CQC Strangulation Methods

[Black Jack]

I wanted to know if anyone here works with or modifies their naked chokes for lethal cqc situations and what methods do you focus on?

The topic is more in line with the nasty carotid strangulation and tracheal crushing methods than with those chokes which just deal with cutting off one's air supply.

I find the western cqc methods such as the USMC O'Neil naked strangle or the Captain Allan Smith "deathlock" to be simple and very dangerous cqc choking techniques.

From the Asian fistic systems perspective I have a good deal of faith in my Chi Dao Ch'uans eagle subset and it's seizing and throat sealing methods as well as a good old fashioned japenese strangle hold.

Most sleeper holds can be converted to a killing choke once the basic body mechanics are understood on how to crank in a hold.

For the sake of discussion lets keep this a educated thread as the content is very serious

[Paul]

Hey what's up Blackjack? We've discussed Chi Tao Chuan before. I used to live in Chicago, moved out to the left coast recently.

I was in the USMC and I don't remember the USMC O'Neil naked strangle? what the heck is that? maybe my memory is getting really bad.

[Black Jack]

The O' Neill choke I am in reference to is from the Irish WWII h2h instructor Dermot O'Neill.

He was a remarkable civilan cqc expert and a memeber of the infamous Shanghai International Police force who became a imported WWII military combatives teacher for Colonel "Wild Bill" Donovan and his O.S.S.

He was the teacher of men such as Charles Nelson.

His system was a mix of old school japenese ju jitsu techniques, karate and down and dirty street fighting.

I also believe the O'Neill system was used in the Viet Nam era (68-73) for the corps intell it was replaced by another approach.

The O'Neill naked strangle is like a modified japenese strangle hold where you drop your body weight and follow up into a neck break.

The method I have seen is where you drop your weight into a deep squat, breaking their neck with the sudden pressure as you drop your body weight into the choke.

The "deathlock" is by Captain Allan Smith who taught h2h for the Army in WWI at Camp Gordon.

That nasty tech is a sudden windpipe/larynx crush which is applied with the wrist instead of the meat of the forearm.

[Water Dragon]

O'Neil Quick Kill, pretty vicious stuff. I don't know, but have heard, that it's the base for the SAS Defendu system.

[Nichiren]

The nasty neck-brake lock is shown and described in the US army standard manual for sentry killing. It aslo show some really nasty knife techniques for sentry killing.

I can't find the manual online anymore but it used to be there under the mil pages.

[Black Jack]

Water Dragon:

That would be the two legends who started it all for military based silent killing tactics and cqb.

The British Major W.E. Fairbarin and Captain Bill Sykes.

Fairbairn was the Chief of the Shanghai Municipal Police force before the Japenese capture of the city and Sykes was a member of their sniper squad.

They trained the SAS and other SOG units at Camp X as well as various O.S.S. camps here in the states such as Area B in Maryland (Camp David).

Silent killing, unarmed combat, blade work, improvised weapons, close combat shooting, psychological training and other ilk to not only soliders but the cloak and dagger crowd.

Does your system work with chokes and throat strikes?

[Water Dragon]

Does your system work with chokes and throat strikes?

No, but I've sought them out a little on my own. Nothing more than a basic, rudimentary understanding though.

[Fu-Pow]

Isn't strangling someone to death kind of antithetical to kung fu?

Even in a life or death situation?

I mean if their already unconcious from the lack of air, isn't that enough?

[Black Jack]

Morals can change depending on the situation you are forced to deal with.

That is the difference between the mentality of killing arts and sport arts.

Would I rather use a vascular choke to knock someone out or to continue and put them out for good?

Depends, what is the situation. Every tech has it's place.

1. A simpe push and shove fight at the local mall because somebody thought you cut in line at the movies or stared at his girlfriend to long:

A choke to control the situation would be the best choice as you are not in a do or die situaiton.

2. You come home and find a predator raping/viscously attacking your loved one: Kill the ****er with whatever you got and if that means you stangle his ass with your bare hands so he does not get up and hurt your family or another person again, so be it.

The moral choice is different for everyone, but all techs, even those that deal in maiming or death have a place in a serious persons toolbox.

[rogue]

Even though a choke rather than multiple blows to the head, may be the more a humane way to subdue an opponent, it looks real bad to the LEOs if they show up when you're putting one on.

A fun book to browse is Get Tough! by W.E. Fairbairn.

[Fu-Pow]

Hmmm......

I guess I see it like this. Kung Fu is about "self-defense", not "self-offense." The ideal in kung fu (which comes from Buddhist/Taoist philosophy) is that you must use only what is necessary to defend yourself (or loved ones). If you are in excess then you are no longer the defender, but the aggressor.

There are situations (thinking mainly of multiple attackers) where lethal force is warranted. However, that is a completely different thing than killing someone once they have already been subdued.

If you have already knocked some one unconcious to kill them by strangulation is definitely not Kung Fu. It is in excess.

It is true that in the past Kung Fu has been used in times of war, usually with lethal force. But War is an extraordinary circumstance and I highly doubt you are going to War anytime soon.

Peace

[Kristoffer]

NOT going to make any comments... :rolleyes:

[Water Dragon]

Would you be interested in getting together and swapping a few techs?

[MonkeySlap Too]

O'Neill wasn't really that good. When you break down his stuff, there are some real flaws in his teaching. There are more efficient methods out there.

Just my opinion from what I have seen.

[truewrestler]

Black Jack, can I practice killing you? My style uses neckbreaks and eyegouges. I practice my techniques fullspeed but I just can't seem to keep training partners around for very long.

[Water Dragon]

LOL

[Merryprankster]

What TW is trying to point out, in his own sweet way, is that you cannot be certain that the neck break will work because you really can't practice it.

Just for the record, a great deal of the chokes in Judo/BJJ/submission grappling are blood chokes, not windpipe chokes. In fact, if you are applying a rear-naked choke and the other person starts gurgling and what not, you don't have it in quite right. Doesn't mean it won't work, it's just that ideally, it's a pure blood choke. The good ol triangle choke is a perfect example of a blood choke.

It can take only seconds, and by that, I mean 3 to 5... and sometimes you don't even know the guy is out! :)

Lovely experience, having somebody convulse and snort all over you, while their eyes roll back in their head.

Once again, I will opine that neck breaks aren't that easy. The neck is a lot tougher than people credit it for.

That said, I think that Fairbairns stuff was pretty **** cool. I've only seen a little, and not live, but I am impressed by it's directness.

[Black Jack]

What would I expect from this group of knuckleheads.:rolleyes:

It's not like I am talking about dim mak death touches, posion hand strikes or Mr. Moody's "sit boobo sit" qi magic.

I am talking about basic mechanics of chokes, strangles and their related breathern like tracheal based attacks and their more lethal based applications.

No chi, no ki, no ramadamadingdong.

Just simple stuff that has had a bit of military R&D done on it for certain applications. Applications that really do not have a basis in the civilan world because of legal justifications but that IMHO still have merit in certain contexts.

We are not talking about those Van Dam movie neck breaks where he walks up to somebody and SNAP the bad guy falls dead without any muss of fuss.

Most of the naked rear strangle and military chokes are modified for sentry removal.

Their is a difference between a neck break where a fighter uses the force of gravity to bring both of them down with the intent of
snapping the assailants neck and a tracheal choke where the goal is to attack the windpipe or choke out the attacker by putting his adam's apple directly across the forearm.

The way I have seen and been instructed on these methods is to never attempt any choke without a bit of atemi waza being used first.

An example would be to strike the throat from behind with a wrist blow into the throat, then turn your wrist up, this would rip the chin up & sideways exposing the windpipe, now you would slam your wristbone into the exposed target.

These types of windpipe chokes when done without the very dangerous "set-up" strike will start your alarm bells ringing and bring about almost immediate shut-down.

When done with force and intent they can crush the windpipe, this reason alone is why IMHO, these types of techs should only be done with with severe caution, a training dummy is very good for these applications, as what truewrestler pointed out, it is very hard to go balls out with something that targets the throat in such a direct way.

Which will provide some obvious training implications on how far the technique can go because of the risk. Where sleeper holds are safer to do as they are created to restrict blood flow to the brain and to not crush the windpipe.

There are even reports of two handed tracheal chokes used with the police riot baton or tonfa that after the perp was subdued and thrown into their cell the windpipe would close off and they would suffocate from delayed swelling of the cartilage due to the trauma inflicted from the method, a method I do not believe police are allowed to use anymore because of the severe risks.

Carotid chokes work because you are partially cutting off blood but also because the carotids contain baroreceptors that monitor your blood pressure & adjust your heartrate to keep bad things like brain aneuryisms from occuring.

Those types of chokes trigger the baroreceptors and this causes a fall in the heart rate.

Different strokes for different folks but I am not talking about wam-bam snap your neck mam methods here. Nothing is that simple in the martial arts and there are many different way of applying these variations and their effects.

Some just may have much more lethal outcomes then others.


WaterDragon: Sounds good to me as I need the extra practice right now due to my work schedule. Lets see if we can find a time after the Holidays. You still have my e-mail?

Rogue: Some other good books to look at our Kill or be Killed by Applegate, Cold Steel by Styer, Deal the First Deadly Blow (can not remeber author), Close Combat Files by Applegate and of course anything by Fairbairn.

MonkeySlap: I am not an expert on the O'Neill system by any means though it is important to point out his combative history in reference to what he taught or in this case modified, he was a direct student of Fairbairn, a memeber of the Shanghai Police, and a solider in the "Devil Brigade" 1st Special Service Force.

I believe his methods were the ones that replaced the Biddle system for the USMC's during the Veitnam-era.

His methods are very close to Fairbairns with the expection that he added a few more kicks like the pivot kick and front snap kick as well as some more rear naked strangle stuff.

No commerical based approaches, any two lugnuts can R&D it out in the backyard with miminal equipment, miminal conditioning and a bit of aggression.

It does not have depth but I do not think that was the point in the creation of those teachings anyway.

What turned your frown upside down on what you saw?

[rogue]

You can practice neck breaks, but if I told you how the PETA folks would be upset. ;)

[Merryprankster]

Black Jack,

No argument from me pal, just hard to practice neck breaks, and pointing out that blood chokes CAN be just as quick.

Regards!

James

[MonkeySlap Too]

Frankly, O'neills stuff looked like it was made up by somebody who either A.)was never in a fight in his life, or B.) wasn't very bright.

For instance, his take down to a choke allows the enemy WAY too much freedom to counter.

Other stuff, like kicking against a club, pretty much only works if your attacker is really stupid and weak.

Frankly, I think O'neill just didn't have experience against truly skilled hand to hand fighters.

I could go on and on, but it has been YEARS since I looked at this stuff.

Other than his military 'chops', I see no difference between O'Neil and Bruce Tegner.:rolleyes:

[Black Jack]

Tegner rules man!!!!

:D

If you are in reference to the rear naked choke where he drops to his belly in the attempted strangle/neck break than I to have problems with that as well.

I have heard that the belly verison is the wrong O' Neill verison and the correct method taught and the one I have seen was just a quick drop into a deep squat and not all the way to the ground. Either way I can not vouch for everything he does as I do not know his extact specifics but I to do not like some of the other things he added like the pivot kick for fighting situations and the above mentioned belly drop choke which now seems to be associated with him.

The core "Fairbairn/Applegate" syllabus which is contained within his approach before his own "added" extras are IMHO very solid though.

Charles Nelson was a student of O'Neill and his stuff is pretty good IMHO.

Now if only I could master the ability to jump off of seven story buildings like "Iron" C. Kim. :cool:

[MonkeySlap Too]

I remember reading 'get tough' and noticing how much of it looked like really basic - devoid of 'structure' - Shuai Chiao. Which would make sense considering who those guys hung out with. Taking it for what it is - basic hand to hand for people who will really be using guns, I guess it's okay. At least it beats TKD for that purpose.

As far as military styles, I like a lot of what I see in Krav Maga - some of it even has similar applications to my Kun Tao. It won't make you Huang Fei Hung, but it looks good for citizens. (I of course, have somwe things I don't like about it, but hey, sue me.)

So I wonder when John C. Kim is going to proclainm the second ancestor of Chung Moo was a man named Krav Maga?

[Black Jack]

:)

My opinion sways to the other side of the coin.

Though now a bit fashionable due to the advertisments of a certain Canadain group and a few selected others, real WW-2 combatives is IMHO a long leap ahead of what is being taught out their today by the commercialized martial art world.

Their are very few instructors left you have a direct connection to WW-2 combatives. The rest is a self-study gathered from the legacy of this empiraclly tested data which has been left behind for us to learn from.

The Fairbairn/Sykes/Applegate/O'Neill system is based on the value that less is more. A small but complete nucleus of effective principles and techniques that are relatively easy to learn and retain, methods that apply to a wide variety of different attacks and thus close the reaction time.

A main point is if you can not teach a effective system in a short amount of time it probably will not work in the street because of its complicated structure both physical and psychological.

As for the martial history of these men, it seems to be part traditional and part real life experiance, a good founding for any teacher.

Fairbairn was a second dan Judoka from Proffessor Okada at the Kodokan as well as having studied Chinese Boxing under Master Cui Jindong. Some state that he said he found that 80% of what he learned in Chinese Boxing was wasted ritual and the rest fitting but again the quote is hard to trace as much as the specific style of Chinese Boxing, which some have rumored to be Pa Kua.

The most important experiance far beyond the traditional aspects of his past were during his Shanghai period where he had over 600 hundred first hand armed encounters in the alleys and slums of the city as a police officer.

Because of these experiances he invented "defendu" for his fellow officers and apoun being recruited to teach the British Commandos close quarter combatives he evolved the system to include what would be needed for that different enviroment.

Fairbairn and his partner Sykes who was also a highly skilled cqb instructor but seemed to have a deeper focus on the hidden weapons and firearms side of the business produced as we now know it the F-S dagger which is now the badge of the SAS.

It is interesting to note that Fairbairn's protege O'Neill was a 5th dan Judoka from the Kodokan and that he himself designed a fighting blade known as the V-2 stilleto with the nasty "skull crusher" pommel.

After the war O'Neill became a combative instrutor to the CIA and then his teachings can be seen in the (60s) USMC and in his students like Charles Nelson.

With the "pedigree & experiance" the men in this field show it is hard to not take notice of what they have done and what it can offer in today's world.

Just my thoughts and I also take the view that their are also traditional martial art teachers and systems out their who take a serious approach to modern reality training so I want that to be understood as well.

Peace.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Beleive what you want, but I would not risk my life on that stuff.