bagua training

[baby dragon]

I'm a Hung Gar practitioner but love all styles of Kung Fu. I'm very much interested in Tai Chi and especially Ba Gua. I would never think of leaving my Hung Gar right now and was wondering if anyone had any tips on what I could do to incorporate and just plain learn some Ba Gua concepts into my Hung Gar. One thing I'm intrigued by and would love to learn and practice is the circle walking. I love to practice and just want to be able to practice this. Thanks.

[taijiquan_student]

I don't do Bagua, but just a question: Why do you want to add bagua practices into your hung gar?

[baby dragon]

It's not so much that I'm looking for incorporation, but that I want to learn all I can about the arts that I'm interested in. I'm all about the mastery of an art which is why I wouldn't leave Hung Gar right now, but kind of have a Jeet Kun Do aspect in that I want to learn other arts as well. While I'm interested in northern arts and any other kung fu to an extent, I'm really pointing my interests toward the internal arts as well as the southern style of Hung Gar.

[EARTH DRAGON]

If I may I would suggest learning Tai Chi Chuan instead of Ba Gua Zhang. Tai Chi can have a complementing effect on your hung gar but not so much with ba gua.While hung gar is mostly a hard style you will find that Tai chi to be a soothing soft side to aid in your learning.
I would think that ba gua would not have the same effect or the same outcome when mixing it with another style. but he choice is obviously yours.

[Chris McKinley]

Earth Dragon, you seem to have a very watered-down view of what the art of Taijiquan is in combat from that last post. Then again, perhaps I'm just reading into your statement. Real Taijiquan as used in fighting doesn't look much like the stereotype of a bunch of old people in silk pajamas moving in slow motion in the park. It's also not particularly soothing to the guy on the receiving end. Would you mind clarifying a little bit here for me? BTW, no offense is intended as I respect you as a fellow martial artist. I would also be curious about why you would suggest that Taiji would blend better than Baguazhang with Hung Gar. Personally, I don't think either of them would be appropriate in this context, but I am interested in reading your reasons. Thanks.

[brassmonkey]

"you seem to have a very watered-down view"

Dr. McKinley ooppps forgot you only called yourself a TCM Doctor when you only learned from books and received no accretidation, so Chris maybe if you practiced TCC then you could think of commenting on what other people do.

[baby dragon]

Thanks to all of your posts. Keep it up. I really appreciate it. But once again, I'm not looking for the mixing of the arts, just another art to learn. My Sigung is a master of Hung Gar, Tai Chi, knows some Ba Gua, (don't think he knows Monkey styles), and chinese wrestling. This too is what I want (not exactly, but you know what I mean). I don't want to leave my Sifu's school and couldn't ask my Sigung to train me at the same time so this is why I want to pick up on some things before I do go to him or some place else for training. My Sigung's name is Sifu Abu Saleem, of the lineage of Lam Tsai Wing (trained under Wong Fei Hung) and Tang Fung. I'm mentioning this to see if y'all might know my Sigung and to see what branch I'm coming under with my Hung Gar. This is my history but like my Sigung, I want to learn more.
Hung Gar is pretty much a hard style but still has soft concepts in it along the way. Even switching from Tiger mentality to crane is a type of hard-soft switch and our hard soft mentality goes deeper than that. My point is that I'm just trying to learn more. And whether I'm practicing a BaGua technique or a Tai Chi technique or practice, I'm sure it'll help my kung fu in either dimension because my basis for the training is for the discipline and training of my body and being mindful of the concepts, my mind.
Keep giving me feedback. Thanks.

[taijiquan_student]

I would actually say that going deeper into your hung gar would be better for your gongfu than learning a new system of strategy and body usage, but that's just my personal view.

[EARTH DRAGON]

Thank you for being respectful in your rebuttle.

when I gave my suggestion of learning tai Chi rather than ba gua you reponded........

Earth Dragon, you seem to have a very watered-down view of what the art of Taijiquan is in combat from that last post. Then again, perhaps I'm just reading into your statement. Real Taijiquan as used in fighting doesn't look much like the stereotype of a bunch of old people in silk pajamas moving in slow motion in the park.

Allow me to explain myself clearly. I do have a very good idea of the art of tai chi chuan is. I have been doing Wu style tai chi chuan for 11 years, "including the fighting applications" and I have hosted national taiwanese tui sao tournaments here in the US. I was taught by grand master shyun kwan long and I am a direct lineage from my teacher's teacher who was Wu Jian Quan(1870-1942) the founders grand son of Wu stlye tai chi Wu chan Ho. when I was suggesting to baby dragon that he should learn tai chi I was simply implying that it would complement his southern hung gar more so than ba gua.

I did not mean to imply that he joint the senior citizens group and play it for excersice. However I teach 8 step praying mantis and when I teach my students tai chi they feel as though it complemments their praying mantis. either when playing the health set or the low fighting set the end result is the same, it compliments the softer side of any hard martial art. to have yang you must have yin.
I hope I didnt come across to harsh but it is hard to tell ones experience simply from a single post. I invite you to browse my website and veiw the masters section under photos. there are some pics of the chinese national tai chi team from the R.O.C and master Lin Muo Hou. your freind E.D

[baby dragon]

Dang Earth Dragon!!!!!!!!!
You're a bad man aren't you?!!:eek: :cool:
I'm not trying to make it seem like you came across harsh because you were also respectful in your reply. That's pretty awesome though. I look forward to having some of my future questions being answered by you (and my other kung fu brothers :)
Anyways...
Just to let some of y'all know, I talked with my Sifu today and invited me to talk to my Sigung about that Ba Gua. Pretty cool. Eventually I'll get my tai chi in there but keep on giving me tips on things that I can practice to better my kung fu. Thanks.

[Nexus]

I am going to have to second Earth Dragon's words in that Tai Chi will definetely compliment your current practices more than Bagua. Not to offend any bagua practioners, but from my time learning the styles, Bagua certainly deserves a direct focus on the art itself if you are going to take anything serious from it. Tai chi would be an excellent foundation for learnin both though, and is usualy what the majority of practioners to diverge into the other internal styles start out doing.

Earth Dragon pretty much said it though already.

- Nexus

[baby dragon]

I feel what you're saying "Tai" Student about stickin' to my Hung Gar, but at the same time I don't see harm in looking at other styles. Or, at least training with some of their drills. I hear your argument quite clear but I want to see if I'm interested in pursuing the other syles as well, whick I think I will.

[baby dragon]

By the last comment I'm starting to realize why you all are recommending Tai Chi.
This is my mentality. When sparring another practitioner we emphasize being able to change from one animal (mentality) to another. To have flow and to be versatile. If your opponent is hard, we teach the other to be soft, when you opponent is soft, you be hard. You can do this by simple physicality even within the same animal, or by switching to a different animal with softer characteristics if your opponent is hard. Along with this, I'm all about, for example, using a tai chi mentality or body movements against a hard opponent at a certain time, or using circular attacking on an opponent to confuse him, then integrate something else. Do you know what I mean?? I do this already between animals and even with some tai chi I've already picked up in one way or another. This is what I'm all about. When focusing on my style, I do my forms and form techniques from them, and continue to grow in that, but want to enhance myself in all these other ways as well. Do you know what I mean?? That's what I'm all about. Learning as much as I can from the styles that interest me.
Later y'all, keep givin' that info up for me.

[RAF]

Baby Dragon:

Calvin Chin has a website and is located in MA. I don't really know him personally but his background seems very strong and he practices both Hung Gar and Wu style taijiquan.

Why don't you post him and ask about how he works both systems?

Unfortunately I don't have his website on hand.

[EARTH DRAGON]

No baby dragon I am not a "bad man" as you say just a person with some years under my sash. I do not in any way want to imply that I am better than anyone for my 20 years in the martial arts has only recently began to show that I have learned just a little compared to the great people that I have met in the martial arts. I enjoy teching and helping other people by sharing my experience, and if that helps them then I feel like I have given back to the sharing of knowledge that people have shared with me. I enjoy teching so much that I have sacraficed material things in my life in order to open and run my own school. heaven knows you can make money by running a school, but when it comes to real teaching I perfer to reap the rewards from my students smiles and not their pocket books.

[baby dragon]

Wow, thanks RAF!! This is almost like my current school and my Sigung's school except like you said, he really incorporates the two. My Sigung teaches Tai Chi and has mastered Hung Gar and like I said, if he decides to let some Hung Gar out he does, if Tai Chi, he does. I typed Calvin Chin into the yahoo search engine and I picked the first link. There are more about him and I'll check those out later. Thank you again!!

http://www.calvinchin.com/

[RAF]

Baby Dragon:

My pleasure. Good luck in your search.

[Chris McKinley]

Earth Dragon, glad to be wrong about that. It seems I was simply reading too much into a single post. My apologies and my thanks for patiently clarifying your position for me.

brass monkey...hmm, while I've readily explained my position on Traditional Chinese Medicine AND that I make no claim to accreditation, I would suggest that you visit any of the larger cities in the U.S. and pay a visit to the local Chinatown there. I suggest you will find that very few of the most knowledgeable practitioners of TCM in this country hold any sort of accreditation from an American institution or indeed from any institution whatsoever. Am I thereby putting myself into the topmost category by that statement? Not at all. As I have also stated elsewhere, I do not practice the herbal aspect of TCM here in my state because I find my knowledge to be insufficient in that area. I do so, I might add, of my own accord even though I am not required to legally, since herbalism is not recognized, liscenced, nor regulated here. It is simply an ethical matter.

As for your suggestion that I practice Taijiquan, I took that suggestion starting in 1982. If you are unable or unwilling to communicate in a respectful and/or educated manner, do us a favor and let us know now. Your past record on this forum suggests neither, but perhaps you may have changed your mind.

[brassmonkey]

"brass monkey...hmm, while I've readily explained my position on Traditional Chinese Medicine AND that I make no claim to accreditation"

I don't think you've been upfront as you seem to indicate. For a long time you claimed to be a Doctor of TCM until someone called you out on it. Kind of like how every 6 months the name of your teacher of Baguazhang changes.

"I would suggest that you visit any of the larger cities in the U.S. and pay a visit to the local Chinatown there. I suggest you will find that very few of the most knowledgeable practitioners of TCM in this country hold any sort of accreditation from an American institution or indeed from any institution whatsoever."

This may be true, I'm sure the good Doctors didnt learn from solely a book though. Why hold your standards to the lowest of skill?

" Am I thereby putting myself into the topmost category by that statement? Not at all. As I have also stated elsewhere, I do not practice the herbal aspect of TCM here in my state because I find my knowledge to be insufficient in that area. I do so, I might add, of my own accord even though I am not required to legally, since herbalism is not recognized, liscenced, nor regulated here. It is simply an ethical matter."

Selective ethics I see. A good liar doesnt lie all the time.

"As for your suggestion that I practice Taijiquan, I took that suggestion starting in 1982."

Are you sure?

" If you are unable or unwilling to communicate in a respectful and/or educated manner, do us a favor and let us know now. Your past record on this forum suggests neither, but perhaps you may have changed your mind"

Is it disrespectful for me to question alot of ridiculous statements I hear coming from the senior Montaigue students and yet receive no answers only more questions. I dont think your camp has been very respectful of TCC practioneers so I don't feel so bad expressing my opinions either, please correct me wherever I am wrong. My opinion of what you all do is very clear if your happy doing what you do great, I just don't think its TCC as others feel as well. But my opinion doesnt mean anything, I have little skill and am a nobody but all that I've encountered that know TCC to a better level then I say the same thing, I just present these msgs for others to see like I once did with Shaolin-Do which I no longer need to repeat others do. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm right and what you do is better then what I think is TCC so all the better makes Montaigue even more the innovator! **** I try to stay away from posting on this board but it just draws me in.

[dedalus]

Ah, the old authenticity debate :rolleyes:. Some threads never die.

Baby Dragon, I wanted to voice some support for your wish to learn circle walking. I think pretty much anyone can benefit from that particular exercise, and the others ought to remember that it was originally taught by Dong Haichuan as a high level training method for accomplished fighters. Circle walking is much more dynamic than you might guess from casual observation - there's a lot going on in the practise, and if one approaches it with the desire to explore it can become surprisingly deep. You might think of it as something you develop rather than something you learn once and repeat unchanged. I definitely think you should pursue this because you have the desire to do so, and your expectations and attitude are realistic. Over time you might add intricacies and follow this practise deeper, which might even be closer to the true bagua legacy than many of us are following in our own training ;) If nothing else, your back and footwork will benefit from this exercise. Just make sure you find someone who can teach you in person. I think it's really important to have the basics imparted in this way :) Good luck!

[Chris McKinley]

brass monkey, RE: "I don't think you've been upfront as you seem to indicate. For a long time you claimed to be a Doctor of TCM until someone called you out on it.". Then you haven't been paying attention. I've never once claimed accreditation. I have and still do casually refer to myself as a TCM doc, since where I live, there ARE no legally recognized (by the State of Oklahoma) Doctors of Traditional Chinese Medicine. Even the few with out-of-state accreditation who can legitimately claim the formal title are not legally recognized as such here. That's the real shame of it. As far as someone "calling me out" on it, I gave exactly the same response to that person who also hadn't been paying attention.

RE: "Kind of like how every 6 months the name of your teacher of Baguazhang changes.". Puzzling. I'm assuming you're confused, since I have claimed and presently claim the very same teachers and influences every time. My primary teacher was Li Xian. I have also learned or been influenced by Zhang Hong Xiao, Dr. John Painter, and Erle Montaigue, in no particular order. That's the same group I've always mentioned, so I'm hoping that clears it up for you.

RE: "This may be true, I'm sure the good Doctors didnt learn from solely a book though. Why hold your standards to the lowest of skill?". And neither did I. Though, as I have mentioned before, there are no accrediting entities within my state, so all knowledge must be through in-person instruction or from the literature. I would be quite pleased if the situation changes but until then, I have to make do with what is or has been available to me.

RE: "Are you sure?". Yes.

RE: "Is it disrespectful for me to question alot of ridiculous statements I hear coming from the senior Montaigue students and yet receive no answers only more questions. I dont think your camp has been very respectful of TCC practioneers so I don't feel so bad expressing my opinions either, please correct me wherever I am wrong.". I would be happy to. As for senior Montaigue students, I cannot answer for them, not being one of them. "My camp" isn't accurate here, since I am not affiliated with Erle Montaigue or his organization. I have consistently defended Mr. Montaigue publicly and will continue to do so under present circumstances. If you have experienced frustration with getting some of your questions answered from WTBA representatives, you have my sympathies. While I've personally found them to be generous with information, perhaps you have not. Is there a particular question you'd like answered? Maybe I could try and get some information for you. Best I can offer.

RE: "My opinion of what you all do is very clear if your happy doing what you do great, I just don't think its TCC as others feel as well.". Assuming you are still referring to Erle Montaigue's particular take on Taiji rather than mine specifically, I can't argue. Not that I necessarily agree, it's just that you of course have a right to your opinion. I understand, since I have levied similar criticism at the vast majority in the U.S. practicing YCF/CMC Taiji. By far, the great majority of them can't fight, IMO. Not all of them, to be sure, but such an overwhelming percentage that I find myself unable to call what they are doing Taijiquan. Yet, like you say, if they are happy doing it, more power to 'em. It's their time to spend, after all.

Bottom line: I think you have erroneously "lumped" me in as one of Erle Montaigue's WTBA instructors. Now, while this is not the case, I have made my support for Mr. Montaigue's efforts very clearly and consistently. Apparently well enough that I am mistaken for one of his guys. Not that such a distinction would be anything but a plus in my book, but the fact is that I'm not affiliated with the WTBA. Hopefully, I've managed to clear that up for you. However, as I mentioned, if there's anything I can do to get a question answered for you regarding Erle or his methods, I'll be happy to try. Erle is definitely controversial; I don't think there's any getting away from that. But I don't think that means that legitimate questions can't be asked, nor that those questions can't be answered in a respectful way. At the end of the day, it's OK to disagree. Personally, I don't think ANY side of the controversies has a complete monopoly on the truth.

[brassmonkey]

Thanks for the reply Chris, I'm starting to think I'm trying too hard and wasting my time anyways but if you can get answers to questions perhaps my most recent thread you could help with and I'll let all this die:

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=7447

[baby dragon]

I really appreciate your post dedalus!! This is one of the few that heard my heart on what I was talking about and asking. I am very much encouraged by your encouragement and your advice. I've seen your posts in other rooms and have always been helped by them and excited to hear from you. Thank you again.

[dedalus]

Thanks :D. Let us know how it goes.

[maoshan]

Peace All,

Baby Dragon

I also, feel, that you should follow your hearts desire.
I have a very close friend who is a senior in the Tung Fung lineage
Who is also very interested in Ba-Gua and has been learning from me for a few months now. This guy has years in his system, and his whole purpose is at this point is exploring the internal aspects of his style. He can’t help but make comparisons and at this point he has found many similarities in some of the training aspects as well as applications.
Because of my experience in a few styles of Ba-Gua, I’ve been able to show him a variety of approaches by which he can find those similarities.
Yes, Tai Chi will allow you to relax, but so will Ba-Gua if you train properly and with out a doubt improve your footwork and understanding of the circular movements in your form.
Tai Chi above Ba-Gua? I think not. It’s a matter of choice.

Peace
Maoshan

[baby dragon]

Cool!!!
Right now I'm pretty amazed to hear of someone else from the Tang Fung lineage. There's probably a lot but I just haven't met many outside of my school. Awesome!!
That's cool to hear he's all about some Bagua too. Haven't been able to meet up with my Sigung about the Bagua but it'll happen soon, I can't contain myself :)
I think I'll end up getting some Tai Chi too but want the Bagua as well. Later on in my Hung Gar we end up going to Tai Chi as well. This probably happens because my Sigung sets it up this way.
Good stuff.
Thanks