View Full Version : Help Grounding
I need some tips for how to stay grounded. Im a Hung Ga student and currently doing Tiger Kung fu. My problem is staying grounded in a stance, I can hold my horse low for a decent time so its not so much leg strength as developing my 'root'.
My sifu is constantly picking on me for this. One of our main excercises is to both stand in horse facing each other and simply try and pull your opponent towards you or push them away. Needless to say my sifu is simply wiping the floor with me. To the point where he can use one arm while i use two and still easily rip me strait out of the ground. He both weighs a lot more than me[im skinny] but is also much stronger. Unfortunatly he doesnt view this as any excuse meaning ive simply gotta find a way to stay on my feet.
I need to know if someone has any good excersies that can be done alone to develop root. Im already doing qigung and stance training but i still need more help:confused:
The other one im doing is standing in horse pushing a wall.
grrr I hate trying to ground.
Any help would be very welcome, else im scared my sifu is going to thow me into the roof one of these days:eek:
lightfoot
12-13-2001, 03:25 AM
Jon
your post disturbed me a bit. Maybe it's just the language you use because you're feeling frustrated at not not 'getting' something. If you have this problem, why is your sifu 'picking on' you instead of helping you to find solutions. I could understand it if you weren't prepared to work at it, but it's sounds like you are prepared to work. Especially since you're here asking for help.
Sorry I can't offer any advice on the rooting thing but maybe you should have a word with your sifu and explain the problem you're having, (if you've asked, he's given advice but you want a a little extra help then ignore all the above, just me talking bollocks again)
Thats part of the problem...
He's always giving me advice:( To the point where im starting to feel like he is getting fustrated with me.
Doesnt help most of the other students are twise my size pysicaly either.
He has given me pleanty of chi-gung and even some pure external excercises but i just dont seem to be making headway.
This is also partly me being impatient as im getting the feeling its mainly this which is keeping me from advancing.
Anyway thanks for the help.
Marshdrifter
12-13-2001, 06:59 AM
Ok, I'm a Wing Chun guy and while I've seen some Hung Ga, I
know very little about it, so some of what I'm about to say
may seem inappropriate for your style.
Originally posted by jon
I need some tips for how to stay grounded. Im a Hung Ga student and currently doing Tiger Kung fu. My problem is staying grounded in a stance, I can hold my horse low for a decent time so its not so much leg strength as developing my 'root'.
My sifu is constantly picking on me for this. One of our main excercises is to both stand in horse facing each other and simply try and pull your opponent towards you or push them away. Needless to say my sifu is simply wiping the floor with me. To the point where he can use one arm while i use two and still easily rip me strait out of the ground. He both weighs a lot more than me[im skinny] but is also much stronger. Unfortunatly he doesnt view this as any excuse meaning ive simply gotta find a way to stay on my feet.
It's true that having less mass means you'll be easier to move
than someone with more mass. That said, you should be able
ground well enough to at least present a challenge.
A couple of thoughts come to mind:
1) Stay relaxed and sink into the ground. By "sink," I don't mean
to go all slack and floppy. It's hard for me to explain as I'm just
beginning to really feel it myself. It's best described as it feels like
your tan tien is just sinking towards the ground. Don't tense the
legs. Tensing will keep you from sinking well and you'll sort of
rock back and forth on the groundsurface.
2) I don't know your drill, but are you allowed to absorb some
energy by turning the hips a little bit or adding some give in your
arms? I'm a smaller guy as well and I find this helps me in some
drills immensely.
I need to know if someone has any good excersies that can be done alone to develop root. Im already doing qigung and stance training but i still need more help:confused:
The other one im doing is standing in horse pushing a wall.
This is a good drill. This helped me a lot. I like this drill.
grrr I hate trying to ground.
That's a bad attitude to have. If you dread doing the drill, or even
something such as grounding, you're going to be apprehensive
while doing it and will then tense up and do worse. Have fun with
it. Get the attitude that it's a fun time and it really doesn't matter
whether you get it (at least this time, eventually you'll have to
get it). If it doesn't work, try to think critically about why that is
and try again.
I hope some of this helps.
sifus always going to push you to you own limits . don't think he is frustated with you . i think you need talk with him . because when he started he was the guy that hitting the floor . so , don't feel frustated . that can disturb you trainning .
about sei ping ma i can tell you that for my view that you can make sei ping ma only trying to spend the most time in the stance . you get to make a very low horse stance with the knees in level with you tail . make this every day and try to spend more minutes every day , remember put your palms open to the front .
and remember you train for you . no for you sifu .
lightfoot
12-13-2001, 07:48 AM
I think marshdrifter made a good point. you could be trying too hard. Trying too hard makes you tense, then you fail because you're so tense. The failure makes you try even harder, .more tension etc
That's what they tell me down the impotence clinic anyway!
don't worry too much about results, do the drills and exercises you enjoy. it'll come, eventually, (also what they tell me down the clinic)
Ego_Extrodinaire
12-13-2001, 07:55 AM
Jon,
As far as i know cats (even big cats) always land on their feet. Perhaps you should leave and do an activity that is less physically demanding.
Your sifu can look for a new sucker to push over.
Providing sexual favors for senior students may enlighten you with tips on how to bend over without falling! Just some thoughts - you did ask for advice.
Jon,
Relaxing in horse will help you stay grounded. Your body id 90% water (or something like that) When you tense up, the water distributes throughout, when you relax, the water sinks to the most bottomest parts of the body. Use this to your advantage and relax.
Another excercise tha you can do is, show up early to class and stand in front of the kicking bag(80-110LB bag that hangs) stand in horse and swing this bag back and forth, way and towards you.
Use your hands to stop the bag from crashing into your jewels but let it hit hard enough to move you. Concentrate on rooting and overtime this will help you grow roots.
Hope this helps,
Good Luck,
Shaolin36
CLOUD ONE
12-13-2001, 04:57 PM
hi just wondering what you meant by holding your horse stance for a decent time?
how decent is it?
5mins or 1 hour or 4 hours?
Been some great advice. I think the problem as stated may actualy be my state of mind. Thinking back i do get both tence and fustrated. Im possibly cheating myself by trying to use to much strength.
Decent horse....
lol i really didnt want to get tooooooooo specific as what some people view as a good stance others would view as unhealthy.
10-15 minutes in flush stance is about my max. Fighting hight I can hold it for much longer. I dare say i could get my horse for longer which would help as well.
Arg i guess these things just take time. Rome wasnt built in a day.
Thanks again for everyones advice:D
CLOUD ONE
12-14-2001, 02:37 AM
Do you not push yourself?
To develop the horse takes time. Say you are on 10-15 mins max,
why not push yourself to 20-25mins? How long can your teacher do this simple excersise for? Just think if he has a bigger build how much more weight is on his legs?
Just an observation that M.A of this day and age tend to do less stance work than the previous generation. Me included!
IMHO without you pushing youreslf everytime we train,we cannot grow bodily, mentally or spiritually.
Cloudy - I can't believe you've said something to help someone. First Sui-fuw, now you...What is this world coming too.:eek:
Cloudy, if you don't mind me asking...How long can you hold your sai ping ma? I working on an hour right now, but I can rock sai ping for a good 45 mins. It's taken me some time to get here though.
Anyway I still have the rest of life to get this stuff down.
"Just an observation that M.A of this day and age tend to do less stance work than the previous generation" - It's true! Sigung would say that your kung fu is only as good as your horse, so I try to my best to focus on a lot of stance work.
Sui - How's it hangin? :D
Later fellas!
buby
CLOUD ONE
12-14-2001, 07:12 AM
Not one disrespectful remark- Sifu Gary must be good.
sorry I beleive you can only help yourself no one else.
Hey you must be proud of yourself for 'sai ping ma for an hour'
How long can your sifu do it?
Have you crossed hands with F.t yet?
Cloudy - "Not one disrespectful remark- Sifu Gary must be good." - He is! Actually Cloud I have nothing against you and mean no disrespect to you or anyone else on these forums. Like I said before, we all have done our share of trolling.
"sorry I beleive you can only help yourself no one else." - Your right.
"Hey you must be proud of yourself for 'sai ping ma for an hour'" - Na..Not really!
"How long can your sifu do it?" - I don't know! Ask his girl.:D Seriously, I've never asked.
"Have you crossed hands with F.t yet?" - Nope!
I take it you don't want to answer my question...Cool, I'll respect your privacy.
Anyway Take easy!
buby
fiercest tiger
12-14-2001, 03:41 PM
Yo Buby,
The hung gar sei ping ma is different to ours, the weight is taken on the thighs in ours and our knee's dont pull out and sit as low.
all the same 45 minutes is good, keep it up! :D next grading you have to do 1 hr horse as part of that level...ouch baby!
jon,
hi mate! are you sure your sifu isnt using leverage and sensitivity to move you, controlling your centerline? have you learnt anything about centerline that you can counter his push? because its not strength its leverage, also look at the off balance points of his stance!
all the best:)
bean curd
12-14-2001, 04:27 PM
jon,
i go with fierce tiger look at your balance. not to change the concepts to far, but to sit on seipingma for any amount of time is good, but it depends on what you are looking for in the sitting.
just because someone can sit, doesn't mean they are strong or rooting, or they understand connection and transition. in hung gar like all styles there is jung ding or equlibrium. it is the centre point to your balance from lateral to vertical.
your sifu has to show you this.
what i can suggest is this. when you sit to play the push/pull senario you have described. don't worry about what is going on outside, what i mean by this is don't concentrate on what he is doing or what you are doing, you have been doing it long enough to see what is going on.
what you need to do now is FEEL why your body is moving the way it is. to feel is to UNDERSTAND. when he pulls does the weight of your body go to the toes, does your breath rise because you are concerned he is taking you off balance. does fear of failing come into it, distracting you from jung ding.
the bottom line of this is you are lighter and weight is important to how you fight, move etc. when in a static position and doing this type of exercise so are at an advantage while others at a disadvantage, because of your weight it sounds like you are at the disadvangtage.
what you need to realise also is what you feel within yourself is satisfactory for your own success, e.g. it took only one minute to loose balance so i'll try to make it now one mnute and ten seconds.
small steps bring results far better.
hope this helped
F.T
Im pretty sure he is using quite a lot of sensitivity. His push hands and sticking hands are excerlent and hence tend to come though his other training to. He has explained centreline theory to me im just not applying it well to horse stance.
I think it really has to do with my relaxation, the more I think about this the more sence it starts to make.
I think i really need to soften up so my body becomes like a big lump on the ground. At the moment im going rigid witch im guessing is making my upper body way to easy to off balance.
Cloud One.
In answer to your question, certainly i push myself. If i didnt i wouldnt be posting here on my problems as i wouldnt care enough to fix them. I will certainly get my stance longer but these things take time :(
Ive also gotten back into training hard over the last month after a few months off while my instructor went overseas, so gimmi a little time;)
As for people not training as hard as they used to...
Im sure Lum Jo didnt train as hard as Lam Sai Wing
Im sure Lam wasnt trained as hard as Wong Fai Hung.
Whats important is different for different people. Im not as concerned with killing on every strike as i am with simply keeping the art alive for the future generations. That doesnt mean i dont want my movements to have meaning or be powerfull, just i dont expect to have the same level of power as our ancestors did.
You should always push yourself to get better, but you have to first decide what exactly your trying to improve.
fiercest tiger
12-14-2001, 04:35 PM
If you understand the folding theory as he pushes your hand, be soft/yau and learn to fold, roll, and press, follow...its hard isnt it? your sifu sounds like a knowledgable man, keep training and you will find the answers.
have a great weekend:D
Ego_Extrodinaire
12-16-2001, 03:36 AM
Hey Jon,
Are you sure your sifu is not a con. It's hard to imagine that the whole training session invoves you standing in a horsie stance while someone pushes you over!
Ask your sifu to demonstrate the use of a simple horse stance in combat. See if he can at least do that before subjecting yourself to further humiliation.
FT, Jon might need to learn cantonese before he can communicate with sifu. After all its southern style don't you think!
Hi nice to see you on here again:D
Why not just come down ill show you???
Yes, i usualy do spend all class doing stances its all ive learnt after five years:(
I cant touch my sifu no matter what stance he is in... Guess im just a poor student and he is a bad teacher.
Also you would never guess... With a name like Joseph Awad he IS NOT EVEN CHINESE:rolleyes: :mad: :rolleyes:
Yet he still has the nerve to have me comming there for years.
On a SERIOUS note...
The first thing i did when i met my sifu was be really sceptical.
I had several years of Tae Kwon Do and thought i was new what i was talking about.
He happily told I would have to start from the bottom of the system like everyone else.
Well I thought this cant stand...
I asked him to demonstate his self defence. He simply replied "ok use any technique or combo you like".
I put up a defence and he just calmly stood there with his hands at his sides.
I tryed to feign a right cross and jabbed hard and fast with my left, he moved casualy to the side and struck the inside of my left elbow joint with a leopard fist. A bolt of pain shot down my arm from my joint right down to my fist. My previously clenched hand went so numb i couldnt feel my fingers let alone clench a fist.
Ive been a student ever since...
:cool:
fiercest tiger
12-16-2001, 02:42 PM
Do you think because i had a chinese sifu that my kung fu would be better?
im happy i did learn from my sifu but all the same i had to learn cantonese well portions to understand what i was learning plus i could be wrong with cantonese!! i would have learnt from a white,black,yellow,red sifu if he knew his sh!t regardless.
who is or was your sifu..?
Ego_Extrodinaire
12-17-2001, 02:47 AM
Sleepytiger,
should have tried the left feign and jab right, that gets 'em everytime. Can't believe you quite just because you copped a hit on the elbow!
On a serious note, your sifu is probably more skillful than you, but still one has to question if he's training you seriously. Put it this way, you probably won't be able to touch him if you sit on the horse for the next 5 years.
Has he at any stage articulated the training program to you? what do the raw beginners do - same thing as you or something more basic? What do more senior students do?
FT,
Of course race doesn't matter. Specise doesn't matter. what better way to learn tiger fist than from a tiger. FT you of all person should know that! GRRRRRRRR
Ego you post almost sounds as if you were generaly interested:eek:
Fine ill tell you, but you seem to have problems accepting simple fact.
"On a serious note, your sifu is probably more skillful than you, but still one has to question if he's training you seriously. Put it this way, you probably won't be able to touch him if you sit on the horse for the next 5 years."
Ive come a LONG way in 5 years from that day i stupidly tried to take a shot at him. Whilst i cant near match his skills i can certainly defend myself. He has also taught me a lot in that time. Possibly more than he really should have...
As for not touching him in another 5 years... Problem is he isnt going to sit still waiting for me, do you not think he will be greatly improved in 5 years as well? Of course my technique will be much stronger but so will his.
Horse training is the foundation of good skill in my style. Practice there is no other way! 5 years 10-50 makes no difference.
" Has he at any stage articulated the training program to you? what do the raw beginners do - same thing as you or something more basic? What do more senior students do? "
What articulated training program? Im learning the system, not having it bent around to suit my needs. If i wanted to do that i could have done it and left already. Not all students are the same but the ones who have been there longer learn the style properly, no short cuts. You must be able to use what you learn, no one does fairy fists in my style. You learn crane you must be able to hit hard with the crane fist and do good damage.
Beguinners learn basic defence and the various stances.
Senior students do form.
Ego_Extrodinaire
12-17-2001, 03:21 AM
Sleepytiger,
This is a matter of opinion, but a program should be tailored to suit the needs of a practitioner. Not all practitioners are built th same way physically, hight, width, speed etc. A good sifu should recognise this and assist the student in meeting his or her objective.
The learning process would be slowed down unnecessarily if the student is made to suite the program.
Your right it depends on your objectives. My ulitimate aim is to learn the system in its entirety though, so mine may be a little different.
After a bit of training it becomes pretty obvious what suits you... These things should be focussed on in your own time.
Your sifu is there to show you the path not walk it for you.
Some students suit certain aspects of a style but it should be there own responsibility to further that, not there sifu's.
This of course depends on the student, if all the student wants is good health and basic defence then so be it.
Ego_Extrodinaire
12-20-2001, 06:36 AM
Sleepytiger,
I disagree. It's much more useful in understanding the entire stytem that learning it as such.
You pay the sifu, shouldn't the sifu structure the material such that its relevant to the student or should he teach something because it pleases him. If its the latter, itys time to change schools!
As to finance...
I pay what i can afford, if im broke i dont pay...
My sifu has never been money hungry and actualy makes a loss due to payment of the hall and such a small class.
That said i happily do chores for him sometimes and am setting up a webpage for him.
He dedicates a lot of time to his students and asks next to nothing of them in return. All of us go out of our way to do anything for him that we can.
Ego_Extrodinaire
12-21-2001, 03:38 AM
Sleepytiger
"As to finance... i happily do chores for him....All of us go out of our way to do anything for him that we can."
You seem to be his b!tch. prepared to please him in every which way you can.
If that is what you think Ego then so be it, i dont have either the time or the want to argue with you.
I have to ask though...
"You seem to be his b!tch. prepared to please him in every which way you can."
Ego your freaking me out, your following me around between my posts and now start acting jelous about my relationship with my sifu, is this a crush?
If so, i hate to break this to you but im strait as a rake!
Not that im not flatered mind you, just i prefer the company of interesting girls.
Dont worry im sure you will find someone who will want you for who you are... Just i personaly dont, im sorry to hurt your feelings like this:(
Anyway Ego i wish you the very best of luck finding someone, your obviously in need of a bit confidence.
Ego_Extrodinaire
12-21-2001, 02:52 PM
Sleepytiger,
It is interesting to read this from you - when you have been volunterring all sortsod personal information, not to mention an invite to you kwoon eventhough i'm in the US. Just some thoughts as a point of observation.
Howlong have you been achore person for sifu?
"volunterring all sortsod personal information"
Actualy only my first name which is useless to you, plus my instructors name and class details. If you call that personal, fair enough. I just call it being honest and proving im comming from somewhere real.
"not to mention an invite to you kwoon eventhough i'm in the US."
Im sorry, I simply dont belive your in the US. I DO belive thats you in the site mentioned on the other thread. Looking around the site, the writing style is exactly the same and too many personal details fit, like the weelchair issue. Ive also heard this from several different people now on this board.
So yes, considering imo your in Australia you also get an invite to my kwoon. If only so i can have the pleasure of rubbing your face in exactly what one of us farmer kung fu people do.
"Howlong have you been achore person for sifu?"
This is really confusing, exactly what do you think is wrong with my doing chores for my sifu? Especialy when he reguarly gives me free private lessons and is almost like a second father to me?
If your jelous of my relationship with my sifu then dont be... Its just a teacher student thing, nothing to get envious over.
Never mind Ego as i say im sure you will find someone, then again with so much love for yourself how will you give any to someone else?
Good luck Ego in your search for acceptance:D
Ego_Extrodinaire
12-26-2001, 08:00 PM
Oh don't give me this second father thing. This is the product to low class chop suey kung fu flick. As for the teacher student relationship thing, please read your post and I'm sure its gotten further than that.... second father!
And for the rest of it, you can believe what ever you like! Your face is probably too full of the farmer stuff to see clearly.
oooo im sawwry did i make you jelous?
Really dont worry, i told you its JUST KUNG FU....
I know its hard for you to understand a relationship between two adults of the same sex thats NOT sexual but try... for me?
Merry Christmas Ego and Happy new years eve...
Maybe you will get your wish, and meet a big strong man to hold you and tell you what you want to hear.:D
Thank you kindly for you advice, i definately think my problem has a lot to do with relaxing. Plus simply learning to hold my stance for longer:(
The drilling you discribe for stances sounds actualy quite similar to my current training;)
Can I ask what the difference is between Hungquan and Canton Hung Ga, provided there are any?
Circulation of energy in stance is also something im working on i sometimes find my legs cramp from not doing so. I have a lot to learn but im on my way and couldnt be happier for that thought:D
Thanks to everyone who has helped out with my little grounding problem the advice has been great.
Dispite a little interlude from my rather obnoxious troll friend Ego.
Happy new year and thanks to all:D
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