Do you think your style has all the answers?

[Merryprankster]

Well, do you?

Mine doesn't. (I consider myself a 'BJJer' for the most part.)

[rubthebuddha]

i think it does, but that may be because i don't know all the questions. it definitely satisfies my needs as a style, system and art, but i do like to do a smidgeon more fitness work than the style recommends (bicep curls and wing tsun are as poop and salad dressing, but hey, i like having strong arms).

[MIKSANSOO]

i don't think any style has all the answers. it's just what works best for yourself i guess. i push my art to get as many solutions as i can. i can add or take away without changing my art, only custom fitting it for me!:)

[Water Dragon]

Depends, what are the questions?

[Paul]

yep, it has the answers to the questions that I have been asking. Does it have ALL the answers? I doubt that any one martial art does.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Absoloutly.

The wind velocity of a swallow in flight?

We've got that.

Why are avocado pits so big?

We've got that.

Why do men have nipples?

We know that too.

How to get that really hot girl to go out with you.

A closed door secret.

We've got ALL the answers. :p

[shaolinboxer]

In my short investigation (bit over a year) of the style I now study (aikido, shinbudokai style) I feel comfortable saying that aikido does answer many of the questions I had remaining inside my head.

i.e. How can I get the same feeling of martial expression without having to spar?

How can I defend myself without having to beat somebody down?

How can I practice without feeling overly competative?

How can I go full out without high risk of injury?

What's the frikin point of all of this crap anyway?

Where do these techniques come from?

How can I perform techniques on some who out weighs me by 85 lbs?

Not that aikido directly answers all of these questions, but it has been a good guide for me on a personal and technical level.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

like anything else in life, the most important thing is to be able to bullsh!t the answers you don't have.

[Merryprankster]

Um, the answers to all reasonable self-defense situations...ie, nobody give me the 13 on one example.

As for the air speed velocity of an unladen swallow,

African or European?

[Budokan]

No, tae-bo doesn't have all the answers. That's why I'm switching to Fu-Box.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Doh!

Now I'll have to find a new style!

[Chang Style Novice]

My magic Eight Ball style is undefeatable!

"Answer hazy, try again later."

[Merryprankster]

I have to admit...

Wonderful high-jacking job folks!

Beers all around. Except GDA. He gets a shirley temple cause he gets all cross when he's schnookered.

[Chang Style Novice]

I'll give the brief serious answer now; no. I'll give you a longer one later.

But how could I resist the Magic Eight Ball wisecrack? I'm simply not that strong.

[Stranger]

Watchman's hairSTYLE has all the answers, because it's business in the front and party in the back.:p

[Dark Knight]

No one art will have all the answers. Ive been in the arts for over 20 years and been invilved with many styles. They all have srtengths and weaknesses. If your instrucotr is telling you his is superior or has all the answers, he has limited knowledge or is lying to you to keep you money.

What works for one person may not work for another. People try to fit a style to a body type, but that is not a good guage. How you will fight effectivly will change from how your instructor does. keep an open mind and add to what you have.

[Kiasyd]

Oh yes, mine does, since I'm a begginer, but maybe in a distant future, things change... :)

-- Kiasyd

[Dark Knight]

"Oh yes, mine does, since I'm a begginer, but maybe in a distant future, things change... "

Why do you think it does? and why a distant future and not a near future?

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

"He gets a shirley temple cause he gets all cross when he's schnookered."

lol . .. shnookered . . hehe

.... . you are kidding right?

i get a beer too don't i?

please.

COME ON MAN . .. . this aint fair.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

i stand by my bullsh!t answer.

it's important, no matter what style you do, that you are able to improvise for the things you weren't directly prepared for.

of course actually training in other arts to compliment your system is ideal, but that's not always the way things work out.

however, i'm not so sure it's the system that has to be flexible as much as the teacher and especially the student, so i probably didn't answer the question at all.

[Merryprankster]

Fine.

You can have a beer.

Barkeep! One O' Douls please! :D

[Mutant]

I don't think any one style has ALL the answers. Some are certainly more well-rounded than others, but no one style is perfect for all people in all modern day situations.
But I think that just 'dabbleing' in different styles won't gain a person much skill either. I think fully committing to and learning well-rounded system is a good foundation...from there one can then explore and supplement their personal training and development, learning different styles and/or techniques from other systems.
This process has been repeated through out history; thats how the 'old school' styles developed in the first place.
But I like MonkeySlaps answer best, I want to learn from his school! :D

[Dark Knight]

"But I think that just 'dabbleing' in different styles won't gain a person much skill either. I think fully committing to and learning well-rounded system is a good foundation...from there one can then explore and supplement their personal training and development, learning different styles and/or techniques from other systems. "

This is soooo true. too many people feel that one year here and one year there can qualify them, and teach them.

If you want to add to a system thats fine, but remember to grow in your base art.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

(in the voice of eric cartman)

SCREWWWWWWW you guys . .. .

i'm goin home.

[Chang Style Novice]

GDA -

Much like this aborted fetus, I wasn't born yesterday!

Those South Park guys are sick in the best way possible.

[apoweyn]

i think the value of a base style is primarily to help you learn how to learn.

i started in taekwondo. without disparaging the style, most people wouldn't consider it the most well rounded. it doesn't address the use of weapons. depending on the teacher, it might be focused heavily on sport applications. etc.

(forgive the generalizations. there's a point.)

but that style does ingrain, perhaps through exaggeration, certain body mechanics that give you a frame of reference for then viewing other styles.

obviously, it doesn't make you an expert in anything but taekwondo. but it, or any other style, does give you experience. and with experience, a person can begin to see the commonality in other styles. what they'll miss, perhaps, is the particulars of each.

it's a bit like studying chemistry in school. perhaps you were struck by chemistry itself, and you went on to learn more and more of it. eventually, you became a professor of chemistry.

alternatively, you studied chemistry. did fine at it. didn't retain all of it. but what you did do was learn the scientific method. that really made an impression. so while you're no chemist, your understanding of the scientific method will aid you in your study of physics, psychology, or whatever.


stuart b.

[Ginger Fist]

--no ... the style doesn't have all the answers ... or any answers 4 that matter ... the system has the key 2 all the answers ... care 2 guess where the answers are 2 b found?

--4 those who said their style doesn't have all the answers ... u r all pathetic - weak minded - lazy bum - goobers who don't understand the ? much less have a real opinion as 2 ? the answer is

[les paul]

I think all complete martial systems have an answer to most of the problems. Many of these problems have more than one solution. Most systems have answers to grapplers, punchers and kickers.

I don't think cross-training is the answer. It's a sure bet to become a jack of all trades .......master of none.


Plus .....

I don't see the Gracie's cross training. I can't help thinking after seeing him (I think it was Royce, but I get most of them confused with each other) defeat Dan Severen, that it was his skill that made him what he was, not the art!

I high level of skill achieved doesn't usally come from cross-training.

Spanky

[old jong]

To have all the answers means to know all the questions! Who knows all the questions ?
The best thing IMO is to sharpen your tool or style to the point that you dont have to answer!...You ask questions! ;)

[Merryprankster]

Old Jong, you make an interesting point:

I read it this way--become so good at what you do so that YOU dictate the terms of the engagement. Yes?

Ginger Fist--thanks for another particularly unenlightening post. By the way, your tendency to use numbers and your lack of both punctuation and capitalization make it hard to read what little you have to say.

I tend to agree that a "core," is necessary, but I still think cross training is the answer: I have standup grappling from wrestling and combat type grappling from BJJ. If I ever do Judo, then the concepts are still similar... I have no doubt that these skills will be the "core," of my movements and approach for many years, but it won't keep me from doing other things and integrating where and how I see fit. You have to know enough about the approach of the "other guy," to recognize the danger... for instance, to use a grappling example, you need to know how a heel hook is applied because if you DON'T, you won't recognize it when the other guy throws it and you'll have to submit (unless you LIKE torn LCL's and MCL's)

[Robbie]

Actually Merrry, I mostly agree with Ginger, of course it's always nice to know my Shifu can switch tech whenever I resist or try the counter.

[Stacey]

My style doesn't have all the answers.


I do, my style points the way.

[SanHeChuan]

maybe i should add these to my quotes...?

To have all the answers means to know all the questions! Who knows all the questions ? The best thing IMO is to sharpen your tool or style to the point that you dont have to answer!...You ask questions! (Old jong)

become so good at what you do so that YOU dictate the terms of the engagement. (Merryprankster)

Do not play the fools game, practice, practice so hard and so much that you dont have to worry what the otherguy is doing because you have already defeated him.

[Ginger Fist]

To have all the answers means to know all the questions! Who knows all the questions ?

--no it doesn't ... it means exactly ? it says ... until the ? is asked the answer remains quiet

The best thing IMO is to sharpen your tool or style to the point that you dont have to answer!

--close but not right ... hone ur abilities 2 a level that the ? is made irrelevant

...You ask questions!

--in a fight ... never ask a ? that u don't all ready know the answer 2

[Ginger Fist]

Ginger Fist--thanks for another particularly unenlightening post.

--it's unenlightening to u becuz u r dumber than pig cr*ap

By the way, your tendency to use numbers and your lack of both punctuation and capitalization make it hard to read what little you have to say.

--btw tuff sh*it ... i prefer jerk off know nothings like u kept in the dark ... with ur head up ur as*s all the time u should like it there

[Satanachia]

It is the truly wise man, who admits he does not have the answer to everything.:D

Or something to that effect.

[Ginger Fist]

Actually Merrry, I mostly agree with Ginger, of course it's always nice to know my Shifu can switch tech whenever I resist or try the counter.

--ur shifu has the answers becuz he knows where 2 look ... good 4 him & good 4 u if u stay with him ... betcha if u break movement on him from the same 1st move 3 times in a row he gives u a different answer every time ... try it & then ask urself y & how

[Kiasyd]

"Oh yes, mine does, since I'm a begginer, but maybe in a distant future, things change... "

Why do you think it does? and why a distant future and not a near future?


As I said, I'm a beginner, therefore I don't know ALL the questions! And I said "distant future" because that's when I won't be a beginner anymore :)

-- Kiasyd

[Reima Kostaja]

because it's business in the front and party in the back.

Good one Stranger, you have captured the very essence of mulletude! :D

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

you guys are teasing me with all this talk of beer and rotting fetuses.

... it just aint right.

[Ginger Fist]

My style doesn't have all the answers. I do, my style points the way.

--100% correct ... go2 the head of the class

[apoweyn]

okay, i'm back to thinking that ginger fist is a clown. shame, that.


les paul,

i don't think that 'jack of all trades, master of none' thing makes much sense, honestly.

the strength of that argument is based on the idea that focusing on one thing will yield more insight than trying to focus on many things, right? that your effort is concentrated rather than dispersed.

but the counter to that argument is to ask, "what do you do when you're faced with a situation for which you haven't trained?" for instance, you're faced with a knife or you get taken down in a crowd and you're on your back. what happens then.

lots of people say that their style is complete. that it covers grappling, kicking, punching, weapons, and so on. and i'm not going to dispute that. who am i to say what your style does and does not address.

but if your style covers that much ground, then you personally are learning striking, grappling, weapons, and so on. so your concentration is dispersed between several areas of expertise that are, by definition, different from one another.

given that fact, what's the real difference between studying a style that's complete and crosstraining? in either case, you're asked to reconcile seemingly different ideas into a coherent whole. the differences, to me, will be in terms of customs, terminology, and that sort of thing.

i'm sure it's true that if you concentrate solely on punching for your whole MA career, you'll be a very good puncher. but if you plan to have a wider base of skills than that, then one way or another, your attention will be dispersed. and that poses the same problems for anyone, whether crosstrainer or no.

note that there's a difference between crosstraining and dabbling. as obvious and relevant a difference as there is between good TCMA and a mckwoon.


stuart b.

[jimmy23]

Apoweyn makes some very good points.

I think another factor , a plus for crosstraining (I hate that term, BTW, you train to fight, period, and that covers all ranges), is that it can increase your effective ability in other skills. Using the example of the punching specialist, there are many examples (esp in the erly days of MMA) of great punchers getting nuetralized very quickly by grapplers. Lately, what youre seeing are a lot of great countergrapplers who are able to punch effectively against good wrestlers., but this requires a ceretain skill in grappling to achieve.

[Stacey]

get on your knees and lick my power bundle.

[The Whyzyrd]

GunnedDownAtrocity has the right of it - "...it's important, no matter what style you do, that you are able to improvise for the things you weren't directly prepared for."

That's the heart of it and (to me) that's what it means to have a "complete" system. No system can think, in advance, of EVERY possible situation you might be in BUT if you can improvise to meet the situation in which you find yourself then you do have all the answers.

You just can't answer them until they are asked (ie. until you are in some situation and you find a way out of it).



Oh, one other thing..."get on your knees and lick my power bundle." - Stacey - I Love You!!!!!:p :eek:

[apoweyn]

quote: "Oh, one other thing..."get on your knees and lick my power bundle." - Stacey - I Love You!!!!!"





your call, mate. but the current theory is that stacey is a strapping six-footer with a lovely adam's apple.


stuart b.

[rubthebuddha]

don't forget the chicken sack

[Ginger Fist]

okay, i'm back to thinking that ginger fist is a clown. shame, that.

--the shame is u r such a hubris ridden sack of sh*it that just can't accept the fact u know next to nothing ... at best ... go back 2 playing with ur bruce lee blow up doll ... pu*ssy boy

[apoweyn]

try to follow the correlation here, ginger fist. you present intelligent points in a constructive manner, i respect you. you insult people for having a differing opinion from your own, i don't. that simple.

if you can't dig that, fine. i've always got the ignore function waiting. but personally, i'd rather resolve this.


stuart b.

[Dark Knight]

Ginger, you have never given us a reason to see your points as valid...even if they were. Try english, and an intellegent conversation.

[Ginger Fist]

try to follow the correlation here, ginger fist. you present intelligent points in a constructive manner, i respect you.

--try to follow the correlation ap ... u disagree with ? i post & then cop an attitude ... 4 some mutt blend nothing ur attitude is over the top

you insult people for having a differing opinion from your own, i don't. that simple.

--u started it with the back 2 clown thing ... fu*ck u ... stay stupid ... best punishment 4 a neverwas like u

if you can't dig that, fine. i've always got the ignore function waiting.

--u've always had it waiting ... keeping ur head up ur as*s function works great 4 u

but personally, i'd rather resolve this.

--u had ur chance ... the door is closed ... go back 2 jerking off in front of ur jun fan poster lil sissy boy

[Merryprankster]

Originally posted by Ginger Fist
--no ... the style doesn't have all the answers ... or any answers 4 that matter ... the system has the key 2 all the answers ... care 2 guess where the answers are 2 b found?

--4 those who said their style doesn't have all the answers ... u r all pathetic - weak minded - lazy bum - goobers who don't understand the ? much less have a real opinion as 2 ? the answer is

Ginger, your first post on the thread was the above.

If that's not insulting to the people on this board with an opinion that is different than yours, I'm not sure what is.

It renders your comments about you NOT insulting people invalid.

How old are you? 13? I know what your profile says but if you were born in '68, then Usama Bin Laden is Jewish.

So folks, I propose a two man superfight between Ginger Fist and Ralek. Any takers?

[apoweyn]

there you have it, ginger fist. you took an unwarranted shot at my friend merryprankster. i didn't start this. you and i were getting along relatively peaceably. but i'm fed up with the way you address everyone here. so i'm done with you.


stuart b.

[Ginger Fist]

If that's not insulting to the people on this board with an opinion that is different than yours, I'm not sure what is.

--ur unsure about many things sissy boy ... don't limit ur lack of certainty 2 just my post

It renders your comments about you NOT insulting people invalid.

--that's ur opinion ... as worthless as apesh*it4brains jun fan jerk off boy

How old are you? 13? I know what your profile says but if you were born in '68, then Usama Bin Laden is Jewish.

--leave my people out of it tu*rd sucker ... u r just another as*shole who can't accept the fact u know next 2 nothing ... at best ... 3 generations ... straight from the temple 2 my hands ... i am 4th generation & u can't touch that girlie boy ... u and apecr*aphead have a nice circle jerk ok?

[Merryprankster]

Ginger, you are by FAR a better troller than Ralek!

I thought he was tops, but I think you've got him beat.

Would it interest you at all to know that I don't do Jun Fan?

Just out of curiosity, what style do you train, who is your sifu/instructor, how long have you been doing it and what laurels do you possess?

[les paul]

apoweyn
Lexicologic Engineer

Registered: Jan 1970
Location: Maryland
Posts: 1038
for les paul
okay, i'm back to thinking that ginger fist is a clown. shame, that.


les paul,

i don't think that 'jack of all trades, master of none' thing makes much sense, honestly.

the strength of that argument is based on the idea that focusing on one thing will yield more insight than trying to focus on many things, right? that your effort is concentrated rather than dispersed.

but the counter to that argument is to ask, "what do you do when you're faced with a situation for which you haven't trained?" for instance, you're faced with a knife or you get taken down in a crowd and you're on your back. what happens then.

lots of people say that their style is complete. that it covers grappling, kicking, punching, weapons, and so on. and i'm not going to dispute that. who am i to say what your style does and does not address.

but if your style covers that much ground, then you personally are learning striking, grappling, weapons, and so on. so your concentration is dispersed between several areas of expertise that are, by definition, different from one another.

given that fact, what's the real difference between studying a style that's complete and crosstraining? in either case, you're asked to reconcile seemingly different ideas into a coherent whole. the differences, to me, will be in terms of customs, terminology, and that sort of thing.

i'm sure it's true that if you concentrate solely on punching for your whole MA career, you'll be a very good puncher. but if you plan to have a wider base of skills than that, then one way or another, your attention will be dispersed. and that poses the same problems for anyone, whether crosstrainer or no.

note that there's a difference between crosstraining and dabbling. as obvious and relevant a difference as there is between good TCMA and a mckwoon.



Apoweyn

I agree with you. However, I think most arts have answers to most of the problems incountered. The deeper and longer one trains in the art, the more solutions they find.


Asking yourself "what tools does my art have to handle other situation not common in your art, is in a way cross-training.


They may not be solutions the one likes or agrees with, but most work in real situations.

I've faced grapplers to kick boxers, lost some and won some, but I always come away thinking "ok what's in my art that would have countered this or that etc etc... most of the time I gain expecially if I lose!!

investment in loss ROCKS!

I used to go to kwoon to kwoon just to experience other arts and to try to understand my art better through inter action. (this works great untill they discover you have no interest in really learning thier art, then some ask you to leave, but most are cool with it as long as you pay:)

I think there is a danger of losing focus when one cross trains. One tends to jump from one technique to another, never really learning the first.

Or they tend to drop tried and true methods for the latest and greatest fads.


Although, Some people can cross train and stay focused.

But

I think focusing on one art and cross-traing with the tools available within the art is easier.

in the long run...

I think one reaches a higher standard this way.


But, I can understand what your saying. I also believe its got a lot to do with the type and quality of teacher one has etc etc

(I.e there are a lot of factors involved in decidind to cross-train or not)

just my 2 cents worth

Spanky

[Ginger Fist]

Ginger, you are by FAR a better troller than Ralek!

--i'm #1!!! ... i'm #1!!! ... i'm #1!!! ...

I thought he was tops, but I think you've got him beat.

--he was a troll pretending 2 do sumthin else ... i'm pretending 2 troll but doing sumthin else ... even with that handicap i took his crown ... i'm #1!!! ... i'm #1!!! ...

Would it interest you at all to know that I don't do Jun Fan?

--kewl beans ... u evaded that pitfall

Just out of curiosity, what style do you train,

--kwongsai jook lum tong long

who is your sifu/instructor,

--1st 5 years my mother ... 2nd 5 years my grandmother ... varies ... mother decides who from the old group should have the fun of kicking my as*s ... has a relative fly in & stay awhile ... just 2 visit & pound me in2 the floor

how long have you been doing it

--dude!!! this is a m.a. forum & i'll not entertain ?s about my sex life!!!

and what laurels do you possess?

3 generations ... straight from the temple to my hands ... i'm 4th generation ... my good hands

[apoweyn]

les paul,

really well said, my friend.

honestly, i do sometimes wonder what i might be missing by crosstraining rather than sticking with one style. but ultimately, i think it's about making choices. as a human being, i make the best choices i can. but there's always going to be that possibility. the other choice. the greener grass.

but in the big picture, it all comes down to what you and i have both said, i think. regardless of what path you take, it's a question of honestly looking for the answers. either route will get you there, if you pursue it in the right manner.

for crosstrainers, the WRONG manner is dabbling. following fads was a really good observation.

anyway, thanks les paul. that was a good read.


stuart b.

[Merryprankster]

Ap,

Yup. Dabbling sucks.

Crosstraining isn't really about dabbling. It's about having a basic architecture, and filling in the gaps as needed.

I KNOW that my wrestling and BJJ doesn't have much striking. Solution: Find a striking art and integrate the bits I need. This can only happen on a meaningful level if I understand my own stuff so that I don't screw THAT up by trying to bring something that won't work into my personal repetoire :)

[Merryprankster]

Ginger,

Could you translate your style's name for me? Just curious what it means in English.

What principles is it based in/on? You know... wing chun has a great deal of centerline, grappling is about controlling the opponent's center of mass, etc.

Thanks!

[Starchaser107]

I think its Southern Preying Mantis.

[Ginger Fist]

starchaser107 - u r right ... it is southern praying mantis

Could you translate your style's name for me? Just curious what it means in English.

--kwongsai province china - bamboo forest temple - praying mantis ... not all the way accurate ... close enuff ... some say southern ... some don't ... doesn't matter as this name u ask about is new ... called different things at different times by different people ... my family archive list 3 names ... more i'm sure ... but i'm a lazy bag of sh*it so i don't know anymore

What principles is it based in/on? You know... wing chun has a great deal of centerline, grappling is about controlling the opponent's center of mass, etc.

--i have been waiting 4 some1 to ask this ? plz ask mr. steven t. richards & we will all get some answers 2 different ?s

[Merryprankster]

I'm afraid I don't know who steven t. richards is... so I wouldn't know where to go to ask him.

[Mr Nunchaku]

I think this deals with the philosophic aspect of the martial arts. No I don't think my style (TKD) has all the answers. Nor do I think any one style has all the answers. I believe you must find that out for yourself. If you think of one style of martial arts as being the truth and the way then you have enclosed yourself in a nice little box with a sticker that says ignorant stuck to it. This is why I have a problem with instructors who say their art is the ultimate art. This is also why I have a problem with someone saying one art is better than another.

[Ginger Fist]

I'm afraid I don't know who steven t. richards is... so I wouldn't know where to go to ask him.

--use the search engine & scope his profile ... i can't ask him the
?s ... u can ... i can't say the answers ... he can or should b able 2 if his profile is real ... ask him 2 answer ur ?s on this forum thread

[jon]

Im only posting this for others 'general' knowledge. SPM is a very hard style to find info on and is very closed in terms of what can and cant be shared. At least to my knowledge.
That being said my sigung used to know the style along with Hung Ga. I dont know the level of his knowledge in it and i dont know exactly what form of spm it was.
What i do know...
My sigung taught only one student this system and my sifu was given the oppotunity to spar him.
That same spm student left WELTS on my sifus arms. He was only a junior and not that carefull with his power.
Needless to say my sifu has great respect for the art. Its darn effective!
From what little ive seen its a fairly inclose style and is very aggresive in its tactics.
Its also very strong with pheonix eye fists and strikes to nerve points.
Once again im just posting this becouse Ginger seemed reluctent[which i understand with his background]. It could all be a load and if so then please Ginger point that out.
Still the story about my sifu and sigung [sifu's teacher] is very true. SPM can hold its own.

[Merryprankster]

Or, alternately, Ginger Fist could post the answer. If he's trained in it as long as he claims (which I'm not doubting) then he should be able to answer the question.

[Ginger Fist]

Im only posting this for others 'general' knowledge. SPM is a very hard style to find info on and is very closed in terms of what can and cant be shared.

--batta bing!!! & that's sumthin that needs to change a bit

At least to my knowledge. That being said my sigung used to know the style along with Hung Ga. I dont know the level of his knowledge in it and i dont know exactly what form of spm it was.

--dude, hung ga rocks!!!

From what little ive seen its a fairly inclose style and is very aggresive in its tactics.
Its also very strong with pheonix eye fists and strikes to nerve points.

--correct so far

Once again im just posting this becouse Ginger seemed reluctent[which i understand with his background]. It could all be a load and if so then please Ginger point that out.

--c above & mr. steven t. richards is the 1 who might b able 2 go public with more

[Ginger Fist]

Or, alternately, Ginger Fist could post the answer.

--no fu*cking way man ... if my sisters find this & bust me out my mother will kick the sh*it out of me ... son or not ... last time i moved 2 go public grandmother floated me head 1st in2 a wall ... 22 stitches inside & out

If he's trained in it as long as he claims (which I'm not doubting) then he should be able to answer the question.

--can't do sh*it about doubt ... urs or any1s ... but i'm not going 2 doubt ? will happen 2 me if i'm caught pushing spm public ... now mr. steven t. richards on the other hand ...

[Merryprankster]

oooooook.

So I take it this is a family style taught strictly behind closed doors?

[Ginger Fist]

So I take it this is a family style

--not family style ... kwongsai jook lum tong long ... call it ? u will

taught strictly behind closed doors?

--worse ... family only ... blood - marriage

[Merryprankster]

Umm, call it what you will, but only taught to family sounds like a family style to me, even if the name doesn't indicate it.

What a silly thing to do to the martial arts.

Anyway....

[DelicateSound]

The Ultimate Style that is taught to family members only. How powerful and strong it'll be.

[Merryprankster]

Exactly DelicateSound.

Innovation is the lifeblood of martial arts evolution.

A style must test itself against others or it becomes a rusty, arcane tool.

This doesn't mean the style can't be preserved, but it sure does need to be challenged from time to time to help it remain strong.

More people can mean more minds working towards the improvement of the art.

I realize that more people somtimes means McKwoon on the way, but there is a balance, somewhere to be struck.

[jon]

Guys, dont pick on what you dont understand...
There are im sure many reasons for keeping styles such as SPM a secret, not of least of which i tried to hint at in my last post. Its VERY dangerous to use and can be hard to control.
The reasons why its so dangerous are often becouse of its purity and the fact it isnt taught outside a family.
They have no school to run, no students to worry about, no one to impress at all other than themselfs. There is no gradings, you just wait till you get it right. Your trained by the grandmaster becouse there a member of your family and nothing is held back. If you think thats so terrible then fair enough, I think it keeps the arts pure and effective.The end result is an art nearly untouched from its orginal state. Very few of us can clame this sort of purity in our arts.
Yes its a not the greatest for martial arts as a whole, but for SPM as an art... at leasts its alive and pure in Gingers family.
I have a lot of respect for SPM, you CAN find info on it if you look around. What ive posted its only a barebones discription with a story to let you know how well it works. I didnt want to step on anyones toes.
Ive actualy even got vids of spm so have a dig around people. You certainly wont find Gingers Pai but there is pleanty of other info around.
By the way Merry
Hakka styles, SPM in particular are famous for there fighting ability and challengers. They just dont teach or fight in public.
The average Hakka student from a family martial art would absolutely obliterate most advanced students from strong styles.
This is simply becouse they train harder and everything has to be right. Often there very highly conditioned to.
SPM isnt the only art in this boat there are many forms of cma like this. Most are from Hakka orgin.

[General Kwan]

My style knows not all the answers............it doesn't even know half the questions.

[bean curd]

jon,

" the average hakka student from a family martial art would absolutly obliterate most advanced students from strong styles.

big words for someone who said they didn't know much about the style, can you elaborate on which family(s) ? what strong styles ? and what comparision do you have to " obliterate advanced students "

[Merryprankster]

Hey look,

I'm not insulting SPM. I don't know the first thing about it other than what I've learned from Ginger, and I'm not doubting its power.

But let me tell you something that is TRUE. It is TRUE that a closed system stagnates. It's like the galapagos islands or hawaii. Beautiful things evolved there, but animals from other places, that have been subjected to greater evolutional pressures, are having a FIELD DAY with the local flora and fauna.

By accepting the challenges, as you said these styles do, they are keeping themselves fit for survival, so to speak.

That said, you hit the nail on the head when you discussed the training--if it includes tough, full speed work on a resisting opponent then you're set. That is the single biggest factor to successful training, regardless of what style you choose.

Where you're off the mark is discussing its danger because of its 'purity,' and the fact that it isn't taught to outsiders. It's purity and lack of proliferation have little to do with it... it's in the hard training. Boxing is highly prolific, yet a good boxer is an exceptionally dangerous person because of how hard they train.

Also, I'm reasonably familiar with the Hakka, for a person with no Chinese background. Given their somewhat nomadic history and lack of acceptance by the Chinese wherever they went, I can imagine that they developed some highly effective ways to beat on people and kept those arts alive. I know that the Hakka are reputed to be the toughest bargainers in China and some of the shrewdest businessmen. I believe many of them did rather well in real estate near/in hong kong. Aren't most of them in the Southwestern regions of China now?

For the record, the Hakka are ingenious with foods. I like their fondness for strong flavors. Salt-baked shrimp and their stuffed bean curd being two of my favorites. Also genius is their way with preserved vegetables. Nice touch, that.

[jon]

You are perfectly right... It was a pretty silly statement.
My point was more that Hakka students in a family structure are usualy trained a lot stronger.
They DO practice full force and for the real deal, often doing full contact sparring and the like.
The other thing which i dont want to go into to much becouse i dont know enough about such things other than what ive read and picked up 'around the campfire'. Is that many Hakka systems often contain very detailed knowledge of the human body and how to systematicly take it down. These things are in all arts but are usualy taught LAST as part of the medical aspects.
Hakka styles due to the fact its infamily often train such things from almost the word go.
This simply means an average hakka spm student would proberly know how to kill or maim someone with a single blow very easily.
I wasnt trying to put down students of other arts, heck im a hung ga student. I just wouldnt want to go up against a hakka spm man of the same training length. Thats just me though. Same reason i wouldnt want to go up against a monk who had been training the same length.
As for how ive gotten my information...
From my sifu, from books ive read and from talking to others.
Ive have never claimed to be an authority on the subject. Its all just my personal exposure.

[Steven T. Richards]

Merry 'P',

Adaptive radiation is the key for isolated populations of martial arts sub-cultures 'evolving' out from their common ancetsor. Given a few generations, any given two pai will be very different - even from within the same 'family'.

There is a lot of SPM on the net, a lot is on video, much of it is very different, the similarities masking adaptive changes that have ocurred in the generations since their common origin.

There exist 'origin myths' which are taken as literal truths that explain these differences, and these are 'believed in' with much force, so much so that much time is spent in denouncing each other and issuing challenges to kong-Sau.

SPM has a very few principels and characteristics taht translate more or less evenly between pai, but there are very marked differences too. any answer to the question comparing it with wing-Chun would need to take those differences into consideration. It really isn't possible to give an encompassing response - in many ways there is as much if not more diversity between SPM Pai as there are those between SPM and other arts.

I've tried answering some of the technically based questions (and asking some too) on the Wing-Chun and Southern KF forums. Some responses were informed and mature - others - emotive attachments to bigotry and dogma.

Personally I tend not be popular with a lot of other martial artists, because I am too modern for the traditionalists, but too traditional for the post-modernists: I require proof for asertions, and the application of demonstrable and/or dialectivcal reasoning in debate - otherwise I see the next man's opinion as good or bad as my own - and all so called 'histories', 'theories' etc as relative truths produced by a martial arts sub-culture and nothing more.

That said, my Chinese family (adopted) has no problem with my viewpoints, as I've proved my loyalty and dedication to oriental martial arts for some 36 years - and I am privileged to be a nominated co-successor to a Hakka Grandmaster.

None of the above necessarily endears me to other westerners whose ambitions in SPM may exceed any right that may have to credibilty or acceptance by the Hakka community.

Steve.

[Steven T. Richards]

BTW,

The identity of 'Gingerfist' is not known with 'certainty' to me. He has not made it openly known, so anything I may believe is simply that - and not proof.

I have asked around but have received blanket denials. He seems to know something about me, and, in drawing me out presumably has some purpose - although what I do not 'know'.

Steve.

[Steven T. Richards]

Jon,

Just as an addenda, your comments on SPM re training anatomy, vital point attacks and such from teh word go is spot on accurate for 'real deal' Hakka arts as taught behind closed doors.

Steve.

[jon]

I think the reason Ginger was trying to get you on this thread was that people have been expressing some interest in spm. We were hoping maybe you might be willing to share some of your training experience with us.
If this is not possible i totaly understand...
I was wondering if you would tell us maybe some of the history of spm according to your pai. Possibly what sort of tactics you favor or ways of generating power. Maybe what your forms are like?
Also maybe tell us a little of what sort of 'real deal' training you do. This is not just for me mind you. I have an idea as is but its just that, an 'idea'. I would love to hear first hand from someone who is training in the art.
From your profile you sound as though you have some very strong ties to the style, can you maybe share this info with us?
I realise that any answers you give will just be your personal training, Im not asking you to represent the system as a whole.
Again if this isnt possible i will understand.
Respects Jon.

[Kristoffer]

Yes

[Merryprankster]

Mr. Richards,

Jon has pretty much asked the questions that I am interested in. I wouldn't ask much about forms for instance... if you check my profile, you'll see a decided lack of 'Traditional" experience.

Just for the record, I believe your analysis to be spot on--especially requiring appropriate use of the dialectic. Give some empirical evidence and tell me why it influenced you the way it has... that's an argument in the classic sense of the word.

I realize you can't speak to all styles, but there surely must be similarities. Can you speak to those?

Congratulations on being selected as a successor. I realize that you may not have had that as a 'goal in mind,' but nonetheless, somebody found you competent.

You'll understand if I find this whole secrecy thing as silly as it gets. I realize that's very postmodern of me ;) but I also appreciate the stance of those who find it useful and necessary, even if I disagree with them.

Is there a way to, in a friendly manner, spar hard with most SPM practicioners if you are outside the style, or is any request like that regarded as a challenge to most of them?

Is SPM mostly Hakka-family related?

Kristoffer--what system do you do, and why does it have all the answers?

[Kristoffer]

First of all, I dont do one style alone, the martial art system that I do is Shuai Shiao combined with my sifus family 5 animal kungfu style. That and things my sifu has learned through many years of fighting and military. You kinda dwell into this state of martial art after a while. so I guess I cant really say that my style has all the answers,, since I am a mixed martial artist in your eyes. But what I do know is that no matter how many questions I can come up with I al´ways find the answers in what I do.
If u dont mind, Ill dont list all the answers to all martial questions since that would take quite some while. :D

[Kristoffer]

oh wait.. :rolleyes: my style doesnt have the internal aspects. It has some, standing qi-gong stuff. But My sifu has some experience in Taichi and courses are availible. I just dont do them.
On a side note, our forms are very Hsing-I like, kinda linear but applications and "animal tecniques" are very circular, move-around-opponent, Bagua like.

[Starchaser107]

About two years ago I was in Florida for competition, I saw someone in the southern division perform spm , the guy won the division. his form looked "different" some people thought it looked a bit funny, but others like myself saw something else.
One thing I remember was quite a bit of "jerking" or "spastic" like motions although im not quite sure if that defines my meaning adequately. I also dont know what type of Spm it was
but it left alot of us with a lasting impression beit good or bad.
I'll ask some of my Hakka friends if they know anything about spm, but most of them are like second or third generation chinese in the island so I doubt it that theyll know, maybe thier parents will though. Im not holding my breath.

[Steven T. Richards]

Hello All,

SPM history is one of the most contentious of all issues and causes a lot of bad feeling. Very recently for example, because I had written something that apparently contradicted the interests of one particular group within a broader branch of Jook-Lum Mantis (by broader I mean that the contention was not shared by others within that Pai) I, and my Pai were threatened with the publication of a letter which would be 'very damaging' to the reputation of our Great-Grandmaster and our current Pai.

My response was to suggest to this group that they present themselves before our Pai, with the letter, assert their belief in the literal truth of it and their intention to insult our Pai, at which point they would be immediately and comprehensively challenged.

The offer was not taken up - but the issue will not go away. The threat has been noted by the Chinese Masters of Jook-Lum in the UK.

So, given the above, I will simply outline the broad facts (as an origin myth) of my Pai.

I belong to the Lee-Yin-Sing branch of Kwangsi Jook-Lum Temple Souhern Praying mantis. There are three main branches each with sub-branches and most probably other groups too who are not so well known (if that is not a contardiction in terms for such a secretive art).

Lee-Yin-Sing (LYS) was a master of Hung-Gar and the Hakka Chu-Gar Praying Mantis system before studying Kwangsi Jook-Lum under Cheung-Yiu-Chung, himself a disciple of Monk Buddha Lee from the temple itself.

Later, LYS chllenged and was defeated by another Kwangsi Monk- Lee-Tik, with whom LYS returned to the Kwangsi temple, and there learned a 'different' version of the Temple Mantis than taht taught by Cheung and received by him from Lee-Siem (Buddha Lee).

LYS's art was different in many ways, summarised as follows:

The art was resolved down into a single long form: Tong-Long Sup-Sam Sau-Faht Kuen (The Thirteen Roads or Laws of Mantis Boxing). There was no 'Som-Bo-Gin' or Three Step Arrow Form, which some consider to be the foundation of SPM.

My personal view is that SBG is a nominalism, a generic name for an elementary set which differs completely between different Pai that simply use the same name - the sets having nothing in common. That said, some make much of the numerology and mysticism to be found within the phrase 'Three Steps Forward' - I do not.

All of LYS's students are freely taught anything and everything that they can learn -under physical and moral pressure until 'failure point'. However, the sequence of the form is withheld beyond the fourth Road, and only passed on on merit. all the applications and principles are given - again up to the limitations of the student, but the 'sequence is withheld on merit.

Two man exercises 'Doi-Chong' which are so common in most SPM Pai are considered s basic and for beginners only. The empahsis is on San-Sau skill under pressure - a fighters art - right from the get go.

The sensitivity drills are based on open Mor-Kiu (feeling the briddge) and then, 'leaking' hand methods - LYS's art is a 'leaking hand skill' rather than one based on a stiff and hard bridge.

The energy in the system becomes progressively more 'yin' and resembles Loi-Gar internal arts (Tai-Chi for example).

The 'Gin-Tan-Ging' 'sudden shock spring power' is unlike most expressions of this energy - developed mainly from the twisting of the feet, waist and the projection of the shoulders. The usual but not exclusive power generation is from the elbows in most SPM.

Variations in structure are acceptable in LYS's Pai as all masters stamp their 'character' onto the 13 Roads set.

LYS's art is known as Lee-Yin-Sing Pai Jook-Lum, as 13 Roads Tong-Long, as Lee-Gar Lam Pai Tong-Long, as Lam-Tong-Long and as Tong-Long Pai.

In our Pai, it is said that a 'proper' name for it is Jook-Lum as Lee-Tik came from that monastry, but, its' 'real name' is simply Lam-Pai Tong-Long (Southern Mantis) or as it is collectively known in the UK as 'Tong-Long Pai' - a joining together of the Lee-Yin-Sing lineage and that from wong-Yuk-Gong, teh senior student of Cheung-Yiu-Chung.

In the USA, the line from the late Grandmaster Lam-Sang is verty well represented. Lam-Sang studied under Cheung-Yiu-Cheung and then went to the Kwangsi Temple with Monk Lee-Siem - Cheung's teacher.

I have extremely good relationships with representatives of Grandmaster Gin-Foon-Mark, and Grandmaster Henry Poo-Yee's respective Pai. I refer to them both as Grandmaster out of respect for these two great and accomplished Si-Fu.

I have also been 'warned' about doing that, from another group, but my answer was that I will continue to do so, I have no reason not to and no satisfactory explanation was oferred as to why I should not acknowledge their rank, sattus, skill and authority from Lam-Sang.

Grandmaster Gin-Foon-Mark says that he knew LYS and that he did indeed return to the Kwangsi Temple and there learned a 'different' version of the Jook-Lum art.

LYS's students fought for HK against Taiwan in full contact tournaments in teh 1950's, my first Si-Fu the late Master Ho-Sing gained a heavyweight semi-final place.

My current Si-Fu is Grandmaster Lee-Lien, son of LYS.

The actual fighting skills and techniques/principles are very unique in LYS's and indeed Ho-Sings art.

The SPM performer that you saw, I think was one of Grandmaster Henry Poo-Yee's people - Khanh Lee, whom I respect in friendship very much. Our form and structure is very different , but we are all from a common origin.

Hope the above helps as an intro.

Steve Richards.

[Merryprankster]

Actually it's confusing as hell.

Thanks though!

Sounds more flexible than some.

[Steven T. Richards]

Further to the above, my people are taught anatomy including, the origin, insertion, action and nerve and blood supply of muscles; the structure of joints, bones and body/limb cavities, nerve sensory receptive fields, pain signalling and modulation, biomechanics, respiratory physiology, combat information processing - and many other skills, 'from the off'.

As for finding and sparring with a SPM person, it should be easy to arrange, but each Pai is very different - and as I've said earlier on, the differences are very marked.

I got most of my 'real world' pressure testing in 13 years of front line Police service, and shamefully when less mature - in challenge matches with other martial artists.

I pass on my experience to my people, but give them the tools to shape their own way.

In LYS/HS Mantis, the 'form is not the function' it is not a WYSIWYG system. The art is guided by principles, not by abstract techniques - it is 'application driven'.

Destruction techniques (pressure points and dim-mak) are fundamental. The stance is considered a transitional artillery platform and not something to posture in. If you are not doing something then there is no stance - as such. No 'bridge' is oferred to the opponent. The emphasis on 'leaking' which biomechanically is between 'sticking' and 'touch and go' allows an adaptation to the oponnent based on their human structure - not on a limiting style based dogma that says that it must be a certain way.

It is a difficult style to learn, and is best passed on to no more than four disciples at a time, as the teachers time with each student in a mentoring fashion is vital. No 'pulp martial arts' with this Pai.

Steve Richards.

[Merryprankster]

Your training sounds suspiciously like the training of good martial artists everywhere :)

[Steven T. Richards]

Hello Merry 'P',

Thank you, sorry about the confusion, but the politics thing is such an embarassing issue in SPM.

If I can help with any information now that I've 'set the political table' I'd be more than happy to.

It might be useful to invite 'Aussie John' -John Lee from Sydney Australia to make comments as he is primarily Chow Gar SPM but is now also studying Lee-Yin-Sing's and Ho-Sing's Mantis.

I've always been 'open' with what I know or don't know and that offends some people.

Regards,
Steve.

[yuanfen]

Steve Richards said:I have extremely good relationships with representatives of Grandmaster Gin-Foon-Mark, and Grandmaster Henry Poo-Yee's respective Pai. I refer to them both as Grandmaster out of respect for these two great and accomplished Si-Fu.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As I understand it Mark sifu doesnt speak much English and it is not always clear how much authority any one has to represent him. Poo-Yee speaks English reasonably well but there too there have been zig zags about representation. And as far as Mark-Poo Yee communications- lets not go there.
In several TCMAS including wing chun- the genuinely top flight people
dont yak much. Regarding the Merry pranksters Darwinian analogy about in breeding- it doesnt necessarily hold in kung fu.
Lots of innovations and extensions go on in the hands of the really good masters. And lots of good folks have tested enough to know what is really there in their kung fu. without depending only on theory or bring on display in television soap operas..

[Steven T. Richards]

Grandmaster Mark told me himself. As for those representing him I speak of his family. Why did you feel the need to say what you did.

[Aussie John]

Good'ay Steve Si-hing,
Thanks for inviting me to this topic.

Cheers,


Aussie John.

[SevenStar]

"combat information processing "

Can you elaborate on that for me? Are you referring to the way the body reacts to certain stimuli?

[jon]

Thank you kindly for sharing that with us. Was very interesting, from my perspective at least.
I have more respect for SPM now than ever before. It takes some time and effort to give such a detailed account. Once again thank you very much, it hasnt fallen on deaf ears:)

[yuanfen]

Richards:Grandmaster Mark told me himself. As for those representing him I speak of his family. Why did you feel the need to say what you did.
------------------------------------------------------
I have no problem with what Mark sifu apprently told you about knowing LYS. The context of my comment was 1. From time to time people have "spoken for" Mark sifu- including on this forum and in the print media- only later withdrawing it or being contradicted.
2. Again Mark sifu's strong point is his immense knowledge- but he is not known for much speaking or writing in English on his art.
mentioning that is NOT a criticism of your comments. I have nothing but respect for him and his art. And your comments and
perspectives on
SPM were informative.

[Merryprankster]

Yuan,

I have no doubt that you are right: individual masters make innovations, and adjustments that are probably quite good.

However, if the style does not open itself up to both outside sparring matches and new blood, the pace of evolution is slowed, possibly to the point that it becomes irrelevant as an art.

How many people do you know that are good at fighting people in their style but not so hot with somebody who has a completely different mindset and style? I've seen it happen a lot.

What worked 3000 years ago may not work as well now. It's just one of those things. It doesn't mean that everything will get redone from the ground up, it's just that the style meets and learns how to deal with other things, and those adjustments are made with the integrity of the style in mind.

Or not :) Then people make their own styles, get called "fake masters," for it, and then over the course of years and getting lost in obscure origination myths, the style is now one of the original systems taught at a small northern chinese temple. Then it becomes legitimate and the practitioners have "real kung fu.":D

[yuanfen]

merryprankster said:
Yuan,

I have no doubt that you are right: individual masters make innovations, and adjustments that are probably quite good.

However, if the style does not open itself up to both outside sparring matches and new blood, the pace of evolution is slowed, possibly to the point that it becomes irrelevant as an art.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not diluting the art and not trying it out on others is not the same thing. There are folks I know who do wing chun and only wing chun who have and do try it out against others. They learn how to apply and adjust what they have learned....still based on wing chun principles. "Sparring" is a loaded word and means different things. If by sparring one means putting on gloves, getting into a ring or an octagon...actually that also can be incestuous---many often end up in similar patterns depending upon the rules..
The real thing is illegal...so it becomes an issue of proper testing.

[Steven T. Richards]

Yuan 'F',

Thank you for clarifying what you meant. My converastions with GM Mark were not thru an internet forum, and my friendship with a very close family member of his, and other senior members of his Pai is something that I value. Likewise, my friendship with senior members of GM Yee's Pai is highly valued by me.

'Aussie John,

Welcome friend, I was wondering if you might be freely open and frank enough to offer a comparisson and contrast between Cho-Gar Pai SPM and that of Lee-Yin-Sing and Ho-Sing? Your experience and insights would be most helpful. A difficult task, so
many, many thanks in advance!

'Seven Star',

Yes, combat information processing in this context means a cognitive model or 'battle computer'. The language is western but there is a basic isomorphism between that and the traditional elements in LYS's and HS's Pai's. I use the western terminology as it reaches western students most efficiently. They also appreciate the traditional elements more fully.

'Jon'

Thank you for your kind words, anything that I can offer in help I will. BTW, I have a great respect for Hung-Gar, having stiudied it myself for some years.

Steve.

[Steven T. Richards]

Merry 'P',

I think that you raise very valid points. Many people perform efficiently from within a familiar framework, a 'comfort zone' , that includes compliance, explicity or otherwise.

Martial arts systems should prepare people to fight real people in real situations and not seek to replicate school house scenario's - if - their purpose is to train 'martial' - artists, rather than recreational performance artists. The latter has it's place of course, it's just that it isn't the same thing as the former.

Another example WHICH IS NOT STYLE SPECIFIC: 'Centreline attacks' - CAN form the basis for a comfort zone in many Chinese systems. It is often held that they are hard to stop and that the centre must be defended etc etc. A number of Chinese styles that express this belief then create elaborate technical and training 'rituals' built around this concept - and then claim taht they MUST be 'good' styles, because they can defend/utilise the centre-line so very well. That would be OK, IF, it were necesarily true that the centre-line straight-line attacks/defence where the ONLY way to get at someone, or be got at ourselves. That leaves the awkward questions concerning round-line systems, grappling systems etc which approach the combat problem solving issue differently.

Hence the heated and emotive debates.

Stating that someting (eg centreline) is so exclusively important and then building a QED response to it IS a kind of comfort zone and stepping outside of it, or being taken outside of it can be disquieting for some people.

I suggest that it is better to be rid of technical based dogmas, and instead make a systems principles lead the action. If the principle sthen fail under pressure - then they need updating.

Steve.

[Steven T. Richards]

Jon,

My good friend & Brother Aussie John, who posted above, is in Sydney. Be great if maybe you two could hook up some time. John is primarily Chow-Gar and Choy-Lay-Fut, but he is also a Chin Woo man and now a memeber of Lee-Yin-Sing's Pai in Jook-Lum Mantis.

Respect,

Steve.

[jon]

Thanks again for your insite, im finding this all really interesting.
Im always happy to meet up with others in the kf circle and certainly would love to meet a spm stylist. Aussie John if your willing i would be happy to meet up and exchange some ideas.
One thing i should say though im feeling a little guilty that we have kind of overtaken thread on this matter. Im going to post a topic on the main page so please move on over people.
Least that way these guys can go back to discussing, how supperious there respective arts are:p [just kidding]
Hope we can continue this though, I feel its good to let others know about true southern kung fu and how its trained. Its often misunderstood.

[Merryprankster]

Yuan,

I think we are in agreement here, we're just not saying it the same way.

I absolutely agree that the art doesn't have to be 'diluted,' as you put it, and that testing it out is the way to apply it. We know that fighting per se is not legal, so that leaves sportive competition, be it sparring at the kwoon or ring as the next best thing.

However, my point is only that the above is NECESSARY, and must be done frequently, or else the art becomes irrelevant over time. Further, I stand by my opinion that wider distribution, within reason, creates a greater number of minds moving and testing out hypotheses in the sparring lab. IF the information is disseminated then the innovations spread and roll throughout the style. We've hardly diluted it, it's just that somebody found a good way to do something.


Isaac Newton once said: If I have seen further than others, it is only because I stand on the shoulders of giants.

He's trying to point out that the work of other people furthered/enabled his own, and that can be true in MA as well. In the greater context, it is an admission that information flow is the key to advancement in any discipline.

And yes, I am aware of McKwoon syndrome. The tarnish on the silver... hence my discussion of "within reason." I know that will be variable, but a little openess is necessary.

[Merryprankster]

Steven,

Precisely.

Judoka and wrestlers have one goal in mind for the takedown--control the opponents center of mass while protecting yourself. I can lift him, move him backwards, forwards, side to side or any combination thereof.

The entries are different. The moves may look completely dissimilar, but the end goal is the SAME. The principle does not change.

[yuanfen]

Merryprankster:

We are saying some of the same the same things. However some comments on your post. IMO, the Chinese arts in their evolution
did some careful borrowing- such as CLF. Even Chen taiji was influenced by Chen Wanting's previous knowledge of other arts.
Wing Chun spun off siu lum ji. TCMA history is one of both secrecy
and careful borrowing and synthesis. The careful and fairly secretive but reflective development resulted in an abundance of rich martial arts that the more open western sportive bent has not matched. In my considered opinion at this stage in the dissemination of TCMA dilution is a greater threat to the successful survival of the good arts than the dangers of insularity.
You quote Newton. Newton's work was the product of solitary reflection and Galilean physics remained true within the extended framework. Einstein's physics did not destroy Newton but extended it. Newton's equations still work.Same for Einstein's even after Heisenberg and Dirac. While kung fu is not physics...the same has happened in seemingly closed systems. Gin Foon mark is not really open but he is good and those he has given quality time to are also good..Thus in wing chun-
Leung Jan carefully building on his fairly secretive predecessors-
same for Yip Man. Careless eclecticism now threatens the development of that tradition. I am not sure that what is commonly called sparring is a good test of skills. Some have faced chance involuntary encounters. Also some very good wing chun persons I know have entered tournaments- not to win but to test whether some things known to them worked-the rules or trophies be ****ed. One person I know walked through almost every karate tournament in Arizona in the 70s. Another enjoyably and hilariously got disqualified for excessive force because the other fellow(a black belt) kept running into his fist- which did not have full power. Another was charged low by a wrestling coach in a friendly challenge and he did not go down validating for him his
particular ma bo..
A good martial artist knows how to run tests without provoking illegal encounters or the common forms of sparring. Careful infusions into lines is the key. The old analogy is till true- a thousand monkeys banging on typewriters cannot create a sonnet. But in their own evolution improved communications can occur and has.

[bamboo_ leaf]

good post, well said.

;)

[Ginger Fist]

Merryprankster
Umm, call it what you will, but only taught to family sounds like a family style to me, even if the name doesn't indicate it.

--u r wrong ... doesn't matter how it sounds 2 you ... u r not chinese either ... no concept of ? family means

What a silly thing to do to the martial arts.

--not silly ... not good ... trying 2 change it

Delicatesound
The Ultimate Style that is taught to family members only. How powerful and strong it'll be.

--strike powerful ... write pure ... pure killing hands ... uncontaminated by sport ... $ w*hores ... pure

Merryprankster

Innovation is the lifeblood of martial arts evolution.

--at a point in time yes ... afterwards - no

A style must test itself against others or it becomes a rusty, arcane tool.

--tell me ? has changed about humans ... 2 arms - 2 legs ... always been fighting ... no more or less violent today ... i've touched grappler-wrestlers-joint lock-so on ... u've never touched spm ... according to u ... u've lost be4 we even touch ... u r arguing technique 2 technique ... doesn't work ... high skill - specialized ... can-should-must transfer to general

This doesn't mean the style can't be preserved, but it sure does need to be challenged from time to time to help it remain strong.

--yes ... & it is challenged ... there is nothing new in the universe of fighting

More people can mean more minds working towards the improvement of the art.

--fighting is fighting ... do it real 4 a while then u decide

I realize that more people somtimes means McKwoon on the way, but there is a balance, somewhere to be struck.

--balance is struck ... looking 2 open it up ... need more help ... try thinking outside the box

[Merryprankster]

Yuan,

I don’t think I’m making myself clear. It is TRUE, as you point out, that many innovations are the result of one man’s contemplations and efforts. In the Martial Arts, Kano and Ueshiba come to mind as immediate examples.

However, their accomplishments were not done in a vacuum, anymore than Einstein’s or Newton’s. You point out that Newton’s revelations were based on the exploits of previous scientists and mathematicians, and that is my primary point here.

First suppose, instead of teaching math and science openly in universities, math and science were taught only to a select few? Newton and Liebnitz would never have discovered calculus. The broader the dissemination of knowledge, the greater the chance it meets somebody who has the genius to expand it, rather than simply duplicate and regurgitate.

Secondly, things taught in a closed manner take on the qualities of mystery. You move from knowledge into the realm of dogma very quickly. The nail rapidly becomes the hammer. Things are done that way because they were ALWAYS done that way, or that’s how it was ALWAYS taught, and don’t you dare question it! If knowledge had not been disseminated widely, instead of scientists, we’d have sorcerers and a level of technological advancement far different than that of today.

Ginger:

If by doing “real fighting,” you suggest that I go out and get in scraps, then that’s not happening. I’m not going to go indulge in adolescent behavior and jeopardize my job, relationships, training and freedom.

If by doing “real fighting,” you are talking about full contact sparring of some sort, then I have done that, against Thai boxers, American kickboxers, wrestlers, judoka, boxers, and Kenpo types with a reasonable measure of success. I’m not the world’s best and there are a great many people with more talent than me; however, I am no slouch either.

If by doing “real fighting,” you are insinuating that only a select few styles offer true fighting value, then I suggest that you have taken leave of your senses.

I’ve personally not crossed paths with SPM, and I have never remarked on the style’s effectiveness. I’ve suggested only that open teaching expands opportunity for improvements in the style and in the quality of training partnets. There is absolutely NOTHING that will convince me of the “pure water,” argument, so we’ll have to simply agree to disagree on that. If some guy synthesizes a style, calls it Florida Seminole Jiu-jitsu, teaches it to his students and then they all whoop ass at every submission grappling tournament they enter, then I don’t care if it’s BJJ or not, I need to find out what they are learning and get me some of that :)

Lastly, I realize that the style you have learned is NOT a family style; that is, it did not originate in a family and was not distributed only to that family for a goodly period of time. My only point is that given the current state of affairs, as you outline them, it might as well be.

[Ginger Fist]

If by doing “real fighting,” you suggest that I go out and get in scraps, then that’s not happening.

--lol ... those times r past 4 all of us

If by doing “real fighting,” you are talking about full contact sparring of some sort, then I have done that, against Thai boxers, American kickboxers, wrestlers, judoka, boxers, and Kenpo types with a reasonable measure of success.

--closer 2 the mark

I’m not the world’s best and there are a great many people with more talent than me; however, I am no slouch either.

--u read like an honest person ... i accept ur view of where u r

If by doing “real fighting,” you are insinuating that only a select few styles offer true fighting value, then I suggest that you have taken leave of your senses.

--define select - few ... define true fighting value

I’ve personally not crossed paths with SPM, and I have never remarked on the style’s effectiveness.

--not my point ... if u claim exposure 2 a technique is required 4 ur method 2 work then u r doomed ... it will take u 4 lifetimes 2 encounter most of the mainstream systems

I’ve suggested only that open teaching expands opportunity for improvements in the style and in the quality of training partnets.

--in part agreed ... maybe word play ... do u accept refinement of a method as being = 2 improvements in the style? not sure about the training partner end of it tho ... level of skill needs to be = 2 or greater in order 4 improvement ... not so much system as individual skill level

There is absolutely NOTHING that will convince me of the “pure water,” argument, so we’ll have to simply agree to disagree on that.

--ok

If some guy synthesizes a style, calls it Florida Seminole Jiu-jitsu, teaches it to his students and then they all whoop ass at every submission grappling tournament they enter, then I don’t care if it’s BJJ or not, I need to find out what they are learning and get me some of that

--wouldn't interest me if they whooped ass clean around the world ... tuff sport ... still a sport ... not real world in any sense of the word ... nothing will convince me otherwise so we must agree 2 disagree on this

Lastly, I realize that the style you have learned is NOT a family style; that is, it did not originate in a family and was not distributed only to that family for a goodly period of time.

--true ... good understanding ... y didn't u say so at 1st?

My only point is that given the current state of affairs, as you outline them, it might as well be.

--ok ... cultural thingamabob ... my mother's family is huge ... clan ... my reason 4 pushing this thing in2 the open is beyond anything mentioned yet ... mr. steven t. richards has done a great service by being open ... good 4 him ... good 4 real spm

[Merryprankster]

Certainly Ginger; I know you wouldn't be interested in "Seminole JJ," I would, but that's because I have specific sport goals.

You know, a lot of people can't seem to realize that success in BJJ does not a fighter make. I've always repeatedly said that Boxing, Thai Boxing, BJJ, Wrestling, Judo... these are sports with martial applications, but they ARE sports. They are NOT self-defense. Two different animals. I certainly agree with you there. It is not a far stretch however, to use the same skills developed in those sports to focus on a more 'self-defense' oriented goal. Good balance is good balance, a hard punch or kick is a hard punch or kick, etc. Plus, the competitive, intensive training is good for sharpening specific skill sets that are combat oriented.

Nah, I don't suppose you'll lose just because you've not been exposed to it, that's for certain. You are quite correct that to be exposed to everything would be impossible. I guess what I'm getting at is that better strategies can be evolved over time for dealing with different types of opponents the more and more you are exposed to them. I once had a guy who was a stand-up type CLOSE with me because he liked infighting weapons--but he lacked takedown defenses. That didn't last long.

I guess I'm trying to get at the application of principles... generalities applied to certain categories of attack. An example might be to sprawl on leg attacks. Many different leg attacks, lots of sprawl variations, but the principle of legs going down and away with the weight on your opponent is the idea. Exactly how you do it is individual, but the general principle needs to stay in place or it doesn't work right.


Good luck bringing your style out in the open:)

[Ginger Fist]

You know, a lot of people can't seem to realize that success in BJJ does not a fighter make.

--ok

It is not a far stretch however, to use the same skills developed in those sports to focus on a more 'self-defense' oriented goal. Good balance is good balance, a hard punch or kick is a hard punch or kick, etc.

--ok ... i c where u r coming from ... 1 thing u did not mention that i prize ... heart ... warrior spirit ... the willingness to endure pain & inflict damage ... so many highly skilled people fall apart under anything but ideal setting

I guess what I'm getting at is that better strategies can be evolved over time for dealing with different types of opponents the more and more you are exposed to them.

--ok, i understand ... wing chun's insistence on staying behind closed doors ... good against wing chun ... suck against hung gar

I once had a guy who was a stand-up type CLOSE with me because he liked infighting weapons--but he lacked takedown defenses. That didn't last long.

--likes should b situation determined ... where ever he is ... i'm comfortable - like it there

I guess I'm trying to get at the application of principles... generalities applied to certain categories of attack.

--principles is right path ... concepts is dead end ... a lil progress then run in2 self-made wall

An example might be to sprawl on leg attacks. Many different leg attacks, lots of sprawl variations, but the principle of legs going down and away with the weight on your opponent is the idea.

--ok

Exactly how you do it is individual, but the general principle needs to stay in place or it doesn't work right.

--ok

Good luck bringing your style out in the open

--thanx ... ur post makes a good piece of evidence 4 my argument

[Merryprankster]

Ginger,

Yes, you are right. The other thing that combat sports veterans bring to the table is the ability and willingness to continue when receiving damage.

[yuanfen]

Merryprankster:
That is an important & good point. But as in many things there are limitations partcularly due to the effects of cumulative damage and the aging process. There are Kung Fu folks who can and have taken care of themselves in self defense situations in old age.
I have known several such cases. But I cannot imagine Mohammed Ali, Bobby Chacon, Gracie Sr. being able to do that now. What do you all think?

[Merryprankster]

You can wrestle, play jiujitsu and judo, or even box until you are very old, and still be very good... good enough to handle yourself in a defense situation.

The people you point out were all ring fighters. They endured repeated, cumulative trauma over time, constantly competing and training for bout after bout. Believe me when I tell you that this adds up. My knees are not the very best, and there is some speculation on the condition of my L5 disk. I already know I'll have rotator cuff problems when I get older. And I am not anywhere NEAR taking the level of punishment that the examples you threw out did.

Rhadi Ferguson, a current National Judo Champion, says that at the international, elite level, the difference between winning and losing is being healthy. Everybody at that level is so good and trains so hard that they are constantly with one nagging injury or another. But if you don't train that hard, somebody else WILL. And then, you lose.

If Kung Fu were practiced as a competitive, combat sport, then you would see the same kinds of injuries and problems that combat sport athletes face in their later years. There is nothing special about Kung Fu that prevents injury. The good exercise that Kung Fu provides helps preserve the body into old age, which is why those old masters can take care of themselves just fine. The same would be true if people like Ali, Rhadi, heck, even ME approached our activities in a similar way. However, we don't. We train to compete, and the abuse we take in training and competition increases the chance of physical problems later on.

[Steven T. Richards]

Hello Merry 'P',

I think that you are right. Kung-Fu straddles the boundary between recreational performance 'art' and 'martial' art.
There is nothing necessarily superior about Kung-Fu - health wise.

It's 'horses for courses'.

a real moot point, is to what extent are Kung-Fu systems as practiced today 'martial' and to what extent recreational or cultural arts?

There is a quite ramified comfort zone in much Traditional martial arts practice, based on what are little more than delusions about fighting in the 'real' world. there are some good fighters who train, teach and practice appropriately - but - there are many, many more who do everything in the virtual world of their imaginations, or vicariously or otherwise by proxy thru other peoples fights - real or imagined.

Real Kung-Fu is a fine art - combat and recreational, but the two together - well, that is a very rare alloy indeed...

[Daedalus]

"Nostyle" has the answers for everthing.:D

[Steven T. Richards]

Neither have 'all styles'.

[yuanfen]

Merryprankster (key snips of post followed by comments)
The people you point out were all ring fighters. They endured repeated, cumulative trauma over time, constantly competing and training for bout after bout. Believe me when I tell you that this adds up.

((Sure not just from the ring- hard sports too. My favorite soccer knee needs TLC))

Rhadi Ferguson, a current National Judo Champion, says that at the international, elite level, the difference between winning and losing is being healthy.

(( I have had two good judo friends- both AAU champions and one of them Formosa champ as well. The latter when i knew him(late 60s)--
had had a broken collar bone, shoulder, jaw. partial paralysis in one part of the face. Plato once remarked that the Olympians dont last long because they dont know the middle way))

If Kung Fu were practiced as a competitive, combat sport, then you would see the same kinds of injuries and problems that combat sport athletes face in their later years.

(( Depends on which kung fu. There have been kung fu masters who actually have been combative but lasteda long time.))

There is nothing special about Kung Fu that prevents injury.

(Could be an over generalization. matter of degrees of injury and variance with style))

[Merryprankster]

Oh, no argument yuan fen certainly not trying to be challenging.

Being combative though, is a little different than being in a constant state of training for a tournament every two months... or for some boxers as often as a bout every few weeks!

And I completely agree that there will be different injuries from different styles. I'm just trying to say that there is nothing special about kung fu practice, vice boxing or wrestling or some such that mystically prevents injuries.

[Steven T. Richards]

Real fighters get hurt. Recreational performance artists also suffer injuries - even Tai-Chi people (who may not in individual cases be fighters).

There's a whole load of crap spoken about for example 'My teachers hands have never been passed' A typical comment from someone who has not had anything like enough real experience.

...unless of course he means in a compliant school house environment.

In my police work, I got belted plenty of times, concussed, bones broken, cut, attacked with knives, petrol bombs, jumped by gangs, bouncers, the psychotically insane, went thru massive urban riots, got threatened with guns, had dogs set on me etc etc.

I'm just NOT impressed with BS.

My students beat me up if I don't stop them, and, if I'm NOT teaching them properly, then they'll never touch me...

My Mantis Si-Fu are like that. My Si-Fu Grandmaster Lee-Lien was still fighting (for real - yes REAL) in his late 60's. That said he is one of a very few. Many in TCMA start with magical mystical BS and never escape that virtual world.

There is a world of difference between 'martial' and 'recreational' howsoever imporatant and respected the latter may be for 'health'. Hard lives take their toll...

If Plato had been a soldier like Socrates, maybe he'd have had a different perspective.

[Steven T. Richards]

Merry 'P',

Re UFC, MMA, Cage etc, despite my real world experience, I'd not last longer than the few seconds initial contact would take in that environment.

Horses for courses.

Despite that, I don't find Kung-Fu threatened or my own 'status' under threat by accepting my limitations - it's simply the way things are. People who insist that their style is unbeatable make a fundamental category error, it isn't style that fights it's the fr*ickin man, in the fr*ickin situation.

It's amusing how people appropriate a whole culture (Kung-Fu) to a so called arguement which is clearly aimed at justifying the claims of a single style (style 'X' say).

I respect your breadth of experince, and your intelligent questions/responses.

Cheers,

Steve.

[Merryprankster]

I agree that it is the man that fights, not the style. However, some styles come with built in limitations that transfer poorly to combat. Those holes need to be shored up. There is no such thing as a "complete style." There are, however, complete fighters.

To pick a long overused example, most styles don't really address groundfighting in a meaningful way; this is a whole range of combat that needs addressing. By similar analogy, BJJ doesn't really deal with somebody trying to beat on you very much, and that needs addressing.

I too would be eaten alive by top level MAists or fighters. My experience is limited and I hardly consider myself a master.

We are all limited by our physical abilities; I think this is a frequently ignored fact.

[Steven T. Richards]

Merry 'P',

With you all the way - and the point about systems limitations is a great prompt for further discussion or even a new thread?

Cheers,

Steve.

[David Jamieson]

yes, my style has all the answers :D and...AND it will provide them for you before you can even ask the question.

just kidding, but the Kung Fu I have been taught is pretty comprehensive. There are techniques I have only recently discovered applications for even after my Sifu has shown me mutiple applications for the greater body of what he has taught me. So, it's always an eye opener.

As for stylist over style, well in a fight, yes this is true, but it is also true that the one who has invested the most of himself into the training of his style will likely be the victor in combat, I mean, that is the whole point of training to fight with a martial art right?

anyway, my sifu makes a point of thoroughly training his students from buck novice all the way down the path. So, the answers are there, they just have to be looked for or discovered.

so any style has "all" the answers really. It's the stylist who has to ask the right questions.

peace

[Merryprankster]

Steve,

It used to be a great thread to start if you wanted to fight about something, but most of the "MY STYLE IS THE BEST AND HAS NO WEAKNESSES AND OUR GRANDMASTER COULD WHIP EVERYBODY WITH ONE HAND TIED TO HIS ANUS," guys have given up the Kung-Fu forum in disgust, claiming that this forum "doesn't talk about Kung-Fu, anymore." :rolleyes:

The "striker," types have come to understand that grappling is a remarkably sophisticated set of skills, just like stand-up work, and the "grapplers RULE!" types have slowly drifted off to other pursuits because, not only are they wrong, it's hard to troll here like that anymore.

That said, I think this forum handles conceptual questions wonderfully, which is kind of where we all need to be headed anyway, to improve our own games.

That said, a good grappler will beat the pants off of any stand-up kung-fu man with one hand tied to his anus
:D :D

[Steven T. Richards]

Hi Kung,

My practical experience taught me that Kung-Fu can (if the situation ALLOWS) give you a real edge, but it can all go wrong as real life isn't anything like so convinient as to always give us the advantage in controlling sudden, psychpathically generated attacks.

Would that it did...

Cheers,

Steve.

[Steven T. Richards]

Hi Merry 'P',

Point taken... it's this virtual world I guess;)

Cheers Friend,

Steve.

[Merryprankster]

I quite agree with you though.

I think I'll start it.

[David Jamieson]

Steve-

Are you a psyche nurse?

Or are you speaking of just someone attacking you on the street in a psychopathic way?

Kung Fu training will still do you good even when things do go terribly wrong. Psychos or not :D

peace

[Steven T. Richards]

Kung 'L',

Analytical psychotherapist. (ex Police officer).

[don bohrer]

I would like to think Kenpo has what it takes for every situation. But I realize that really depends on if I can dictate the terms of the encounter. When the enviroment or the other joe controls the situation then NO! Kenpo does give me a wide range of tools to work with as long as I can get them out of the bag to use them! With all being equal I imagine the prize goes to the one who works hardest to attain it.

[David Jamieson]

Well Steve, I don't envy your position.

The likelyhood of attack increases with and dependent upon the environment you are in or put yourself in.

So, your Kung fu training, or any martial training really, would likely face the anvil in those professions.

Experience is a great teacher.

peace

[Steven T. Richards]

Hi Kung 'L',

I try to keep my head down;)

What's your system(s) BTW ?

Steve.