Throw ends MMA fight

[JWTAYLOR]

I've heard more than once here that throws don't do as much damage as many CMA practitioners claim, and that they never end MMA fights between high level opponents.

According to Sherdog,
Vanderlei Silva defeated Kazushi Sakuraba by TKO (Sakuraba could not continue. His shoulder was dislocated when Silva slammed him to escape a guillotine choke). 10:00, 1R

http://www.sherdog.com/cgi-bin/pictures.pl?/pictures/pride17/pride17_14/pride17_42.jpg

Once again, I bow before Silva's awesome might.

JWT

If you pr!ck us, do we not bleed? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that the villany you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction. MOV

[qeySuS]

same thing happened in UFC 34 this weekend, Carlos Newton had Matt Hughes in a tight triangle choke (Matt was standing when Newton locked it). Matt slammed Newton to the canvas isntantly knocking Newton out :) That shows the slam is powerfull, funny sidenote though, it appears that Matt Hughes also passed out at the same moment (propably from the choke), he just came to a few seconds later and Newton was still out, so Matt got the win :) That's at least how it looks like on tape.

Free thinkers are dangerous!

[JWTAYLOR]

Any photos or fight reviews of that?
JWT

If you pr!ck us, do we not bleed? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that the villany you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction. MOV

[qeySuS]

havent seen it on sherdog yet, i saw a clip of it the other day though (the whole thing).

I think it was this one (i got it from ITG):

http://members.home.net/cmoore11/videos/HughesNewton.mpg

Free thinkers are dangerous!

[JWTAYLOR]

Cool, it looked as much like he just dropped Newton becuase of the choke as much as it looked like a throw. I can't see much of the moment of impact as it got blurry, but it looked like Newton landed on his back. I guess his head must have bounced a bit but I'm still surprised he went out like that.

JWT

If you pr!ck us, do we not bleed? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that the villany you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction. MOV

[Clyde the Glide]

According to ADCC News, it may be reviewed by a committee in Las Vegas, as it is possible that Hughes passed out, thus causing the fall that KO'd Newton. Whatever the result, a rematch is certainly in order. It is a hard call either way. I am thinking that the most fair thing may be to declare a no-contest, vacate the title, and let Newton and Hughes fight again for the belt. But slams have stopped many fights, Igor v Shamrock, Tito v Tanner, Silva v Sak, and Newton v Hughes. However, I think submission is still highest ont he list of reasons for stoppage according to stats compiled from UFC and Pride, with KO/TKO from strikes being second. I will,however, continue to practice my takedowns/throws.

Clydeus Maximus: Mutt-fu Grand Master and Dominator of Cocky Teenagers in my youth group.

[JWTAYLOR]

Well then I say that's bullsh!t. The guy that immediately gets up, never really even goes all the way down, is cleary the victor over the guy still laying on the mat unconcious. Call it playground rules, but that just makes sense to me. (But man Newton got that choke in deep, didn't he.)

JWT

If you pr!ck us, do we not bleed? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that the villany you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction. MOV

[GinSueDog]

Frank Shamrock also won via KO caused by a hard takedown. It happens, iti s just not as easy to pull off as people think is all.-ED

"Ninjas are not dangerous. They are more afraid of you than you are of them." --The Tick

[Watchman]

Here's a clip of the Silva slam for your viewing pleasure:

http://chiba.cool.ne.jp/uuufffccc/axemurder.avi

[Clyde the Glide]

I have the entire event on tape, and while Hughes is putting on his t-shirt you can clearly hear him say twice "I was out". It is plain as day. So if the man was unconcious, the fight should have stopped there. But, Hughes had Carlos up on the fence, he collapsed (if this is what really happened) and the fall KO'd Newton. Thus the KO did not come from any effort or technique applied by Hughes, but by chance. What if Newton threw a punch that KO'd Hughes, and then Hughes fell into Newton causing him to stumble and fall, thus getting knocked out, too. Hughes did not obtain a knock out from his own effort, but by chance, so why would he get the win? I am not agreeing either way, Just observing that it was a questionable ending. What if they had started a 10 count. I don't think either fighter would have gotten up to beat it, resulting in a double KO. I do not think you can take the belt away from Hughes, but did he really beat Newton? I think the only just thing is a rematch for the title, ASAP. This is really not a situation that has had to be dealt with within the UFC before. Oh, and the review is not being done by the UFC, but is being looked into by the Nevada Commission. At least that is my understanding.

Clydeus Maximus: Mutt-fu Grand Master and Dominator of Cocky Teenagers in my youth group.

[Xebsball]

Think of the damage if it was a hard floor, ouch!!

-------------------------
"I AM EFFECTIVNESS"

[Sharky]

doesn't work watchman :(

All i wanted was some RICE CAKES! Now? WE MUST BATTLE.

[Sharky]

who is greg loebel?

All i wanted was some RICE CAKES! Now? WE MUST BATTLE.

[Sharky]

watchman :rolleyes:

All i wanted was some RICE CAKES! Now? WE MUST BATTLE.

[Watchman]

LOL!

[Sharky]

Paranoia: noun: a psychological disorder characterized by delusions of persecution or grandeur

All i wanted was some RICE CAKES! Now? WE MUST BATTLE.

[Watchman]

schizo-phre-nia: a psychotic mental illness that is characterised by a twisted view of the real world, by a greatly reduced ability to carry out one's daily tasks, and by abnormal ways of thinking, feeling, and behaving.

[Sharky]

:eek:

All i wanted was some RICE CAKES! Now? WE MUST BATTLE.

[Water Dragon]

However, I think submission is still highest ont he list of reasons for stoppage according to stats compiled from UFC and Pride, with KO/TKO from strikes being second. I will,however, continue to practice my takedowns/throws.

That's definately true Clyde. But you need to think of how many fighters specialize in throws vs. subs or strikes. That might change things. Then again, it might not.

Most actions of men can be explained by observing a pack of dogs. Not wild dogs, just neighborhood dogs who all scurry under the fence on the same night and set off together to reclaim a glimmer of the glory their species possessed before domestication.

[Clyde the Glide]

And they should be an integral part of anyone (and especially a submission specialists) over all game. However, all the takedowns that I have seen result in a KO were genreally "get the underhooks, pick up, and slam". The KO comes as a result of either the opponents head hitting the mat, or from the throwers head slamming into the opponents jaw at impact. I will agree that this takes skill in obtaining good position, good base, getting the underhooks, etc... But in most cases there was also a substantial size/strength advantage too.

Now, in a competition setting (ie UFC, PRide, etc...), where you are in a ring/on a mat, proper falling technique can go a long way in avoiding getting taken out by a throw/takedown. I know on a hard surface it is a different story, but we are talking MMA here. So I believe that fights ending due to take downs will remain in a minority. We have had a huge inflow of wrestlers, people who live and die by the takedown, and still submission and KO remain the top fight finishers.

What does that tell us. Learn takedowns, use them effectively, but don't start discounting striking and submissions. Bottom line, if you are a submission guy, you need to get the fight to the ground to finish it. Flopping to guard ain't the way to go today. IF you cannot get them there any other way, sure, do what works, but seems to me it would be so much better to have strong takedowns that would land you in a dominate position on a somewhat stunned opponent. Uhm... ramble...ramble...babble...babble<Br>

I originally had a point to this, but I forgot where I was going with this post, so I'll stop now.

Clydeus Maximus: Mutt-fu Grand Master and Dominator of Cocky Teenagers in my youth group.

[Water Dragon]

I hear ya Clyde. What I'm asking about is throws vs. takedowns. If you want to stick with wrestling terminology, Fireman Carry's and Suplex's vs. Doubles and Singles.

If people start focusing more on these types of tech's (not to mention high impact throws from other arts) will we see more KO's from throws? Will we get a third type of MMA'er? The clinch fighter? Someone who has the basics of submission fighting down, but focuses more on defense and position on the ground. When standing, he will rush in to force the clinch (and thus negate the striker) and go for a high velocity throw. Now, sprawling is not as important because you may well get rushed chest to chest. Game changes again.

What do you think?

Most actions of men can be explained by observing a pack of dogs. Not wild dogs, just neighborhood dogs who all scurry under the fence on the same night and set off together to reclaim a glimmer of the glory their species possessed before domestication.

[JWTAYLOR]

One of my biggest problems is facing the front suplex. Chest to chest throw and sprawling don't mean squat.

JWT

If you pr!ck us, do we not bleed? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that the villany you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction. MOV

[qeySuS]

Newton could propably have broken the falls with his hands but he chose to keep the choke on (i think most people would have that was TIGHT).

I must agree that submissions are the #1 way to win a MMA bout, it just seems scary because a striekr can see 10 openings land hard strikes in them all and the guy can still be standing (in bad shape of course) then the same guy sees maybe one opening for a submission and wins the match.

I always feel sorry for a guy that's been striking the hell out of an opponent being a really dominant fighter and then loose because he had a glimpse of carelessness and got caught in a choke/lock.

Free thinkers are dangerous!

[Clyde the Glide]

I believe one of Ryu's heros (Kimura) was known for his extremely powerful, high impact throws. If not him, I am sure Ryu can give us some names of a few Judoka. Anyway, they often ended up ko'ing or disabling an opponent. Obviously, throws that take your opponent straight back have high impact potential. Also, any throw that allows you to drop your full weight onto your opponent at impact would be right up there, too. I loved doing a good tai-otoshi and landing chest to chest on a guy - squish. O soto gari can be a brain buster too. However, lack of clothing can really limit ones arsenal of throws. Takedowns, like the double-leg, can be good. Especially if you get in deep, and get good elevation before scooping the legs. This is a good way to get that KO from the head smacking the mat. But I think this kind of fighter may have to be too specialized, and possibly too one dimensional for MMA. But as you pointed out, if they had good defense, it is possible.

Clydeus Maximus: Mutt-fu Grand Master and Dominator of Cocky Teenagers in my youth group.

[Water Dragon]

Well, hopefully I'll find out. Right now, I'm working a lot of Shuai Chiao that's beginning to be influenced heavily by Greco-Roman and believe it or not, Southern Mantis. I'll be back on the mat in January with a Caique purple rep, so we'll see. I'm just looking for peoples opinion on the mix right now.

Most actions of men can be explained by observing a pack of dogs. Not wild dogs, just neighborhood dogs who all scurry under the fence on the same night and set off together to reclaim a glimmer of the glory their species possessed before domestication.

[DragonzRage]

In the case of Newton and Hughes, I haven't seen the fight but IMO, whoever is standing at the end of the fight is the winner, even if he is almost unconscious! What does it matter that Newton got the triangle on if in the process he got his a$$ knocked out? But I dunno what Hughes' condition was immediately after the fight. If they were both pretty much out, then perhaps it should be declared no winner by way of Double KO (just like in old school Streetfighter 2 and Mortal Kombat, LOL) Then there should be a rematch. I think throws can be hella effective if you apply them correctly. Anyone ever see Frank Shamrock vs Zinoviev?? Good lord! Perhaps fighters should start exploring and applying devastating throws more. This would be a much more entertaining and impressive strategy for free style wrestlers as opposed to the stupid friggin ground n pound. Perhaps this possibility may also benefit prospective MMA competitors from a san shou background as well.

"The UFC spawned a new breed of "mixed martial artists." World-class wrestlers learned to kickbox. Champion kickboxers learned to grapple. (The karate experts learned to stay home.)"

[Merryprankster]

If they learned to throw thai style knees while in, it might make for an interesting "clinch fighter,"

JWT, for chest to chest suplex, hips back and away. Post your head on his shoulder, and one hand or both hands on his hip(s). He CANNOT THROW YOU IF HE CAN'T HIP IN. This buys you time for the next bit of magic.

I'm going to assume he has double underhooks. Overhook hard on both sides, near the elbow, but above it. If you haven't already got your hands on his hips put them there. Now, lock your hands together, and squeeze in with your arms/elbows to relieve his grip on your body. Try to bring his elbows together if you can. Pummel for inside control with one of your arms, and use that to continue creating space until you are out of danger.

[Mr. Nemo]

More fighters in mixed martial arts have been using throws as a means of doing damage lately: Hayato Sakurai and Jermaine Andre are two examples. Shamrock beat Zinoviev with a slam, Tito beat Tanner with a slam (or an (un)interntional headbutt, depending on who you ask). Mixed martial arts is still evolving - I think it's great how the sport continues to add dimensions.

[Tigerstyle]

Merryprankster,
I have a friend that likes to throw people when he's got them overhooked like you described. It's like a chest to chest suplex, but it's more of a fall and twist so that he ends up on top of them. Sometimes he pretends to set himself up to be bearhugged so he can get the overhook position and throw.

That cocky piece of... :)

[Nutt'nhunny]

Fuc_k you Cartman- fu_ck you right up the ass- Kyle from South Park

[LEGEND]

This topic is why I encourage CMA guys to do SAN SHOU...many SAN SHOU scoring is done by ELEVATION TAKEDOWNs...imagine picking up someone and slamming them on the CEMENT/STREET/WOOD FLOOR...RIP!!! 2nd degree folks...SAN SHOU guys are excellent throwers by the way!

A

[rogue]

I guess that all those guys just couldn't handle a throw, everyone knows you just have to slap the ground as you land and you're good to go.

"Americans don't have the courage to come here," Mullah Mohammed Omar, leader of the Taliban


There is only one tactical principle which is not subject to change; it is, 'To use the means at hand to inflict the maximum amount of wounds, death, and destruction on the enemy in the minimum amount of time.' Patton

[Merryprankster]

I hope that was sarcasm Rogue.

The throw you described is a salto. The counter is to step forward as they are arching their back and turning for the throw and thrust your hips forward and down, driving your knees to the mat. You usually either wind up in mount, or with him directly underneath you.

Salto is a wicked throw and requires a great back arch!

I completely agree about San Shou! If there were a San Shou place in my area, I'd go if they had day classes!

[Boulder Student]

Tito Ortiz KOs Evan Tanner in less than a minute with a throw.

Silva dislocates Sakuraba's shoulder with a throw.

Hughes KOs Newton with a throw.

These are just the fights that have ended with a throw in the last 12 months!

Also, MixedMartialArts.com is reporting that the Nevada commission upheld the decision by John McCarthy to stop the fight and award the win to Hughes. Rematch is coming soon...maybe January.

One must toughen up without losing one's tenderness.

[JWTAYLOR]

MP, that is the throw that I, by far, use the most. It's what got me doing the back bridge every single night. But it's a great throw. There's one guy in our school in particular that just out strikes me every times we go at it. One, he's bigger and stronger, and two, he's got more experience than me. And he also seems to just have allot more natural talent. After I get tired of playing punching bag I give up and throw. I pour the Salt on and it works just about every time.

I'll work on your suplex defense but now I don't have a partner that can do it as well. But I'll drag somebody out there.

And while I'm on it, I would, once again, like to ask if anyone has any wrestling/grappling experience and lives in Austin, TX I am still very much looking for someone to roll every week or so.

JWT

If you pr!ck us, do we not bleed? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that the villany you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction. MOV

[JWTAYLOR]

I would like to add that it has been quite some months now since I rolled with anyone of any skill level and I'm starting to really suck. So one, you'd doing me a favor, and two, you'd likely to get to repeadetly submit someone over and over again. WHAT FUN FOR YOU!


Really, I suck bad. Come on over and beat the hell out of me. I'll be at Brian Duffy's Kenpo Karate every Saturday morning. Come before 11 or after 1, I'm teaching then.

(Is this getting humiliating yet?)

JWT

If you pr!ck us, do we not bleed? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that the villany you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction. MOV

[rogue]

Sarcasm from me, MerryPrankster? The ground slapping technique has worked for me everytime, even against a DDT. That, along with pressure points/Dim Mak and some good chi development I haven't lost any fight I've had in the last 3 months.

"Americans don't have the courage to come here," Mullah Mohammed Omar, leader of the Taliban


There is only one tactical principle which is not subject to change; it is, 'To use the means at hand to inflict the maximum amount of wounds, death, and destruction on the enemy in the minimum amount of time.' Patton

[Merryprankster]

Ok. I thought you just meant "slapping the ground," vice using the proper breakfall to distribute the impact over as wide an area as possible.

My bad.

I can name some throws that are hard to break fall from, but you are right about most of them being handled with a breakfall.

[Nutt'nhunny]

unless you really really really train a few throws with weights and forms so that you can always get the throw it will be hard to do against a wrestler...unless of course you hit them first.

Of course, I wouldn't trade shuai chiao for any other art. Personally I think Shuai Chiao, Hsing I and mantis hand speed and hand changes make for the best streetfighting combo.. I would say wing chun, but mantis is about grabbing and so it shuai chiao, so It makes for a good combo. Eagle claw would work with shuai chiao too. Very cool stuff.

[BAI HE]

Boulder Student hit the nail on head:

"Throws are are extremely damaging."

If you get tossed like Sak did on concrete, you don't just dislocate your shoulder, you go to the ER with a busted clavicle and a concussion as side orders.

That is why there is no such thing as NHB. Nobody fights NHB. There sre rules for sports and no rules in reality.
Think about what you are training for. Think about who you are. Think about what you are realitically capable of physcologically and
physically. Then stop thinking and do.

I guess.

[jjj]

The 'Throws' I remember seeing in MMA are simply double leg takedowns that finish with a slam or guillotine counters (except the triangle counter used against Newton, I dont expect to see that occur ever again lol). I can't recall ever seeing any other throws that almost or did end a fight offhand...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"It's not really NHB because they won't let me bring a platoon of Navy SEAL's with Blackhawk fire support into the ring!"
-Watchman

[jjj]

Oh yeah almost forgot Severn haha!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"It's not really NHB because they won't let me bring a platoon of Navy SEAL's with Blackhawk fire support into the ring!"
-Watchman

[BAI HE]

There is a big difference between a throw and a takedown.

[jjj]

BAI HE-

Uuh, I am not sure I agree with that statement, but anyhow I think you misunderstood the point I was trying to make. I was trying to remember if there have been many NHB fights ended by a throw. I cant think of any offhand. I was not counting double legs that finish with a slam as a throw.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"It's not really NHB because they won't let me bring a platoon of Navy SEAL's with Blackhawk fire support into the ring!"
-Watchman

[jimmy23]

Jon Wayne, ask this wquestion at www.mixedmartialarts.com, (http://www.mixedmartialarts.com,) Im sure theres some grapplers in your area.


"You guys have obviously never done any real fighting if you are mocking spitting"
Spinning Backfist

[SevenStar]

Throws can definitely be brutal. can you imagine the effect yama arashi or another power throw would have on the street? Not to mention a sacrifice throw, like tani otoshi. WaterDragon and I can vouch for the impact a good shoulder throw can cause.

"Just because I joke around sometimes doesn't mean I'm serious about kung-fu.
" - nightair