at this entire discussion.
I have heard and read about you in a lot of magazines, and I am disappointed in how you have reacted here. ESPECIALLY since I am defending Bruce and JKD (or JKD concepts whatever the hell that means)
Such political bickering is the exact reason JKD is in the state it is in.

Thank you for putting me in a rather bad mood.
It won't last for more than 10 minutes, but it still is rather annoying.

Goodnight sir, please try to understand the post before you respond with insulting, ridiculing, and downright childish words.

Ryu

[jon]

In defence of Ryu, Im just going to post the last entry in Bruce Lee's own book "Tao of Jeet Kune Do".

"If people say Jeet Kune Do is different from 'this' or from 'that', then let the name of Jeet Kune Do be wiped out, for that is what it is JUST A NAME. Please don't fuss over it."

Now I could have sworn that what Ryu does is in no way contry to this statement and I would say your reply certainly was.
Judging this quote comes from Bruce Lee the creator of Jeet Kune Do, the same man your pertaining to be teaching the methods of. Tell me who was in the wrong?

[rubthebuddha]

ryu,

if it makes you feel any better, this weekend i was hanging out with the pals, and every single joke we had came back to some "sticky buns" (cinammon rolls) one of the guys had bought. as funny as the jokes were, i kept thinking of your battles as the courageous fistibuns, and i laughed even harder.

i know it wasn't intentional, but thanks for the grins. :D

[Fish of Fury]

it often happens that people perceive things or people to be something other than what they are...

...i guess we all just need to be a bit less perceptive

don't worry Ryu
in with the good air, out with the bad air
empty boats, empty boats
(etc.):)

[rogue]

Lamar,
So you can throw around the name Wing Chun, an art that the founder of your art never mastered, but you get ticked off at Ryu for saying he does JKD?

Thanks for reminding me why I thought so many JKD guys I've trained with came across as hypocrites, because they are.

:rolleyes:

[Water Dragon]

http://students.ou.edu/C/Fraser.C.Conrad-1/Remo.jpg

[SifuLMDII]

Thanks Guys!

For reminding me why I quit coming to this forum years ago in the first place! In case you didn't know, I used to be the Moderator of the Jeet Kune Do forum! I finally gave it up because of the "anything goes as Jeet Kune Do" attitude carried on by so many who were posting on the forum! It is posts like these that let me know that there is little hope for some people EVER understanding what Bruce Lee's martial art is really about! I am not real big on constantly arguing with people about this, so why can't we just agree to disagree, get on with life and get along! OK?

To Ryu:

I apologize for jumping down your throat like I did! Maybe I did misunderstand where you were coming from with the Bruce/phone thing! It just seemed awfully disrespectful to me! Also, I have done nothing "ignorantly", as there is nothing "ignorant" about me! You have to understand where I am coming from here, too, you know! I have spent over half of my life researching and training in Bruce Lee's fighting methods. I have a guy training with me now who also studies boxing and jiu jitsu! He recently started training with me because he realizes that what he is already doing is NOT Jeet Kune Do! He wanted to learn about what Bruce Lee was actually doing! He clearly sees a difference, and there is one! A BIG DIFFERENCE!

To rogue:

I am not a hypocrite! FAR FROM IT! I stick to my guns no matter what! That NEVER changes! Hypocrites say one thing and do another! I always do exactly what I say I will do! I believe in my art and I will stand up for it anytime, anywhere! What is wrong with that? I would expect the same from you or anyone else who believes in what they are doing!

To jon:

Once again, here we go with someone quoting philosophisms and taking the meaning way out of context! If Bruce Lee had lived, the Tao of Jeet Kune Do, if even published, would have been DRASTICALLY different from what we have today! Also, that statement that you quoted did not say what JKD is, it just said that he doesn't want people fussing over it! When this was written, he was still with us! Large and in charge, as the saying goes! He was here to clearly show us exactly what Jeet Kune do was, therefore no need to fuss over anything, as the proof was right before you! Now that he is not with us, it is as if fifty different players tried to take the same ball and run in different directions with it! That just doesn't work!

[jimmy23]

as a mixed martial artist, I am laughing at the "classical mess" popping up in JKD, very funny

[Ryu]

Mr. Davis,
It's okay. I apologize too for getting angry. The Bruce phone call thing is kind of a running gag on this forum that I started. It basically says that one shouldn't insult Bruce for petty matters, or he said/she said type arguments. It really wasn't meant to be disrespectful at all. Bruce is a man I will always have respect for.
I do understand where you are coming from considering how long you have devoted yourself to what you do. And I do apologize for calling you ignorant.
Thank you for you apology as well. It's accepted, and we'll just move on. :)

Thanks

Ryu

[Ryu]

For all you guys who supported me, and came to my defense.

Thank you. :)

Ryu

[myosimka]

SifuLMDII



On Ryu-Vunak is not my cup of tea either but I recognize his validity as did Inosanto so if one of his certified instructors is calling what he does JKD then so be it. It's not exactly the same JKD you practice but if ever I went into an art where the way that one instructor did it was the only way, I'd bail. And personally, rereading the posts, Ryu had a sense of humor while you were downright nasty to him.

On Rogue-hypocrisy is not just being inconsistent in your own actions. His point was you wished to hold people to a standard of behavior in reference to respect for the name of the art that you were not demonstrating.

On Jon, you can argue it would have been different if Bruce had lived. I agree. The point is I don't know how it would have been different whereas you claim to. And he didn't live so if we are to follow what Lee taught which is the big sticking point for many JKD instructors then what better source do we have than his writings/quotes? And whether you agree with the quote, that is what he said. You want to find a contradictory quote and say, "See, he retracted that." Great!!


I do not intend to be disrespectful to you but I I believe that there is a certain validity to the JKD concepts argument. And it's not like they stole the name. The big names in that camp were certified by Lee's students as well. So please show that camp the same respect that you ask people show of you. Obviously someone qualified thought what they were doing WAS Jeet Kune Do.

Politics has reared its ugly head and things are torn. Just what he seemed to fear based on Jon's quote.

[Rolling Elbow]

Don't mistake the exclamation points as yelling! This sifu sounds rather optimistic and encouraging! He really sounds like he enjoys and loves training! Bruce Lee is awesome! I was told by my hardcore bad tempered JKD friend that if I said anything bad about Bruce or Dan Inosanto, my face would be introduced to his fists! O yes..and i am a ninja and very excited about being one too! And of course, hardcore training is the core and nucleus of JKD along with techniques that not only work..but look COOL! :) Wy fight for real when you can look as cool as they do fighting in the movies!

I'm all done!

[mun hung]

Funny. I went to visit a JKD school a few weeks a go and saw not a tiny bit of Wing Chun. What I saw was boxing, Arnis, and Thai boxing. I was wondering about the "nucleus" myself. What I did witness was pure comedy. A bunch of guy's dancing around like Bruce did in the movies. Most did'nt know how to make a fist. What bothered me most was the eerie tribal drum playing on tape the entire time of the class. What is up with that??? I just know Bruce wanted this!

Maybe JKD guys should all take up a few years of Wing Chun first the way that Bruce did and perhaps it might give them a better idea of what Bruce was thinking. Strange that I should say this because we actually have a good bit of ex-JKDers joining our school lately.

As far as Bruce discarding elements of WC that did'nt work for him - well, maybe those very same elements work for other people who study/studied Wing Chun. Remember, it was only "Bruce's" interpretation of Wing Chun that brought him to the JKD conclusion.

Coming from a "hardcore" Wing Chun man - I hope I have'nt insulted anyone here. Just my coupla cents worth.

[red5angel]

Hey Mun Hung!

I would have to say that I agree with you here. We have a a few JKD guys who decided to go back to learna little WC before continuing with JKD and never went back!
I have been looking into the whole Bruce Lee/Wing Chun mystery. I have a passion for both, Wing chun is an awesome system, for me. Bruce Lee was a talented man, even his contemporaries will admit this. But......
I was curious as to why Bruce would have decided to dump WC ad its Classical mess for a new system he would design and this is what I have come up with so far:

Bruce Lee had a huge ego! Now I like his stuff, his movies are classics, and he did a lot (some say a lot of damage) for kung fus public image. But he was ****y, he boasted alot about his own skill and ability. It would seem he also had some reason too for he was a natural at fighting.
He was obsessive. He became obsessed with fighting, the art of fighting, getting in shape for fighting, improving fighting, etc....It was his life through and through.
These two things can be a pretty strong mixture, but then mix in the fight with Wong Jack Man(sp?) and you have an explosive combination. now there is a lot of debate around this fight, and only two people will ever really know what happened exactly, but there is some convincing evidence to show that Bruce didn't do quite as well as some think he did. I am starting to believe this for a few reasons...
Both were younger men, Bruce was pretty young and had the ego and passion to make him a little head strong, overconfident, and possibly easy to anger if things didn't go the way they should. We all have a little of this in us and we can all understand this.
now he gets into this fight, that for him is very serious, because fighting is a very serious thing for him.
when he met someone who was his match, and who played by his own rules, he may have done worse then he has or had expected. This would frustrate and possible demoralize anyone enough to go looking somewhere else. now add ego and obsession to that.......

[SifuLMDII]

To mun hung:

Thank you for helping me prove my point! Wing Chun IS the nucleus of the JKD system (as taught by Bruce Lee anyway)! Sifu Patrick Strong, who trained with Bruce Lee for six years, said that Bruce used to do the sil lim tao form a minimum of five times per day! He felt that the structure developed from the form was so important to Jun Fan Gung Fu/Jeet Kune Do that it should be practiced daily! By the way, I just got off of the phone with one of my good friends who is a Wing Chun Sifu in the Yip Man lineage. He was calling to let me know that he and his Wing Chun brothers appreciate the efforts that I put into giving the Wing Chun system credit as being the nucleus of Bruce Lee's method! I'm glad someone does! Anyway, thanks again!

[rogue]

Lamar,
I appreciate your enthusiasm for original JKD. I hope maybe you could clarify somethings.

From web site: "Yes! I definitely think that JKD is a system with a structure! In fact, I know it is! If it is not, what have I been teching my students all these years? It certainly hasn't been any of the other arts that I trained in!

From KFO: "All that I currently train in is Jun Fan Gung Fu and Jeet Kune Do, along with a healthy dose of Wing Chun Gung Fu to constantly reinforce my structure. I have not found anything "lacking", nor have I felt that I really need anything else!"

Does JKD have it's own structure or does it rely upon Wing Chuns?


From Lamar Davis website interview:
"I started actively training in the martial arts at the age of ten, getting my first experience from basic Japanese judo and karate. I started purchasing books, magazines and everything else that I could get my hands on pertaining to the martial arts. At the age of fifteen, I was actively training in Northern Shaolin gung fu, Ed Parker's Kenpo, Korean tae kwon do and tang soo do. I eventually achieved full instructorship in Northern Shaolin gung fu, a second degree black belt in Ed Parker's Kenpo and first degree black belts in tae kwon do and tang soo do. Later on I got involved in Filipino kuntaw and escrima. I eventually achieved a fourth degree black belt in kuntaw and guro certification in escrima. I also studied a Chinese style called shin pao chuan (leopard boxing) and achieved full instructor's certification in that style. By this time, I was twenty-two years old"

Achieving all that in a twelve year time span is very impressive. You must have been a forms/hyung monster. :)
1. Would you mind listing your sifu, masters and sensei?
2. Did you study all these arts at the same time?
3. How many hours a week did you study each one?
4. Were any of these a McDojo? :)

[KC Elbows]

Sifu Davis,

I wouldn't be too hasty to judge this forum on a misunderstanding between yourself and Ryu. Ryu is probably one of the most honorable and respectful posters on here, and what he was saying in his post was not so much disrespectful, but just sharing his view on the topic. Look at Ryu's past posts, and you'll understand better. You'll benefit more from listening to Ryu than many on this forum, and at the very least, you'll be genuinely treated with respect.



Ryu,

However, this accursed virtue won't save Fistibuns. Plans are in the works for him and his pitiful clan!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAA!
(The Hideous Doctor ****swain vanishes out of sight, going back to the darkest regions of the forum where he and his kind hold sway, awaiting the day when they shall crush with an iron fist all that is decent and pure.)

[KC Elbows]

*******s! I can't even say my **** name without these ****ing censors making ****ing stars out of every ****ing letter! God **** virtuous ****mongers.

Sincerely,

Your friend,

The newly titled Hideous Dr. C0ckswain

[RAYNYSC]

Interesting Resume there Lamar,

Lets go over it for a sec. You say that you've trained in the Martial Arts for 34 years,10 of those years you crossed trained in Northern Shaolin Gung Fu,Filipino Kali,Kuntaw,Wu Wei Gung Fu,Shin Pao Chuan Gung Fu,Tae Kwon Do,Tang Soo Do & Ed Parker's American Kenpo Karate....

The other 24 years of your training is all Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do with some supplementary Wing Chun.

WOW :eek: You've even trained with 18 of Bruce Lee's original first generation students & hold a full instructor certification under 5 of them. As well as being the Executive Director/Senior Instructor of the Jun Fan Fighting Arts Association & the Jun Fan/Jeet Kune Do International,you've written 2 books on Jun Fan/Jeet Kune Do.....:rolleyes: & your point?...

Now as for saying this that & a third about Jun Fan/Jeet Kune Do & how if your not training the Jun Fan set curriculum you can't be doing Jeet Kune Do.....:confused: If you say so.... :D

Just for the Record there are quite a few Jeet Kune Do Concepts people out there that have a strong background in Jun Fan in fact they have a good understanding of what it is as well....:D ( meaning a strong base )

So to say that the Jeet Kune Do Concepts people have no idea about what Jun Fan is Because they choose to train in other arts( or as you put it to have to add to there training is to miss the point of what Jun Fan/Jeet Kune Do is about) tells me that you have issues with the Jeet Kune Do Camp whats up with that?....
( If you disagree with the way that someone is teaching what you have trained & worked so hard for then it's with them not the whole Jeet Kune Do Camp....)

Oh & by the way I do feel that one should have a good understanding of what Jun Fan is in order for them to appreciate what Jeet Kune Do has to offer reguardless of what side of the fence you're on be it Jun Fan/Jeet Kune Do or Jeet Kune Do Concepts....:D

In an other words Lamar Freedom Come's when you learn to let go!:p

A fighter will block where a master will attack


To know it is to comprehendit. To apply it is to use it. To master it is to experience it. From here on,there is no end . You can achieve yet higher levels.

[rogue]

D@nm Ryu and Ray, you JKD concepts people are always stirring up trouble. :p

Technique wise it would be possible to learn TKD & TSD at the same time or leverage one into the other, though learning all the hyungs up to black belt for both would be a bear. Don't know enough about EPK or the style of KF, but I'd guess that they wouldn't share the same attributes that TKD & TSD do.

Lamar, After reading your website I'd say you're a real traditionalist, like most of us here. :D

[jon]

Im not trying to argue with you and i can fully respect what you do my orginal post was simply in defence of Ryu. As I belived that your comments were very unfair.
Im also going to take exception to this.
To jon:

"Once again, here we go with someone quoting philosophisms and taking the meaning way out of context!"
- There was no context... If you have read the book you will know that comment comes from a whole section of individual comments in the back of the book entitled 'JUST A NAME' which discribe in detail how Bruce felt his Jeet Kune Do should be viewed.
"If Bruce Lee had lived, the Tao of Jeet Kune Do, if even published, would have been DRASTICALLY different from what we have today!"
- So in your opinion Linda Lee did her husband a great disservice by printing a manual of his thoughts and feelings towards his lifes work?
"Also, that statement that you quoted did not say what JKD is, it just said that he doesn't want people fussing over it!"
- actualy it says a lot of how he wanted his Jeet Kune Do to be viewed he clearly wanted people to take the concepts and apply them to there own learning, what the style is has nothing to do with Jeet Kune Do. This is evidenced all though the book, especialy in the preface which ill quote for you in total as was the last quote "This book is dedicated to the free, creative martial artist. Take what is usefull and develop from there."
NEVER in the book does it anywhere say, what Jeet Kune Do will or wont use or what or what not it is derived from.
" When this was written, he was still with us! Large and in charge, as the saying goes! He was here to clearly show us exactly what Jeet Kune do was, therefore no need to fuss over anything, as the proof was right before you! Now that he is not with us, it is as if fifty different players tried to take the same ball and run in different directions with it! That just doesn't work!"
- There you just nailed your own problem... If you want to say your teaching kung fu that comes from Bruce Lee more power to you. If you want to say its Jeet Kune Do thats no problem.
If you want to tell people that they cant apply "Jeet Kune Do" to there own studys or call themselfs in Bruces own words "a Jeet Kune Do man" then i hate to tell you, your wrong...
You dont own his martial arts and you dont own his concepts. If you wish to try and put others down for thinking there in some ways following in Bruce Lee's legacy your a fool.
Get off your high horse and meet the real world...
Yes your trained in the same methods, but you DONT own them and you never will.
As long as his own writings are around to prove you otherwise, you will always have the same argument.
Im not saying I dont respect what you do, im just saying dont pretend to be something your not and never could be, that is the authority on what Jeet Kune Do is or is not. Bruce has already done that for us.
Respects Jon

[RAYNYSC]

Hey Rogue,
I'm not trying to stir up any trouble.... :D
I'm just stating my own opinion just like you....:p

A fighter will block where a master will attack

To know it is to comprehend it. To apply it is to use it. To master is to experience it. From here on, there is no end. You can achieve yet higher levels.

[loki]

Am I to believe that Mr. Davis is now saying that Jun Fan JKD is a style?:confused: :rolleyes: Is this the same person who way back when on the JKD forum debated with me for days that it was not a style and then suddenly disappeared from the forum? :D

Wow! Glad to see you finally came around. :D One thing I have to say about this whole thread though, why is it that you feel the need to list all your credentials on every post you write. Sounds like a resume to me. Who are you trying to impress anyway?


Nice to have you back. I sure missed those discussions we used to have. :rolleyes: ;) :D


Peace

[SifuLMDII]

Hello loki!

I still say that JKD is not a "style"! LOL! Style, to me, is an individual thing! However, I do say, just as I always have, that Jeet Kune Do is a system, or method of martial arts! This has always been my opinion, and it always will be my opinion! :D

Now, as for the credentials, it is important to me for people reading my posts that they are made aware of the fact that I'm not just some "nobody" with "no knowledge" here to run my mouth! We have enough of those on this forum already! :eek:

Anyway, thanks for the welcome back! I see that the climate here has not changed much! LOL! Still plenty of people ready to jump in there if anything even the slightest bit controversial comes up! :rolleyes:

I look forward to eventually having some good, non-controversial Jun Fan Gung Fu/Jeet Kune Do related conversationon here! I mainly come onto the forums to see if I can be of assistance to anyone, but I often forget that some people really don't want to be helped! :(

Oh well, as long as the proverbial "pot" exists, there will always be someone waiting for their turn to stir! ;)

Take care!

[rogue]

"Now, as for the credentials, it is important to me for people reading my posts that they are made aware of the fact that I'm not just some "nobody" with "no knowledge" here to run my mouth! We have enough of those on this forum already! "

And I'm darn proud of it too!

C'mon Lamar, who did you study your non-JKD arts under. If I can admit to studying Shoalin Kempo Karate (GM Fred Villari) you can too! :D

Once again...
1. Would you mind listing your sifu, masters and sensei?
2. Did you study all these arts at the same time?
3. How many hours a week did you study each one?
4. How hard was it to keep all the forms and Hyung straight?

Hey Ray, this thread sounds like the What is JKD thread, but in a alternate universe.

[rubthebuddha]

i'm a little peeved about this. first you say that some of us aren't studying JKD and that we may not know our own style, then you say that JKD is not a style -- that it's more of an individual thing?

which is it, big guy?

i'm more keen on the second one, but that's just me.

[jon]

As rubthebuddha just said i think you have missed the point here sorely.
Most of us have simply objected to YOUR statements.
If you post in a way that says 'im a master of Bruce Lee's kung fu' then you have to expect people to occasionaly question your authority.
Likewise if you pick on people for things, you can expect others to step up and defend.
This is my favorite quote of late...
"people in glass houses shouldnt throw stones"

I dont doubt your abilitys or your resume.
I will object if you step on other people in an effort at making yourself look better.

Again nothing personal about you or your abiltiy. Just dont like the way you communicate your views.
Jon

[RAYNYSC]

Hey Rogue alternate universe LOL....:D

To know it is to comprehend it. To apply it is to use it. To master it is to experience it. From here on,there is no end. You can achieve yet higher levels.

[SifuLMDII]

"Style"

The word "style" as I perceive it, refers to an individual thing! In other words, I practice JKD, you practice JKD, but we each have our individual "style" of doing things! It is much like clothing, what one person sees as being "in style" for them might be "out of style" to another, or to the fashion world for that matter! Yet they are both looking at the same item of clothing! The individual is what puts the "style" into something! This is why I prefer to use the term METHOD or SYSTEM when I refer to Jeet Kune Do.

To rogue:

OK, since you asked for it, here goes:

Kenpo Karate, Northern Shaolin Gung Fu - Instructor/Thomas Seales (Originally from California, used to be the Chief of Police for the University of Alabama police department in Birmingham. Currently director of security for some hospital in Ohio.)

Filipino Escrima, Filipino Kuntao, Shin Pao Chuan Gung Fu - Instructor/Robert S. Brabante (Of Filipino descent, head of system passed to him by his father. Trained/ranked in multiple martial arts. Very extensive background. Last time I heard from him he was in Dallas, Texas.)

Wu Wei Gung Fu - Instructor/Joseph I. Cowles (Founder of this system, originally trained with Bruce Lee in Seattle, Washington.)

Tae Kwon Do - Instructor/Greg Smith (From Germany. Learned tae kwon do in Germany while father was stationed there in the military.)

Tang Soo Do - Instructor/Terry Norris (No relation to Chuck! LOL! Taught classes in tang soo do at the University of Montevallo in the mid-seventies.)

I have also experienced training in several other martial arts, such as shotokan karate, kodokan judo, yoshukai karate, kyokushin kai karate, praying mantis gung fu and most importantly, wing chun gung fu. When I was fifteen years old, I was training in six different martial arts at one time. I had my schedule arranged in high school so that I trained during P. E. class and during what was supposed to be study hall! I was at some class every night during the week, and often on weekends! I basically lived the martial arts from my early to late teens! I would start training in the afternoon immediately after coming in from school. My tae kwon do instructor would often come over to my house and spar with me. When it got to where I could take him EVERY TIME he started getting a bit worried! He didn't like this "kung fu stuff" that I was learning from someone else! LOL! He eventually stopped coming around and we no longer associated with each other in any way! Yes, it was sometimes difficult keeping forms separated! I hate forms, and I have always hated forms! In fact, the only form that I train now is sil lim tao, and I do that every day, several times a day! well, I guess that's about it! I hope this answered your questions adequately! And by the way, no McDojos, but I did eat at McDonald's after class a few times! LOL!

Oh, and by the way Ray, that's "EVIL ALTERNATE PARALLEL UNIVERSE"! LOL! :D
(a la Southpark)

[rogue]

Thanks Lamar for the rundown. Youth is a great thing, imagine trying to do all that now! :) I have enough trouble with managing family (1), work (2) and then 5 hours of class time a week, gym work and home practice.

I have some more questions about somethings on your site that I'll ask later. Nothing too stupid I hope, just some clarification of some quotes and your opinion.

[RAYNYSC]

Originally posted by SifuLMDII
Hello DragonzRage!

All that I currently train in is Jun Fan Gung Fu and Jeet Kune Do, along with a healthy dose of Wing Chun Gung Fu to constantly reinforce my structure. I have not found anything "lacking", nor have I felt that I really need anything else! Before I trained exclusively in Jun Fan/Jeet Kune Do, I cross trained in Northern Shaolin Gung Fu, Ed Parker's American Kenpo Karate, Filipino Kali and Kuntaw, Wu Wei Gung Fu, Shin Pao Chuan Gung Fu, Tae Kwon Do and Tang Soo Do! It was when I trained in those arts that I felt "incomplete"! I knew that I had found my martial arts home when I started training in Jun Fan/Jeet Kune Do! Everything just "clicked" and things fell right into place! I don't practice any of those other arts now, nor do I ever intend to go back to them!

I was wondering what exactly was lacking from your CMA training that made you feel so incomplete?....
As appose to your Jun Fan/Jeet Kune Do training which you say you haven't found anything lacking there for there's no need to add anything else to it....:D



To know it is to comprehend it. To apply it is to use it. To master it is to experience it. From here on,there is no end. You can achieve yet higher levels.

[rogue]

From Lamar Davis website: "Another statement that Bruce Lee himself once made that keeps ringing in my ears is "Jeet Kune Do is the only non-classical style of Chinese gung fu in existence today."

If Wing Chun, a classical style, is the core of Bruce Lee's art then JF/JKD is directly connected to a classical art which by association would make it also a classical art. Was Lee trying to have it both ways?

[myosimka]

from SifuLMDII's page


"Question: What do you think of the controversy between the JKD concepts practitioners and the Jun Fan/Jeet Kune Do practitioners?

Sifu Davis: Not Much! I think it is ridiculous! They have their way (concepts practitioners) and we have ours! Why can't they just do their thing and not criticize us for what we do? This stupid controversy has been going on forever! I think it's about time for everyone to grow up and give up the "if you don't play my way I'll take my toys and go home" attitude! They can play with their toys on their side of the fence and we'll play with our's on our side of the fence! What's the big deal?"



This cracks me up since he told Ryu he's not doing JKD and then complains that other people are jumping on him here. LOL!!

Also, personally sort of gave up on listening to him when he started to use the word style in a context outside of that used by the MA community so he could say that yes JKD was not a style and then outlines how it is one. I get his point that everyone has their own style but to say that in a forum where people routinely ask and answer the question,"What style do you practice?" is a bit misleading. Oh hell, I'll just change the standard definition of JKD and we won't have a problem any longer. What's the big deal?

SifuLMDII, my Jun Fan is really limited and I acknowledge that. I hold no instructorship in JKD and I acknowledge that. I am certain that you are a skilled practitioner and don't mean to offend. Personally though I think you are the exact reason Bruce Lee said it's just a name.

[loki]

In the martial arts the words STYLE and SYSTEM are synonymous. It does not matter if someone asks what style or what system I study. The answer would be the same.

Regardless of how Mr. Davis wants to define what he does. I'm afraid (although he won't ever admit this) that he is in a catch 22 situation here. Let's analyze this for a moment shall we? :D

The American Heritage Dictionary has the following to say:

STYLE: The way in which something is done, expressed or performed. Individuality expressed in one's action and tastes. To call or name, designate. To make consistent with rules of style.

METHOD : A systematic means or manner of procedure. Orderly arrangement of parts or steps to accomplish an end.

SYSTEM: A group of intereacting elements forming a complex whole.

So now, what can we conclude from this? Well, everyone knows that Bruce was against "styles". When he said this he meant he was againt the crystallization of someone's particular way of fighting. Whether that be the myriad of "styles" within the chinese martial arts, Karate "styles", or whatever. They are all different "styles" of fighting. However, looking at the definition above we can see that style is also an individual's own personal expression in doing something, meaning their own way. In this respect, Mr. Davis seems to have part of the definition to the word "style" correct, but then by Mr. Davis' own use of words he has gone against his SiJo's wishes in that he has CRYSTALLIZED his SiJo's teachings and turned them into a....."A SYSTEMATIC MEANS OR MANNER OF PROCEDURE" OR... "METHOD". Was not BL against this type of thinking? Did he not want the person, the individual to express themselves in their own way? It seems to me that Mr. Davis is trapped in the classical mess which BL spoke so ardently against but does not realize it. He has put BL's teachings in a box and has concluded that anyone who does anything that is not in that little box is not doing JKD....or whatever you want to call it.

Sorry, Mr. Davis, if it seems like I'm attacking you. I'm really not. You just left yourself open for that one and your statements kind of undermine the intelligence of people here by twisting and playing on the definition of words which every martial artist understands within the context of martial arts to suit your needs. That is a no no in my book.

Peace

[rogue]

Loki, That's what I mean by JKD & JKDC are hypocritical. They don't want to be a style, but as soon as a certain group of techniques are taught it becomes a style.

I'll give Lamar credit that he's a Jun Fan guy and sticks with it, I also give Ryu credit since he's using his Judo, PFS and the concepts JKD to create an art that fits him. I contrast this with the people who just copy Vunak, Inosanto or Burton Richardson(?) without exploring arts outside the accepted JKD curriculum.

[SifuLMDII]

Hello loki and everyone else!

Actually, by listing those definitions, you have been more assistance to proving my points than anything! Basically, according to the definitions that you have listed, Style is an individual's way of expressing a method or system! That's how I look at it anyway! You are free to see it anyway you want also!

Say what you want! I'll just sit here and laugh about it! I have made up my mind on this and I'm sticking to my guns here, just as I always have! Maybe you haven't read everything that I have, plus I doubt very seriously that you have had the many in-depth conversations with over twenty of Bruce Lee's personal students that I have had! They can tell you a lot more about how he felt about things than you will read in any book! And guess what, it's not what you think, that's for sure! Also, none of you have trained with me, so don't be so quick to judge my knowledge and abilities!

I know what Jun Fan Gung Fu is! I know what Jeet Kune Do is! I know what JKD concepts is! It's all actually pretty simple to understand, and it makes no sense to complicate things by attempting to alter the facts! It seems that there are those who either refuse to understand it, or they just don't have all of the facts! Say what you want, it's not going to change one single thing about the way I feel!

You guys can continue to take jabs at me, or anyone else for that matter, all that you want, but you aren't going to change a thing! Why not just realize this and try to do something constructive on these forums instead of wasting all of your time bad mouthing other people! I come here to try to help people, not to be blasted for expressing my thoughts and opinions! That's the reason that I left this forum the first time, and I was the moderator then! Have a nice day! :)

[myosimka]

Can't speak for the others but Sifu Richardson has tried hard to break that by requiring students to do outside training. There are requirements for training times with other instructors. Even has students maintain a logbook signed by other instructors when he reviews people for the phase testing. Personally don't like alot of Richardson's groundwork.

SifuLMDII,
"Say what you want! I'll just sit here and laugh about it! I have made up my mind on this and I'm sticking to my guns here, just as I always have!" Yes you have and I think that was sort of the point that most of us were trying to make. We are trying to do something constructive and point out to you and other people reading these posts that you are not the ultimate authority and that JKD could possibly be more than what you are stating. And your decision to say that what you are teaching is not a style by changing the MA definition of style is sort of flawed logically. Myo Sim is a style and I practice it in my own style. 2 different ideas. You have made JKD a style. Clearly not in Bruce Lee's plan.


Also maybe you are right. Maybe he'd love what you are doing and say that is JKD and the JKD concepts people are wrong. But until I die I'll never know. Difference is until that point, I'll go with what he wrote and say that yes, you are doing JKD. But so is Vunak. So is Ryu. So is Ted Wong. So is Inosanto. So is Thornton. So is Cucci.

Lastly, this is an exchange of ideas. I will help where I can but mostly I come here to chat and to learn. but you-"I come here to try to help people, not to be blasted for expressing my thoughts and opinions! " I think your entire last post somes it up. With the attitude/arrogance. Think it might be time to empty your cup.

And yes, I realize I am not going to change a thing. You believe what you believe and nothing will change that. I am still going to stick with the different things he's written and decide that whatever JKD might be the openminded attitude he espoused in the Tao of JKD is the best thing that Bruce Lee left me. As to any specific techniques/system, there's better/worse/equal but different stuff all over the place. The mental attitude in the Tao was what made him great in my mind. and timeless.

Good luck to you.

[rubthebuddha]

then refrain from badgering people by saying that they don't know what they're studying and acting like you're a better authority than the rest of us, especially on systems you haven't completed (WC, for example). i think those were the jabs that set so many people off -- myself included.

i don't think anyone's questioning your JKD knowledge -- seems you out-rank the rest of us on experience on that. and i'm glad you're here because of it. we like experience. with proper care, it brings wisdom, and THAT'S what we really want.

that, and do you need to use exclamation points so ****ing much? i have this really bad picture in my mind of some guy yelling about JKD at the top of his lungs all day, and it's hurting the rest of my opinions of you.

if course, by the same token, i could get off my ass and capitalize something for a change. :)

[Leonidas]

Well, this has really taken off. Too bad it's something i really dont know about. I seriously didn;t think JKD was a style or system, however you wanna phrase it. I read things Lee supposedly wrote. I guess it was BS but i forgot who wrote it so i can't post it. Besides that i'm confused on what his real intensions were. In the end only he would know.

[rogue]

I disagree with some of your views Lamar, but I'm not trying to change them. I've had questions about JKD for a while now which very few have even attempted to answer.

Maybe using the word hypocritical was wrong, what I meant was JKD has conflicting ideas. If you know what JKD is, and Jun Fan and JKDC and how to reconcile the conflicting ideas about style and such that we've noted then please do so. Either I'm too stupid to see how conflicting statements made by JKD people resolve themselves or the JKD crowd accepts these conflicts with blind faith, how they do without any cognitive dissonance is bothersome. I guess that there's a third way that you may know but haven't yet told us.

[loki]

"I have made up my mind and sticking to my guns on this".

As if you could do otherwise. :rolleyes: I proved your point? Everyone else doesn't seem to think so. But then again, noone here knows what they're talking about except you, right? We are the ones who need your help, right? You are here to save everyone from their ignorance because after all you studied under 18 of BL's original students, right? Well, you know you missed one. I wonder why? Look, you may be an exceptional martial artist. Personally, don't know, don't care but you need to take care of that ego of yours and stop being so closed minded.

Wow! the irony...a traditional martial artist calling a jkder closed minded. Go figure :D

Oh, and just out of curiosity, what style of mantis did you study? And who did you study from?

[RAYNYSC]

Hey Lamar,




I was wondering what exactly was lacking from your CMA training that made you feel so incomplete?....
As appose to your Jun Fan/Jeet Kune Do training which you say you haven't found anything lacking there for there's no need to add anything else to it....:D



To know it is to comprehend it. To apply it is to use it. To master it is to experience it. From here on,there is no end. You can achieve yet higher levels.

[GinSueDog]

Lamar,
How do you feel about grappling, do you feel there is a need for it and do you think the grappling offered by Jun Fan is enough in a world where everyother martial artist seems to be a BJJer?-ED

[Sifu R. Prather]

Hello all,
I have read this entire stream of posts--yes, and know my head hurts. Quite frankly, what I see most is a bunch of people (not all) threatened by an authority figure. You envy what you do not possess and strike out against what you do not fully comprehend. Most of you spouting insults and insinuations at Sifu Davis from behind your keyboard would **** your pants if you faced him one-on-one. That's the truth! Let me break it down like this:

Jun Fan/JKD is NOT a style simply because it advocates a core curriculum of techniques and principles because they were developed, taught and practiced by Sijo Lee himself while alive. This is HIS Jeet Kune Do--if we "add" anything, and there is little reason to, we do not call it Jeet Kune Do, because it is not. Now, it must still fit a core criterea, but that's the way it should be for all things. Sijo Lee left behind his techniques, his methods, his phylosophy of training--but he always intended HIS art to stand for what it is, NAME OR NOT, and left the individual to add--and get this for the Concepts folks--his or her "emotional content/intensity/adaptive attributes".

Myosimka wrote: "And he didn't live so if we are to follow what Lee taught which is the big sticking point for many JKD instructors then what better source do we have than his writings/quotes?"

What better source? Lee himself, from the ones that perpetuate what he was actually doing while alive, what made him and Jeet Kune Do so **** good in the first place! Notes are just that--notes. Most JKDC people look little to nothing like Jun Fan practitioners. Why? Becasue they aren't doing Jeet Kune Do. Period. Without some methodology you have chaos. The tru liberation of JKD is not in the HEAPING ON of techniques, the ruination of structure, it is in what the individual adds of their SPIRIT and INTENSITY. Bruce will always by JKD's center, its standerd and its core. You cannot refine a straight line with a curve. If you want free expression in JKD, look to the Five Ways of Attack--it's in there, for YOU, the individual to discover.

How can people call Sifu Davis egotistical and arrogant for attempting to educate from a position of learning and authority he has EARNED from over three decades of hard work? His curriculum spans every developemental period of Jeet Kune Do. We are not interested in "what ifs" when "what is" is more than good enough. There is a reason why Concepts people refute this---it's easier to add than to perfect, to claim to be "cutting edge" and new than to settle for average. When your ass is on the line, what are you really thinking? Hit him first, hit him again and again and again until he can't stand. This is JKD--simple, direct, efficient. No amount of heaping on will make it something more than it already is.

Think about it.

[SifuLMDII]

To myosimka:

Thanks for your comments, but please remember that the Tao of Jeet Kune Do was not meant for publication. It is just a collection of Bruce Lee's notes! To get a full picture, you need to also read the Tuttle book "Jeet Kune Do: Commentaries On The Martial Way". That is all of the stuff that was left out of the Tao of Jeet Kune Do! To make a complete book, you have to put the two together. If you have not read it, please do. It is an awesome book, and I, along with many others, like it much better than the Tao of Jeet Kune Do!

To rubthebuddha:

Thank you also for your comments! I never claimed to be an authority on Wing Chun, although I have trained extensively in Wing Chun and was offered instructorship under a high ranking master! As for my knowledge of JF/JKD, as I said, I come onto forums to try to help people! That's all! No more, no less! As for my use of these (!), I just get excited about what I am saying! I love my art! I am very happy to be a JF/JKD practitioner! Besides THIS MEANS YELLING! LOL!

To rogue:

I'm glad that you disagree with some of my views! This world would be a pretty boring place if we all felt exactly the same about everything! As for the separation between the various JKD "camps", and how to solve the problems, I don't have an answer to that! I think it is best if everyone just does their own thing and respects others for what they do! If we could all do that this world would be a much better place, and we would all be open to learn something from each other!

To loki:

First of all, I am not closed minded! I never have been and I never will be! Since when is believing in what you do closed minded? Oh, and don't mistake self confidence for ego! Those who are closest to me know that I have no ego, I just have a very strong belief in what I do, and I am quite sure of my abilities! Now, if you want to let a "small" difference in opinion of what "style" means get in the way of having another friend in the martial arts world, then you are just looking for stones to throw! I've got better things to do! I would rather have peacful discussions about various aspects of training methods, techniques, strategies, etc. than argue about something anyday!

To RAYNYSC:

The other arts that I have trained in just left me feeling like there was more, or like something was missing! When I found Jun Fan Gung Fu and Jeet Kune Do, I knew that I had found my home! In other words, what fits me! I believe that all martial arts are great, but each person will find the art that best fits them. When they find that art, they will know they are home! I'm not saying that those other arts that I have studied are bad, just that they are not for me. I hope you understand where I am coming from here!

Peace to all of you! I hope to one day get to meet you in person so that we can train together! Take care and God Bless! :)

[joedoe]

There is a punctuation mark - '.' - that can mostly be used instead of a '!'

It works much better if you ask me !!!!! :D

[rogue]

"This is HIS Jeet Kune Do--if we "add" anything, and there is little reason to, we do not call it Jeet Kune Do, because it is not."

So, Lee reached the culmination of his martial art at the time of his death? How does Inosanto fit into this? Inosanto(friend and student of Lee) is still mastering arts such as BJJ, does he feel that all his needs were met by JF/JKD?

Jeeze have you guys have put Lee into a box. What I hear from the strict JF/JKD crowd is that Lee, if he hadn't died, wouldn't have moved past where he was, that he would have ignored any other martial way of thinking past the time of his death. That's a very classical (and messy) way of thinking.

[myosimka]

And so it gets personal and nasty. Prather, chill out. I questioned his interpretation of certain things and his logic. Still do. Simple disagreement.
"I have read this entire stream of posts--yes, and know my head hurts. Quite frankly, what I see most is a bunch of people (not all) threatened by an authority figure. You envy what you do not possess and strike out against what you do not fully comprehend. Most of you spouting insults and insinuations at Sifu Davis from behind your keyboard would **** your pants if you faced him one-on-one."
I am not threatened nor am I striking out. I am simply pointing out there are a number of people in the JKD world who disagree with him. Many of whom have also been certified by Lee's students.
I don't envy him or his skill. I'll grant that he would probably whoop up on me. (Not training that hard these days) But I don't envy skill, I admire it. Don't know much about him. So maybe I would admire his skill if I knew him. Certainly a possibility.
Also I have had my ass whipped by some of the best-surprisingly never soiled my pants(had to work hard to stop it though when this one 300 pound guy doing knee-on stomach and side mount drills in a BJJ class one time but that was something different all together)

"Most JKDC people look little to nothing like Jun Fan practitioners. Why? Becasue they aren't doing Jeet Kune Do." Ah and here we have the crux of it. The one that always gets me. The use of JKD and Jun Fan interchangeably. They are different things. If they weren't, Lee wouldn't have needed to come up with the later name. Oh and alot of the JKDC guys are JunFan trained but they decided to go a different route. I don't think they should call what they are teaching JFJKD but personally see nothing wrong with JKD.

I study a traditional style with clear charted requirements/techniques. A few of my students have a habit of telling me what is and is not Myo Sim. To be told that I am not doing Myo Sim (when I can clearly demonstrate the roots of my techniques in forms/drills on the charts) is annoying and sort of rude. I imagine the reason the JKDC guys get so bent is you are doing the same thing. Funny thing is I never hear the JKDC guys make the same claim about JFJKD. You may have heard it and if so, I apologize for that assumption but I don't hear that claim.
Other JKD instructors certified by Lee's students have certainly earned their position as well. Your claiming they are not practicing JKD is at least as offensive to them as my saying JKD is more than just JFJKD is to you.

Also your assumption that anything added on is done so without methodlogy is flawed. "Without some methodology you have chaos." I don't know what JKDC guys you have trained under but Sifu Richardson clearly relates everything he does to the 5 ways of attack.

Can't believe I just wasted this much time responding to someone who told me to think about it. Especially after reading my posts. You're right-I couldn't possibly have thought about it and still disagree with you. Oh wait, yes I can!



SifuLMDII,
I've done a fair amount of reading and I just find myself falling on the JKDC side of the fence. I see the JFJKD points but feel that that's where the name Jun Fan comes in. True JKD is not simply MMA but I think it can incorporate a JF core and expand as needed. Personally Inosanto deciding to strap on a white belt and start studying BJJ at his age impresses the crap out of me!! Hell for that matter he took up Muay Thai at 39. That's just crazy! The only thing I would say is that while we disagree the difference is I am not claiming that you are not doing JKD because it has grown to involve ground fighting. Yes what you are doing is JKD but so is what Vunak practices, so is what Wong, Poteet, Hartsell...

BTW, I never claim what I do is JKD. Just people I've trained with.



Rogue,
I see what you mean. This keeps up and I may go the same way as you. True, my gripes are more with the JFJKD side but overall the attitudes in JKD sometimes leave something to be desired.(and if one more Vunak guy tells me to bite in an armbar...)

[rogue]

myosimka, come over to the dark side!:D

Has anyone here downed Lamars or any JKD fighters skills? The argument is in the marketing of what JKD is or isn't. Heck if I was down in Lamars neck of the woods I'd take a class or two and expect to learn something.

[myosimka]

not that I recall but for some reason Prather felt the need to turn it into

"My dad can beat up your dad."
and
"You guys are just talking this way because you are anonymous behind your keyboards."

Because apparently "hey, maybe JKD and JunFan are different but related"-them's fightin' words!!

And people keep telling me to cross over. I guess you can all feel my hate making me strong. As long as I get assurances that I can make one Faustian gesture, like Vader did in that crappy frggin' ewok sale vehicle, and be redeemed. Like maybe I take up aikido at 60 or something.


I don't mind the dark side but kind of seems like a karmic one way street.

[rubthebuddha]

Lamar: glad to hear it. like i've said, we're happy you're here, as someone of your experience in JF/JKD has a lot to offer. as far as the wing chun, i was referring to the fact that extensively does not mean complete. but it's nice hearing someone who trains in one style accepting the strong foundations of another and respecting it.

Prather: glad to know you suffer from the same idle, keyboard-laden threat-spouting we supposedly do. Lamar doesn't need your help -- he's doing just fine on his own. i'm also glad that you think an ability to whoop our asses qualifies as a reason to be revered. and as far as envy? bull****. i don't envy anyone who's an expert in jkd, or any other style of study, including my own, and i don't believe the rest of us do, either. i respect hard work, dilligence and skill. however, i somewhat revel in my own inexperience, because i've enjoyed epiphane after epiphane in my studies, day after day. one of the greatest joys in my martial arts is the knowledge that there's plenty more out for me to absorb. while i look to my seniors with the most profound respect, i occasionally look at them with a childish "neener-neener" attitude, knowing that i have more ephiphanes left than they do. :)

as far as arrogant and egotistical, that was how his comments came across at times - no one likes to hear someone they don't know tell them that they don't know what they're talking about. but i don't think anyone who capitalizes nearly every sentence out of sheer enthusiasm has enough energy left to be arrogant.

oh, and Lamar? i'll meet you halfway -- i'll at least capitalize your name.

[Sifu R. Prather]

Rogue,

I'll address you since most of the rest of this is rather infantile. You ask: "So, Lee reached the culmination of his martial art at the time of his death? How does Inosanto fit into this? Inosanto(friend and student of Lee) is still mastering arts such as BJJ, does he feel that all his needs were met by JF/JKD?"

As far as Sijo Lee reaching the potential of himself and his art, NO--he was improving everyday. But he WAS aware of the arts now adopted by the concepts camps though, and studied them. The truth is, he only took the tiny snips that were useful and dropped the rest. I believe he most certainly would have avoided wasting his time devolping rediculously unrealistic techniques based mostly on competition ideologies and wasted movement and energy.

As far as Inosanto fitting into JKD, well, I don't think he does. Nor do I think Vunak or Burton does. They are both effective in their own ways--but Inosanto has left Jun Fan for flavor of the month profit, and Burton appears to be on his own cloud, inspired by Inosanto but not resembling Bree Lee's art at all.

For more insight, go back and try to understand my previous post.

[rogue]

I find your second paragraph odd considering that besides Wing Chun that JF/JKD is made up of boxing, various kickboxing styles and sport fencing. So outside of the Wing Chun did Lee see any other non-sporting art fit for his street art?

I agree that Inosanto getting his black belt in BJJ does smell of flavor of the month. After all what'd he do, hand over a check, "roll" a couple of weeks and win some "close" ( ;) ;) nudge, nudge) matches against some BJJ blue belts? Yeah Dans a wanker all right.

"For more insight, go back and try to understand my previous post."
I wish I could but obviously I'm not on the same developinated level as you. :D

[SifuLMDII]

Hello Rogue!

Sijo Bruce Lee took the functional attributes/techniques that were useful for the street from boxing and fencing. He didn't adopt both methods as a whole! It is a known fact that his kicking was influenced by several fighting arts, yet his method of kicking was uniquely his own. I can promise you that what he took from these arts, he wasn't looking at in any way as sport! He was basically looking at ways to separate the head from the body! :D

[rubthebuddha]

please correct me if i'm wrong, but didn't bruce also modify his own kicks and stances to make amends with the fact one leg was shorter than the other by an inch (or maybe more)?

would you consider this to be one way he applied his concepts (generic use of the word) to his practice?

[SifuLMDII]

Hello!

That did supposedly cause him to have to bend one leg slightly more in his on guard position, but other than that, there was no real difference! His kicks were modified so that the foot goes straight from where it is to the target without any chambering or telegraphic set up. This is one of the things that make the original eight basic kicks of JKD so effective! This is also one of the most important factors in the jeet tek, or stop kick. With no wasted motion, the stop kick gets there faster!

[rogue]

Lamar, Rons post degrading ring sport is a good example of the hubris and contradictions that many JKD people hold.

When Ron refers to "competition ideologies and wasted movement and energy." I have to wonder if he's ever competed. People involved in sports work more on efficient use of energy and movement than do many "realistic" styles. They have to, sports are always being refined, even sport TKD has changed over the years. Have you ever seen a more rapid change in fighting technique as you have in the MMA/UFC/Pride style of fighting? I'm sure that those that participate in the Dog Brothers gatherings are much more efficient stick fighters than those that just drill deadly techniques.

The contradiction of the scientific streetfighters is that it seems to be OK to pull from ring-sport but also to look down on them. Kind of like biting the hand that feeds them.

Sport: An activity involving physical exertion and skill that is governed by a set of rules or customs and often undertaken competitively.

[SifuLMDII]

Hello Again Rogue!

It's not so much that we "look down" on sports! In fact, I have great respect for those who train like maniacs to stay on top of their game! That definitely takes will power and dedication, which are admirable traits in any athlete. The main difference in the way we look at sports is this: In sports, there are rules to keep a person from being killed or seriously injured. In JKD, we are trying to injure the attacker as much as we can, as quickly as we can! It is the rules of sports that make the difference! I hope that you understand what I am trying to say here!

[Sifu R. Prather]

Hello Rogue,

You posted: "Lamar, Rons post degrading ring sport is a good example of the hubris and contradictions that many JKD people hold."

--Do you mean Concepts? Probably not Jun Fan, though I don't pressume to speak for all of us. There are some who claim to be Jun Fan but really are distilled versions.

"When Ron refers to "competition ideologies and wasted movement and energy." I have to wonder if he's ever competed."

---The answer is yes. Boxing at the amatuer level (my big Anglo/American Indiana nose got in the way, LOL); the whole 80's tournament thing, mostly mid-America, as a young Brown and Black belt in Chung Do Kwan Tae Kwon Do. I gave it up when the ego and testosterone settled down.

"People involved in sports work more on efficient use of energy and movement than do many "realistic" styles."

--Just because you kill yourself to refine a technique doesn't make it refined or economical. It simply means you are profficient at whatever it is.

"The contradiction of the scientific streetfighters is that it seems to be OK to pull from ring-sport but also to look down on them. Kind of like biting the hand that feeds them."

--Where there is value there is value. Consequently, some trash must be thrown out to find the good, and then it has to meet JKD's criterea and non-rules approach. Thankfully, Sijo Lee has already done the Lion's share of the work for us. We have his distilation to perpetuate and refine on a personal level withouht the risk of curruptive elements.

Keep swinging Rogue, you're getting warmer.

[rogue]

I withdraw my remark about you not competing Ron.

--Where there is value there is value. Consequently, some trash must be thrown out to find the good, and then it has to meet JKD's criterea and non-rules approach.

Criterea: A standard, rule, or test on which a judgment or decision can be based.
contradict: To assert or express the opposite of (a statement).

I think I just landed one Ron! :D
Also how much Wing Chun is trash?

--Thankfully, Sijo Lee has already done the Lion's share of the work for us. We have his distilation to perpetuate and refine on a personal level withouht the risk of curruptive elements.

That almost sounds deep Ron, and very cult like. Nice "us versus them" quality. Try that last sentence again but use smaller words to be clear. ;)

distillation: The evaporation and subsequent collection of a liquid by condensation as a means of purification: the distillation of water.
--So Bruce Lee liked to boil water? :confused:

Just because you kill yourself to refine a technique doesn't make it refined or economical. It simply means you are profficient at whatever it is.

So only JKD has the secret? :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

Efficient: Acting or producing effectively with a minimum of waste, expense, or unnecessary effort.

C'mon Ron try to be efficient in your writing. You're doing a lot of dancing and throwing a lot of combos but your facing the wrong way. :p

Lamar: It is the rules of sports that make the difference!
-- I agree. I'd hate to tick off Herb Perez, Royce Gracie, Joe Lewis or Cung Le outside of the ring. :)

PS Ron: As a Systems Analyst for business and various Gov't agencies I have pick sentences apart and find inconsistences for a living. :cool:

[Sifu R. Prather]

Hello again, Rogue.

You wrote: "As a Systems Analyst for business and various Gov't agencies I have pick sentences apart and find inconsistences for a living."

---That's very nice, Rogue. I happen to be a college English teacher. Picking apart dull minds and attempting to sharpen, inspire and edify them is my business. I'll see what I can do for you.


Criterea: A standard, rule, or test on which a judgment or decision can be based.
contradict: To assert or express the opposite of (a statement).

I think I just landed one Ron!

---Not really, though your glib reasoning astounds me. Everything in life, whether we realize it or not, is based upon some fixed or flexible criterea. Regardless, the end result is the same. If we impose a "standard" then anything less than that would be settling. Sijo Lee did not "settle". All modes of logic--Rogerian, deductive, inductive, etc., are based on relationships... between "facts", "principles", "evidence", all leading to what we believe will be as logical a conclusion as possible. Sijo Lee's criterea is a combination of deductive and inductive reasoning. There are certain elemental truths in combat--you can find them in the Five Ways of Attack, and you can find their most proficient and refined application in Jun Fan structure and technique. As I have said before, you cannot improve upon a straight line by attempting to curve it. But look, take the curves out of something and you just might find a directly applicable aspect of Jun Fan. Sport then becomes a twisted maze of angles, curves, twist and irregular motions. Imbedded within though Sijo found a line that could, if it were not already straight, lend itself to his criterea within the context of his JKD. Only a few made the cut. And they are constant, brother. It is up to the individual though to breathe live and expression into them with the singular intensity of their spirit.

Don't bother with cracking the dictionary. Let's see if you can think on your own. Definitions are fine, but they "lend" themselves to to words and concepts. Language is flexible and must be more than the sum shallow parts of its users.

[GinSueDog]

Sifu R. Prather,
So is it your belief that in the twenty or so years that Bruce Lee researched other styles outside of wing chun he discovered everything there was to know on what works and what doesn't in the hundreds if not thousands of different styles out there? Doesn't China alone have a few hundred styles? Then there is south east Asia with thousands of islands each with a population of natives with there own martial art. Let's not forget about Europe and Russia.

I think the one big problem with Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do is that a lot of the stylists it produces are simply paper cutouts. They have made a system supposedly designed to continue to evolve stagnate and obsolete because the core instructors at it's center are too caught up on trying to think and be Bruce Lee.

I have had the chance to train with a couple of great Jeet Kune Do instructors, one Jun Fan and the other Concepts both had great things to offer, but they were the exception. The majority didn't impress me too much, especially the "traditional" JKD guys with there closed minds and bad attitudes. You can bag on the sports guys all you want but the difference between you and them is that when they show me a technique, I know they have done it thousands of times and I know they have used it successfully against another trained individual hundreds more. Most "street real" instructors cannot say the same, I would even go as far as to say the majority have most likely never used 98% of what they teach on the street period.

Sorry to sound so negative but it is the same attitudes that I see here on this topic from suppose "Jun Fan" JKD instructors that I ran into constantly while training that basically disgusted me enough to make me go my own way.-ED

[KenWingJitsu]

LMD & others on this forum...

perhaps a better way to refer to JKD is not as a style, but as a "method".

Karate =style
Kung fu =style

Boxing = method
Kickboxing = method
JKD = method....I think that sounds better.

[rubthebuddha]

how does the JKD stop kick compare to the wing chun stop kick (just a typical front kick usually fired from yap gerk).

also, and i ask this out of honestly not knowing, how would you characterize the differences betweek JF, JKD and JKDC. you don't have to write a novel, but some basic technical and applicational differences would be nice.

thanks!

-rtb

[myosimka]

And the reason, I am getting out of this discussion:



Prather said "As far as Inosanto fitting into JKD, well, I don't think he does." So we shouldn't read what Lee wrote we should follow what Lee did through his students. Except that Inosanto guy???



Never mind. No need to stay in this discussion any longer. Not going to debate JKD with someone who denies Inosanto's legitimacy.

[rogue]

Thanks for letting me know that you are an college English teacher, I'll type slower and use smaller words.

"Don't bother with cracking the dictionary. Let's see if you can think on your own. Definitions are fine, but they "lend" themselves to to words and concepts. Language is flexible and must be more than the sum shallow parts of its users."

Yes Ron, and it's because of that kind of BS thinking that I make lots of money straightening out problems that those sharpended minds create and still have time to spend here. So if one contradicts oneself we just call it a flexible use of words? Brilliant!
And yes I do use definitions to be clear about the meaning of the words and concepts that I use, sorry for imposing structure upon your flexible thought process.

You are the perfect proto-type of a JKD person, a know it all who contradicts himself, but who is so deep in denial that he doesn't even notice it.

JKD ~ Scientific Street fighting
JKD = Philosophically flexible thing-a-jig.

[Merryprankster]

Wow. A major point of disagreement here.

I agree that the rules change the game.

However, the point of sport training is to make people used to getting whacked and getting used to executing techniques on a resisting, hopefully reasonably skilled opponent. The gross motor movements executed and mastered in training for the ring have very real applicability in real life. Far more transfer, I would argue than "no rules," techniques practiced at half-speed.

It is FAR easier to add in a groin strike or eye-gouge or knee to the face or bootstomp, as an addition to your sportive techniques, than it is to include those in your repetoire and not get the opportunity to practice them, and then hope the work.

IE it is better to train sport, full speed, than train the groin strike type stuff over and over at half speed and not know for certain.

Igor KNOWS his punches work.
Royce certainly KNOWS his stuff works.

I wager the average JKD'er; unless training for the ring or some such, doesn't. I realize there are exceptions to the rules, and certainly many people have used the techniques with great success to defend themselves, but I still put my money on sport.

[myosimka]

Gotta go with you on that one.

"Igor KNOWS his punches work.
Royce certainly KNOWS his stuff works.

I wager the average JKD'er; unless training for the ring or some such, doesn't. "

The real problem is that they 'know stuff will work' when it doesn't. Or that it may work but won't end a fight. Poking someone in the eye temporarily blinds them but it doesn't necessarily end a fight. As evidenced by a buddy of mine who took a punyo(sp?) strike in the eye recently and finished out class. Yeah, the other guy had a brief advantage when he reared back and put his hands to his face but if that advantage isn't pressed. Students asked about it later. 'Hey, why didn't that end it?' Yeah, my friend was hurt and yeah, he teaches eyestings and other things. But he also does what many would view as sport-style training because he knows it works. It teaches valuble lessons that you don't get without going all out. Going to a firing range and practicing target shooting with controlled timing is a great idea and good practice but it's not really prep for a gunfight. And safer techniques with greater force can prepare teach you some of that.


And a lot of the JKDers who 'don't do that sport stuff' tell me all the time how it won't work on the street. "How do you know? Ever fought an NHB fighter with your stuff?" And it when it comes to that sort of thing some of the concepts guys are just as bad as the Jun Fan guys. (no offense to SifuLMDII, that's a general comment from my experiences with JKD people) Was recently told biting the leg was a good way to get out of the armbar and the triangle. I said I didn't think so and did something a bit stupid and offered to test it. Results: a) one very nasty mark on my left calf but it still didn't get him out and he screamed and tapped. Still didn't break it though. So I used my technique and still stopped short and it worked. Because I have trained it and tried it out a lot. (still stupid move on my part, should have just let him talk trash and kept all the blood inside my body) b)realization that alot of people who say these things don't understand even the basics of the sportstyles. Guy was surprised I applied the triangle by using one hand to jockey his head around and get my leg below where he could bite.



Ok, so I lied, still in this thread. In my defense though, it is a sort of tangential reply and I am steering clear of Prather.

[LEGEND]

Merry Prankster...I have to agree with you but I was talking to my friend Rick who is a JKD guy who has trained with Ted Wong and others...he seems to practice the JUN FAN method more than the Concepts...I don't know what he names it LOL...anywayz he reason to me that he trains to INTERCEPT. The only thing I can think of is maybe the JKD guys are hoping to intercept the first strike and destroy them from that point on. So maybe they're training for almost a one strike one kill mentality...but in JKD case...one multiple attack=one kill. NO??? Like some wing chun guys...they believe a total offense will not allow the opponent to launch an effective offense. Or any offense attempt extended will result in trapped and continue destruction.

[straightblast5]

Adding to the sport vs. street fighting discussion, I feel that sport fighting (to a person training for "real" combat) is merely just another a way to nurture the attributes needed to be a good "street" fighter. This is analogous to chisao being merely an exercise to enhance the practitioner's ability to (directly and efficiently) execute techniques upon a resisting opponent.

When I mention attributes (in relation to sport sanshou, boxing, etc), I mean speed, power, distancing, focus, endurance, etc.... all of which can be applied to enhance techniques (deadly or not).

I feel the bottom line is that training for "sport" gives you the attributes to better execute your techniques (deadly or not) against a resisting opponent. However, sport fighting alone cannot be considered real fighting, as you are restricted to the rules and regulations enforced to protect the longevity of the fighters. During actual combat, practicing solely under these regulations will hinder one’s efficiency to incapacitate his or her opponent(s).

Sparring (to whatever degree) is an important part of any serious martial arts curriculum, but not being able to separate fighting within a controlled setting (which includes events like Pride and the UFC) and a real no-holds-barred street fight can serious hinder a fighter from efficiently incapacitating his/her opponent (s).

Of course, the above statements are merely my opinion formulated from my own research and experiences.


Phil
Ng Family Chinese Martial Arts Association (http://www.ngfamilymartialarts.com)

[Sifu R. Prather]

This just appeared in the Authentic Jun Fan/Jeet Kune Do Forum Newsletter--I thought it might have some relevence here.

Jeet Kune Do: Where is it Going?

To put things in simple terms—Jeet Kune Do today is a mess! There is division in Jun Fan/Jeet Kune Do; JKD Concepts; those that claim a “progressive” banner while still using JKD as a selling tool; and those whose art bears little to no resemblance to Sijo Lee’s art at all. Where then is all this misinformation, veneration, dedication, *******ization and free license going? The answer is simple: Back to the beginning.

Contrary to popular belief, Jeet Kune Do is not a “style” simply because it advocates a core curriculum of techniques, theories, drills, strategies and principles. It is a refined extension of Sijo Lee’s own Gung Fu. It is a “way” or “tao” because its modifications were based on Sijo’s personal criteria and Gung Fu structure. You cannot, in other words, claim to practice or teach Sijo’s Jeet Kune Do without having a working knowledge of its Chinese base—for to do so would be similar to building a bridge to another land without understanding the fundamentals of geometry and load-bearing architecture. All the ornamentation in the world won’t prevent it from collapsing in an assaulting wind.

Jeet Kune Do is indeed a vehicle for self-discovery and physical expression. The “tao” is not bound by something just because it contains “something”—if you follow. The term, “add what is distinctly your own,” I feel has been *******ized by many of today’s martial artists. Adding, as the term implies, is by definition an adding of something, a heaping on or an expansion through addition. In Sijo’s JKD though, this adding is an “adaptation” of the individual to a given. If I, for example, counter your double-handed push to my chest with a simple chung chuie, there is no simpler defense in existence—even a leg attack would take more energy and positioning (though slight). If all the elements of your structure are intact, as long as the punch travels along a straight path with next to no wasted motion—it can be called representative of the “technique” demonstrated to you by me. If you raise a left hand though as a distraction as you throw the punch, howl like a wounded cat, smile, ****, whatever—you are adding YOUR intensity, what is DISTINCTLY you. You have not altered simplicity; you have modified it with what is distinctly you. A lan sao is a lan sao is a lan sao… period! But, how I get to this position, as long as it follows a refined, non-classical, direct, economical direction aligned with proper structure is YOU! Scientific truth slams headfirst into the spirit and intensity of the individual. This is why the Five Ways of Attack, in my opinion, represent the perfect expression of the Jeet Kune Do “individual”. You cannot refine a proper chung chuie in a given situation any more than it already is. If you come at me and my right hand is twelve inches from your eyes, I take your eyes before destroying your body. Taking the eyes is the simplest and most direct way of dealing with this hypothetical scenario. Adding a half step, a six-inch waver to either side, mis-aligning the hips and elbow, all degrade, heap upon, and ultimately ruin your technique. You are no longer “adding” what is you (emotional content) “or” adapting a technique along a given technical and already refined criteria for said technique (from Sijo), you are creating something that has missed the mark and is NOT JKD.

To summarize thus far, “adding what is distinctly your own” in Jeet Kune Do is not a license to add whatever you want from different systems because you think its cool. Jeet Kune Do has already been streamlined, refined, simplified, tested and applied for us in line with Sijo Lee’s strict criteria. “Adding” is adapting what doesn’t work exactly for you as it did for Bruce using your individual skills and physical and mental attributes. THIS is the vehicle for self-discovery. JKD is not about doing what you want how you want—there are, like it or not, certain rules. This is why real JKD men have a common core, a common sense of structure and technique, but vary only in their individual expression of physicality’s in relation to Sijo’s truths.

Jeet Kune Do then, like the wheel, will ultimately return to simplicity. Those who tinker with it overtly often do so without completely understanding its form or purpose, creating odd and ludicrous beast because the have been misinformed. Freedom must always have a constant center of truth, order and logic. Without this, what springs forth will always erupt into eventual chaos and disorder. Keep the center then, and always be true to the source. Do not add to it, but express it, express it, express it.

Sifu Ron Prather

December 10th, 2001

[Robbie]

Originally posted by Sifu R. Prather
This just appeared in the Authentic Jun Fan/Jeet Kune Do Forum Newsletter--I thought it might have some relevence here.

Jeet Kune Do: Where is it Going?

Contrary to popular belief, Jeet Kune Do is not a “style” simply because it advocates a core curriculum of techniques, theories, drills, strategies and principles. It is a refined extension of Sijo Lee’s own Gung Fu. It is a “way” or “tao” because its modifications were based on Sijo’s personal criteria and Gung Fu structure. You cannot, in other words, claim to practice or teach Sijo’s Jeet Kune Do without having a working knowledge of its Chinese base—for to do so would be similar to building a bridge to another land without understanding the fundamentals of geometry and load-bearing architecture. All the ornamentation in the world won’t prevent it from collapsing in an assaulting wind.
Sifu Ron Prather

December 10th, 2001

Among us fools who practice the classical mess called gung fu a style is defined by advocating a core curriculum of techniques, theories, drills, strategies and principles. Wang Lang created Praying Mantis using the strategies and principles he saw in the praying mantis and with techniques he learned previously and others he later developed. You say it's a "way or tao" because its modifications were based on Sijo’s personal criteria and Gung Fu structure. By this Praying Mantis is exactly what you claim JFJKD is, just substitute Wang Lang for Bruce Lee and add a few centuries.
The point being you have been told a couple of times that changing the way you define a word does not change the way the rest of the world defines it. If you want to be understood in the world you need to accept that and let the world know what you mean in terms they can understand. Otherwise who are you speaking to?

[Merryprankster]

straightblast5,

I appreciate your points, but I think you are de-emphasizing the importance of ring training.

The "little things," are easy to add... and windpipe attacks, eye gouges, groin strikes and the like are simple to add as offensive weapons. It's not hard to adjust, and if you don't, so what. Kicks, punches and throws work just as well.

For defense, if I can block/evade a kick or knee strike, I can block/evade a kick or knee strike. It doesn't matter if the opponent is aiming for my thigh or groin, the block is still the same. If I can block or slip a punch, I can block or slip attempted eye attacks.

So, practicing solely under those regulations doesn't hurt you at all in a real fight. The only way it might hurt you, is that instead of trying to gouge his eyes, you choke him out instead, because you didn't think about it.

Now, I will agree there are certain rules that are detrimental to self defense, but I think that those rules center around either "no strikes allowed," as in grappling sports, or "no contact to the head," which keeps your guard low, and "no kicking the legs," which speaks for itself. Other than those three things, I can't think of anything that is TRULY detrimental to the ability to streetfight.

[rubthebuddha]

one big difference: you take the purse at the end of a ring match, it's called prize money. you take the purse at the end of a street fight, it's called robbery. :D

[straightblast5]

Merry Prankster,

The types of rules definitely determine the benefits that these ring sports have to actual combat. However, I'll still stick to my opinion that ring sports alone, no matter how realistic, cannot complete a fighter who's training for efficiency in actual combat. I see ring sports as a training tool to enhance attributes, but practiced by themselves, they often condition a practitioner to fight within preset limits, no matter how slight those limits are.

Though I agree with you that attributes gained from ring fighting will enable the fighter to deal with many so-called "street" attacks, the execution and structure of strikes (be it a punch or a kick) and other particular techniques (as you have mentioned, the eye gouge) are different enough under real circumstances to warrant re-examination. A trained ring fighter can definitely be a good street fighter, but I feel that a person training specifically (within a particular structure and mindset) for the street and has the same attributes (from practicing ring sports or otherwise) will be the more efficient fighter.

Of course, the above are opinions based upon my own research and experiences.

Phil
Ng Family Chinese Martial Arts Association (http://www.ngfamilymartialarts.com)