Need religious help.

[Stacey]

I'm thinking about converting. I have been a christian for most of my life. But the bible has lots of holes in it and itsn't an infallible book, turns out that Jesus wasn't half as divine as the romans made him out to be. Still a cool guy.


I reallly like Islam, especially Sufi,

then again, Judaism is what sparked both of them


Mohomad made Islam because both Judaism and Christianity stunk. I can see that he didn't approve of christianity because they made christ God, but what did he find faulty in Judaism? Why is he the Prophet of God? Because he had a vision? So did lots of people. So did John on Patmos, he had the very "Black Elk" vision.

So All you Jew....Do you still do animal sacrifice? If so, I'm in. I like the Christ of Christianity, the "God only" center of Islam, and I don't know much about Judaism. I have read "basic judaism" I like God, no I love God. In my personal endevors I read the Taoist classics religiously, but I think both are appropriate.

Can someone help me out?

I'm not Ethnically Jewish, I'm part Caucasion and Part Asian. Does this matter? Are gentiles filthy? If I convert will I be one of "god's people" or will I still be a gentile? I don't want god to like me less. I know it sounds childish, but thats from the heart.

[prana]

whatabout Aztec's ? They are still regarded as the most accurate astrologist there is....

[Stacey]

Tell me about their religion.

[Ryu]

You know Stacey, I'm not too sure you're serious with this post.
Sacrfices? Gentiles filthy? Come on.. :rolleyes:

If you are serious, I'll say this.
Christianity, like any other religion, needs to be lived and studied in a way that is mindful, intelligent, and humble.
There is nothing wrong with Christianity, but in order to be "faithful" in anything you have to be willing to take action, and depend on yourself as a "temple" that such religious strength flows through.

If you want to study other religions, and possibly go to another, than that is okay too. All of them have their strengths and weaknesses whether it be Islam, Buddhism, Christianity, or Taoism. All of them too have the potential and power to empower people and make things happen if one is willing to take action for himself. The biggest part of religion that I feel is the best benefit is the inner peace and happiness it can impart.

Good luck.

Ryu

[HopGar]

You want ot become Jewish? Do you realize how much more you're gonna have to do? I don't think you should, ismply becuase all of the new things you will have to do/not do will most likely overhwelm you unless wither youre rea ldedicated or you grew up doing them. Trust me on this one.

I apologize to those who hate it when I bring up my jewishness, but in this case it is necessary that I do in this case. Sorry again.

[CanadianBadAss]

Stacey... did they kick youu out of the christian church because they found out you're a He/She? Well... I don't think the jews will be any easier on you. Have you read any thing about toaism?

[Xebsball]

Did someone say Genitals??

Do whatever religion you feel is good for you.

[Godzilla]

Try reading a book on the Kabalah. It’s a Jewish view on Jesus. These guys (Rabbis) looked at both old and new Testament and merged them (sort of). I found it very interesting. But I also found books on Buddism, Judaism, Islam and Taoism, interesting as well.

Try it, you might like it. Or you may come to the conclusion that all religions are just stories written to explain the unexplainable. Every culture needs to have faith of some kind. Look around a pick your poison. They all lead to the same place.

I’ve never found a religious book that answered the question ‘What is the meaning of life?” better than the words from a James Taylor song.

“ The meaning of life is enjoying the passage of time.”

Perhaps he to is a prophet!

Peace,
Godzilla

[HopGar]

Um, Godzilla, hate to correct you, but Kaballah has NOTHING to do with Jesus. And it is not some kind of congolmeration of ANY new testament and old testament. Not that at all. Its EXTREMELY in-depth bible study and actually, you arentsupposed to learn it until you are at least 40.

Hope I clarified something....


and by the way, once you convert to judaism, there is no backing out.

[prana]

stacey

You must begin by playing basketball.
You just also tell everyone that the world will end on Dec 22, 2012.
You must believe death is just like the skin of the serpent.


:D

[joedoe]

Why is there no backing out?

[SanHeChuan]

dude you are wierd...
have you been hanging out with diego...

[joedoe]

In prana's defence, what he described pretty much applies to the Aztec race as far as is known. He took a bit of poetic licence with the basketball thing, but all that is right.

[prana]

Originally posted by SanHeChuan
dude you are wierd...
have you been hanging out with diego...

heheehehehe fun is good :)

[HopGar]

This is hard to explain so you'll have to forgive me for that one, but its something like once a jew always a jew. Just ask Hitler, may his name be obliterated for all time, he knew that and most jews know that as well.

[joedoe]

OK. I'll take your word for it then.

[Xebsball]

prana is our meditation/religion guy here on the forum, he is cool.
He is part of the KFO exclusive feature, hes one with the forum, man, part of the collective KFO mind...

[Aramus]

I don't know how serious anyone is? Here is my 2 cents (and more).
Religion...well
The Jews believe that Jesus was a prophet. Bahai believes that Jesus, Mohamad, and many others were all fractions of the right story or had all of it right but their followers got it wrong or partly wrong. What I've learned through my studies is that a religion is started and then fractures off into many subsets. One may or may not take dominance over the other. Some "leaders" may decide what is best for all othe sects/subsets and declare things. This happens/happened in Buddihism, Christianity (wow did it), Islam, etc. Everyone has their own ideas. Sometimes the subsequent religion doesn't even resemble the founder's ideas. Do you work deligently (do your duty, darma)? Do you feel religion? Do you do the ritualistic thing? Do you follow strict codes of conduct? Do you preach/minister/etc.? What do you want out of religion? If you want ritualistic you can find that in the Roman Catholic Church, Orthodox ______(Jewish faith, Buddism, Hindu Religion ...sorry forgot the various names, Christianity, Muslim/Isamic. etc). Do you want to feel/mystic faith (kinda wierd to say...go with it) then you can find that in _______(the same as above).
If you want to find a church/temple/sigh...go visit them and talk to the head religious person or group facilitator. Then attend a service or two and see what you like or don't like.

Believe it or not, there are still pagens, druids, witches (wiccah...wicken, sorry I'm not to good with spelling and I'm not trying to put the faith down) still practicing today. Can you find them? I know for a fact there a few of the above in Ohio. I've met them, they seem nice and everything and are sometimes more dedicated than a good number of Catholics I've met.

Well, at least I hope I have given some food for thought and haven't ticked too many people off.

peace.

[Chang Style Novice]

I'm only ethnically Jewish, not practicing, but I've attended a few services and had some long talks with a few Rabbis.

There is no animal sacrifice in modern Judaism. Gentiles are not considered filthy, although certain foods (pork, shellfish, improperly prepared meat of any kind, some others) are considered 'treyf' which means unfit.

There are many different kinds of modern Judaism, roughly broken down as Orthodox, Conservative, and Reformed. They are basically more or less stringent about clinging to tradition and the literal word of the Torah and Talmud (Rabbinical commentary and interpretation of the Torah.)

The philisophical underpinnings of Judaism depend on who is speaking, as with all religion. A good place to start to understand Jewish spiritual practice is with their holidays. The most important holidays in the Jewish Calendar take place at the New Year, and are called the High Holy Days. The first of these is Rosh Hashana, the Day of Judgement, when G_d (the Jews belief it would be profane to speak or write the name of the deity) makes His plans for who lives and dies in the next year. Later comes Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement. On this day, you must reflect on the wrongs you have committed in the previous year and pray for forgiveness from G_d. Lest you think it's all dour aceticism, let me tell you about another holiday, Purim. Purim is the Feast of Esther, and without going into too much detail, after the Rabbi reads the story of Esther to the congregants, you are supposed to get so drunk you cant tell the hero of the story from the villain. No, seriously!

http://rj.org/

The link above is to a Reform Judaism home page, with much more information. I am sure that if you can find a Temple or Synogogue nearby the Rabbi would be happy to discuss the possibility of conversion with you and give you a much better sense of what it will require.

[diego]

it'll be fine

[gfhegel21]

Why is the only option going from one religion to another? What about agnosticism? Why not develop a personal philosophy based on reason and avoid the dogma of organized religion?

You might try out Unitarian Universalism.

[shaolinboxer]

Your relationship with god is your own. If you want to join a relgion, do so only because you want to join a cultural organization...be a part of a community bound by certain laws.

But becoming "religious" does not guarantee happiness nor realization of truth.

[Budokan]

Stacey, you're too f*cking stupid to belong to any organized religion. Cults are your future, she-man. Here's what you do:

1. Shave your head and castrate yourself.
2. Change your name to "Doe" and hook up with others of your own kind.
3. Dress in running shoes and track suit and stand around in airports with a tin cup.
4. Eat only those foods that don't give shade.
5. Prepare the spiked kool-aid and get your self a purple shroud.
6. Drink the kook-aid (intentional misspelling), cover yourself with the shroud, and wait for the mother ship in the tail of the next comet.

Now that's a religion you can be proud of!

[HopGar]

Actually just so you know Chang , you aren't supposed to get stone-drunk. Yes Jesus was a prophet but a liar as well (sorry to offend all of the christains out there) so he's considered something not too short of a heretic. Ah forget, I hate these relgious dicussions so much b/c it denigrates into religion bahsing b/c this one dos this and that's bad, etc., etc., etc. So I'll shut up and only reply if someone really says something out of whack.

[Chang Style Novice]

No, you aren't supposed to get stone drunk on Purim. As I said, you are supposed to celebrate until you can't correctly express "Blessed is Mordechai, cursed is Haman." Children, pregnant women, and recovering alcoholics are excused from the drinking, as well.

The general position on Jesus that I've encountered doesn't go quite so far as to label Him a heretic, but was well summed up by one Rabbi as "What he said that was true wasn't new, and what he said that was new wasn't true." In other words, He was correct in as much as He agreed with orthodoxy and incorrect where He disagreed.

Now with all this said, I'm only Jewish enough for the ovens and not Jewish enough for the Synogogue. Spiritually, I lean towards a scientifically informed Taoist comprehension of the origin of the Universe, the role of Humanity, the nature of Virtue, Sin and Redemption.

I'd be happy to yap on at greater length about it, on the offchance that anyone gives a f@rt.

[shaolinboxer]

"I'm only Jewish enough for the ovens and not Jewish enough for the Synogogue."

LOL

Me too...how eloquent :).

[Sharky]

is this a serious question about religeon?

if so, i will engage in it. if not, i will bow out now.

the way you wrote it however made you soun dlike a ****in muppet

[David Jamieson]

One can be spiritual without the dogma and doctrine of religion.

religion is the buffet for the soul that hungers in the wasteland.
spirituality is what feeds the one who has learned to survive in the watseland.

religion can be as helpful as it is confusing and hypocritical.

transcend it and get past it's inherent duality and see things for how they really are.

treat others with respect and courtesy even if they do not reciprocate and your spirituality will remain strong and intact.

extend peace well being and happiness regardless of lack of reciprocity.

do not subjicate yourself to any personality. do not submit even if you are passive.

do not take offense at the words of a fool.

these are the simple tools that will get you through any number of lifes metaphysical and spiritual problems.

peace

[Metal Fist]

Stacey, you have to quit depriving yourself of oxygen, it's affected
your rationallity:D . I know the Bible is not infalilble, and as to Jesus's divine nature, it's all in what the individual wants to believe. All religious texts are full of holes, if you look long enough
anybody can find them, the one thing alot of people forget is that
the MAN wrote the Bible, through his interpretations of God's word to them. WHen you enter in the Human factor the waters will get muddy. I believe how I want to believe and I fell that
anybody has that right, I just wouldn't ask people how you should believe, just pick your way and go with it. Good luck.

[Nexus]

Born Jewish, Raised Jewish, Read Hebrew, Speak Hebrew.

I practice taoism in the sense of conforming to the natural way and my relationship with "God" is my own, a private one.

Much as it is said that one's own enlightenment is a personal issue, much should be your relationship with God. Keep in mind that you could replace the word God in my post with the Universe, Tao, Allah or anything else that suits your perception filters and it would be just the same.

So as said earlier in this thread, your relationship with the divine, with the universe, tao, god, atman, higher-self, etc is your private one, and although religion can lay a foundation, a direction, an interpretation, what is likely the most important thing is how you experience the world.

This is why taoism emphasises letting go of attachments, as by letting go were are more fully able to experience the tao.

Have fun with your religious searching! :)

- Nexus

[Mojo]

Stacey
What ever you do, wait until after Christmas. That way you don't lose out on all the presents.
:D

[Nexus]

Mojo has the wisdom of the buddha :)

[MonkeySlap Too]

Ultimately religions serve a few purposes:

1.) You are going to die. This bothers most people. Religions gives you nice stories to beleive so you don't worry about it so much, or feel too bad when someone else dies. Wether it is a spritual paradise (Judaism, Christianity, Zoastrianism, Bahaism etc.), a physical paradise (Islam - dig those virgins! or Norse beliefs), or reincarnation and Nirvana - (Buddhism, Hinduism, Mithraism) - it's all about getting around the fact that you are going to die. It offers solace.

2.) It brings law. By recognizeing a god or supreme being or universal principle, men seek a higher authority than themselves to impose restrictions on themselves and society so that it is more just. A lot of people bash Islam these days, but in its day, it was a significant upgrade from what the arabs had before Mohammed.

3.) It supplies community. It gives people something in common so that they function closer together as a society.

4.) It gives crazy people a justification for killing others because only 'they' have the truth. This is particularly common among middle eastern religions like Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Ironically three of the more law giving / peace giving religions are chock fulled of intolerance and murder. Particularly in the old testament and the Koran. Yikes. Read it if you don't beleive me. And through actions by all three through out history. But hey, people are people, and it is not ALWAYS the religions fault if the followers are cracked.

5.) It used to supply reasons for physical phenomena that are now explained by science. ('That thunder you hear is baldur bowling in valhalla')

I can't say I know the truth. I dig buddha and I think Jesus was revoloutionary (love your neighbor? Turn the othercheek! Holy cow, that is out there, man.) But once you pull back from what purpose religion serves, and how these purposes are consistent across cultures, you find yourself thinking of it all very logically, which will never work, because religion is not logical. It is aspirational, pulling at the mythic strings in our heart calling us to something greater.

Just figuring out what that is is up to you. Have a good time.

[Nexus]

Also I might comment that many MA practioners do their martial arts so they can express themselves physically, mentally and spiritually. Keep in mind it is often said you are what you practice, not what you think you are.

- Nexus

[Iron Monkey]

Stacey,
Religion is or should be a personal venture into your own spirit. If Christianity is not for you, that is ok. If Jedaism is not for you, that is ok too. If you find your self confused about a religion, read, study about the things that make you happy within that religion. Whether it be Moslem, Sufi, Muhammad, Jesus, or Buddha. Which ever YOU chose that makes you happy is the right one.:cool:

[Godzilla]

HopGar

>>>Um, Godzilla, hate to correct you, but Kaballah has NOTHING to do with Jesus.

Yes it does. You are striving to gain the ‘Christ Mind’ in your quest to get closer to God.

>>>And it is not some kind of congolmeration of ANY new testament and old testament. Not that at all.

Yes it is. As well as the Dohar and the Talmud.

>>>Its EXTREMELY in-depth bible study and actually, you arentsupposed to learn it until you are at least 40.

The Jewish Rabbi’s who embraced the Kaballah found it very difficult ‘converting’ Jews to the teachings of the Kaballah. Accepting the thoughts and beliefs of Jesus was one major obstacle. Another was that Kaballists call God by 10 names. (They believe in only one God but call him 10 names). This confused Jews who began to reject these ideas and leave the religion altogether. Rabbis made it mandatory you are at least 40 before starting Kaballah studies because they wanted you ‘well grounded’ and ‘well schooled’ in your Jewish studies before jumping in bed with this. Only European Jews need be 40, Middle Eastern Jews are not subject to the same requirement.

By the way, the Rabbis who spoke and wrote the Kaballah beliefs died in their 20’s and 30’s. At one time it was referred to as the Christian Cabalah.

I think this is where the Jews for Jesus craze started.

>>>Hope I clarified something....

Nope.

>>>and by the way, once you convert to judaism, there is no backing out.

I know someone who converted to Judaism to marry a Jewish man. She still celebrates Christmas.


Chang Style Novice

>>>There is no animal sacrifice in modern Judaism.

My wife is a Jewish Iraqi. Her temple sacrifices chickens on one holiday (don’t know which one and I don’t go that day!)

>>>Gentiles are not considered filthy,

No, but women are. That’s why they take a mikvah bath before their wedding. The vagina is considered sorta filthy. (But Jews hold women in higher regard than men overall.)

>>>although certain foods (pork, shellfish, improperly prepared meat of any kind, some others) are considered 'treyf' which means unfit.

Yup.

>>>"I'm only Jewish enough for the ovens and not Jewish enough for the Synogogue."

LOL!!! Me too.

[Nexus]

"Yes it does. You are striving to gain the ‘Christ Mind’ in your quest to get closer to God."

And in the kaballah where does it say "Christ Mind"? That would be your own interpretation of the idea of the God like state of mind..

Also keep in mind that the kaballah is how accurate and which translation is the right one, and how should this or that be interpreted? There are books about books about books about small portions of the kaballastic gatherings..

More important would be to keep ones focus on the truth in general then to be attached to gaining enlightenment from the words of the kaballah.

Although we could argue over the little things in miss the entire point altogether, but it is necessary to make some of these things clear, although they are in the realm of knowledge and not the realm of nothingness/void.

- Nexus

[Black Jack]

You can wake up, smell the coffee and be an atheist.

[Godzilla]

Nexus
>>>And in the kaballah where does it say "Christ Mind"? That would be your own interpretation of the idea of the God like state of mind..

It is believed Christ was ‘close to God’ as well as Moses, Allah, etc. Their ‘state of mind’ is what is needed by lower humans (us) to achieve closeness to God. It’s a state of mind. Agreed!

>>> There are books about books about books about small portions of the kaballastic gatherings..

Agreed!

More important would be to keep ones focus on the truth in general then to be attached to gaining enlightenment from the words of the kaballah.

Yup!

>>>Although we could argue over the little things in miss the entire point altogether, but it is necessary to make some of these things clear, although they are in the realm of knowledge and not the realm of nothingness/void.

I’m not arguing! You are correct! Thanks for clearing it up.

I love the Kaballist idea that each individual is responsible for the ‘goodness’ they project into the world. Basically saying, if you think a negative thought – that’s contributing to ‘evil’ – and you tell two friends and they tell two friends, etc. The opposite is also true! Projecting positive energy towards everyone (and thing) around you adds to the ‘goodness’ in the world. It’s all up to the individual, no matter he be King or Slave.

Truly,
Godzilla

PS. the only reason i read a book on the Kaballah is because i study Kung Fu. You see, I study Kung Fu so I read books on Buddism and I-Ching. And then said let me check out this here book the Koran - but it was sold out since the war started (i guess everyone wanted to see what it was all about in my town). Then i picked up this Kaballah book (there were many) and read it. It was interesting as were the other books.

[straight blast]

Stacey...an important lesson that I've learned being a Christian...
It is not about the Bible. The bible has holes in it. So does Windows 98 yet everyone still thought that it was top s**t for a while there. Being a Christian is about a relationship (YOUR relationship) with Christ. Don't worship the Bible, it's a book.
And don't be disappointed by Christians that you meet. It's often the loudest ones that have the least.
"The empty can rattles the most" as James from Metallica put it.
"I really like your Christ. I don't like your Christians" -Mahatma Ghandi.
I've been a Christian (follower of Christ-not neccesarily a church goer or church politician) for about 10 years now, and with my knowledge of Jesus I'd never go back now.
Keep the Faith. Like MA when it gets hard is when the most rewards will come.

Oh yeah, Ryu. Good post. I don't know if you're Christian or not but by what you wrote you sure could be. Peace bro.

[greyseal]

OK, my turn. More JESUS less religion. That's what I say. I think a lot of people beleive the Old Testament and New have holes, inconsistincies, whatever you want to call them. I don't perosnally beleive that this is true. Until you read the whole shebang, it may seem that way, but with a better understanding of the entire Bible, I don't see how you can logically, rationally say that there are any. I used to beleive(Was raised catholic)then didn't beleive, searched for other answers. Now, having a fuller understanding I beleive again. Buddhism never did anyone any good that I can see(I may be wrong, that wasn't an attack)and Islam itself is full of holes. If you've ever researched Islam and Mohammed, you can see what I mean. (That wasn't an attack either. In the end, everyone must choose for him or herself; it is an extrememly personal desicion, and I wish anyone who is searching the best.
Okay, Buddhism helped Chuan Fa coalesce into what it is today. I was wrong.:D

Bring it. Bring it nicely, though.

[KC Elbows]

Greyseal,

(As nicely as possible)

Buddhism never did anyone any good that I can see

-How do you define good, and what good things by that definition, has christianity or other religions done for individuals?

Islam itself is full of holes

-Please define these holes.

OK, talking about christianity not having holes, or, if you prefer, not being holey(hehehe):

What good reason is there to condemn souls to an eternity of hell? Can't god redeem them? What if they do only nice things in hell, wouldn't they then be better than any soul in heaven, where its easy to be good, as everyone else there is good? But they can't go to heaven from hell, or can they?

And what about the prechristian peoples? Doesn't it seem unfair to admit them to hell for not hearing of god, but doesn't it also seem unfair to admit them to heaven when they've never worshipped in the christian way?

There. I was nice. Do I get a cookie?:)

[Nexus]

I am done reading this thread, I can see where it is going... Been interesting though.

- Nexus

[HopGar]

Exactly Chang. I was just clarifiying. ****! I had no clue there were so many jews on this board. I'm not posting in this thread b/c I can see that ti iwll turn into a mudfight between religions.

[KC Elbows]

Nexus, Hop Gar:

Did I faux pas? I'm not sure if I contributed your perceived end of the thread, I went back and reread my post and didn't see anything untoward, but I could've missed it.

The end is nigh!!

[KC Elbows]

OK, maybe I do see it. My post wasn't really addressing the question posted, but reacting to Greyseal's post. I just felt there were some points that need to be clarified, but I see where it could very easily lead.

OK, I'll just end by stating that there's a lot of talk about loopholes and religion, and it just seems to me that things that are holy tend to be interpreted in ways that create loopholes as holiness is often beyond description, and we often see that which is holy in our own terms, and forget that it might have a different appearance to the next person.

[Wu Wei]

Well said straght blast.
I must admit, I had to hold my toungue when I first started reading this thread the other day.

-- GOD --
What straight blast says is very very important to understand christianity. People try to materialize the spiritual especially with christianity. The focus isnt on, a book, nifty sayings, rituals(although liberal abandonment of tradition is wrong). The point is in fact ones union with truth and life and peace. The God of the bible IS these things. It bothers me when people take the personification of God to mean that he is just like a person (such as greek and roman gods were) He does not possess power, he is power.
*This may sound too propagand-like but it is very important to realize these things ARE the fundamentals of Christianity.*

-- HOLES --
And as for "holes" in the bible this is easily explained.
These can be summed up in the writing styles of the bible. Many different people wrote the books of the bible. In a book so full of metaphors and parables there are bound to be inconsistencies in literal meanings of these analogies and explainations. But the message behind the words is always the same. A friend of mine once told me to view the bible as one idea. To for a moment, set aside my knowledge of all the individual stories and lessons, and to view it as a love story about Gods love for us. This really tought me a great deal about why the bible is made the way it is.

It would have been far easier to make the bible in a committee all at one time, but it wan't done that way. The bible is the perfect representation of God. It can be proven illogical and contradictory and therefor abandoned. But the point is that there is more in this universe than carnal knowledge and reason.

-- RELIGION --
The word "Religion" comes from a french word meaning mans relation with God.
It is therefore essential to know "God" before having any reason to even understand what religion even is.
There is no point to try and choose a religion. You choose what style of kung fu you learn but you can not choose your religion. The closest you can come to this is choosing a structure which includes unique ideas and practises. This is not religion. Its a hobby.

-- HAPPY? --
If someone is remotely religious they understand that there are bigger things than themselves. Therefore, you can understand that your religion is not there to please you.

If you want to be pleased:
Drink, masturbate, do crack, dont do crack, get a dog, learn to juggle, watch TV.... but that is not what "religion" is for and nobody should expect the creator of the universe to do this for them.
If there is something more important to you than your own amusement, then I say you are ready to seek religion.


Obviously this is all very important to me. I doubt anything I said was offensive but if it was I am honestly sorry.
I've learned after years of religous discussions its always a wise idea to apologise for being offensive even if you dont think you were.
:)

[Godzilla]

A Rabbi, Priest and a Muslim were doing Chin Na.
The Rabbi said “Pull my finger…..

[Leonidas]

I couldn't of said it better Wu Wei..............

[don bohrer]

Thank you for your post Wu Wei. I was chewing on this thread for a day now, but your posting is just right. A public forum is such a hard place to take a stand on ones faith. It is good to know we can confide in each other on this board. I have no problems being Christian and practicing martial arts.

[Merryprankster]

Goodness.

Big thread. Where to start?

Stace, if you are in fact serious, read some Soren Kierkegaard. If you aren't convinced by his stance then religion is NOT for you, regardless of creed. The leap of faith (or not) is the most important choice you will ever make in your life.

Wu Wei, it was a good post, and I believe your overall concept is valid given your starting assumptions, but the "easily explained," part of different writing styles is not that easy after all. The fundamental problem is that we now have to decide what is valid and what isn't valid. If, in one part, the New Testament says one thing about something and it says the opposite in another, we are still left with a contradiction in what is supposed to be the guide to truth. Perceptions and writing style aside, they cannot BOTH be right. And semantics, or circular reasoning might satisfy the consumer (so to speak), but don't make the contradictions any less contradictory.

It's a bit like the "Can God make a rock so heavy that even He can't lift it," argument. Omniscience and Omnipotence don't lend meaning to the meaningless; ie, "God can make 1+1=3." doesn't actually MEAN anything. By adulterating the result you've rendered 1+1 meaningless, and sticking "God can," in front of it doesn't lend it meaning. What you are actually saying is "God can render 1+1 MEANINGLESS." From a theological/philosophical standpoint, that's really quite a staggering statement...knocks the wind right out of you.

Water from Rocks. Virgin Birth. Resurrections. Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego staying alive while their bonds were consumed by fire. Manna from heaven.

We call them Miracles.

I use the New Testament specifically because for Christians, while the Old Testament is a guide and history, the coming of Jesus superceded the law of the old testament.

That's kinda where Soren comes in anyhow :)

gfhegel21...nice to see you here. I believe we last met on the otherground.

[kungfu cowboy]

I agree completely, MonkeyslapToo. Especially with points 1 and 2. Its all very convienient!

[PaleDragon]

if any one religion had no holes and made perfect sense...which is what i believe you are looking for...you'd have no search we'd all be practicing that religion now...if the truth was clear there would be no "belief" about it...that is why faith is the foundation...if you believe that there is a higher being that operates on a level we cannot understand...why do you seek to understand and then give up cause you can't...if you could understand, that wouldnt be much of a higher power at work. Are you looking for a set of facts...or a religion?

[kungfu cowboy]

If a religion were really true, it would contain a set of facts that describe the reality of that religion, I would think.

[PaleDragon]

theres nothing to "believe" about a set of facts ;)

[kungfu cowboy]

PaleDragon, I see your point, but I don't understand what your point is. Are you saying that religion must remain in the realm of the unknown (ooh, scary place!) to actually be a religion? Or have I been watching too much Oprah?:p

[PaleDragon]

I'm not saying there should be no fact to your religion...I am saying that no religion can be complete fact...that would be more of a science...i know we're all about enlightenment and whatnot here, but to think you know the complete truth about everything through your religion is somewhat close to a god-complex...I just wonder why people say that there are "holes" or things that don't make sense...contradictions are understandably troubling, but if you're believing in something...how can you expect to completely understand it...so to make a short story long, yes it should stay in a mystical scary place hehehe...either that or im just typing this at 3a.m.

[kungfu cowboy]

Ok, I see, but what I am trying to say is I think that if there is actually a true religion, then there must be by its very nature of being true, a reality that exists which is structured by whatever was the creative force behind that religion (God, or whatever). Maybe the religion doesn't neceassarily 100% acurately describe these facts, but there must be an ultimate nature of the reality in which it operates. (Unless whatever created it ruled out "ultimate natures of reality". In that case I give up!:( )

Oh, and science (at this point) merely describes a portion of the truth of reality. I think of science as natural (which can extend to unnatural applications of the natural knowledge...Oops! Tangent!) in its desire to know truth. Because it would be describing the reality of the Omnipotent One. I think it coincides with religion(or rather the truth of a created reality) nicely.

Check out the book "The Tao of Physics" for a much better idea of what I am mangling here.

[greyseal]

KC elbows. Yes you get a cookie. Are you a Chief's fan? Me am.
Should have never gotten rid of Gannon.

[Merryprankster]

Paledragon--

like your way of thinking dude...

To sum up:

Having true faith in something is to believe in it DESPITE the evidence against it, vice BECAUSE of the evidence for it :)

[Ryu]

Straight Blast, thank you for the compliment. :)
That made my day actually. (It's been a long one, and I'm tired out so I don't have the energy to write on this thread right now)
I will say a few things.

Straight blast, I think from a "labeling" standpoint, I would be more of a Buddhist to most people. Yet, Christ is someone with whom I keep close to as well. The philosophy of his, and the Buddha's are among the most that I study. :)

I very much disagree with religion not being logical. Buddhism to me has always been in the realm of logic. Everything in the universe has rotational energy. Everything in the universe changes, is born, lives, and dies, and is reborn. This is the cycle of life on this planet, this is the cycle of the universe itself as we know it. It's the cycle of the seasons, etc. This is what science has theorized and proven. What is NOT logical is the idea that our lives do not follow the same pattern. (i.e. death is the end completely, and there is nothing to follow) This is not the way reality works according to science. Everything is a cycle.

Anyway, that's all I'll write about that. :)
I'm tired! ;) Finals and all... gotta get some sleep.

Goodnight.

Ryu

[straight blast]

Amen, brother

[PaleDragon]

hehehe i think we agree...you're saying that there must be a true reality... i agree that a supereme being has created a true reality with a structure......my point about fact/belief is that the reality we live in is so far beyond our realm of thought or understanding that it is futile to seek a religion completely understood by men...you did blow my mind that physics thing tho hehehe ill have to check that out...thanks

[kungfu cowboy]

:)

[gfhegel21]

I thought a key idea in buddhism is not that our lives are a cycle, but that our lives are merely illusions.

[gfhegel21]

Good to see you too Merryprankster!

You live in Chantilly (I see you now list your location as DC, but I thought I remembered seeing Chantilly on your profile at one time or another)? Do you do any wargaming/RPGing out there? I used to go to a game store (forget the name) out there every week or so when I lived in DC.

I still haven't made any philosophical progress--too busy trying to finish my !@#$#%@!#%!#$ dissertation, which doesn't have anything much to do with philosophy.

All the best, and talk to you soon.

[Ryu]

Depends on which kind of "buddhism" you're talking about. There are lots of different branches.

as far as life being illusion, well that is also scientific if we look at it. Our reality basically is an "indent" on the time/space fabric. Everything that we know about our universe COULD quite possibly be an illusion because the mass of our universe is making a "dip" in the time/space continuoum so to speak. If this is the case, then the reality we know may simply be an illusion caused by this dip in the fabric of reality. We may not what true reality is because we can only experience what reality is for us.
This stuff gets a bit complicated though. :D I'm pretty sure that is one of the prevalent theories now in astronomy, but I'm no expert. :)
But to be honest, Buddhism and other eastern thought follows science strongly I think. I was told by an astronomy professor that Einstein, himself, was influenced by eastern thought.

Ryu

[Ryu]

http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/7997/spacegravity.html

Yeah, here you go. :)
Although this goes into a lot of things.

Ryu

[Merryprankster]

gf,

nope. Never lived in Chantilly. Upper Marlboro for a bit, but now DC.

Good luck on your dissertation. My mother has been ABD for about, oh, FOREVER. She gets mad when I bring it up :)

[prana]

Einstein actually theorised that here is an energy field, he called it that of compassion. If I am not mistaken, he started practising Buddhism at his later life. But I was only lil when I read his book :)

Also when Einstein theorised E=mc^2, many religious people were delighted because Buddha said that all matter appears from light.

Don't quote me here but I wonder if there is a parallel between the world of Ying and Yang, as compared to the world of massless photons splitting into that of positrons and electrons, both which have masses. Just thoughts :) I aint no physicists

[NorthernMantis]

Einstein actually theorised that here is an energy field, he called it that of compassion. If I am not mistaken, he started practising Buddhism at his later life. But I was only lil when I read his book

uhhh I thought he was Jewish?Are you sure about that?

[prana]

uhhh I thought he was Jewish?Are you sure about that? [/B]
Perhaps he was, I am unsure :) The beauty of Buddhism is that it is so scientific in approach, and encourages one of experience rather than faith, that it can be practised by all from all religions, because it really isnt one.

Anyway, thought I would add a quote I found. I lost his book when I was very young so I cant quote it.... I do apologise.

"Buddhism has the characteristics of what would be expected in the cosmic religion for the future: It trancends a personal God, avoids dogma and theology; it covers both the natural and the spiritual, and it is based on a religious sense aspiring from the experience of all things, natural and spiritual, as a meaningful unity."
—Albert Einstein

I do apologise if I am preaching, and am sorry if I cross anyones boundaries...

[straight blast]

What a horrible thought!!!! I couldn't think of anything worse than not having my personal relationship with God. My definition of hell is not a place of burning lakes and sulfur (though God knows I'd like to see a couple of people in that place) but of a total separation from a personal relationship with God.
Is that actually what you meant?
Sorry dude I'm not hacking on your religion, but for me that's...Godawful. But if it works for you, get into it :) .
Sheesh...I'm getting shivers at the very thought of it. Life would be so empty (and that word doesn't do it justice!) without it.
I gotta go pray I think.

[NorthernMantis]

What a horrible thought!!!!

I agree with that statement.

Well I didn't know that before about Einstein but now I do.No offense taken.

[Ryu]

Straight Blast, let me try to explain if I may. :)

"Transcending personal God" does not mean being away from God at all. At least not to me. To "transcend a personal god" means that the notions of what or who God is no longer exist, but become a mere fabric of God's Ultimate Reality. God defines himself in the bible as "I am what I am." And "The Alpha and Omega"
God therefore has no boundaries, no limits, no notions as to what that "force" is.
To be "seperate" from God is definitely hell. That is not what Prana meant with it. In Buddhism, if you are seperated from Dharma, then you are trapped in hell as well!
Being seperated from "God" is not at all a Buddhist thought. A buddhist thought is trying to become "one with God."
Now this might sound almost heretical at first, but let me try to explain it with some better wording.
Christ said that the Heavenly Father is within all of us. When we can touch the Holy Spirit inside of us, it brings our person in contact with "God" We touch the living God inside us. We do not BECOME gods or anything like that, but we accept the Holy Spirit within, and that becomes our greatest treasure. This is the same as what the Buddhist would feel with mindfulness and touching the living Dharma. Or touching the Mystic Law. Or God. Or whatever you want to call that which "IS WHAT HE IS" :)
To transcend a personal god means that one no longer sees God in just our mere human thoughts, but touches out to reach God in all "his" brilliance and majesty.

That's probably the closest I could describe it in Christian terms. :)
Hope that helped.

Ryu

[Narmer]

Nietzsche (1844-1900) had some really insightful things to say about religion.

For those who may have read his work without reading about him as a person... HE WAS NOT A NAZI!!!!, his theories were stolen and *******ised, and screwed with until they became the basis for nazism and had nothing to do with what he was saying. (sorry had to make that clear before anyone though I was a neo-nazi chump.)

Anyway, he says that religion is about the "will to power", and that a religion is useful for so long as it supports the will to power.

He uses the analogy of a group of birds of prey, who eat small animals (I forget exactly what, but let's call them rabbits). So the rabbits decide that the birds of prey must be evil, because they are a threat, and what is good is what is weak like the rabbits. So the Rabbits would worship a God who rewards meekness and weakness (ie. Christianity according to Nietzsche).

On the other hand the birds of prey consider their skill and strength in catching rabbits good, and think very little whatsoever about whther the rabbits are good or bad, 'cause their just tasty. So the Birds of prey would embrace a theology which supported and encouraged their strength and skill.

Perhaps the most appropriate religion is that which encourages your strengths instead of gloriying a weakness.

Personally I find it really hard to believe in any religious faith, but that's just me...

[straight blast]

That was sweet dude. I think I'll add you to my buddies list :D
I'm glad to have that clarified. I guess you just can't explain to people what a relationship with God is until they've experienced it themselves. It must be like explaining why it's really better to win & not look good than to look good and lose to an egotist Tae Bo'er.
Thank God for...er, God!

Nietzsce....

"There's nothing Nietzsce couldn't teach ya 'bout the raising of the wrist...
Socrates himself was permanently pi**ed..."

[prana]

Ryu,

I sure am glad you have such a good handle on explaining things. I can only try and it forever comes out wrong....

:) So what about the serpent then, was it stacey who asked the question originally ? I forget :(

[gfhegel21]

Ryu's position is one that I have heard before: that christianity and buddhism are compatible. I'm not sure that that's true. Moreover, I think buddhism's differences from christianity are what make it worthwhile to study.

At any rate, I'm not an expert; just wanted people to know there is a different perspective.

[Kristoffer]

god DAM:N Im hungry!! ****ing **** Have to ****ing eat something right ****ing now! ****.. This thread ****ing sucks ****.. GIVE ME FOOD *****!!!:mad: :(

[Ryu]

Thanks guys. :)

Well the religions are of course very different in terms of ritual, understanding, concept, and surface philosophy. However there are many underlining similarities between the two, and actually there are underlining similarities between lots of major religions if you get down to it. Yet they all have their appropriate cultural and conceptual differences.
If one wants to get away from the "my religion is better than yours" garbage that I feel really ruins religion, and drives people from it, you've got to be knowledable in it, and understand underlining similarities in order to converse with and have an understanding and respect for everyone else. :)

Ryu

[Stacey]

Read the book ,"Trickster makes the World"

everything about me will be explained. You will also understand Loki, Coyote, and Chinese Monkey who stole the peach of immortality.

I am, the antishaman.

[joedoe]

Nice explanation Ryu.

It is interesting that the Catholic Church has unofficially acknowledged that Christianity and Buddhism are "different but the same". On the surface they are different but the underlying concepts are very similar. So much so that some Catholic priests often attend Buddhist retreats and vice versa.