What's Your Delivery System?

[Water Dragon]

Taiji has Push Hands (as well as Da Lu for distance work)
Boxing has dancing footwork and the jab
BJJ uses rolling and position
Wrestling has clinch work
Judo has grip work from the defensive posture

What’s yours? How does it work? Name the art as well.

[Budokan]

I find UPS is much more cost effective and efficient than the Postal Service.

[Water Dragon]

Yup,
You the Senior Troll, Buster

:D

[Chang Style Novice]

I don't think I understand what you mean by 'delivery system.' What do the things you cite have in common; is it that they are how you set an opponent up for a 'real' attack, one that's meant to actually do damage or finish the fight?

[Water Dragon]

OK Sure, probably should have explained it better.

Boxing will use footwork to stay just out of range and then dance in with a jab. Once you lose your awareness for a split second, there goes the combo.

Taiji will stick and press into you to get you off balance (so that you are momentarily unable to fight back) Then it goes in for the kill.

Judo and wrestling both attempt to steal your balance so they can safely set up the throw.

Good BJJ’ers will rarely attempt a sub until they have gained a dominant position.

I guess the other option is to just throw out your best technique and hope for the best

So, how do you set up your techs? What's the strategy? What's the method that achieves this? How do you "deliver" your techniques?

[Chang Style Novice]

Okily dokily, that's what I thought. Trouble is, you've pretty much covered it for me already. I'd share my thoughts on my experience in free sparring and randori with the board, except I don't really have any. Any thoughts I mean. I only have a little experience, not enough to develop a personal strategy.

[JWTAYLOR]

An American Kenpo artist will, generally, attempt to intercept an incomming strike or attack in order to get to a close position and then apply checks/holds/strikes/throws in order to control the opponent's hight, width, and depth.

JWT

[scotty1]

Did you get my Email?

CLF will use feints, then attack . Using techniques to deceive the opponent and pull his concentration to one side, then blindsiding him on the other side with crushing blows!

[Water Dragon]

Oooops, I'll work on it and get it out to you. You're on the right track.

[shaolinboxer]

aikido fits your judo description very well. they are very similar in their concept of delivery

[Xebsball]

You mean sort of the principles and the fighting strategy?

Its like claw and hit and... stuff.
And other stuff i cant remember (gee I'm stoopid).
There was a page with those stuff ill go see if i find it to post it.

[EARTH DRAGON]

8 Step praying mantis has (Ba Duan)

[Dark Knight]

Intercept, trap/close/strike at the same fluid motion. Grab him and drop him afterwards.

[SanHeChuan]

i just hit anything thats open, if they punch and leave their ribs open i kick them in the ribs, if they dont have an opening i fake and then attack the opening, if they just stand there open...

[SevenStar]

I like to use my hands, elbows and knees, so I gotta get in close. I may crash on my opponent, or try to gain ground on him by sidestepping an attack. For some odd reason, I like doing throws lately :D so whenever I get my opponent off balanced either by bumping, a strike, etc. I will go for a throw. I've got a pretty nice roundhouse, which I try to utilize also to set up getting in my preferred range.


On a side note, WD, I've been using the he11 out of the steal step throw and the reap. It's difficult setting up that shoulder throw, but I'm working on it.

[EARTH DRAGON]

water dragon I am not sure people understand the question......

[Chang Style Novice]

Earth Dragon -

As near as I can tell its a metaphor. Martial arts is like a nuclear missle, and has two parts - the delivery system and the payload. The delivery system is what you use to get past defenses and within range to do your thing, and the payload is when you actually bust ass.

[Mr. Nemo]

In bagua, our delivery system was our footwork and our basic wrapping arm movement. In boxing, my delivery system is a weave and a step in rather than dancing footwork and a jab.

In baji, our delivery system seems to be punches and kicks so far. I haven't really gotten very far into the art yet....

[Braden]

I would say the 'delivery system' is to break the opponents posture and balance while strengthening my own via drilling, rising, falling, and overturning as well as sticking, leading and yielding while advancing or turning the body. Baguazhang.

Now, if only I could do it. ;p

[Water Dragon]

Braden, care to expound. I don't do bagua but have been circled by an exponent, it's fascinating. I know that the arms are doing something in conjunction with the footwork (I'm assuming this is what makes you guys "disappear") but for the life of me, I can't figure it out.

Also, any Long Fist guys out ther? I'm interested in how they set up their strikes as well.

[Water Dragon]

Rope pulley for the steal step, rock pole for the reap. I've been having good succes by driving throught he center gate. i.e. If I'm doing neck surround and will steal with my left leg, I'll drive my right foot deep into their center gate as I'm clinching them up, makes the steal step easier for me.

[crumble]

The philosophy of how I'm being taught hsing i, it's "do whatever you're doing and don't worry about what he's doing." Before someone shouts me down, that's just the attitude of it. The focus is on deflect whatever is coming at you and attack at the same time.

With waterboxing it's more a philosophy of bridging, tying up/off balancing the opponent, then killing em. More the flavor of what braden was describing.

Still a newbie though, couldn't tell you the details. :)

-crumble

[laugarboxer]

hmmmmmmmmmmmm well i don't know **** about long fist but my style is a long style (lau gar incase u hadn't guessed) and we have quite a few different delivery systems we are always encouraged to improvise with the tools we r given so, we r taught sticking hands to gain an opening with which we may strike footwork and then a snap jab (a kung fu jab however not a boxing jab) relax and tense at the end of the blow we also are told to take advantage of an opening to throw or sweep when we see the opponent of balance another useful dleivery method we use however unorthodox is it is is still very effective is to step on someones leading toe and advance with combo strikes to the head forcing the opponent to either block in which case we would sweep as they would be focusing on protecting their head or to continue striking and force them of balance so we may execute a finishing move of our choice stomp to the face or throat or sola plexus etc

[Water Dragon]

Good stuff everyone.

Crumble, when did you start working with Choi?

[neptunesfall]

hit through opponent to off balance.
let the body flow in behind the hit, usually with another hit, to further steal the opponents balance.
throw/sweep/trip/etc.

[Black Jack]

It all depends on what the enviroment will allow but my entry always has the same principles behind it.

Pain Set-Up, Forward Pressure, Finnish

I like to keep my stuff on the kiss level.

Boxing Strikes, Chin-Jab, Palm Strikes, Finger Jab, Eye Rakes, Gouges, Ripping Techs, Elbows, Knees, Headbutts, Ax-Hand, Tinger Claw, Low-Line Kicks/Stomps, Thai Roundhouse, Tacheal Crush/Eagle Claw, Hammer Fist, Forearm Smashes, Head/Neck Manipulations, Chokes, Arm Drags/Offbalancing, Standup Grappling, Basic Throws, Takedowns and Reaps.

I try to always move straight forward either in a direct line or to offset by forward angles. My ideal situation is to be very up-close and to keep the heat up so I do not cause a pressure vacuum.

The space the size of a phonebooth is a good image.

By pain I mean anything from a eye gouge, finger poke, chin-jab(is a finnishing move by itself), groin kick, thai kick, boars tooth (thumb strike) to the mastoid process, eagle claw to the throat, eyes or groin or even by reaching up and grapping their lower lip and ripping down.

After the pain I go into the close quarters range offbalance/control the attacker and to use my my heavier guns like elbows, knees, butts, gouges, street grappling skills.

If I am already in the trapping range I go right into close quater weapons.

A nice finnish would be to slam his ass into the ground and take off or do a bit of stomping if the situation was serious enough.

Lets not even bring into the fact that I would rather hit the goon with one of the many nasties I have with me before I resort to my hands.

[Braden]

WD - Unfortunately there's not much to talk about; it mostly has to be felt. Most of it has to do with basic abilities aquired through practice: internal structure (ie. from standing), maintainance of it while stepping (ie. from circlewalking), spiralling arm movements (overtly simple alterations of elbow, wrist, and shoulder angles to propagate a certain kind of internal strength into the arms and transmit it into the opponent), and powering the arm movements through shifting and also sinking momentum.

You've probably seen the effects of internal structure in your own practice. When you couple them with an attitude of constant closing, taking the outside doors with your stepping and intercepting, and wrapping up the opponents structure with the spiralling arm movements, you get a practitioner who can 'refuse' to engage you by stepping through - while smashing you around for good measure in the process, or one who can refuse the initial engagement, then latch on to you to fight from behind and/or to the side. More overtly apparent are some of the quick intercepting/closing techniques like going from squared-up to pigeon-toed beside your opponent (as if you were going for a foot drag from behind, but you fight from there - or even go for the sweep while attacking in the opposite direction with the upper body - thanks to the waist coiling from circlewalking), or the shoulder-to-shoulder facing-the-same-direction-as-your-opponent position.

Really though there's countless techniques of fading past the outside doors in bagua. Also, bagua is a very diverse style. Many practitioners won't look the way people generally percieve bagua.

I'm not very good at any of this, but this has been my impression so far. If you remember specifically what the guy did, I might be able to expand on any comparible training I've had.

[Braden]

Oh, you're absolutely right about it being in the hands as much as the feet. To my knowledge, no one can really walk circles around someone engaging them aggresively at close range. Even though this is a terribly common description of bagua (I've even heard from a surprising number of sources that bagua's strength is in walking in circles so fast your opponent gets dizzy and falls down!). It's simply so much easier for even an untrained, poorly conditioned opponent to turn slightly than it is for even a highly trained, highly conditioned practitioner (of any style) to take several steps.

[crumble]

WD: I've been with Choi for 3 months.

-crumble

[fa_jing]

My current emphasis on delivery is two quick half steps in and punch. Even if the opponent backs up on the first step, the next one usually brings me in range.

-FJ

[KC Elbows]

Breaking the opponent's structure is key with me. I do this by moving forward at angles, figuring the opponent will attack when I'm at an angle and ready to come in. Then I move in, breaking down their structure using whatever attacking appendage(s) the opponent presents me, and continue moving in and attacking until either they're down, or they present a unified front, at which point I like to pivot out of the way and continue the process. Depending on the opponent's size, I'll throw(small guys) or stay very close inside and elbow/headbutt/knee the bejeezus out of 'em.

Right now, my delivery system is definitely under construction, so this could change by quite a bit.