Some thoughts on PM origin

[mantis108]

I posted this on the main forum before. I brought this over because I am intrigued by the thought that Earth Dragon have brought up quite a few times. That is 8 Step PM was the creation of Jiang Hwau Lung (sp?) who according to Earth Dragon was a 7 Stars PM master. If Master Jiang was the same master Jiang that was list in the TJPM wooden dummy book, then he would be consider a Mui Fah rather than a 7 stars master. Anyway, I would like to hear what do you all think. Another way to look at this is like Tainan Mantis said before that Mantis was just known as mantis back in the old day. We were one big happy familiy? This is not a troll thread and PLEASE DO NOT flame anyone about their styles. Earth Dragon please do not be offended.


"I believe that are 3 major lineages that are spinned off from the founder of the Praying Mantis style.

Mui Fah (considered both Hard and Soft)
Seven Stars (considered Hard Style)
Six Harmonies (considered Soft Style)

As far as my own research goes, Mui Fah line developed form the early stages of PM by the people who were more like friends and colleagues of Wong Long. This line also has many spin off styles Mui Fah, Taiji Mei Fah, Taiji, Wah Lum, 8 Steps, 8 Extremes, etc.. to name a few. May be this was when PM was still seeking an identity. BTW, Mui Fah might also have to do with the fact that Wong Long was dedicated to overthrow the Ching (foreign oppression). So Mui Fah was sort of a friendly reminder of the course or the common goal of practicing the style (just my speculation).

Seven Stars line, however, was developed at Wong Long's retirement age. So it has more forms and a more solid structure in teaching the PM style. So may be that's why it is a "hard style" (pun intended) . Therefore less spin off (almost non) style from this line. Only today, we see something like conceptual vs traditional technical type of arguement within the style. i.e The debate on who gets the essence of the style? BTW, there is material to suggest the Taoist preist connection (some type of support to this theory of origin). Taoist preists were literate people. Perhaps that's why there are much more old manuscripts found in this styles than the others.

Six Harmonies line, I have no material to work with except that it is considered a soft style and is sometime referred as Ma Hau (horse monkey - a spiece of large monkey) Tong Long for its higher stance than the rest of the PM. Also this style seems to protect the centerline, which is a trait of internal styles, more so than the other PMs.

I tend to think that it would be helpful to compare the older versions of Kuen Po of each PM style. Quite a few of them are similar in writing styles and a few names of the moves are actually same regardless of the style. i.e the waist chop.

Just a few thoughts"

Mantis108

[EARTH DRAGON]

Dear mantis 108, I am not offended at all, but I never said he was a 7* master. I said he was 7th generation from Wong long. The art was simply called praying mantis (Tang lang Chuan) The disperment and branching stlyes came many years later.

here is a portion of our 8 step history the full version can be found on our website. Please feel free to browse, it is quite interesting.

Chiang Hua Long was the 7th generation master of the Praying Mantis system. Before him, much of this art form was shrouded in mystery. With his appearance people would again marvel at skills that had only been dreamt of. Famous for his lightning fast hands, "Ghost Hands" became a very prominent figure in Chinese history. Not only did Chiang Hua Long posses great skills as a martial artist, but he proved to be a person with the highest of morals as well. Taking from the rich to distribute to the poor, it is easy to see similarities between Chiang Hua Long and Robin Hood. Chiang Hua Long's courageous and selfless acts won him the love and admiration of the Chinese people. His mastery of the Praying Mantis system won him the respect of martial artist everywhere, and the fear of his enemies.

To uphold his responsibility as Grandmaster of the style, Chiang Hua Long could never be short sighted. The very energetic jumping style of the monkey footwork was very effective but it required a great deal of energy. Chiang Hua Long realized that if he were to live up to his obligations he would have to maintain his fighting abilities well into his old age. He would have to create a new system of footwork that would use energy efficiently but also maintain the Mantises devastating effectiveness. Changing the Mantis system was not to be taken lightly, but as Grandmaster he was responsible for strengthening any weaknesses.

Being well respected by the masters of the martial arts throughout China, Chiang Hua Long was in an advantageous position. Traveling throughout China, Chiang Hua Long met with masters of many styles. To have such a man as Chiang Hua Long ask about their techniques was a great honor. The masters of martial art's most effective systems openly shared their techniques and secrets with him. Chiang Hua Long studied the footwork of many styles such as Bagua and Tom Pei. He spent a great deal of time studying and experimenting with each movement. Having an incredible amount of experience applying his skills, Chiang Hua Long knew what would be an improvement and what would simply be change. Very carefully he considered each technique until, after ten years, he had narrowed down the most effective to eight short and eight long steps. Chiang Hua Long had taken one of the very most effective fighting systems in the world and was able to improve it. The Eight Step Praying Mantis system had been born.

[mantis108]

Thanks for the clarification, Earth Dragon. :) Sorry, if I understood you before.

Mantis108

[yingching]

Earth Dragon Stated in a earlier Post(FootWork) that 8 Step was a hybrid of 7 Star. I personally have never seen or heard of anyone doing 7Star Mantis before Fan Yuk Toung (Giant Fan), this would have been late 1800's or early 1900's.
As far as footwork goes, the monkey footwork is only part of the 7 star footwork. 7 Star footwork is extremly efficient, it is far from being limited to jumping around like a monkey.
I know very little about Mainland 7 Star, but I do know that Lo Kwan Yuk's Hong Kong 7 Star is very influenced by Eagle Claw. After all Eagle Claw, 7 Star Mantis, and Tam Tui were 3 of the original styles in the Ching Mo.

[Kravmantis]

There is a great article in the Journal of Asian Martials Arts about this that I got at the bookstore a few days ago.

[Stacey]

The fact is that Earthdragon is wrong. I asked my Sifu about it. Here is the fact.


Chiang Hua Long was a Master of Plumflower.

Find the history here, www.8step.com along with a list of authorized instructors. His name is on the "Not authorized to teach list"

The reason he thinks its 7 star is becuase Master Sun's english was bad and he was trying to explain plum flower and they jumped on it and asked if it was 7 star,he assumed they knew what he was getting at, he later recounted what he had said. but since Sifu Haley hasn't learned anything for ages and only graduated 3rd gold mantis, he wouldn't know that.

[EARTH DRAGON]

mantis108 no problem brother I may have not been clear in my wording either.

ying ching, I do believe that 8 step is a hybrid of 7* and I do think that 8 steps footwork is more effcient than that of 7* that doesnt mean that everyone has to think so but from the masters that I have talked to they also believe that 8 step has superior foot work over all the prayingmantis styles.including Braden Lai 7* master and Adam Hsutoo masters of which I met while living in china town San Fran. Thats why is was invented in the first place.
Chiang Hua Long studied the footwork of many styles such as Bagua and Tom Pei. He spent a great deal of time studying and experimenting with each movement. Having an incredible amount of experience applying his skills, Chiang Hua Long knew what would be an improvement and what would simply be change. Very carefully he considered each technique until, after ten years, he had narrowed down the most effective to eight short and eight long steps. Chiang Hua Long had taken one of the very most effective fighting systems in the world and was able to improve it.
the word improve means that it has gotten better, not just different but better. I dont want to get into my style your stlye thing but you have to admitt why take 10 years to improve on something if it is not the best. if it aint broke..............after all most martial arts have had things improved within their styles other wise their would be no brances other than family members. and we would still be doing the 18 lohan excersises.

[yingching]

I find it interesting the Brandan Lai (One of Wong Hun Funn's best fighters) would say that another style is superior to his?
Also Earth Dragon, if you would. Since you are familiar with 7 Star and Eight Step, perhaps you could cover the stepping patterns of both systems, and point out exactly what you feel 7 Star Footwork is lacking. Rather than just stating that Eight Step is better.
Also, when were the systems tried against each other? In order to say that an improvement was made, there would have to be a before and after.
It is also very interesting that there is some uncertainty as to where 8 Step actually evolved from. If in fact in did evolve from 7 Star, it must have come from MainLand 7 Star not HK 7 Star. HK 7 Star only came about around 80 years ago, and from what I have seen has quite a bit different footwork.
Does 8 Step have the 12 character principles from Josi Wong Long?

[Robbie]

yingching,
no uncertainty, 8step from plumflower.

[Tainan Mantis]

Mantis 108,
Have you read Heroes of the Marsh?
If I remember correctly Lin Chong of wang Lang's 18 families #14 is in this book using his mandarin duck kick to win a fight.
I went to find which chapter(haven't found it yet) and the preface said the people in the novel are from historical figures in some cases.

[Oso]

Tainan Mantis or mantis108 (or anyone else)

sort of off topic but could anyone tell me if there is an edition of the Water Margin available in the states. A search at Amazon didn't produce much.

thanks a lot,

Matt

[Tainan Mantis]

Is the title of my version. Translated by Pearl S. Buck.
I haven't read others, but this one does a good job of having the feel of Chinese culture to it.

[sean_stonehart]

There's a distributor in Houston that carries the Water Margin, but I don't remember the name of the guy or the company. I've seen his name & company on the net. I found him on either Budoseek's search engine or from Google. I don't remember which. Sorry I don't have more.

Happy reading! :D

[Oso]

Pearl S. Buck is a bit of a surprise.

thank you both

Matt

[mantis108]

Hi Tainan Mantis,

I think the novel you mentioned was written in Ming Dynasty (?). It tells of the tales of the 108 "heroes" (sort of Chinese Robin Hoods).

Lum Chung also romantize as Lam Chong, Lin Chong was one of the main characters. In fact, the story follows his adventure from the beginning. He was the Chief instructor to the Song Emperor's personal guard which was 800,000 troopes strong. That was way out of the standard and it needed high taxes to support. So unfair taxes was more or less the main cause for every in the book. He begrudged the prime minister and was casted off to outposts. On the way there he escaped and eventually joined the "heroes". His weapon (I think you'll love this one, Tainan) was the spear. I don't quit remember the whole thing so I will have to look up where he used his skill.

Ying Ching is also another character that is in the novel AND is listed side by side with Lum Chung in the poem. This is why , IMHO, the poem is rather suspect.


To look at the kick:

here are the four versions that I have

Version 1:

#12 The technique of Sticking, Grabbing and Falling "Zhan Na Dei Fa" of master Yan Qing,

#13 The strongest legs kicking technique of Mandarin Ducks "Yaun Yan Jiao" by master Lin Chong.


Version 2:

#12 Gim La Dit Fait technique by Ying Ching

#13 Ying Yang Guet technique by Lum Chong

Version 3:

#13 The Grabbing, Throwing techniques of Ian Ching

#14 The Mandarin Duck Kick of Yen Ching is Great

Version 4

#13 Fan Chi (Fahn Chea) Kuen of Ying Ching (Yin Cheng)
Ying Ching was a famous top figther of his time, especially feared for his unique (Broad) sword art. (RE: Ying Ching Dann Do)

#14 Tam Toi Kuen of Lam Chung (Jumping Leg Fist/Style)
Breathing technique and design makes it look like Karate, in some ways Straight lined, high strength method.

As we can see it is indeed about a powerful kick called mandarin duck kick. The question though - is it Muslim in origin since Tam Toi (Tam Tui) is a Muslim art? Was Muslim art hot in Song dynasty? Is this another fabrication? These questions have to be answered to prove the authenticty of the poem. Also it is prudent to exam all the origin of the style mentioned in the poem. It would seem that they are all Song dynasty period style and people (ie. Taijo, Hong Tung, Ying Ching, Lum Chung, etc...) except Wong Long was an uncertainty.

I believe the poem leads to the believe that Mantis was originated in Shaolin temple among the other styles and that Wong Long could have been lived in the Song Dynasty not the Ming Dynasty. So in some mantis lineages (mainly 7 stars one) it has missing generations. This is to reflect the time period that Wong Long was supposedly lived in. Personally, I don't buy that at all. I think that most of the history of the lineages (Mui Fah and 7 stars) are more or less pointing towards Late Ming and early Ching. There is also the pargonda in "wong long/mantis" temple in Lao Shan, China to support the Ming/Ching period rather than the Song.

The charade of PM, goes on...

Mantis108

PS I hate openning cans of worms. :(

[EARTH DRAGON]

Do we really have to go over this again? I talked to your sifu and YOU ARE NOT EVEN A REGULAR STUDENT. So I respect nothing that you say and frankly dont care either. the history is the same on my site that it is on master shyun's. How do I know? I wrote it in english and sent it to steeve creel the webiste desinger in 1995 before you were even a student in 8 step NEWBIE. so please its better to keep your mouth shut and hid your ignorance from others then open your mouth and prove it to everyone! you only make your self look foolish! So I think it's funny that in 11 years in the federation and one of the 10 original 6th generation sifu's in the federation I wouldnt know the history of our system. doesnt that sound a little stupid when you make such a comment. I have forgotten more about 8 step then you have learned...... tell me how much have you paid for your knowledge so far? ha ha ha

yingching I said that the footwork is better. you wanted the foot work of our system well here it is.
BA TUN BU ( 8 LONG STEPS )
BABU – ( LONG LEAPING STEP ) FLYING FOOTWORK
CHUANG BU – ( LONG STEP ) AT AN ANGLE
DAI BU - ( CROSS STEP ) SIDEWAYS
RU WAN BU – ( FAKE STEP ) IN ONE DIRECTION MOVE ANOTHER
NOU BU – ( CIRCULAR STEP ) SIDEWAYS CIRCULAR FAKING MOTION
CUAN TA BU – ( JUMPING DODGING STEP ) EVADING A PUNCH
XIN BU – ( RETREATING STEP ) ZIG ZAG SKIP BACKWARD
TUO BU – ( FORWARD STEP ) FOLLOW WITH SAME FOOT STEP

BA CHING BU ( 8 SHORT STEPS )
HEN YE BU – ( SIDE STEP ) DEFENSIVE STEP TO AVOID A PUNCH
SU JIAO BU – ( TRIANGLE STEP ) 3 PART FORWARD STEP MOTION
FANG XING BU –( SQUARE STEP ) DODGING FORWARD &BACKWARD
MEI HUA BU – ( FIVE CORNER STEP ) STEP AROUND OPPONENT
LIU XING BU – (TWO TRIANGLE STEP) POINTED OPPOSITE DIRECTION
QI XING BU – ( 7 STAR STEP ) FORWARD TRIANGLE
ZOU ZHAN BU – ( 3 STEP ) FOLLOW FOOT 3 STEP FORWARD & BACK
BA GUA BU – ( 8 CHANGING STEP) TURNING IN A CIRCULAR FASHION
ying ching If you need to I can list the 12 principles too but i dont think it is neccessary becuse they are the same

STACY, I guess I am not a sifu according to you but geez I wonder why I know these and you dont! havent you paid for them yet? ha ha ha hhhhmmmmmm

[Young Mantis]

Mantis108, Tainan Mantis,

I have been following your discussion about the characters of "The Water Margin" and their correlation to the PM origins poem. It seems to me that you both try to use these documents as historical record and have problems placing everyone into the same time period.

I do not believe either one is saying that all the characters were contemporaries. In regards to "Water Margin", I believe this epic novel was semi-fictitious. Many if not all the characters were real people but not necessarily all living at the same time. But the author, wrote a story that intertwined the lives of 108 heroes of our Chinese history and culture. So although in the novel, Lum Chung and Yin Ching may have fought on the same battle field, in actual history that may not have been the case. They were not all Song dynasty people.

In regards to the poem, although these 18 men are accredited to making up the different elements of the Praying Mantis style, I do not believe that it tries to say they were all contemporaries of each other. I believe the poem commemorates the famous techniques of 17 heroes in Chinese history and credits founder Wong Long as having selected these 17 as the most effective and prolific at his time and combined them with his Mantis techniques. I have never tried to place Wong Long in the Song dynasty as a contemporary of Yin Ching since I have been taught that Wong Long was living in the Ming Dynasty.

I have seen other discussions such as this where people have tried using these as historical record and could not chronologically fit everyone together. I do not believe these are credible sources of history. This is just my opinion and I am certainly not in any means well educated in Chinese literature or history.

Sincerely,

YM

[mantis7]

Does paying or knowledge eqaul to the assertation of skil... I dont think so. Being certified by a known teacher make you a Teacher. NO atany given time a student can fall out fo grace from a teacher be it from wanting to do there own school and sanding n there own merit. To becoming more popular than there sifu and the sifu not liking i. Or even if the student some hows disrespects the sifu. They seperate but thestudetn still has eh knowledge and the skill but not the sifu's permission.

Being a teacher is being a person who passes on knowledge ( hopefully Valid) on to a stident or disciple in hopes of the information to be desminated to others.

A pece o paper is not needed to display teaching credentals. How well you teach will be self evvident when your students act, train, respct others, as well as fight and teach.

Back in the days I doubt other CMA sifu's worried about paper work they were more worried about the skill they had and beingable to physically holding the name and there sifu up high on their shoulders.

LOL that i why the old days of challenge matches should come back and the advent of NHB should burn up all the paper tigers and HIstorians ( there is nuthing wrng ith them as long as tehy can put up and show they can do more than just recite text)


well thats all for me as before my keyboard burns up from this tiraid....


Vince Night ( victor from da bronx)

[mantis108]

Young Mantis,

Thanks for the input. I am glad that such topic has been explore before. I do realize that the people on the poem might have been lived in different time period and possiblely fictional. That is not unheard of in Chinese literatures. But at the same time the poem has been used as a reference since it came from the Praying Mantis Boxing Manual (Tanglangquan Pu) , which according to Ilya Profatilov site is a significant prove that Wong Long lived arround Song Dynasty time. I might have misunderstood the article on his site, so correct me if I am wrong. However, as the article pointed out that the manual was recorded late 1700s (decades after Wong Long 1609-1702 if he ever existed during that time) . That's the reason that I am puzzled about the claim the Wong Long would be a Song dynasty person based on the information (poem) in the quan pu. The Pu was clearly much later that Wong even if he was a Ming dynasty man. As I have said before, what if the poem in the quan pu was a praise/compliment type of work to booster the image of TLQ? Because of the poor documention system in any matter in China, it is hard to put together a timeline and events. But work must be done somehow, otherwise we will always be living in a Mantis world that is of creationism but not evolution. Personally, I perfer evolution. Lately, I am more and more convinced that PM is of deliberate thoughts and real hardwork not totally sudden enlightment. Many of the concepts in PM seems to have existed predating Wong Long. He might just have reworked and repackage them. To use a more recent phenonemon - It was more or less the JKD of late Ming and early Ching dynasties. But then not many people are willing to question what they are told. So... Thanks for sharing.


Mantis108


PS I also realize that the Lin Chong in the poem might not be the same fictional character of the novel but for the sake of exploring ... "Some men see things as they are and say why, I dream things that never were and say why not." :D

[yingching]

ED,
You said it is better, so it must be better. That is real convincing. That was not my question. Perhaps you should re-read the question...

[EARTH DRAGON]

I think you are taking what I say way out of text. It is my experience and my understanding and my opinon that 8 step has more effecient foot work than that of 7 *. This is also the same opinon of other people,not all people but others. And yes braden Lai said that 8 step footwork is better than 7 *I met him on several occasions and we talked about the similarites and differences of matis one of the things that was brought up was the use of the ba gua footwork which he replied that it made more sense. I lived 10 minutes from his school and 20 minutes from his store in the mission distric In San Fran . I am not saying that your system is not as good as 8 step we are talking about footwork only, and it is nothing personal but by your posts I feel as though thats how you are taking what I say. I do not wish to start or participate in a my style your style fight. But I am intiltled to my opinon. you dont have to agree becuse according to you my opinon is wrong.

I was talking to a guy that said tae kwon do was the ultimate martial art. although I do not agree, whats to say that he is wrong? I think that once you devote your time into somthing you want to feel that it is the best to justify your time spent and that nothing should come along to make you feel any differnt. Like buying a car and your next door neighbor got the same one a week later and got leather interioir for the same price. So its not about who's better or whats better its about what is best for you, and in the end thats all that matters. You cant please eveyone so its much easier to please yourself. and if you like what you do then keep on doing it! your freind E.D merry x-mas to you and your family......

[Tainan Mantis]

Mantis 108.
I believe the person you mentioned when talking about the story is Wang Ching. He fell afoul of Gao Chiu near the beginning of the story. He is the first hero.
I remeber a fellow who won a fight with his special kick. I'm looking for that chapter now.
The story started to develop in the early Yuan dynasty and talks about the Song.


Young Mantis,
I have agreed with what you wrote before you wrote it. I think that people from different dynasties are listed together.
I'll bring more to KFO after Lin Chong and Yen Ching are resolved.
I believe there are several other people who can be accounted for in the 18

[Stacey]

ED I'm sorry, this was an old post. For more information on the topic of 8 step footwork, you can look at this old article by Jane Hallander.


http://www.blackbeltmag.com/archives/kki/1986/oct86/deceptivefoot/deceptivefoot.html

[yingching]

Earth Dragon,
Please don't take my question out of context, I am really interested in the comparison aspect. I Have seen very little 8 Step, as I stated on an earlier post. The article that Stacey put up was interesting as well. It stated clearly that 8 Step came from 7 Star.:confused: This seems to be very debated on different post...
Anyway, The breakdown of stances is interesting, Perhaps someday I can make it to Buffalo and get a visual comparison.
Ying Ching

[Tainan Mantis]

Mantis108,
He starts in chapter 6. He also falls afoul of Gao Chiuo and his adopted son.

But it ooks like he isn't the guy I thought of with the special kicks.

[mantis108]

Ah...I hear you, my friend. :)

Mantis108

[Tainan Mantis]

I rememberd incorrectly.
In Wang Lang's 18 families it is mandarin duck kick of Ling Chong.
In All Men Are Brothers it is of Wu Song.
Last Page of Ch 28.

Wu Song went to fight an evil giant named Chiang...

"Now it has been said before that the fashion in which Wu Song beat Chiang The Gate God was first to make as if he would beat him in the face with his two fists and then he turned and sent out his flying left foot and when he had kicked Chiang with this he turned again and with his flying right foot he kicked him. This fashion of fighting has a name and it is called The Jade Circle Step, and the Feet Following Each Other Like Mandarin Ducks. This feint was the fruit of Wu Song's whole life and sign of his true skill and it was no common feint."

I can find no other reference to Ling Chong as of yet all though some should surely exist.