Overtraining with Calisethenics?(sp?)

[Apprentice]

Hopefully u guys know what i mean by that, but if ya dont, i mean like pushups/situps maybe even pullups n jogging...but how much is too much with those? Should you train to sets of failure, near failure? Just enough to be warmed up n stay warmed up? How often is safe to do em?

Wrestlers do pushups, and jog, and sprint, THEN wrestle, like 6 times a day, is this healthy? I thoguht you need to allow your muscles time to grow...do they grow back faster with just calisthenics? Can you push em more when using only your body weight? This is somethign i really would like to know, i plan on working out with basically, ONLY calisenthetics,(i have no weights) and as hard as it's safe, what are the rules for that? Wrestlers tell me their sore alot(especially when they first start out)....advice guys?

[Apprentice]

anyone?

[Robinf]

Growth happens during recovery or rest periods. If you want to grow anything--your strength, size, endurance--you need to rest.

You can overdo even with "just body weight" exercises. You're still lifting weight--you.

Robin

[Apprentice]

but do you recover faster from bodyweight exercises? How intense should you do them? Failure? Failure, rest, failure? more? Less? I'd like to do them as much/safe as possible

[IronFist]

You said you want to do them as much as possible. If you want to do them frequently, don't go to failure.

Recovery times don't really have all that much to do with bodyweight vs. freeweights. If you do a set of bench press, for example, one rep at your maximum weight, you won't be sore at all the next day. But if you do, say, 5 sets of pushups to failure, you will be sore the next day. So, soreness is not necessarily dependent upon what the weight type is.

Maybe try cycling pushups. Do 2 sets of 5 one day, 2 sets of 10 the next day, and so on until you get sore, then start over 2 sets of 6, two sets of 11, I dunno, I made that up.

There's a thread here someone with a sweet pushups program I gave a link to. But, I forgot where the thread is. It involves doing pushups every other day and sometimes consecutive days. Try it.

But pretty much, if you're not sore or overly tired the next day, you're not overtraining.

Iron

[ElPietro]

Soreness is not a guage of a successful workout. Many people don't get sore...or get sore for different reasons than others. If you go to failure and do not get sore it doesn't matter...if you are going to failure your muscles have no choice but to respond by growing or getting stronger.

[Apprentice]

are you suggesting working to failure El pietro? and forcing your muscles to grow? or what? i dont quite get what ya mean...

and iron, that link'd be nice :D pretty plz?

[IronFist]

I'm just saying that you don't have to go to failure to see results. In fact, going to failure every workout will often result in overtraining.

I never said soreness was a gauge of anything. I just think it's something to be avoided if you're a MA... after all, if your legs are sore one day from a workout, and you get in a fight that day, you're kinda at a disadvantage. I also didn't mean to imply that failure has anything to do with soreness.

ElPeitro - we usually agree on stuff, don't we. Oh well :P

Iron

[IronFist]

Regardless of anything, if you DO get sore, do NOT work the muscles while they are sore. You can work other muscles, tho.

For example, if your pecs are sore one day, do NOT work pecs until they have healed. You could still work biceps or back or legs or whatever tho.

Iron

[xiong]

I'm with Ironfist on this one. Soreness should be avoided. I like his idea of a stepped progression, similar to the periodic strength training idea.

Going to failure once in awhile to push youself and gauge your progress is not a bad idea, however I am a strong believer in daily workouts that build slowly as your strength and endurance increase.

That being said I don't train daily, although I'd like to.

Listen to your body, sometimes our muscles are smarter than we are.

[ElPietro]

Iron I don't think I was disagreeing with you necessarily, just that there seemed to be a lot of focus on soreness and what it meant. Yes, you should not train when your muscles are sore, Yes your training can be at a disadvantage if your muscles are still sore. Generally if you are doing cardio training while sore the soreness will go away once you are warmed up but your strength will not be the same because your muscles are still recovering.

I do disagree with the statement that going to failure leads to overtraining. Although, anything can lead to overtraining going to failure just means that you will need more rest between workouts so you must tailor your program accordingly. I go to failure on most exercises and as a result I only weight train on average twice a week. I think not training to failure can also lead to overtraining, and if you are avoiding soreness how do you know when your muscles have fully recovered? Recovery time is very much an individual thing, as is how sore you get.

Soreness will decrease a bit as your muscles, and motors get attuned to working out so it will not be as bad if you keep it up for a while.

There are many ways to work out and everyone responds differently...there are bad ways to work out but I don't think Iron or I are promoting anything like that. Yes you can workout 5 or 6 days a week using lighter weights but you will not have the same gains as working out heavily 2 or 3 times a week in a given period of time. But I understand you are concerned about reducing soreness so you can practice MA so by all means do things that way if you wish. So apprentice if you are asking what I'm suggesting then it would be dependant on your goals. If quick strength and size gains are your goal then I'd say go to failure, give your body a couple days at least to recover afterwards. If you want to make weight training a daily activity then do as Iron suggested.

I work to failure using a two day push/pull split and still am ok training MA 2-3 times per week. Yeah sometimes it's tough if I decide to max out one day but you get used to it.

[Apprentice]

Now THAT, was very helpful...

I am gonna start training to failure, only a couple times a week(when soreness wears off)...i dont study MA yet, so i can push myself harder, and that way once i do get started in MA, i will be stronger, with more endurance, im gonna experiment, seeing how far i can push myself while being sore for a miminal amount of time, i once heard..."If you are sore, it's good, cuz your working muscles(or parts of them) that you've never worked before"...i'm assuming that its also working them in a way they never been worked before as well...but from my workouts(which are pretty intense) i never get sore, if i feel like "If i do 1 more set, im gonna be sore the next morning" i dont do it(saftey first)...and thats interesting about the cardio thing, i did not know that...

[Ford Prefect]

As many powerlifters have been quoted as saying, "Training to failure is training to fail."

[IronFist]

Sweet quote Ford.

Hey Apprentice, if you're insistant upon training to failure, try doing it on like only your last set of something (pushups for example).

Now, here's more info to confuse you.

There are kind of two "failures."

One is like, say you do 60 pushups and that's your max. If you do 60, and fail at 60, you will probably be experiencing the "burn," get a good pump (hehe, go bodybuilding :) ) and probably be sore the next day, especially if you do numerous sets to failure.

Now, imagine your 1RM (one rep max) on bench press is 200lbs. If you load up the bar with 185 and pound out two reps, and fail on the second, you probably won't be in much pain at all, as lactic acid hasn't had a chance to accumulate yet, and you probably won't be sore the next day, but you still failed as you couldn't push the bar up a 3rd time.

I don't know if there are different internal reasons for these two types of failure, or even if they are in fact different, but it's just been my experience that they exist.

Have fun,

Iron

[Apprentice]

now i AM confused...nah, not really, but i think i'll do it "Semi-Pyramid" style..(my own way kinda)...do a warmup with some shadowboxing then start the exercises in appropriate order, and do a few pushups(say, 15), rest, then do them to failure, then do them to a little lower than failure, and then littler lower, and gradually decrease(it'll be harder each time)...then with my abs, im gonna blast em Xtra hard(they can be pushed more)...thats what i think i'll do...cuz after u work a long time, your "Lactic Acid" builds up, so im gonna go to failure, BEFORE i get a chance to build up the lactic acid(instead of on the last set), then im still pushing myself, but wont be building up too much lactic acid, which causes soreness...thnx for the replies tho

[IronFist]

Lactic acid causes soreness DURING exercise, but not afterwards. Actually, as far as I know, no one knows exactly what causes DOMS (delayed onset muscle soreness), the soreness you get after a hard workout.

Matt Furey sells these bands that increase pushup resistance. I've never used them and they might suck, but in theory they look cool. www.mattfurey.com

Iron

[ElPietro]

Originally posted by Ford Prefect
As many powerlifters have been quoted as saying, "Training to failure is training to fail."

Wow...how whitty...i wish I could speak as intelligently as all the powerlifters out there. Considering powerlifters train low volume that statement really makes no sense...

...how about training to the limit so that you can make gains and accomplishments? If you don't push yourself you are going nowhere...but at least you'll be able to do 500 bicep curls using the pink dumbell...