Yang Cheng fu

[NafAnal]

I posted this on the taiji forum, probably belongs there but this forum is more alive.... A while back someone mentioned that a natural style boxer beat him.... I don't know much about taiji so can anybody give me any info about Yang cheng fu or this other fighter? WHen did this so called match happen?

[Leonidas]

Yea' I mentioned that fat b*st*rd Yang Cheng fu. I don't remember the year but he lost a fight to the practitioner of Ziranmen(sp?). Then the creator of Wu Style had to come and whip the guys a$$ so the Tai Chi crowd wouldn't lose "face", but ironically it made Cheng fu more famous for fighting such a well known fighter even though he lost. The Wu Grandmaster was d*mn near 60 somethin', but Yang didn't make it passed his 50's. In my opinion he ruined Yang style because his fat a$$ could do the forms properly, but he was the style bearer so he could do anything he wanted. Also some people argue they can still use it to fight and they probably can. Still, i woulda liked to learn the "lengendary" Yang Lu Chan's original form. Cheng fu probably won so many fights beacuse he had skill but he mainly intimidated people. Would you wanna fight Yang Lu Chans grandson. He was also the size of a f*ckin' Sumo Wrestler. Even Wu styles been b*st*rdized from what people say. Only one that hasn't is Chen and some people dont even consider it real Tai Chi? They won't say it to your face but hey, what do they know.

[Leonidas]

I know it seems harsh but thats just my rant. I'm sure he could still whip my a$$, and i'm sure he was a nice guy but that has nothing to do with fighting skill. I have nothing against the guy but i'm tired of people laying down "improvements" on everything. Just leave sh*t alone. Some things don't need to be changed.

[NorthernShaolin]

The Natural Boxer or Spontaneous Boxing master was Wan Li Sheng, who was one of the Five Tigers who went South. He also is known for his Northern Shaolin. He was one of the few MA who was educated and wrote a book on CMA in 1927 which is now a classic and a collector's item.

When he fought Yang, he did not use external style to defeat Yang but beat Yang at his own method; pushing hands. Wan Li Sheng actually lifted Yang off the ground.

:) :cool:

[Yung Apprentice]

I'm new to CMA. Who are all these guys you all are talking about? Some guy wooped on anotha dude with Tai Chi?

[Leonidas]

H*ll yea, i'm about to take up Wu style at Leung Shum's school. It's a good fighting style but most lazy slobs, old people or hippies won't get any real skill, thats why most people give you a funny look when you say you practice Martial arts and it's Tai Chi, people lie about there skill in any style though (D*mn hippies and posers) I hope i dont turn out that way. Most of the early Tai Chi practitioners were Bodyguards and if you know any history you know how dangerous the Silk Road was. Some of the Imperial Bodyguards used Tai Chi at one time so it had to be first rate. Back to your question, Wu Jian Quan (sp?) wiped the floor with a Ziranmen stylist after he beat Yang Cheng fu.

[Yung Apprentice]

I know Tai Chi has a self-defense aspect to it.Is it considered external?

[Xebsball]

Its considered internal dude, and its pretty cool. They have strikes, throws that need almost no strength...

[MonkeySlap Too]

I was told that Yang was frioends by a prominent (and younger) Shuai Chiao stylist who protected him when he lived in Shanghai.

Anyone else hear this story?

[bamboo_ leaf]

“ I have nothing against the guy but i'm tired of people laying down "improvements" on everything. Just leave sh*t alone. Some things don't need to be changed.”

So your ability is such that you can judge what is an “improvement” and what is not by a famous master ? :cool:

bamboo leaf

[NorthernMantis]

Leonidas my sifu's husband is Yang Chen Fu's grandstudent and he has some ofthe best Taiji around,Huang Wai Lun--heard of him?Yang Chen Fu might have lost,I don't know anything about the fight, but it doesn't mean he couldn't lay the smack down.

[Leonidas]

I would like to have the choice before the whole style is changed up. How am i s'pose to gain the skills of my Teacher if he's laying down improvements to the original style he was taught. Why can't he just change his own way of fighting, instead of the entire system. How would anyone know if it needed improvements in the first place. Everyone has their own opinions on whats effective or not. If you make improvements and start teaching that to everyone you have the same dilemna that you started with. Someone may be inches shorter or taller, weigh 50 pounds more or less. maybe their alot quicker or slower. Whats i'm saying is you should teach the original way and let people make their own personal improvements because thats what occurs anyhow. No 2 people fight the same even doing the same system. 2 different teachers usually have their own interpretation of an art no matter what the lineage holder teaches officially. Yang Chen fu was over 300 pounds. He claims to have changed so it was easier for the public to perform the excercises, but i suspect it was easier for himself. I hope everyone understands where i'm coming from.

[bamboo_ leaf]

A little confused please help me.
By org. do you mean the org. 13 postures.

The org. style before the Chen style.


what org. TC style?

As for me i don't care much about the outside of the box only whats in it. ;)

[solur]

I study Wu-Style Taijiquan from my teacher, Jingyu Gu, in Austin, TX. We definitely learn the combat applications of taijiquan, but my teacher does not focus on it for a long time. He is very good, he learned from Master Ruan Rong-Gen, a second-generation student in direct lineage from Wu Jian-Quan.

Learning from a real teacher has changed the way I think of CMA for ever. I used to be very skeptical, until I could actually witness internal power first hand.

[Leonidas]

I dont know much about the 13 postures either. What i'm saying is that I think when Yang Lu Chan made his style of Tai Chi it didn't need to be changed. Everyone doesn't have to add their 2 cents by subtracting forms and movements. If it's not something stylistically different then why bother. You can obviously tell the difference between Chen, Yang, Wu, Hao, Sun, Li, Zhao and Chang. I'm not saying there shouldn't be improvements or we would all be studying the same martial arts, but why can't you give me the same choice your Master gave you. Instead of something watered down based on your own body type. Some styles even demand that the Instructor teach everything that he was taught and not hold anything back.

[Royal Dragon]

Hi,
I do the Chao family version of the Yang style. Chao, Yuh Feng was freinds with Yang Chen Fu (suposedly). My guess is he learned his Taji from the man himself.

We have the 8 postures done in a straight line form, as well as the 4 gates and 8 gates. Our basic form is the 64 move form, it's mostly an expansion on the 8 gates. Then, our advanced form is the 37 move form. It looks like a standard Yang style Short form, with all the repetitive techniques removed. We have no long form though. I would like to learn it someday, but I want the authentic set, not some watered down adjusted form.

Anyone ever see the 118 move Yang style from from Yang Jwing Ming? What's the opinion of that set?

Royal Dragon

[Black Jack]

It's good to see that your still in the R&D stage Royal.

I find the most interesting discussions on this board come from the people who really play and work with there systems.

Hows it going.:)

[Shaolindynasty]

When someone learns a martial art it is THEIR business what they do with it. If you don't like the changes sombody makes on a system then don't learn from them it is as simple as that. He told people he changed it so it's not like he "duped" people out of money. Nobody should really have any say in what someone does with THEIR art.

[bamboo_ leaf]

“I would like to learn it someday, but I want the authentic set, not some watered down adjusted form.”

If I may offer a slightly different perspective. :cool:

If you could do just the opening “most styles call it raise hands” with in all the TC principles I believe you would have the whole system.

Some of the older teachers will not teach beyond this if you can’t get it right.
I learned this the hard way. “ again please”

Just using this movement a noted teacher “Ben Lo” could toss a person into a wall. I'm sure many here could give contless ways this simple (maybe not so simple) movement can be used.

I think the TC is already inside, a teacher just helps you to find it.
IMHO The method he/she uses is not important as long as the teacher has the real skill.
Constantly looking for the “real deal or the org set” these are achievements by people who found it. They found it with in themselves and passed a method down for others to follow.

I think many mistake the method for what they found.

I echo what Black Jack, said. You must test it and find out if your skill is true or not.

Before doing this I would make sure I had a good handle on what I thought I was doing.


luck in your training :)

[Leonidas]

Thanx for stating something i already posted. Maybe you didn't read all of my first post but i already said Lineage Holders can do whatever they want with their own style. I just wish it wasn't this way. It's called courtesy. I should have the opportunity to learn a style exactly the way it was taught when first conceived. The same one your Sigung became so skillful in. He didn't train in the "watered" down art he's passing down

[GLW]

One thing that a lineage holder should do and that most don't is FIRST, preserve the system. This means that the absolute first priority is to make sure that none of the original system is lost.

Just how many students of ANY school try to do that? Personally, I consider it a great compliment when someone says that they can TELL that I learned a long time from my teacher....(Now, of course, I might not feel that way if my teacher were not quite well known and respected...who knows...)

After preserving the system, then the lineage holder or anyone else for that matter can add to things or do things any which way they want..... This allows the art to grow...

The trick here is that they should teach the original lineage first and then the new stuff.... Sort of a "Do it this way, beginner or intermediate person...." Then with an advanced student, "Let me show you a slightly different approach or a different routine, application, etc...."

Then, if a student does not learn to the advanced levels, they at least have the original stuff that they do to a standard level.

For Yang Style, Fu Zhongwen was of this mind set. His goal was to preserve and pass on the Yang style that he learned from Yang Chengfu as close to how YCF did it.... In earlier years, many insulted him for staying so close to his teacher's methods and for looking too much like YCF in flavor and approach. In later years, many applauded him for this because even the family members did not get this due to their age when YCF died.

Now, you can dislike Yang Chengfu for modifying the art...but at least what he did was preserved. The pity is that his father's, uncle's , and grandfather's methods are essentially lost. Many claim to have systems from each of them but none of those claims can be truly substantiated. It is even worse because many who make the claims to having those methods are sources where applying logic to the likelihood of thim truly having what they claim produces a VERY low probability of truth...not impossible but unlikely.

Question:
how many people first try to get what they are being taught before they move on to being 'creative'?

[Yung Apprentice]

wouldn't the combo of internal and external be better than one or the other? Forgive me if I'm ignorant.

[bamboo_ leaf]

“The same one your Sigung became so skillful in. He didn't train in the "watered" down art he's passing down”

Like many others you mistake types and quantity of movement for quality.

Be careful about the watered down TC you speak of, if you can’t swim, it may drown you.

[Shaolindynasty]

The arts are all abstract. If you are trying to acumulate the physical movements instead of the essence of the art(I am not just talking physical principles) your journey will end in ruin(deep huh). Chasing original movements or worring about the politics of lineage or treating KUngfu like a preservation act may help the physical movements of the art BUT it won't help you in your total development. Comments like those shows me what Bruce Lee meant byt people bcoming slaves to the traditional arts. If your passion is preservation fine but don't down others for following the path and rising to a higher realm of understanding. On the other hand some change arts now just to be cool but that's off topic from this thread.

[Ky-Fi]

Royal D.,

I practice Dr. Yang's long Yang form. Sort of going along with what ShaolinDynasty said, if you're looking for a "historically authentic" form, then Dr. Yang probably wouldn't be the teacher for you. Don't quote me on this, but I believe Dr. Yang has said he's changed about 15% of the form from what he was taught, based on his evolving understanding and preference. He also mixes in aspects of White Crane in the apps and qigong when he feels the principles are compatible with Taiji principles. The form in his latest book looks different than the one in his first book, and he's assured us that it will probably look slightly different again in 20 years :).

[GLW]

"Chasing original movements or worring about the politics of lineage or treating KUngfu like a preservation act may help the physical movements of the art BUT it won't help you in your total development. "

OK....but preservation of things CAN be important if you are in a position of preserving the lineage for your style or teacher. That is one of the reasons a teacher picks a student or certain students to carry on the lineage...the teacher trusts that the chosen student gets the details, knows the history, FULLY comprehends the core theory and concepts of the art....and will remember where it came from and how it came down BEFORE making the modifications that are part of normal evolution.

How many people do you know who have changed things in what they learned...not because the old way did not work but because they either couldn't do it the right way, couldn't remember the right way, or didn't understand the right way....?

From my experience, 90% of them do this. The 10% who truly get it are rare finds. This is why the sayings in Chinese about years to find a teacher and a teacher spending years testing a student for worthiness came about.


"Comments like those shows me what Bruce Lee meant byt people bcoming slaves to the traditional arts."

Learning takes on the same stages for everyone...there is learning to do what you are taught, then comes analysis....then finally comes synthesis...the act of putting together many things, finding how they work together, and then taking it to a new level.

Problem is most people want to go to synthesis before they did learning and analysis.... To truly free yourself of the rules, you have to know what they are and why they are first....then you will know which ones can be broken or how to break them in advantageous ways.....


"If your passion is preservation fine but don't down others for following the path and rising to a higher realm of understanding. "

Not downing others...the point of the post was WHAT a lineage holder is expected to do....If you don't want to take on the mantel of lineage successor...then don't claim to be one is my point. Many make this claim but then change things...and don't remember what it was first and why they changed it.....Often they fall into the category in the last quote below.....

"On the other hand some change arts now just to be cool but that's off topic from this thread."

Although I think that Lee has been quoted to death...to use one of his "Before I learned, a punch was just a punch, a kick just a kick. Before I understood, a punch was a series of moves - a kick was a series of moves. When I understood, a punch became just a punch, a kick just a kick" I may have messed up the EXACT quote...but then again, I am not claiming to be the preserver of his material....:)

[Shaolindynasty]

I agree with you on alot of points GLW, alot of people do change things cause of lack of understanding or because they may not physically be able to do things but I feel Yang Chengfu may have been in that other 10%.

Lineage holders present an interesting challenge as far as the actual duties for me since I am not really sure the full extent of this responseability. From what I do know though and my understanding of MA a lineage holder is NOT nessacary and causes more problems than it solves(I am going to get in trouble now!). I guess what I mean is that if a Sifu trains 5 people and oks them to teach then they should all be qualified to carry on the art right? At this point I don't really feel there should be a "leader or boss" over them. Any body who is "qualified" as an instructor by his sifu should be trusted to make his own desions on what direction he should take his personal philosophies and teaching. So if 5 are qualified to teach by their instructor then there should be 5 lineage heads(of their own schools). Appointing a lineage head does more to hold back and is the cause of more styles deaths than just about anything I can think of. I am personally against this particular tradition.

p.s. Bruce quotes are tired but somtimes they fit so well;)

[Royal Dragon]

Black jack,
Yup, I'm ALWAYS in th R&D mode. I'm the type that continually tries to discredit everything, always looking for the one thing I can't discredit. Haven't found it yet though, but when I do, I'll let Ya know. Research never stops with me. I thinki I **** people off because I keep asking the same questions over and over again, from as many people as I can. I've actually had people tell me ' Hey!! if you were'nt going to listen to my answer, why did you ask te question of me?". They never got it.

Shaolin Dynasty,

As far as preservation goes, I think it is important to do. For me, "I" want the original style, movements, pricipals, mechanics, techinques EVERYTHING just as the creator of the style did and practiced and taught. Why you ask? Because I recognise the creator of a style as an exceptionally gifted individual, and I want to know and understand "His" way of doing things BEFORE I start adding, subtracting, modifying or changing things. I will also TEACH that way as well. My students will learn as close to the original system as possisble. Then once they have THAT Mastered, I will teach adaptations I have learned or figured out myself AND I will encourage them to do so as well. After all, THAT is the final step towards true mastery.

I think too many people are trying too hard to reinvent the wheel in today's Martial world. Often they don't have the know how or the experiance and understanding to actualy beable to do it and come up with a functional adaptation on the original or even a new system. I think many are under trained, and then "Claim" to have invented or refined or "Fixed" or improved things just to cover for thier own lack of experiance and knowledge. My modifacations of Don F Dreggars Louhan form (From his book ) are a perfect example. I have no teaching or training in this system, all I did was work the form out of the book. there are things in there that DON'T make sense, so I reworked them so they do make sense. But "I" don't have any foudation in that style, and what "I" see as flaws may very well be in there for a reason. A practitoner of the Louhan style may see what I have done and just laugh at me saying "this idiot ovbiously has no clue".

To me I improved it, and to him I may have ruined it. Now "If" I have the same level of knowedge as he, I would understand. But only learning the "Correct" and "Authentic" style would qualify me to judge either way.

Don't be so quick to pitch the baby with the bathwater!!

Royal Dragon

[Merryprankster]

Wow.

People move to synthesis before getting their art?

What a bizarre concept to me. I mean, I wrestled, right? But I would NEVER think of using wrestling ground work in my BJJ. Some of the takedowns yeah, but not the ground work. It's different enough that I wouldn't do it.

Why would anybody move to synthesis before they've figured out exactly what they are DOING?!

How simply strange

[Royal Dragon]

I used to know this bruce lee quoting dude, he spent time in like six different arts in three years, and was always mixing and matching trying to find his "Tao". Last I saw, he was doing JKD because it was a syntasis of all the best stuff. I have talked online with a number of others of that mindset over the years, and it always amazes me how people can just leearn a bunch of techniques from different sources, never fully understand them, yet act like experts in all systems. I especially love the guy that 'Fixes" all the traditional arts, as if they all had majior flaws and needed to be updated for modern times by "him".

If you look at it, nothing really new has happened in the fight scene in a thousand years or so. Violent conferntations are still pretty much the same now as they were then, only the chances of facing a gun are more real, and if you do, no amount of Kung Fu is going to stop a bullet anyway. So what's the point of reinventing the wheel? the Traditional stuff wrks today, just as it did in ancient times, fighting is fighting. Things are no more brutal now then they were then, in fact they are generally less so if no gun is involved. Back in the day everyone had a blade of some kind. anything from short daggars to fulll blown swords. Now, if your NOT getting shot you're just facing a small knife.

Not that I feel a knife is no threat mind you, but you can only do so may things with them and I'm sure the ancient knife fighters were doing alll the same stuff with knifes then, as the knife fighters today do, only they had more time to practice where as we work 40+ hours a week and just do this stuff on the side.

The Empty hand is empty hand. Fighting is ever changeing and in constant flux. the old systems knew this and flexibility is built into thoses ancient systems. So I don't see the need to invent new systems by going around and taking bits and peices of different arts and combining and "Fixing" them in the name of "evolution" and "modernasation". When I see someone say they teach a system that has been updated for modern times I always chuckle, becaue fighting is fighting, and To me it just says the practitioner that does this stuff just does not understand the nature of fighting and the MA's in general.

RD

[Leonidas]

Some people still dont understand. Who's to decide if the modified version of an art is better than the original if that's all you trained in. The essence of an art is in it's original form. Improvements are not bad at all and i dont even consider adding a few moves as bad as deleting parts of an entire form. Would you consider Yang Cheng fu more skilled than Yang Lu Chan? He was 300+ pounds. Of course he couldn't do the movements like they were originally made. Not with all the Fa-jing, low stances, kicks and changes in tempo. What could Yang Cheng Fu had thought of that his Grandfather didn't. Why would you consider the original form lower in quality, and as for being a slave to traditonal martial arts. Every hybrid style created today is based on older arts. Even Bruce Lee couldn't escape it. he couldn't just pulled a bunch of techniques out of his a$$. Even he had to ask for "traditional" training. Like someone mentioned earlier. The way people fight hasn't changed at all, punches are thrown the same way they were the first time a man violently attacked another. On the issue of Lineage holders. If they are qualified to teach a specific art then thats what they should teach. If they want to make improvements they should show some respect and get approved from their teachers. If that teacher is dead, then teach the improvements to advanced students. Many great arts have been destroyed because people take it upon themselve to make changes and then it looks nothing like it originally did. Then the cycle continnues and the new students say "hey if he did it, so can i" and they even take credit for a "new art". Just because you are qualified doesn't mean your a master. Unless you truly master something you wont fully understand it's limitations. Thats like not following the instructions to build say a boat, then when it finally sinks you call it a peice of junk and you get angry at the manufacturer. Even though your not an expert you call them a bunch of idiots and you build what you think is an improvement in their design. But how would you know? I have nothing against the new Yang form. But come on dont you think it would be great to learn what Yang Lu Chan taught:cool:

[bamboo_ leaf]

No, what he taught is not actually what people learned.

You keep talking about some type ORG. TC. So please what is the org TC.

[Shaolindynasty]

You guys are missing MY point. I am not talking about low class unexperienced people creating systems cause they style jumped around. I am talking about somone speding some good quality trainig time and maybe making some changes here and there, I don't see a problem with that. Like I said before it is a matter of choice after all it is up to you what you learn. I am sure Yang Cheng Fu didn't force his teaching on anyone, so obviously sombody found use in it.

[Royal Dragon]

true, but I bet his students would have wanted to learn the same as he was originally taugt, and then decide for themselves what changes, "if" any were needed for themselves.

That is really the mind sett of most "Traditionalists" We just want nthe original art as it was developed and perfected by it's founders. any changes that are made should be done by US a we see fit for ourselves. Then, we STILL teach as we learned and only pass our "improvements" as an accessory to the original.

I don't want to learn genrations of forms added by sucessive practitoners or worse modifacations of existing forms due to the needs of current conditions, just the core system as it was taught at it's time of perfection. For Tai Tzu, probually around the Ming dynasty.

Royal Dragon

[Leonidas]

Royal Dragon's got the point. No matter if it's the Yang style or any style for that matter. Even though Yang Cheng fu told people he deleted moves it doesn't make it right. He's the styles owner yea, but what about the masters taught before he was even born. Those not even in the Yang family but are obviously older and more experienced than him. The example i gave before doesn't just apply to unskilled people creating systems. Just look how much Yang Cheng fu's form got modified even to present day. By for example, Cheng Man Ching and the many people who made offshoots after him. The form that Yang Cheng fu's Grandfather made is probably lost forever. If it wasn't changed in the first place then no one would of though it was ok. I'm sure no one here are just seeking forms. But people do want to learn a style the way it was meant no matter what it is. If you look at any part of this forum you'll see p*ss*ng battles about what is legit and not. This was caused by people, master or not thinking they knew what's best. Now according to what you say none of them are really wrong. No matter how absurd anyone thinks it is since they dont have to answer to any "boss".

[taijiquan_student]

I myself have a lot of problems with YCF changing the art, but if the art can't change, would it have been created in the first place? What I mean is, why aren't people ragging on Yang Lu Chan for changing the Chen Family's art?
Just a thought.

[Stacey]

He didn't change the system he changed the intro. Since most people can't even understand the intro, they think thats the system. The core of tai chi is the same. It involves way more stance training than most people beleive and at the higher levels has what appear to be external training methods.

Its not about peace and love its about breaking people.

Most tai chi teachers either don't know or guard it with their life. If you want to learn tai chi.....take up aikido. I'm not kidding many of the applications are identical.

[bamboo_ leaf]

I think your still confusing outer perspectives with achieving a type of inner realty

To speak of what was the org TC. Kind of implies that it was developed by one source.

Org could mean the first few movements that where called TC, the idea of TC or following as close as possible to one of the family styles known as Chen, Yang or Wu.

Training methods, it’s pointless to talk of secret methods or higher methods if you can’t meet some of the more basic common requirements of all or most TC styles. As Stacy said "common core"

Once you can, then it becomes a matter of preference. Any one of these styles can lead you to an understanding although it is recognized that some are much harder and have fewer people that actually achieve the standered.


Sounds like your still looking for the box or teacher and you have it before you.

people only get borken if they want to.

[Leonidas]

Listen, we can go on about this for days. None of us will change our minds on the subject. I'm not talking about the Original Tai Chi created by whoever. I was referring to Yang style created by Yang Lu Chan. It can also mean any style in general. I dont rag on Yang Lu Chan because he's not the Lineage Holder for Chen Style Tai Chi. He admitted it was changed, but it wasn't his responsibility to keep the tradition going. He just wanted to teach what he learned from the Chen family and his own experience. That's why people made the difference. It's up to the holder to keep what he was taught alive. I guess my rant is not with Yang Cheng fu alone(maybe it's just with modern Tai Chi students) . But it's possible that no one will ever practice what Yang Lu Chan created ever again. Give Yang family Tai Chi another hundred years and it may not even be a martial art anymore, but will be known as a health excercise. Yang Cheng fu himself said it shouldn't be changed anymore but everyones taking artistic license. I realize his changes allow it to still be useful, but what good reason was there to change in the first place? I dont need to mention Yang Cheng fu's weight again which makes me think their were other reasons for what he did. I'd rather have a thousand different styles than to change something that someone perfected their entire life. If it's not worth anything let people decide. The only thing that may let Yang family Tai Chi survive is peoples knowledge of other styles. Anyway, these are my opinions and i guess it really has to do with responsibilty and what i think is respectful, of course you have your own.........and Stacy what does Aikido have to do with this.

[Royal Dragon]

did'nt Yang Lu Shan create the Yang style because the Chen family would'nt teach him thier secrets? Or was it because he really did'nt like the Royal family so he watered it down for them?

In the end, I think it's pretty easy to say Yang Lu Shan had a good system that needed no improvement as a whole. May argue Yang Chen fu's "Improvements" were infact more watering down of the style. In this case, I think most of us want to learn the original, and then adjust it to suit OUR nees, NOT the needs of Yang Chen Fu.

Still, the original should be taught as the founder intended, then and only then should it be adjusted.

The way "I" see it, were lossing out on knowledge that can never be replaced when things are "removed, shortened and simplified".

Now, if you remove, shorten and simplify, that's all fine and dandy, but then once I've gone through "That" progression (stepping stones), give me the real thing, I'll take the final steps to mastery myself by making my own modifacations or inventing new stuff based on MY needs.

RD

[Ky-Fi]

I just think you're fooling yourself if you claim to be teaching or learning the "original" style from generations ago. The founders of styles may have been exceptional individuals, but they weren't gods---they had their limitations, personal weaknesses and biases, they learned in environments that can't be duplicated, and they had limited resources to learn from---as did all their successive students.

Even students who learn from the same teacher will end up with different systems. My teacher said that his White Crane master used to tell him that "If I end up with 10 top students during my lifetime of teaching, then when they become masters there should be 10 new styles of White Crane." Different people have different attributes, and focus on different aspects of the art. Some people may be more skilled at chin na, and really focus on that---others may like the sword, and that's their best skill, others may put their focus on study of body mechanics. As human beings with finite time on Earth, there's no way you can reach the absolute highest levels of every aspect of your art. The more time you spend on sword, the less time you spend on chin na. If you've truly learned from a good teacher, then you should be learning techniques that your teacher believes in because they WORK, not something he's teaching you because it's "part of the style". My teacher always says "everytime I tell you something, put a question mark after it in your head----if you beleive it just because I tell you, then that's brainwashing---if you believe it because you test it out and it works, then that's comprehending." Of course, when successive teachers have such strict criteria, and are constantly critically analyzing their own techniques, the vast majority of stuff they teach WILL be effective, and should be kept. I've been studying my style for 4 years, and I'm not at the level where I can or would change anything---but that option is left open to me(even encouraged) if I stay with the style long enough to master it and approach my teacher's level of understanding------there may very well be things that I would do and teach differently.

I agree that if you're claiming to teach a specific style, then you should keep a core curriculum that pretty much covers the spectrum of the art and teaches the principles methods and the theories of that style in depth. And of course I agree that if you start changing, adding or subtracting things before you've reached a very high level in the style then your art will be flawed, and it will be a step backward for the style.

But, teaching things you really can't use effectively yourself, or teaching things you don't believe in, doesnt' help your art in the long run, IMO.

:)Hence my signature:

[Leonidas]

As mentioned before, the only thing that has changed in the way people try to kill each other is the addition of the gun. Of course no situation can be duplicated, not even if you try to. MA styles are s'pose to train you to deal with any situation but thats not the point. The 10 students 10 styles quote would also eventually cause problems. How would the art look eventually after 1000 "top" students "mastered" it (so to speak) and made changes? Would it be the same style? Would it even have the same theories? Would you even be able to call the style by its original name? How would someone know if the new changes wouldn't get you killed in a battle? What if the "top" students have flawed opinions? Did they use the new techniques in a fight like their predecessors? If a technique is in an old style it's most likely already proven effective many times over. Theres no need to question that if it's survived. Why would you train an art if you questioned its effectiveness. The old survival of the fittest rule applies to MA too. If i choose to learn from someone then it's because i admit that they are wiser and more experienced than me. If i go in knowing nothing then how would i know if what they are teaching me is correct. An instructors responsibility is to teach someone correctly in the first place. Thats the nature of CMA, half the moves look "flowery" and inapplicable anyway. If i'm questioning everything you do then i wont learn anything, and I wouldn't really trust your judgement and knowledge. I'm not talking about blind faith now, nothing stupid that could get you killed, but how many times have you questioned your parents as teenagers thinking you were wiser than they, or your school teachers for that matter. If I have to question my teachers all the time then they probably aren't really qualified or i'm just a really bad student. Students are always supposed to test their knowledge. Its the point of learning. A good teacher will of course answer all of your questions and they will teach you everything that they know without holding back. You should question sometimes just to comprehend better but you have to be able to trust them to learn new things that you know nothing about.

[Leonidas]

Oh great, guess i finally got my point across:D......

[Shaolindynasty]

Tai Chi is a Taoist art if you are ATTACHED to the physical technique than I think you miss the point

[Leonidas]

What are you talking about. Fighting is physical. Your missing my point. Doesn't matter what religion it supposedly came from. MA styles are all just different ways to kick someones a$$ so to speak, to defend yourself. Tai Chi just uses a special method of building striking ability. That has nothing to do with what i was referring to. I'm not missing the point because i'm not searching for something that will give me super chi powers. I know how much "Kung Fu" it takes to gain skill in fighting, especially in the unique styles included in the "Internal" category. There is nothing mystical about it. It's all proper body mechanics, alignment, all that good stuff. There are just somethings scientist haven't figured out yet. Doesn't mean its supernatural because it's Taoist. Just excercises made by ancient people with an advanced knowledge of the body and how it works. Maybe some of their theories are flawed and it'll all come together someday but everyone knows it works.............. hopefully modern people will catch up.

[Shaolindynasty]

I never really implied anything mystical about Tai Chi. What I meant is that it is very important in both the Taoist and Buddhist nature to become non attached, comming from this type of background I don't beleive religious born arts are meant to physically be held onto. The way you cling to tthe idea of keeping things original you yourself maybe without knowing it think of Kungfu of more than just kicking someones @$$. Most arts born from religious beginnings have other purposes than to kick someones @$$. Like it or not these styles DO have some sort of religious meaning to them. I know the mystesism thing has been done to death but alot of the arts are mystical(I don't really like this term but...). The bottom line is any good Buddhist or Taoist would not be crying over not learning the "original art" (most arts were created by both kinds of monks). So if you are looking for the original teachings then be non attached.;)

[Leonidas]

Maybe it depends on your intentions. I truly believe the Martial Arts being used as a path to spiritual enlightenment is a "new age idea" started by the Japanese as an excuse to practice Martial arts after their defeat in WW2. I know most ancient warriors had an underlying religious ritual done before a battle but that was a part of everyones life back then. They weren't praying to a god when cutting off someones head although they may have certainly asked for forgiveness afterwards. Some religious teachings were changed around and used as propaganda as an excuse to conquer another country. NO Martial arts style were ever born from a religion. But a person studying a certain religion can make a Martial Arts style. You fail to realize the difference and how separate they are. Most religions state you are not supposed to kill anyone but are allowed to defend yourself. Thats why their was a division in the Shaolin temple of Soldier Monks and Buddhist Monks. They all practiced Buddhism because it was a temple but most of them didn't study fighting. No disrespect but it doesn't make sense that you say a Taoist or Buddhist art is not supposed to be physically held onto. Fighting is physical. Religion deals with another form of existence which is your soul. They have nothing to do with the other. What about a Hindu art or Christian or Jewish or the dozens of other religions.

[Shaolindynasty]

Forms are kinds of moving meditation, Shaolin monks say chan has no form, that's why a martial art can be religious. I agree that maybe the religious aspect of CMA and JMA may be more emphasised right now but that is because it's what the times demand. We live in times where battlefields use guns and missles so the arts changed but..... Some (not all) styles were born from religion or the philosophy of the religion. I got off my point. MA is not seperate from Chan or the Tao since chan has no form then it can be expressed by anything, that wasn't seperate then and shouldn't be now.

"Fighting is physical. Religion deals with another form of existence which is your soul."

If you don't put your soul/spirit(shen) into your martial art then you won't have any idea what I mean. Shen is actually one of the most important parts of MA and MA training, not because some "new age" hippie said so but because it will give you more strength.

If you beleive that MA is nothing but fighting or learning to fight then why do you object to change so much?

Somebody who nows more about this can add but the japanese created the "do" arts way before WW2 didn't they?

[norther practitioner]

Isn't Bagua the physical representation of the I Ching, like the oldest Taoist book. just a comment to throw in about the whole religion-MA debate.

[Leonidas]

I do believe Martials arts can make you a better person and may help you in everyday life by giving you self control, determination, awareness, all that stuff. But it's not going to save your soul, it's not gonna even come close. If i wanted to get spiritual enlightenment i'd go to a church, temple, mosque where ever you choose to worship but not a dojo or kwoon. You didn't understand my other posts too clearly. I object to Lineage Inheritors deleting moves from the forms that they were taught. Its not respectful to their students or masters. Adding moves i dont consider as bad, as long as it doesn't confuse everything.