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12-11-2001, 09:26 AM
When a person does an intense stretching program and gets sore from it, are you supposed to stretch the next day when you are sore. I have heard some success stories about martial artists and when they started training they were too tight and could not stretch. It would go on to say that they were in pain for the first year or so but once they recovered, their legs were very flexible.
Also, I know that when a person lifts weights and becomes sore they are not supposed to lift the same muscle the next day to allow for muscle recooperation/repair. Does this same rule apply to stretching?

Shaolin36

Apprentice
12-11-2001, 12:13 PM
and read lots of places, that your not supposed to stretch until pain, your only suppose to stretch until u feel, well a stretch :D what kind of "Intense Stretching Program" did you have in mind?

lowsweep
12-11-2001, 02:54 PM
There are two main methods of stretching. There is the "relax completely and stretch gently" method and the "yank his legs apart 'till he does the splits" method. If you stretch hard, so you are feeling pain, you might be much more flexible after you have stretched but you will soon tighten up. I am a big believer in relaxing the muscles completely, making sure they are warm, and gently stretching for a longer period of time. While you might not be able to do the splits on your first day, the flexibility will stay with you more than if you have stretched until you feel pain. If you really want to know how to stretch well, TAKE YOGA !! These guys really know how to relax and stretch. You learn so many great stretches and ways of stretching and it is definately better than trying to do it on your own. You should never be sore after you stretch, if so you are stretching way too hard.

Brett Again
12-12-2001, 01:47 PM
There are two main methods of stretching. There is the "relax completely and stretch gently" method and the "yank his legs apart 'till he does the splits" method.
Disagree strongly.

The second of these is a ridiculous Van Damme movie stunt and will only injure someone... not make them more flexible. I hope you were joking.

The first is only one of several "main methods of stretching." And, in my opinion, is only of use for a limited time at the end of a work out to help avoid stiffness and soreness.

lowsweep
12-12-2001, 03:33 PM
...I was exagerating just a little bit you might say...
There used to be schools and chinese opera schools that would actually yank your legs apart until you could do the splits. I was exgagerating. I did not mean this. I was referring to the way many people stretch, which is too hard and not long enough. You will stretch better and over time become much more flexible if you stretch gently. You should not be forcing your muscles to stretch, they just don't appreciate being pulled apart hard. It is much better to relax them and stretch them gently. I messed up my knees stretching hard and learned my lesson very well. The best way to stretch, in my humble (and yet all knowing) opinion, is to relax your muscles, make sure they are warm, and stretch gently for a longer period or time per muscle. (this means no 30 second stretches, not gonna get you too far, try 20 mins a muscle if you want a good stretch) Also, make sure you are doing good stretches. Some stretches work better than others. For example: many people arch their back when stretching hamstrings. While this stretches the same muscle, it is stretching it much more in your back than in your legs, even though it all feels the same. If you straighten your back, you are stretching more in your legs, this will be more useful in kicks, etc. I would strongly advise taking some yoga to learn some great stretches and methods of stretching.

ElPietro
12-13-2001, 06:45 AM
Flexibility requires two things....stretching and patience...there is no quick easy way to do it.

We could just grab a scalpel and cut half of our connective tissue and tendons to increase flexibility as well...

Brett Again
12-13-2001, 06:48 AM
Some stretches work better than others. For example: many people arch their back when stretching hamstrings. While this stretches the same muscle, it is stretching it much more in your back than in your legs, even though it all feels the same.
I strongly agree with this. I would re-phrase it as "Perform the stretch exactly correctly." Too many people "tweak" or "fudge" on a given stretch to, say, get their head closer to the floor. As if the goal was to get your head as close to the floor as possible. They need to remember the goal is to stretch the muscle. An example would be doing a sitting straddle stretch and pointing your toes. This relieves tension on the hamstrings and lets you get your nose closer to the floor. But it then stretches your hamstrings and groing less, which is the entire point of the stretch.


(this means no 30 second stretches, not gonna get you too far, try 20 mins a muscle if you want a good stretch)
I disagree. Something more than 30 seconds but less than two minutes has been proven to be the best duration for a stretch. Stretching for such a long time as twenty minutes (besides being impractical) causes weakening of muscle fiber and connective tissue. While this may make you more "flexible" it will also make the muscle in question more injury prone. Also, while this may improve your "passive range of motion", allowing you to get in to a great looking "stretch," it will not necessarily translate to "dynamic range of motion" which will allow you to kick higher. There are different muscle fibers, some tied to passive flexibility, some tied to dynamic flexibility. You need to have a stretching regimen that will attend to both.


I strongly encourage anyone with an interest to purchase the aforementione book "Stretching Scientifically" by Tom Kurz. It contains all the best info on stretching, much of which is derived from highly documented US and Soviet Olympic gymnastics teams' studies.

12-13-2001, 09:50 AM
Thanks for the replies fellas, but back to my original question- Should you stretch if your muscles are already sore from stretching. (every day) or should you wait until your body is not sore. The soreness is attained through stretching?

Shaolin36:D

Brett Again
12-13-2001, 09:53 AM
LOL. We do get longwinded occaisionally, now don't we?

My answer? Yes, keep stretching, but gently and in moderation. The soreness will fade and you will be able to stretch without soreness. Your muscles will become accustomed to stretching just as they can become accustomed to weight lifting.

lowsweep
12-13-2001, 04:14 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Brett Again
[B]
I disagree. Something more than 30 seconds but less than two minutes has been proven to be the best duration for a stretch. Stretching for such a long time as twenty minutes (besides being impractical) causes weakening of muscle fiber and connective tissue.

Wow, I have never heard that. I better ease up a little! thanks. Also, thanks for the book recomendation, I'll see if I can find a copy.

12-13-2001, 04:24 PM
For what its woth, I read an article written by a doctor that stated that stretching a muscle takes 18 seconds. How he derived this figure-Idont know but when stretching at the begining of class I go 15-18 seconds.
Shaolin36

Brian_CA
12-13-2001, 06:02 PM
Interesting discussion. I would like to submit that stretch for 20 minutes is not impractical, but smart. As a yoga instructor that works with athletes everyday I highly recommend a 20 min to half hour warm of a systematic stretching routine. I have witnessed as a result of the change in workout, these athletes improve performance, increase flexibility and strength, in addition the cut their rate of injury done dramatically. Now, I am not saying that you hold 4-5 stretches for the whole time, rather you pick 25-30 that target the work that you are doing. When done correctly, you should feel warmed up and be sweating.

Hope this helps.

Brian
San Francisco, CA

Brett Again
12-14-2001, 06:25 AM
Brian, I don't disagree with you. If you'll look at lowsweeps comment that I was referring to...
try 20 mins a muscle if you want a good stretch
...he specified 20 minutes A MUSCLE. That is what led me to my statement. 20-25 minutes overall is certainly not impractical. And if one does a wide variety of activity-related stretches (as you suggest) one will likely end up doing each individual stretch for an appropriate period of time, between 30 seconds and two minutes.

On a side note, I'd be interested in your take on something as a yoga instructor. My sifu only has us do (what I call) passive stretching. That is, letting gravity take over and relaxing into the stretch. On my own I also do (what I call) active stretching. Basically, very slowly going through the motion of the kick in question and stretching as much as possible using only the muscles involved in the kick. (Very reminiscent of the way you stretch when you get out of bed in the morning.) I find that this helps me immensly in getting warmed up quickly and increasing my "usable" range of motion. I notice many of my fellow students who don't do this have greater range of "unusable" motion than me, but less "usable." Meaning, they can grab their foot and lift it way over their head in a crane stance, but when it comes to actually kicking, they can't get nearly as high.

Have you any experience with this phenomenon? (I didn't discover it... its in the book I mentioned. But I'm looking for other input.)

Brian_CA
12-16-2001, 03:43 PM
Hey Brett,

Both ways have merit. I personally prefer a more active stretch. When you stretch think of a rubberband. When you pull one side of rubberband only, nothing happens. Grab both ends pull them in opposite directions, it stretchs. The same thing hold true in body.

Example: a basic forward bend.

stand with you feet togather, touch the floor with your hands. If you cannot reach, bend your knees until you can. Walk in place while forward a couple of times.

First try straighten your legs while touching the floor, forehead on your knees (note it is okay to keep your knees bent, the goal is a stretch, not a strain. This is the passive version.

Now try reaching back and grabbing your heels just below your ankles. Thumbs gripping tightly on the outside of the foot, fingers around the inside. From here, pull on your heels and lift your hips and slowly bring your legs to straight. The more you lift, the harder you pull on the heels. The is an active version. I would recommend this version for beginners.

Hope this helps

Brian
San Francisco, CA

TigerJaw
12-18-2001, 03:00 AM
I'm in Physio at the moment for a patially ruptured hamstring insertion. :(

I asked my physio this very same question last week and she told me that there is a point of a stretch called P1 where you just start to feel the pain of the injury or soreness. If you stretch to this point you'll 'tease the muscle fibres into alignment' so that they'll heal up stronger and more flexible than before. If you stretch beyond this point, you'll increase the trauma which in the case of injury will slow the healing and in the case of delayed onset muscle sorness will weaken the muscle and make it less flexible.

That's what she said anyhow.

Phill

anerlich
12-20-2001, 08:57 PM
Interesting, tigerjaw, and prob. the most pertinent reply to the original Q so far.

Sho Pi
12-24-2001, 09:05 AM
Brett,

I would agree with Brian and your observations about usable flexability.

I used to only do passive stretches as they were taught in grade school and high school. I was always fairly flexible. Then I started martial arts and kicking and low split stances were really week. I started researching stretching and came across Kurtz's book about it.

His stuff made the most sense and I found other work to back it up. I started to work his active recomendations, both dynamic and isometric, into my routine and my flexibilty and strength have greatly increased.

Then I got ****y and laid off for a while and thougth I could get away with the same stuff. Hurt a quad and am slowly working back into it. :o

But back to the question. Stretching mildly or lightly when you are sore is ok but don't overdue it. It is like any sore muscle between workouts. It is ok to mildly use it to work out the acid build up but do not over tax it again for a bit.

Sho Pi