Why wing chun dosn't work

[CanadianBadAss]

the other thread is blank when i open it... So tell me, why dosn't wing chun work?

[Wingman]

Who says it doesn't? Wing chun has withstood the test of time. It must be effective otherwise it is extinct by now.

[CanadianBadAss]

hey wing man, I already know wing chun works, I just wanna know y this guy(or any one else) thinks it dosn't.

[straight blast]

I think the reason that the other thread didn't come up is because it was a troll thread, and it got closed. All I got when I tried to look it up was a message saying something about the thread being closed. Maybe that's what the new forum does with closed threads.
As to why Wing Chun doesn't work:

(1) They were doing it wrong
(2) They tried to use Chi Sau as a fighting tecnique
(3) They just got thrashed by a Wing Chunner & are in a bad mood
(4) They learnt McChun and it gave them the expected results
(5) Because they suck
(6) They didn't train hard enough

Those would be my reasons.

[Sihing73]

Hello,

For what it's worth the other thread was closed and the original poster was "Ralek". For some reason the individual posts could be deleted but the topic stuck around. So, it was closed. Considering Ralek and his reasons for posting things, "TROLL" I figured it better to just close it.

Peace,

Dave

[rubthebuddha]

maybe if someone other than a renob like ralek or ralek. started a thread called "the effectiveness of wing chun," this might work. maybe we should get an unbiased person like zinjen from the .hk forum.

[jesper]

Now you have spoiled the fun.

i thought it was a joke like the book called "Reasons why women are the best drivers" :)

For those of you who havent read it, its blank inside :)

[Sihing73]

Hello,

Had you read the original post I doubt you owuld have agreed with either its tone or anything it stated, but I could be wrong.

Basically what the post stated was that Wing Chun sucked and was always beaten in NHB type of events. I think you get the gist.

Peace,

Dave

[sanchezero]

Does wing chun consistently get splattered in NHB/MMA events?

I don't really follow those things, just some clips on the internet between the bignames. I did see one WCGuy from Va Beach get slaughtered in a NHB(?) event a few years ago. But it didn't look like he did wing chun - more like kickboxing. He tapped in 30 sec or so I think...

:)

[red5angel]

This has come up a few times, and here i smy theory on why WC does not win in tourneys like this:

There are rules.

These keep the participants safe from serious harm or even death. They are necessary to a sport. WC is not a sport but a martial art, and inherently has things that do not follow the rules to keep people safe, except for the practitioner or those he may be defending.
If you notice, grapplers seem to dominate those contest...well because thier sport is designed fo rit, they have taken thier martial art and turned it into something that can be used safely. A lot of them consider themselves exceptional for being able to take a hit, come to grapple with an opponent and hold on. Frankly, who cars if you can take a shot to the chin, or the chest, how about a nice pak to the elbow? What happens when a grappler cannot use his arms to grapple any longer? In the street it comes down to the ability of the fighter, not the ability to manipulate a system to survive inside of the rules, on the street there are no rules.

On top of this is seems a lot of times these guys who practice a martial art light WC, and get into a tourney, probably haven't studied it enough, even to understand this.

[Marshdrifter]

That may have something to do with it, but I think a lot of it has
to do with the whole relaxed thing. It's very hard to stay relaxed
in situation where there are a lot of spectators and lights and
cameras and a cash prize, etc. Not to mention that you pretty
much just sit around and wait for your turn.


Anxiety...





builds...






and...





tension...



grows.

It would theoretically be possible to remain relaxed and be able
to perform, but it can't be easy.

Relaxation is key.

Beyond that, I'd have to agree with straight blast.

[sanchezero]

"There are rules.

These keep the participants safe from serious harm or even death. They are necessary to a sport. WC is not a sport but a martial art, and inherently has things that do not follow the rules to keep people safe, except for the practitioner or those he may be defending. "

I don't agree with this line of reasoning about the lack of success of CMA in NHB matches; particularly with ving tsun. Sure there are some 'deadly' techniques, but there's sh!tloads of punching and kicking and thats certainly what I train the most. I almost never do neck-breaking stuff in chi sao :p but I sure wallop folks with my fists and palms...

I've never fought in a cagematch and maybe I never will (tho I sometimes think about it :eek: ) but I like to think that I could punch and kick with the rest of 'em. Now the grappling :confused:

In any case what I'm most interested in is who HAS represented wing chun in NHB and what have been the results?

Thanks.

[red5angel]

I agree to a certain extent Sanchezero, that there are plenty of moves that could work in the ring. If you study Wing Chun deep enough and long enough, you will come to find that there are also answers to the popular grappling weakness argument about WC.
Mostly what I am saying is this, In WC we have a full arsenal of things to use. WC is straight and to the point, and alot of that has to do with things you cannot do in the ring. now, if you limited your WC to just punches and kicks, there is alot you are not using, a whole mess of things that are effective but not allowed.
For example, I study WC for one reason, because I feel that if I am in a street fight and I meet someone who is my equal or less in the MA, I have a good chance of winning thefight because of WCs' no fluff attitude. I am however not so confident in a ring where I am only allowed to use a certain percentage of what I know.
Now a really good WC artist could probably survive pretty well in the ring against anybody, but we are talking a rare breed. Some of the researchI have done on a few of th guys who do WC in these tourneys shows they have the same problem most ma epople do now a days. no concentration on one art, going back and forth and all kinds of crosstraining and no real focus.
I truly believe that in afight on the street, a WC guy has one helluva better chance than a grappler who does it for sport, even UFC or similar styled sports.

[rubthebuddha]

kinda figured that was the nature of the topic. had troll written all over it.

however, at times when i'm not in too bad a mood, i like to read what other people have to say about wing chun. most of the time, it's some random nob whose wing chun experience is comprised solely of watching a william cheung mpeg they downloaded off some website. the rest? banter they've gotten from other people about who has done what. remember playing that game in elementary school where one kid is given a short story to tell, and the listener then has to repeat it to another kid, and so on, until by the 20th time the story has been told, little red riding hood had actualy shot the wolf with gramma's 9 mm, then took gramma's harley down to vegas and was found unconscious in a gutter with track marks on her wrists and elbows. same idea. the results of matches don't stay static the more times people tell them, nor do the names or styles, and it gets all poopy from there.

but, every now and then, someone raises a healthy issue/question with wing chun, like problems they have dealing with fast kicking arts or whether or not they feel chi sau is worth all the time and effort it's given. that stuff is positive, because iasks important questions and we have a good base of folks to bounce ideas off of. however, if some no hops up and says, "wing chun stinks and here's why," i don't think anyone really cares what that person says.

[iblis73]

I hate to say it but 90% of the wt/wc out there WONT WORK. Its really has a lot to do with how its trained. I am currently writing a paper on this topic, but here's the gist of it:

There's a lot of crappy wt/wc out there.

Too many people try to get away with a light workout becuase the style seems so effective.

There is a distinct lack of hard contact (ie helmet and gloves) sparring against one another AND against trained opponents, specifically boxers and wrestlers. This type of training is PARAMOUNT to real world self defense skills.

There is a lack of overkill training.

Despite its flexibility, few people train for spontanaity, sucker punches,and bizarre situations.

Wt/wc is a BOXING style-yet how much time is actually spent on punches (in the air,wallbag,chasing a person.)

Most reaction drills don't go beyond simple "this guy punches and I do this and that."

There is a distinct lack of conditioning in WT/wc schools.

I am not a wt/wc hater, in fact I used to help my si-hing teach it. However, we had very different ideas on what was important for drilling.

[Miles Teg]

I know that W.C is not designed for the ring, but I still dont see why it wouldnt be effective in one of these events. I dont think anyone really good has represented WC in this way yet.

I agree that these sports are not a very good representation of a real fight. I dont know about you guys but I havent often seen a street or bar fight that goes to the ground.

In some of these sports there doesnt seem much you cant do though. I know you cant poke in the eyes or hit the groin, but thats the sort of thing that women learn in community self defense lessons. Surely a W.C fighters skills exceed having to resort to that. One good punch in the nose would stop most people in their tracks and if not seriously disrupt them for the rest of the fight . I thought W.C was good at getting into an advantageous position and striking while still being safe yourself.

There are a few fighters that dont grapple much and still win, like Igor Vovchachin(spelling??).

I think it could work, its just waiting for the right person to do it.

[fmann]

Iblis73,

All of the points you state are excellent, but that aspect is more of the teaching style and teacher than the actual technical merits of the style.

"Why wt/wc won't work" and "Why wt/wc teaching methods that I have observed don't work" are two different things. It is hard to distinguish the causal effects of one on the other, but they are two distinct topics. For example, a certain technique may not be working because (1) it's inherently weak biomechanically or what not or (2) it's not taught properly. Both affect each other, but which one causes which?

But I totally agree with you. It's the people that make a system effective in a fight -- the system alone cannot make people effective in a fight.

[straight blast]

It is my understanding that WC is not a ring sport. I've been led to believe that WC is about destroying your opponent in the shortest time possible in the most efficient manner possible. When you put WC in the ring and say "Ok, no knee stomps, eye gouges, etc..." (my favourite techniques) then you might as well say to Royce Gracie "Ok Royce we want a good, clean fight...by the way, none of that grappling stuff".
Get the point?

But the biggest point would have to be that none of the "WC" fighters in the UFC had any more than six months casual cross-training in WC. And I mean casual. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't feel comfortable fighting with minimal rules (note: not NO RULES) after six months in a system that takes years to become proficient in.
We know better.
Good Wing Chun kicks a** :D

[iblis73]

I agree my posts where about the training and not the mechanics of the style. That being said my background is in both WT and various WC styles, and some styles use techniques that aren't very efficient or are dangerous to do. See my post under the topic "differences between vt/wt/wc."

Also, if so many people train so poorly, it becomes a reflection of the style. If you really want to be good at this style you MUST mix it up with boxers and wrestlers.

I should also add something else: as a traditional style it is one of the best. But the problem is that it is a "traditional" style and still takes time to apply the techniques. Also, being a style it has numerous rules. I have been researching this a lot lately and am coming to the opinion that if someone just wants self defense they should look elsewhere than traditional martial arts.

[red5angel]

I agree with that, anyone looking for self defense should probably go to a self defense class. That is why I think alot of traditional schools have such high turnover rates. A lot of people just want to come in learn a little about defending themselves and then move along.
I like your idea of training though. I too believe a lot of people dont train sufficiently, alot of them do all of thier training in class, maybe a little form work or something at home. Some do it sloppy because in America the mentality that I dont have to do anything I dont want to has been taken way out of context.

[greyseal]

Why wouldn't you use chi sao in a combat situation? Not the actual practice of the rolling hands, but the techniques must be applicable, no?

[iblis73]

The best thing I heard was from Emin Boztepe (okay stop booing) who said "chi sao is for 1 second-when you touch your opponent. After that its useless."

Basically what he means is that when you contact a part of your enemy thats the chi sau-then everything must flow from there. Chi sau is only a sensitivity drill albeit a good one.

Here's a great drill I learned from Emin-do your poon sau (double arm chi sau) with a partner. One of you instantly breaks and sort of ducks/does a punch to the gut.

As a side note, all the best WT fighters I've met had several years of previous training in more rigorous systems-namely boxing and wrestling.

[straight blast]

Couldn't agree more with Emin. Chi Sao is exactly for that intitial moment of contact. Some of the guys who are really good at Chi Sau are so hard to fight because the moment you make contact (block to punch, punch to punch, etc.) they are able to immediately determine your intent or force you to their intent and slam you.
But what just plain ol' Chi Sau is good for is when you're mucking around with another practitioner of a different MA (or just a friend for that matter) and they try to flick quick punches at you. I like to tangle their arms and just play with them. I actually finger jabbed my wife fair on the tip of the nose the other day by accident. Just pure instinct, and I caught her right on the nose.
No damage done thankfully.
And yes, I hope that my time in boxing/Muay Thai will pay off in my Wing Chun. I'm pretty sure it will.

[alienofwar]

If someone who wants self-defense cant wait 4 years to become a good fighter than they will become a poor fighter because it takes not only dedication but patience when it comes to a traditional art. Remeber these traditional arts took centuries just to become refined and cannot take a few years just to be memorized! You must grow with the art, fully understand and soak yourself into it to fully use it to your interest.

Also there are two people who want to take a martial art, one who wants to fight and the other who wants to develope both mind and body. If you want to fight...sure take boxing but if you want to grow take Wing Chun!

Thats my two cents.

[iblis73]

I hear a lot of that "tmas are good for self discipline,etc." Well, I'm not totally convinced. As stated before MOST people sign up with self defense in mind. We don't want to take years to learn to fight. I take this aspect very seriously due to a recent violent encounter: mark this, you may, at any time, have to use your training to save your life or that of someone you love. If, for any reason, your art/style/teacher hasn't prepared you, you are not only in trouble but in need of rethinking your self defense goals.

[whippinghand]

Originally posted by iblis73
There's a lot of crappy wt/wc out there. Too many people try to get away with a light workout becuase the style seems so effective.
Very true.
There is a distinct lack of hard contact (ie helmet and gloves) sparring against one another AND against trained opponents, specifically boxers and wrestlers. This type of training is PARAMOUNT to real world self defense skills.
What, in your opinion, are "real world self defense skills"? And what "world" are you referring to? The one that existed at the time Wing Chun was created? The one that existed at the time Yip Man moved to Hong Kong, and modified the Wing Chun to suit its society? Or the world now, where Wing Chun is becoming a boxing style, a sport?
Despite its flexibility, few people train for spontanaity, sucker punches,and bizarre situations.
How would you train for this?
Wt/wc is a BOXING style-yet how much time is actually spent on punches (in the air,wallbag,chasing a person.)
Hmmm... I thought it was a martial art, not a sport.

[Martial Joe]

hey wing man, I already know wing chun works, I just wanna know y this guy(or any one else) thinks it dosn't.


Badass my friend, he is just being a stupid dummy...

[Martial Joe]

It is my understanding that WC is not a ring sport


I dont understand why you feal that way...

Use your wing chun for stand up,go learn ground work, get good at them both,fight in the ring...

Just because you can kick a guy in the balls and rip his eyes out doesnt mean you cant use the art.
Think about it, all the other people in there have to follow the same rules as you do...

[old jong]

Wing chun should work very well if the fighter was aware of the "reality" of the ring!...You need to be able to defend against takedowns and have a good knowledge of the most important ground escapes and guard tactics.You have also to be good enough in wing chun to understand that you cant stop a guy like Pat Beneteau facing him in YGKYM like a complete moron!...You have also to know that if you chase the hands of a guy like Pat Beneteau,instead of his face,he will shoot you to the ground and punch you to a pulp. Chi sau as you will painfully learn does not work very well with a 250 pds guy sitting on your chest!...
:rolleyes:

[rogue]

So you're saying that WC doesn't work against Frenchmen?:confused:

[iblis73]

WT is a BOXING style. From leung tings poster:wing tsun is a method of chinese pugilism. Pugilism is boxing, or striking and parrying with the hands. This can be done as a sport or self defense. As it is, I don't see WT becoming a "sport" anywhere.

Real World Self Defense skills-the ability to survive a street fight vs. a highly skilled assailant.

As for how to train for these skills, hard workout EVERY time. When my seniors trained us (not the instructor) and in time when I trained the class I would work for some serious conditioning, albeit using wt techniques.

Full contact sparring, within reason, develops excellent self defense skills. But so does full contact reflex drills. For example, get out some mats and work takedowns with a SKILLED partner. Learn how its done, get comfortable with it, then you will be much better of to stop it.

Have a partner put on boxing gloves and come after you. Learn how to parry,evade and shut him down. Its different when someone is really trying to take your head off.

Do sucker punch drills and scenario training. Sucker punch drills can be done 2 ways: defending vs. sucker punch (and I mean here any surprise attack) and ATTACKING with a sucker punch. I found when we did this (the attacking portion), especially with full contact, we become really good at DETECTING similar surprises.

[old jong]

Yeah Rogue. I'm a frenchman and I know wing chun works on me...It is TKD that does'nt!!!:D

[iblis73]

AS for scenario training, figure out where you might be attacked. An elevator, staircase, sitting on a chair. Put on some headgear and a mouthguard and have someone come after you in said location.

Try the third basemens drill-you stand talking with a partner, with your hands in various positions (eg, on your hips, brushing your hair, etc.) Have him give you a good shove/slap and you have to block/parry/evade and control him without punching/striking him.

Heres another fun one:
Have your students pair up in two lines. One group turns their back to the other group. The second group initiates attackes/takedowns by basically sneaking up behind them and grabbing/throwing them. Need more spice? Have the defenders do it blindfolded.

Here are some real world scenarios you can play with:
You are sitting in your car w/the window down. A helmeted motorcycle rider comes up and grabs you or starts punching you thru the window.

You are in bed with the lights out. You wake up to having a man on top of you attacking you. You're under the sheets. (try doing this in a real bedroom-its not fun.)

You live in a corner apartment, and the light outside is out. Its night. AS you fumble for your keys someone comes around the corner and tackles you or attacks you.

You are sitting in a chair in a computer lab. An angry person comes up and starts threatening you. Then he attacks while you are still seated.

For more ways to do this, check out Tony Blauers Panic Attack series from Panther productions.

[iblis73]

Gongfu has traditionally in China been referred to as a boxing method. Thus the term "Chinese Boxing". Thats why theres white crane boxing, plum flower boxing, etc. Obviously these methods incorporate more than just fists and striking with them, but its important to note.

[iblis73]

PS I love wing tsuns techniques, but thats all wing tsun really is. The training isn't up to par for street combat, imho. Again, I want to clarify this is based on what I've seen. I'd love to train wing tsun with a heavy focus on the basics and lots of self defense training.

I also want to recomend that people should visit tony blauers website. He heads tactical confrontation management systems. People I've seen NO ONE address the psychological and adrenal problems of fighting in more detail. His tapes are unreal-I just bought a set and after watching them I can't bring myself to train in even a vale tudo school. They're really unbelievable.

And while I focus a bit much on the fighting side, its only becuase the consequences of losing can be tremendous. Just think, as your reading this, or as you go home tonight, there could be someone that is going to try to kill you-for your money,becuase you're in the way, or just becuase. Has your training prepared you for a life and death struggle???

[OdderMensch]

ever get out to Fort Worth? You'd like our kwoon.

hows this for a drill :

one person is surrounded by two others. one person does a grab, then as soon as it is counterd person two does another grab. As soon as thats "done" attacker #1 steps back up, and so on and so on. you try and give the "defender" 0 time to think/breathe between attacks.

you get real dizzy real quick, but learn to stay on your feet and relaxed.

[whippinghand]

So, basically, you're saying that you train a sport, not a martial art.

[mun hung]

What in the world are you people talking about? Take up a self defence class instead of Wing Chun to learn how to fight??? What would you suggest - karate? (sorry rogue) Are you people serious? What kind of Wing Chun/Wing Tsun are you learning anyway?

This is probably the reason why Wing Chun, yes Wing Chun is in the state that it's in. You talk about all kinds of drills, but they are all worthless if they can't help you in a fight. After all; was'nt Wing Chun developed to teach a person how to fight efficiently in a short amount of time.

In fact, I have a very realistic drill that you should try. Have the biggest strongest guy you know walk up to you and punch you or kick you as hard as he can. If you can't do anything to stop him I suggest you quit practicing and just buy a gun.

Double bong sau???:D :D :D :D :D

[kungfu cowboy]

Wing chun should work anywhere. . Even with eye gouges and throat strikes excluded.

[fmann]

Like I said though, it's not the system, but the training methods that are poor. Different people train it differently. Just like any martial art, you'll have some people that are good and some that are out to make money.

At least I know that here in the NYC, we keep it real. As real is real. .:cool:

[Novox77]

If you haven't already, check out GM Keith Kernspecht's book "BlitzDefence." The sole purpose of the book is to address the psychological aspects of realistic street confrontations, and how/why the principles we learn in WT/WC are the best for defending one's self. From all of your previous posts, it seems to me that you feel there's a disconnect between your WT training and applying what you know in a realistic situation. This book will help out a lot, IMO.

[Novox77]

You said:

"At least I know that here in the NYC, we keep it real. As real is real. ."


Putting some realism in practice (realism meaning more realistic, faster, stronger attacks) can be beneficial to your training, but if it's done every day or very often, it tends to make you stiff and spastic. The majority of training should be to develop contact reflexes with drills such as chi sao. Chisao is not intended to be a sparring drill where both people are trying to beat the crap out of each other in a weird set of rules. In good time and training, you'll develop a large set of contact reflexes, and defending realistic attacks will become effortless. An occasional day for realism (like once a month or two) is good to gauge how much you can rely on your wingchun to defend against a realistic encounter.

[old jong]

Too much emphasis on "sparring" and "self-defense tricks" is not cultivating Wing Chun skills! The biggest part of training should be on Chi sau in every ways and related drills. Real progress can be checked once in a while to see if you are not imitating Bruce Lee or something!:rolleyes: :D

[iblis73]

When we say its better to train a self defense method than a TMA, we mean better than any TMA, karate included. Think of cops and commandos: they don't have the time to learn a whole system. So basically a systems like American Combatives, though I feel even that has some limitations in regards to some grappling and boxing moves. After that the person should move on to a more formal system.

Mun Hung, thats actually a very good idea for a drill. Having a large person come up and punch and kick you a full force would be great. The key is to do it more than once and from various angles.

An over realiance on sparring should make one very smooth and it would certainly help cultivate your wing tsun skills. Chi sao is great but only a contact reflex. Also, these are not self defense "tricks" as I'm describing them-they are drills to help you react in a spontaneous way using your techniques. In each drill I mentioned THERE IS NO PRESET COUNTER. Really the drills are good for intermediate students (or higher) so they can already have a set of techniques to use.

For the record I don't think highly of Bruce Lee and I've never studied a sport, with the exception of 2 godawful yrs. of tkd.

I'd like to check out the Blitzdefence book. I've got 2 copies of on single combat, one of the best written MA books ever (I have a spanish edition too-:)

Odder, do you train under Cottrell? I liked his website, impressive background to say the least!

[iblis73]

Also for the record my old instructor was very good technically speaking.

[iblis73]

And since everyone has an opinion I'd appreciate you checking out my other thread NEED SOME ADVICE and gimme' some advice!

Thanks

[Steven T. Richards]

Hello iblis,

You raise some very good points, and you take a risk posting in that way on a single style forum. There will always be the emotive
barriers to get by when people think that their belifs and personal values are being attacked or undermined - even when they may not be, but rather some intelligent and reflective questions are being asked.

The problem is that any 'reference group' that identifies itself as a martial arts style will immediately react defensively, rather than think about how different they all actually are from one another.

All Wing-Chun is not the same, and yet the answers to your points tend (not exclusively so) to suggest that it is.

Surely, it should be whose Wing-Chun and which practitioners in what sitautions etc. Thought about that way, differences become less of a threat and more interesting as well as more informative.

I must say that as for a martial art being contrasted with a martial sport, well, at least with the latter (if you mean MMA, NHB Cage etc) then there demonstrable results. It is easy to claim that
a martial art is 'deadly' etc, but, where is the proof of that for a given individual? How many dead in street fights?

A lot of traditional martial arts from all Pai and systems lose some measure of credibility when their practitioners simply mouth on about other peoples fights - real or imagined and gain their 'deadly skills' vicariously or otherwise by proxy. That is a virtual world and nothing more.

I have no doubt that many Wing-Chun people are great not only at their 'art' but also at fighting for their lives. I also have no doubt that a lot of martial artists have never been tested other than in their imaginations.

You have raised very interesting points, and hopefully you'll get a net response that errs on the side of maturity, reflection and real experience, not just for Wing-Chun but for us all.

[Novox77]

Iblis,

Blitzdefence is basically a focused area of study that offshoots from the logic Kernspecht presented in "On Single Combat." In "OSC" he convinces you why WT/WC is the best defense. In Blitzdefence, he convinces you how to utilize this best defense when there's a thug itching to beat the stuffing out of you. I was more drawn to the psychology of the thug and of the defender in realistic situations, and I felt he hit the nail on the head in describing those feelings of apprehension in the crucial moments before and during the fight. It also addresses the legal considerations of fighting and techniques you can use to maximize your leverage in court, should the need arise.

[alienofwar]

Here is a real situation.

How about having a pistol pointed right behind your head? Where is your real world self-defense techniques now big boy?

Like Bruce Lee said, the classical martial arts are living in the past. The modern day self-defense is a good gun at your side.

Unless you live in Canada, then your only self defense is a martial art, or a hockey stick! Now thats a real fight!

[Novox77]

alienofwar: funny you should mention that, because GM Kernspecht states flat out in "On Single Combat" that the best self defense system is the Smith and Wesson system (that's a gun manufacturer for those of you unfamiliar with guns).

No one is saying that empty hand martial arts is the universal solution for ALL possible hostile situations in the real world. But I'm inclined to believe that my chances of engaging in a weaponless confrontation is much greater than encountering someone pointing a gun at me. And if one day, every person on a street carries a gun, then I'll believe that empty-hand martial arts are obsolete.

And how do you suppose having a gun will help if someone already has a gun pointed at you?

[alienofwar]

I live in Canada so I dont really worry about guns. Although I dont know how true the stories are in the states, but I hear guns are fairly common and that you never know if the person you get into a fight with might be carrying a gun. Come to think of it, most people would be afraid to use a gun just to steal a few bucks, so maybe martial arts would be effective. But what do I care, the only thing I must worry about up here is pepper spray...but wait even that is illegal to use! :rolleyes:

[iblis73]

WT and many other systems can be effective at fighting. By doing scenario based drills in various real world locations you develop better spontanaity (god I can't spell the freekin word) and the ability to improvise.

I also believe that real world self defense includes the use of sticks, knives, improvised weapons. I am also a firm believer that to be well rounded you need some good firearms training-pistol and shotgun at minimum, prefereably also some exposure to assault weapons. And yes, I am currently seeking expert instruction in firearms training. Fortunately I've found out about Thunder Ranch which is not to far from San Antonio.

Estampale espurs!

[fmann]

Exactly. And how many people will accost you with guns? I live in NYC, up in Harlem, and ain't never been harassed by nobody with a gat. Shivs and what not, yeah, but most thugs realize that smoking a 9 will get you 5 to life more so than blades will -- at least you can dispose of the latter easier than the former.

That's what I talking about keeping it real. And keeping it gangsta. :D :cool:

As for WT/WC/VT, a good teacher will always be willing to explore new methods of teaching and conveying the concepts. Teaching and learning is a complementary affair -- good teachers develop from good students, and good students develop from good teachers. If one person is not conveying something realistically enough or clearly enough, it is up to the students to point that out and work towards improvement. It's a synergistic affair.

There is no answer to why something doesn't work, only why something appears to not be working. And that appearance is due to the people, not the system. You train realistically, you'll more likely be able to deal with things realistically. If all you do is drills and chi sao all day and don't know how to control/channel/react to fear, then what will you do when a pcp crazed thug wants to wax your @ss?

Oximoronically, the answer to the above rhetorical question is you pack your @ss up and run. Unless you tote a high caliber, that is.

[Novox77]

The stereotype goes that people down south in the US are the gun totin' folk, with their gun racks on their truck and in their home. I do agree in general that people down south are the ones who tend to own guns. I grew up in Georgia, and we had 2 handguns, a shotgun, and a rifle. You would be weird if while you were growing up, you never went out into the woods to shoot at small wildlife, at least with a BB gun/rifle. But most of these people keep their guns at home. Either they enjoy collecting guns, they hunt with them, or they keep them for defense against burglary. It's uncommon to carry a gun on you when you went out.

We stress in WT that there is no guarantee of defense when your attacker is armed. While we have techniques against basic stick, knife, and gun attacks, we warn all students to not fall into a false sense of security. Any person who is expert in using a stick, knife, or gun will quickly and easily hurt you or kill you if all you have are your 2 bare hands. Sometimes, running away, or surrendering your wallet is your best defense.

[whippinghand]

Originally posted by iblis73
Chi sao is great but only a contact reflex.

I'm sorry, are you on the right forum? Or did you mistake this for JKD?

[Majic Sam]

Just two words for y'all-KAZUSHI SAKURABA!-Whoah,sorry about that,I thought I was at Sherdog's for a moment!

[iblis73]

I did not mistake this for a JKD forum, I have never practiced JKD so I'm lost as to the analogy.

Who is SAKURABA?

[whippinghand]

Originally posted by iblis73
I did not mistake this for a JKD forum, I have never practiced JKD so I'm lost as to the analogy.

An excellent choice of word: lost

[Majic Sam]

Kazushi Sakuraba is the worlds top 185 lb. Mixed Martial Arts competitor.I see on your profile that you study BJJ,so be warned,Saku is known as the Gracie hunter.He has beaten 4 Gracie family members in an event known as Pride,which is a more brutal Japanese version of the UFC.He is BJJ's worst nightmare,having beaten Royce,Renzo,Ryan and Royler Gracie.Fight fans worldwide are anxiously waiting for Rickson Gracie to step up and defend the family name(oh,the drama),but Rickson seems content avoiding this match,saying that Saku has 'no aura'(sure dude...).

Sakuraba is a former Japanese tv wrestler who is well versed in Catch Wrestling submission,Muay Thai kicks and generally just being an all around clown.He is the most popular MMArtist in Japan,and has only lost twice.Both to Brazil's Vanderlai Silva,who is a Chute Boxe(BJJ,Muay Thai) team member,also known as "The Axe Murderer".Saku gave up nearly 20 lbs to Silva,and lost most recently from a broken collarbone/shoulder due to a body slam.Any serious BJJ player would do well to familiarize w/ Saku's skills in order to learn the drawbacks in BJJ.

[yuanfen]

Iblis comments and Richard answers:

The thread is getting muddled but some comments follow:
wing chun has spread so fast that most of it is junk. So some of your questions about the reliability of the art for self defense
desrves consideration. However, I dont see much wing chun knowledge either in both your postings.(I do not know you as persons and I make no comments on you as persons apart from your comments here). Very good Chinese martial arts are not mass produced. Even Yip Man genuinely taught only a few students- the rest went out the same door they came in.

[iblis73]

What comments show a lack of WT knowledge? I trained rather aggresively for 3 or so years under the (current) highest level technician in the U.S. I've touched hands with si-hing jeff webb,si-sok K.Sonnenberg,most of Webbs students and the former head of the AWTO. My seniors included one of the most highly respected bouncers in San Antonio.

Perhaps you misinterpreted some of what I've said.

[Novox77]

I don't think any of us have any good idea on how street effective wingchun is unless we are close to mastering the system. Some would think that they've mastered the system once they've been taught everything. Putting what is taught into application is a totally different story. Contact reflexes aren't ingrained into you in just a few months' training.

Wingchun also doesn't claim to be the unbeatable system. Wingchun claims to be the most efficient (or one of the most efficient) systems of self defense. This implies that for the amount of good training you put into, you'll get more for your buck than people learning other styles. Questions like: "how does WC compare to MMA or BJJ?" are totally pointless. For the sake of argument, let's assume that WC is the more efficient system. Does that mean that the WC practitioner who has trained on and off for a couple of years is going to defeat the person who's trained in MMA for 10 years? Probably not.

What makes Wingchun effective is not the specific techniques, but the principles in which those techniques are based upon. ANY style that adheres to those principles will have the edge. Such principles are:

Always go forward.
Simultaneous attack and defense
Bombard the opponent with constant attacks
Borrow the force of the opponent

If you've done wingchun for a few years and feel frustrated or unconfident that you could use wingchun effectively in a realistic situation, then keep training. Master those contact reflexes. If your Sifu is a good fighter and a good teacher, trust in his teachings; he knows what's best for you.

[yuanfen]

Iblis sez:PS I love wing tsuns techniques, but thats all wing tsun really is. The training isn't up to par for street combat, imho. Again, I want to clarify this is based on what I've seen.

And again Iblis sez:Chi sao is great but only a contact reflex.

He also sez that he has touched hands with some top WT people.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

SO? For generalizing about wing chun at least- your limitations are self evident. I base my opinion on your own statements.

[yuanfen]

Iblis further sez:What comments show a lack of WT knowledge? I trained rather aggresively for 3 or so years under the (current) highest level technician in the U.S. I've touched hands with si-hing jeff webb,si-sok K.Sonnenberg,most of Webbs students and the former head of the AWTO. My seniors included one of the most highly respected bouncers in San Antonio.

Perhaps you misinterpreted some of what I've said.

----------------------------------------
No misinterpretation. 3 years of wt and having a bouncer for a senior. Hardly enough to analyse the depth of a TCMA.

[iblis73]

Chi sao is a contact reflex-this is true.
WT is really just physical techniques and a method of appying them. In retrospect saying its just a collection of physical techniques is offline, it does have fight strategy/philosophy. However it really doesn't address psychological factors (fear,on/off switching,addrenaline dump.) It is lacking in the use of modern weapons (knife,pistol,club,imrovised weapon,and firearms.) I will say the AWTO also had escrima, which nullified some of this.

I have to say that after 3 years of dedicated training I felt my self defense skills completely lacking. Its easy to blame the student but if the instructor(s) are not imparting the skills the student needs to survive a fight then I question the legitimacy of the instructor, regardless of rank. It shouldn't take 3 years to defend oneself, especially in a system like wing tsun that was supposedly created to get people up to fighting speed in a short time.

If we can't really tell how effective WT in street fighting until we've mastered the system than its not terribly efficient at creating fighters.

In the back of Leung Tings "Dynamic Wing Tsun" he states that you will not know whether you're techniques will work in a real fight unless you apply them at full speed/power with an opponent (see the last chapter on safety gear.) Yet I have yet to meet a WT school where students do this (or even full contact lat sau for that matter.)

This will be my last post, I've said my peace. I hope you will ruminate on what I said in my previous posts and not gloss over them. There are many people taking traditional arts that simply want to be able to fight, and fight well and the arts are not addressing this.

Good day & good luck

[fmann]

Originally posted by iblis73
Chi sao is a contact reflex-this is true.
WT is really just physical techniques and a method of appying them. In retrospect saying its just a collection of physical techniques is offline, it does have fight strategy/philosophy. However it really doesn't address psychological factors (fear,on/off switching,addrenaline dump.) It is lacking in the use of modern weapons (knife,pistol,club,imrovised weapon,and firearms.) I will say the AWTO also had escrima, which nullified some of this.

Like I said, don't generalize. In my WT school, we do train against knife, pistol, etc. and we do train to use improvised weapons. Although true fear cannot really be trained in a "safe" school environment, we also try to train that with the "circle of death" type drill, where an attacker can be anywhere and can attack anytime.


If we can't really tell how effective WT in street fighting until we've mastered the system than its not terribly efficient at creating fighters.

I disagree with this above statement. The effectiveness of WT in street fighting is tested when one enters a street fight. You don't have to be a master, nor the best at WT, to be a fighter, as WhippingHand has pointed out numerous times.


In the back of Leung Tings "Dynamic Wing Tsun" he states that you will not know whether you're techniques will work in a real fight unless you apply them at full speed/power with an opponent (see the last chapter on safety gear.) Yet I have yet to meet a WT school where students do this (or even full contact lat sau for that matter.)

Again don't generalize. Just because you've never seen it doesn't mean that every school in the entire world doesn't. At my school, we've done full-contact stuff, albeit with the safety of protective equipment.


...There are many people taking traditional arts that simply want to be able to fight, and fight well and the arts are not addressing this.

I agree with the above. Self-defense and martial arts are 2 different things. Being able to brawl and being a martial artist are 2 different things.

Like I said, don't generally diss the system just because you've had one bad experience in one localized area.

[whippinghand]

Originally posted by iblis73
I trained rather aggresively for 3 or so years under the (current) highest level technician in the U.S. I've touched hands with si-hing jeff webb,si-sok K.Sonnenberg,most of Webbs students and the former head of the AWTO. My seniors included one of the most highly respected bouncers in San Antonio.
Is there a point you are attempting to make here? Is any of this supposed to mean anything?

I HOPE you are not name dropping to substantiate your skill or your training...

[whippinghand]

Originally posted by iblis73
Chi sao is a contact reflex-this is true.

BULL****!

[Martial Joe]

WhippingHand attacks...


Bum! Bum! Bummm!!!!

[Novox77]

Chi sao is a DRILL that is designed to teach you contact reflexes.

[yuanfen]

"Chi sao is a DRILL that is designed to teach you contact reflexes"
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Better than the last characterization by Iblis.That is still a fig leaf that ignores a vast area.
Strictly a drill implies mechanical repetitiveness-
that is not what good chi sao is about.

[Novox77]

But if the goal of chisao is to develop contact reflexes, then ideally, you can react spontaneously, correctly, and not mechanically. The very nature of this drill prevents it from becoming mechanical. There are set drills and patterns inside chisao that all have a purpose: to teach you a unique reflex. The beginner learns all of these set patterns not so that a mechanical pattern emerges, but a way to react with different types of forces. Once these reflexes are mastered, you can throw any attack outside of the set drill patterns and expect your reflexes to kick in.

The only reason the hands "roll" in chi sao is because of the force generated by the fook sau. People who roll for the sake of making it look like chi sao have missed the point of the drill and they ARE turning chisao into a mechanical drill.

[yuanfen]

Novox sez:The only reason the hands "roll" in chi sao is because of the force generated by the fook sau. People who roll for the sake of making it look like chi sao have missed the point of the drill and they ARE turning chisao into a mechanical drill
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Not a bad insight.!

[whippinghand]

Originally posted by Novox77
But if the goal of chisao is to develop contact reflexes, then ideally, you can react spontaneously, correctly, and not mechanically.
It is NOT to develop reflexes. Why do chi sau at all? Why do you need to roll at all?

The very nature of this drill prevents it from becoming mechanical.
Based on your statements you clearly do not understand the "nature" of this drill.

There are set drills and patterns inside chisao that all have a purpose: to teach you a unique reflex.
After only 4 years of training, I can understand why you think this.
Perhaps, you should integrate more chi sau into your training, and do your students and Wing Chun a favor by not telling them your chi sau theory.

Once these reflexes are mastered, you can throw any attack outside of the set drill patterns and expect your reflexes to kick in. What if they don't? What if you're not up for fighting that day? What if you're sick, and you happen to be attacked? What if you're too intimidated, or too scared? Will the reflexes kick in, then?

The only reason the hands "roll" in chi sao is because of the force generated by the fook sauI'll ask again.. Why do chi sau at all? Why do you need the rolling at all?

[Novox77]

whippinghand: you speak as if everyone has instinctive reflexes that will always work in fights. If this were true, then you have a point. Why do chi sao? Why roll? Well then why learn wing chun at all?

The reflexes I refer to in chisao are the reflexes of knowing what to do instinctively when you FEEL the opponent's force. We are training our mind to not rely on the instinctive visual reflexes, since they tend to make us vulnerable to fakes.

You criticize my 4 years of training and imply that the chisao theory I presented was something I came up with on my own. I would be arrogant to claim that I single-handedly claim to understand why chisao was been developed. Obviously the theories I presented were what I was taught in my lineage of wingchun. The vast majority of WT practitioners, beginner or expert, would agree with the theory I presented.

I do in fact, make chisao the dominant part of my training, because I believe that the contact reflexes are what make wingchun unique to most other styles. If chisao were meant for sparring, why roll? why not just throw realistic attacks in a realistic way? I can only assume you think chisao is meant for sparring, since you vehemently deny that chisao is not for training reflexes, and you offer no perspective on what you think chisao is for.

And finally, to address your final point about being sick or not wanting to fight on the day I'm attacked: well I'm sh_t out of luck. If I'm deathly ill with pneumonia, my WT probably won't help me much, no matter how many years I trained. Does that mean we should all quit training because there's the chance we might get sick on the day we might need to defend ourselves? Get a clue. Maybe you think chisao is for how to fight when you're sick or not in the mood to fight.

[jweir]

WhippingHand,

What is the "nature" of chi sau if it's not to develop contact reflexes? You've attacked Novox for some of his word choices, but you haven't said anything Wing Chun related to back up your claims that he is incorrect. Also, what branch of the WC tree are you on and how long have you been studying?

[whippinghand]

Those who know, know. Those who don't may figure it out, as long as they don't nutshell it with statements as in the previous posts.

[[Censored]]

...However it really doesn't address psychological factors (fear,on/off switching,addrenaline dump.)

Ironically enough, this is addressed by the first form.

[whippinghand]

good call, Censored!

[vingtsunstudent]

can i just say that 4 years is not a lot of time in training.
chi sao teaches about a little more than a few of you have said-but here are just a few more basic things- how to use the whole body to attack, this includes angles of attack, the use of the feet & waist when under pressure, it teaches you about foward pressure from the elbows, it puts you in a position where you will learn to hold such a solid position that you movements may not as easily moved off the target even by a somewhat larger & stronger opponent.
there are so many more things that chi sao teaches about fighting besides just when contact is made or your arms become tangled etc. but it can take many years even under a good teacher for them to be found.
vts
ps mind you all of these can be discovered in the first form as well, it's only now that in chi sao you have a partner to offer you a little extra pressure:) ;) :rolleyes:

[whippinghand]

Can you put all that into one sentence?

[mun hung]

coverage.

[S.Teebas]

What is coverage?


S.Teebas

[mun hung]

coverage: something that covers. The act or fact of covering.

Just like in the dictionary.:)

[vingtsunstudent]

hey whippy,
one sentence, hell i haven't even had to take a breath since posting that yesterday.......such is my ving tsun chi;)
vts

[whippinghand]

I wasn't joking... Can you sum all that up in one sentence?

[vingtsunstudent]

whipping hand,
which part?
the escence i could but as you know i prefer to rave on with a bit of dribble while i'm at it.
vts

[whippinghand]

What is the purpose of chi sau?

[vingtsunstudent]

well it's sunday morning & i'm quite wasted again but off the top of my drunken head-
to give you a FEEL for the opponents movements like no other exercise i've ever encountered, to train absouletely correct positioning or pay the price(i love hard core training partners) & to bridge the gap between the techniques(i hate the word techniques but i'm sure you know what i mean-this system inlcudes a whole way of thinking) learnt in training & REAL fighting more than many will ever understand.
well whippy i think if you read right into that it should cover everything but if there is more please share it with me(don't worry it's christmas & your secret will be safe with me, unless i'm to smashed to remember):cool:
vts
ps in one sentence, gee, you don't ask for much, do ya.

[whippinghand]

I asked for one sentence, not several with commas instead of periods. Try it when you're sober.

[vingtsunstudent]

you know commas can be used & it can still be one sentence.
just look at the first sentence you wrote in that reply.
it was one sentence, sorry if you can't see that.
vts

[benny]

Ive just got back on the net and i look around and its all the same.
whipping hand is just ripping people off without once backing up his statements with a single word.
let me guess you wouldnt be in politics would you.

[Merryprankster]

I don't really belong here, and I'm sure that some of you will be kind enough to point that out; however, I'd just like to address something really quickly:

I have no idea about the success level of WC in MMA type events. The postings about rules don't seem quite accurate to me as the original rules for the UFC were no eye-gouging, biting or fishhooking. All else was legal. Wins were by submission or knockout.

These same sets of rules can be found in different places in Brazil if anybody chooses to fight in the ring, under a more "no rules," environment than one would find in the US.

So, there are venues where the restrictions are fewer!

[yuanfen]

Hi Merryprankster: Just a few points-

1. The UFC contests easily labels (I haven't watched for quite
some time) contestants as muay thai etc. Despite it's spread
good wing chun remains quite rare. To the best of my knowledge,
really accomplished and broadly respected(across lineage divides)wing chun folks have not entered these contests.There have been a couple of low level newbies who identified themselves or were identified as wing chunners. BTW, there have not been top flight boxers either. They make much more money doing what they do. Some time ago in the early Gracie days the winners final purse after going through eliminating bouts was around $60,000. For those who are interested primarily in money the cost-benefit ratios are not really interesting. For those folks who want to fight for the sake of fighting they can easily start one in key locations in many urban areas including my metro area. Sometimes it turns to gun fu....unfortunately and the police get involved as they do in a real lethal game.

2 Those are sporting events. By definition real challenges to the death are not beyond the permitted arenas of activity in both criminal and civil law in every state. In a real duel (without criminal and civil liabilities),the parties could
re define many things in the current contexts of the UFC type of events-- floors(mats), octagons, cages, ropes.

3. In the kung fu histories- key wing chun folks have had to take care of themselves in life and death situations.

4. After watching a few UFC events, personally I got bored by them. But internal juices can flow strangely--- if you can arrange it for a million dollar purse for the winner and training expenses only for the loser- I can possibly find an opponent for lets say
the well known patriarch of the Gracie family. I doubt that the public or a promoter would be interested. The venue can be
an unpaved parking lot or alley in phoenix. Silly.
I do understand your devotion to the grappling arts.
Perhaps if the UFC could become more financially attractive than world class boxing (not likely) one might see a different kind of entrants.

5. Wing chun- many will disagree- is not a striking art or a grappling art or a throwing art or a breaking art- though those phenomena can come into play. It is about developing the abilities
and the controls for self defense when needed. In the meantime good wing chun teachers should be conscious of the implications of their art on vertical, horizontal and in between perspectives.
The real good ones do.

[yuanfen]

BTW Merryprankster, Ralek has raised some of these questions
in his own unique way.
Best...

[Merryprankster]

Oh, hey, I'm not knocking anything, and am not questioning the success of WC as a fighting art. I don't really even have any questions to raise, mostly because I'm not that curious. Nobody needs to prove anything, unless they have a big mouth, then I feel it's put up or shut up.

Just pointing out that if a WC guy (or anybody else for that matter) ever feels the need to step into the ring, but feels that the rules in US amateur and pro events are too restrictive, then there ARE other venues available. A suppose a streetfight is a venue, but as you pointed out, Gun Fu is rather dangerous, and nobody likes getting incarcerated for fighting... Some travel would be necessary, but if that's something the person REALLY wants to do, then travel shouldn't be much of an issue.

Regards,

James