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SUGREF
12-13-2001, 07:51 AM
I know this sort of topic keeps coming up again and again - please do forgive me - so I shall keep it as concise as possible:

Does a lot of sex deplete levels of your body's energy, or chi?

If so, what can be done to remedy it? More exercise, chi gong, altered diet?


Anybody?

Nexus
12-13-2001, 11:44 AM
You can have as much sex as you'd like, it's the ejaculation that causes you to lose jing/chi/energy etc. That is the purpose of the Taoist sex practices, as well as just having control over the urge/need to ejaculate during sex.

But, for women orgasms are not a bad thing for energy, and in fact can enhance the jing in the body.

- Nexus

No_Know
12-13-2001, 01:35 PM
Besides the orgasmic occurance being a drain on several systems of the body, some use the male's sperm to con vert to Ch'i. Any loss of sperm could set back a trainee's practice back by one hundred days.

red5angel
12-13-2001, 02:21 PM
doing my research on Qi, I have come across some numbers that may be of interest to you No_know... First of all, to not have sex is optimal for Qi building as semen is considered to be original Qi, of which you only get so much and each time you loose it you canot gain it back. Sex also drains Qi from you that you have built up, more specifically in the legs.
Now, what I have seen has been pretty consistant, they say if you must partake of sex, then you are supposed to wait roughly 3 days after your Qi excescises before having sex, and also, do not have sex three days before.
My wife would kill me if I tried this!

shaolinboxer
12-13-2001, 02:41 PM
The concept of conserving chi makes good sense for the short term, such as prepping for a fight, but in reality I don't think sex drains chi or jing or whatever you want to call it on a permanent basis. It's rejuvinating properties can often restore a healthy chemical balance, increase confidence, relax the mind, and uplift the spirit.

How does that deplete you of chi?

Starchaser107
12-13-2001, 02:51 PM
Id really like to know if theres a way to regain chi afterwards
that would be really helpful... by the way it sucks that jing can increase but chi goes away by this, that is just WRONG OK
as men, we need to find ways of getting back our beloved chi , whilst we partake in the horizontal dance. Besides the Taoist way,
cause not to be lude but ejaculation feels good. If there is any way to regain it, and ive been asking this for years now , and nobody seems to know, I and men all over the World would be eternally grateful. Sometime ago I was referred to this book called the multi orgasmic man by mantak chia i think , a dude named sloper(who used to post here) said i should check it out, but i havent seen it , and Im also guessing this has to do with either the taoist or the tantric way of internal orgasm or sustaining , and i dunno if thats what i need, Id like to know if there is a specific way for the body to produce more sperm to replace whats been depleted through sex?
sort of like having your cake and eating it too.

Nexus
12-13-2001, 04:31 PM
Westerners view an enhanced sex life as meaning more intense ejaculationary orgasms. The Taoists believed a better sex life involved causing the orgasm to instead course through the entire body, so rather then ejaculating, the entire body experiences the orgasm as energy courses through it. That is why they are coined the terms 'The Taoist Sex Practices' and not the 'Not Having Orgasm Practices'. Ejaculation may feel good, but there are better feelings, and ones that last much longer then 5-10 seconds. Beyond that, the full body orgasms can be achieved multiple times during intercourse, not to say that you are unable to ejaculate multiple times, many men are.

As I have mentioned in another thread and will not go into detail here, you can also learn to strengthen your prostate muscle through certain variations of exercises which will allow you to tighten it on the point of orgasm. Sometimes tightening this muscle while breathing to the dantien can generate a very good feeling all throughout the body without causing ejaculation.

Basically if you are serious about your kungfu practices and about your sex life then you need to invest some serious time&energy&commitment into finding something that works for you and your partner. Mind you, none of this can be done easily solo, besides the prostate exercises.

Good Luck..

- Nexus

No_Know
12-13-2001, 08:20 PM
Men don't know about Ch'i. At least some Taoists, at least some Kung-Fu practitioners and at least some of the Chinese know about Ch'i.~ Sperm is NOT Ch'i and don't try to interchange them again, please. Sperm Can Be Converted to Ch'i. Having sperm in the testicle(s) does not give you Ch'i.~

Ejaculation does not mean orgasm is limited to that area. Orgasms are in varying degrees and even different locations. These usually only occure during ejaculation for males. So, Taoists (practicing to gain energ(ies)y from sexual practice, theoretically, convert orgasmic energies to Ch'i which would indicate that they don't actually have orgasms during those encounters.

O.K. let's try to get it straight this time: Ch'i is not sperm. Ejaculation is not orgasm.

Thank you...some such...

prana
12-13-2001, 09:49 PM
:rolleyes: :D ;) :cool: :confused: :p ;) :cool:

no interesting contribution from me, just becareful, that is all.

KC Elbows
12-14-2001, 10:55 AM
In my experience, the part of ejaculation that is pleasurable is independent of the act of ejaculation, its just that most men experience it only when ejaculating. If one trains to make the two independent, then one can repeatedly get all the pleasure, but without the physical sense of loss that is the other half of ejaculation. So I agree, orgasm and ejaculation are two entirely different things, its just that few experience them separately.

Repulsive Monkey
12-19-2001, 05:43 AM
From a Chinese Medicine point of view Males lose Jing every single time they lose Sperm due to depleting Jing from their Kidneys. And just to correct you Shaolin Boxer, Men and Women certainly do have a finite amount of Jing in their bodies so by losing it one does manage to make more thus Jing depletion on a grand scale thorugh having sex will definitely weaken the body. FACT!!. This is the basic idea from Chinese Medicine. Taoist practices are mainly based on sperm retention, as when it is lost through ejaculation one depletes massive amounts of Jing. Taoist practices furhter this by re-diverting the Ejaculatory energy up to their heads to nourish the brain.

TaoBoy
03-11-2002, 11:51 PM
Jing and Qi are not the same thing.
Men lose Jing (essence) when ejaculating.
Women do not lose Jing during sex.
Actually women can benefit from the male Jing (if they know how).
It not all good news for the girls though as Jing is lost via menstruation.

Excessive ejaculation is bad news - not necessarily excessive sex. Although, you know what they say about too much of a good thing.

;)

Nexus
03-12-2002, 10:41 PM
As a followup and promised words, as this has been brought back from the grave I will mention circulation as being the foundation of ones sexual meditation practices.

The lower heavenly circle meditation can be applied during sex, redirecting energy from the up the spine and down the front of the body. Also the point below the nose can be pressed to reduce the urge to ejaculate. A book giving fair descriptions of heavenly circle meditation is Master Jou Tsung-Hwa book "The Dao of Meditation".

As for those interested in male cultivation, more to follow this post as I sift through appropriate texts. Take care and enjoy life everyone!

- Nexus

TaoBoy
03-12-2002, 10:52 PM
Just quickly...

Mantak Chia's books on this subject are pretty good:

- The multi-orgasmic man
- Healing Love Through the tao
- Taoist Secrets of Love

Visit Universal Tao (http://www.universal-tao.com/).

But - as always - practice with care. Books are only references.

harry_the_monk
03-13-2002, 01:40 AM
I'm not sure how to look the girl in the eye behind the desk in the bookshop and ask for a copy of The multi-orgasmic man:D
:o
Having been celibate for a year so far, not sure that I need it now.
:p

But then I guess it could be fun;)

Nexus
03-13-2002, 11:32 PM
Things to focus on and take seriously as the foundation for improving ones inner landscape for Male Sexual/Spiritual/Energetic Cultivation:

1. Semen Retention
2. Chi Cultivation
3. Chi Circulation (Lesser heavenly circle)
4. The practice of tightening and releasing the wei yin point (near the anus)during meditation.
5. Chi kung (Moving meditation - ie. T'ai Chi, Standing Post)

These 5 practices are key if one is to develop the internal landscape as well as improving the sex life. The lesser heavenly circle meditation during sex involves taking the chi from the Hui(wei) yin point up the spine, over the top of the head, down the front of the face, connecting the energy by placing the tongue at the roof of the mouth, and continuing all the way back down the front, out to the tip of the p-e-n-i-s, down the base o f the p-e-n-i-s and returning to the Hui(wei) yin point all in a single inhale => exhale. This will circulate the orgasm throughout the body, not just confining it to the area of the genitals.

If ejaculation feels near, you can also place sword fingers (two fingers together) on the Hui(wei) yin point near the anus, not pressing down too hard and continuing with the intention of circulating the energy. This practice will retain & build up jing in the body.

So if you take a look at western science, it has come accross the idea of kegels (flexing and releasing of the pc muscle) which is only focussed on one of the many points which the taoists use to circulate the energy.

So there it is in the most basic terms I can present it in. I'll scan a few papers that detail lesser heavenly circle meditation and post links in the next few days.

- Nexus

Nexus
03-14-2002, 10:07 PM
As an additional resource, I wanted to recommend reading the following:

Taoist Secrets of Love: Cultivating Male Sexual Energy
Mantak Chia & Michael Winn

The book will give a fairly accurate foundation for the practice and details involved as well as answering many of the commonly asked questions regarding such.

Take care,

- Nexus

PlasticSquirrel
03-15-2002, 10:39 PM
thank you for the tips, nexus. i have been wondering about sword fingers, xiao zhou tian, and how everything relates together on the issue of sex. your posts clued me in to just about everything i ever wanted to know about it.

thank you again :)

Nexus
03-18-2002, 01:20 PM
Even better then sword fingers would be the three longest fingers on the hand, two for pressing and one for holding.

The downfall to this method of semen retention is the body still loses 40-60% of the male sexual energy although retains the semen. The best methods are those through actual energetic mental control of the sexual energy in the body through practice of microcosmic orbit meditation and Drawing the Nectar up to the Golden Flower. The foundation of these practices are drawing out the true love and sexual energy that we are all capable of expressing within ourselves or with a partner. A man can do these practices on his own using the yin and yang poles within his own body or can practice them with a partner after he has mastered(become comfortable) with them on his own due to the often overwhelming feeling that accompanies the presence and heat of a woman.

- Nexus

fa_jing
03-18-2002, 02:34 PM
So does anyone know anything about Internal Alchemy? Converting the Jing to Chi? Is is really possible to sublimate your sperm? I've noticed increased Chi when going for long periods without ejac, but don't know the method for directly converting other than the natural process which does not require attention.

-FJ

Nexus
03-18-2002, 08:14 PM
As mentioned in the above post, Drawing the Nectar to the Golden flower is drawing the sexual (sperm) energy to the brain, converting the ching to chi. You should really take a look at the book I recommended by Mantak Chia, or some of his other works perhaps.

If you start doing microcosmic orbit meditation in conjunction with chi kung or t'ai chi cultivation of energy, it will make the male sexual cultivation practices much easier when you begin to do them.

As for the effects of increased energy when prolonged periods of non-ejaculation are experienced, that is exactly the case. These methods are used to distribute the orgasm throughout the entire body, removing the attachment to having the orgasm secluded only to the genetal area via semen ejaculation. Hence you are able to experience multiple and prolonged orgasms and even self-induced orgasm without the use of a partner. This occurs through the subtle energies of the yin and yang poles both existing within the body.

One thing though that I haven't mentioned is that one can release the attachment to semen ejaculation, just to re-attach oneself with this newfound orgasmic experience. By doing so they will also limit their growth as even these more advanced taoist techniques are limitless in their potential.

From the yin and yang poles in the body, to the experience of the subtle yin energies of a woman in perfect harmony with the yang energies of a man, to the experience of the subtle energies of heaven and earth, and at the height of all experience the nothingness of the Tao, or as the Ancient Taoists called it 'Immortality.'

By broadening your awareness on these matters you open new doors to self-cultivation and soon find that what once seemed impossible, becoming practical and possible.

- Nexus

tomcat
03-28-2002, 08:07 PM
Hi Sugaref,
I was taught that you should not have sex for 12 hrs. before or after meditation or qigong.
As far as restoring sexual energy modern medicine has come up with some aids! Some may consider this cheating but try Dr. Golinsky's andro-edge,found in health food stores, it increases testosterone levels (legally) and can help restore sexual energy,
which can then be coverted to chi through the practices already spoken of in this thread.

fa_jing
03-29-2002, 01:39 PM
Actually, I have read some books, I'm wondering about what Chia describes as "Internal Alchemy", sounds like maybe you create enough heat in your lower dan tien to sublimate the sperm and convert it to Chi, it didn't occur in the head area but more in the abdomen area. Anyone know about this?

-FJ

Nexus
03-29-2002, 02:01 PM
Internal alchemy is a name for the process. It's foundation is cultivation and reverse breathing. The idea of having the reverse breathing and contractions of the anus/perenium is that when you inhale the chi clings to the spine. These processes are quite physical and are obvious, whereas many processes of these types are simply mind games where you trick yourself into thinking you are actually doing something with the use of visualization and so on so forth. So the development is cultivating the chi, "Hung Ha" breathing (a type of reverse breathing meditation), microcosmic orbit circulation (circulation of chi), and drawing the nectar to the golden flower (The big draw - Drawing the jing to the brain, converting it to higher levels of refined energy ie. chi).

Everyone of these practices requires a teacher unless the student is incredibly adept and even then it would be advised to still use a teacher for reference. This is due to the fact that they have gone through the process and can save you the trouble of making common errors or simply wasting time in unnecessary practices that yield little or no obvious benefits.

At the spring festival here in Alaska this year there will be a Seminar on Hung Ha Qi Gong, Taught by Micheal Demonlina. If you are in the area, stop on by.

- Nexus

fa_jing
03-29-2002, 02:55 PM
Not in the area, but since you live in Alaska, do you mind telling me if your Chi-gong practice has improved your resistance to the cold? 'Cause I found that when I was "retaining," it seemed to have that effect in me, among other effects. Also one hears many stories of Chi-Gong masters who walk about in Northern China or in the mountains with nothing more than a robe, sometimes travelling in bare feet.
Just curious.
-FJ

Nexus
03-29-2002, 05:29 PM
Well.. my resistance to the cold has always been pretty high considering I grew up. Since I began my chi gong though and retaining I definetely noticed a difference in the way the cold feels though.

I used to feel the cold inside my body, like it was inside of my bones, but now I just feel the cold on the surface of my skin. I would say that is the most noticable difference, I can walk outside in the cold without that bitter cold inside of my body which makes you jitter your teeth and shake.

The chi kung has also helped with being able to warm the body up with the intention of the mind, stirring up that energy and providing some additional heat on those colder days.

- Nexus

dfedorko@mindspring.com
04-01-2002, 08:32 PM
For what it's worth - Let's take a common sense approach to this question and leave the Taoists/training methods alone for one minute. Now ask yourself(selves) this question, "Do I want to be the best Martial Artist I can be or worry about sex"? Understand that we are human and have the urge but if you/we want to be good martial artists why not have sex in moderation? What is wrong with that concept? Tell your wife/girlfriend what you want to achieve in the martial arts and that you can't ejaculate all the time because your training is important to you. It's your life's work - it's religious to you. Same thing with drugs and alcohol. Do you want to be caught in an alley late at nite with a buzz from drugs/booze and have to defend yourself?? There is nothing wrong with moderation. Look at some of the past threads and you will find a formula to help you with your moderation. But the decision is up to you and what you want to become. Nexus, TaiChiBob and others can explain every training method in the world but it is up to you. Hope I didn't offend anyone.

Damian

BSH
04-02-2002, 09:34 PM
To all those quoting books and authors, my thought is this:

The people who want everyone to think they are knowledgable, write books. Those that are knowledgable are silent.

If you have truly gained knowledge, why would you publish it so that people who have not gone through the trials and tribulations can have the same knowledge you have. You have to work for knowledge. You may think that reading a book is a trial, try finding a true authority on a subject and see how willing they are to freely share their knowledge.

Nexus
04-02-2002, 10:22 PM
Great point BSH!

As I have said before, these practices if one is serious about learning them are financially, emotionally and physically very difficult.

BSH
04-04-2002, 10:32 PM
So true. I have found that sacrifice is necessary in Kung Fu and for each person the sacrifice is different. Maybe it is just my spiritual side speaking but I have found that the more I give up, the more I gain.

What would happen if I gave up sex? Quite a sacrifice. Well, I would probably lose my wife and my child would go with her. I would have less money and therefore less time because my time would be spent making money for child support and alimony. Plus I'd be celibate. That just sucks. My sacrifice would do nothing positive.

I think I will continue to sacrifice time and money to gain more knowledge. I will do what I can to keep my wife happy (yes, through sex) and will meditate more and more and have faith that my Ch'i and Ging will remain strong.

It is called faith. If you think you will lose Chi through sex, go get some. If you don't have any, go ahead and quote some author who published his OPINION about the negative affect of sex on ch'i.

Nexus
04-05-2002, 01:41 AM
You can still have a great sex life and retain semen. You just need to find a proper teacher of sexual kung fu.

The Willow Sword
04-09-2002, 07:12 PM
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAAAAAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAA AAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Many Respects,,The willow sword

Repulsive Monkey
04-11-2002, 02:57 AM
If you trully believe that using Dr Golinsky's medication you are re-storing your Jing then you are sadly mistaken. Jing is irreplaceable, it can only be refined. One can acquire post-Natal Qi but thats not Jing. Jing is finite, and is depleted everytime one releases semen, whether that be intentionally or not.

The Willow Sword
04-11-2002, 11:59 AM
so when you are born you start out with 100% of your jing? and then when you start to jerk off or have sex you lose exactly WHAT %tage of JING do you lose? .8 percent 1%? .6745 %?

do you see where i am going with this? this is one of the subjects that i think that is less than perfectly thought out. i believe that your jing IS replenished when semen is replenished.
most of us do NOT engage in any activity other than traditional, and some non traditional forms of, copulation AND the good ole 5 finger date. i have come across very little if none that actually DO the taoist sexual meditations and tantra, or at least in the proper manner. Dr Yang Jwing ming's book on the muscle tendon changing classics goes into some of the training. However i personally feel that tieing a weight to your testicles and swinging them back and forth is hardly good for anything other than desensitizing the pleasure of feeling the ole in and out. I do believe that a GOOD portion of CHI is given away when you reach orgasm and let it all go. there is a reason for that,,,procreation. the life essence,,,,but our bodies replace it within a few days. as far as JING being FINITE. NO i dont think so,,other wise I would have shrivieled up and turned to dust long ago with the masterbation sessions I HAVE HAD in my adolesence (HAHAHAHA)
this is a MIND OVER MATTER thing when it comes to having sex and not coping out in 30 seconds or less,,(hee hee hee) the best way to retain essence and jing and not let it all spew forth? BREATH,,WILL POWER,,,,FOCUSING ON YOUR CENTER. no tieing weights to your NADS and certainly not pinching any thing off or going through useless and nothing more than unique masterbation techniques(ie:dr yangs' book on the subject).

Many Respects ,,The Willow Sword

Nexus
04-11-2002, 03:16 PM
And it is quite obvious The Willow Sword that you have very little insight into the Taoist methods of cultivation and orientalal medicine on top of that. Another example of someone who bases all of his 'facts' on his personal opinions.

The Willow Sword
04-11-2002, 05:08 PM
i have quite an extensive knowledge on the subject since i have engaged in the practices. who says that the chinese and the Taoist methods are perfect? you? do you really believe that Nexus? why come on here and insult and troll? personal opinion is based mostly on EXPERIENCE. As far as the oriental medicine is concerned,,i guess you are referring to formulas that help build semen or essence such as deer horn or some of the other weird items such as Ox tendon and seahorse and all that other unecessary stuff, given that there are some really good forumulas out there,,i have found that the best formula is what i had mentioned earlier,,,BREATH,,,focusing on the center,,,and if you are going to take something,,take ginseng,,red for the males and white for the females. soak it in rice liqour for as long as needed and take ounce shots of it everyonce and a while.
Nexus i can tell from your earlier posts regarding my 5 animal frolics that you do not like me that much and thats okay,,but please be aware that trolling and insulting others WHICH I HAVE NOT to you is not becoming nor is it part of the initial discussion here. true i do not believe that certain taoists methods are worth anything, i also have a balance of the western concepts of the body and one of those concepts is that ANY self inflicting pain or mutilation to the body in order to control the functions of the body sexually or otherwise ONLY serves to DESENSITISE the minds' control over the body. NOW i will state again that tieing up your nads and dangling weights on them and some of the other methods are no more that that of self inflicted TORTURE a taoist Pennance if you will,,to control the urge to expell semen.
and i still believe that JING is easily rejuvenated and essence is easily retained. doeasnt matter if you think that i am wrong on this one. id be happy to chat with you in the forum chats on the subject and discuss our ideas and see what is plausable. maybe we BOTH will learn something from it. name a time and date and i will be on the chat forum.
Many respects,,,,,The Willow Sword

TjD
04-12-2002, 08:57 AM
are they teaching chi-kung/meditation in shaolin-do now too?

:)

peace
travis

The Willow Sword
04-12-2002, 02:52 PM
i guess that you have not been up to par in my recent life changes and path altering. as far your ticking time bomb question as to what SD teaches in regards to chi-kung and meditation. there are some things that are taught that i feel are very valuable and solid,,,however a good deal of my qigong and meditation training i aqquired outside of the SD relm,,,,in fact the things that i learned at sd internally i think are better than the regular curriculum,,,they just refined and enhanced a bit on what i already had,,,if you must know who my former teacher was in the qigong and meditation stuff and my previous gungfu instruction, his name was Eric Nessen and HE was a disciple of DR. John Ng. who taught in Kentucky where i am originally from. i never got to meet doc Ng. but i was told many stories and training was passed onto me by Master Eric who is a friend and brother and i miss him terribly,,he is in tennessee now i think.
also SD is originated in KY so there you have the connection and the crossover that i made at the time(i will not go into it). i learned Tang lang bung bo chuan form eric as well as aspects of hsingi pakua and chan ssu chin,,that is all you need to know.
hope this answers your questions.
Many Respects,,The willow sword

TjD
04-12-2002, 06:45 PM
actually i apologize for my last message

it was out of line... just seemed ****ed funny at the time

i should have restrained myself


peace
travis

Repulsive Monkey
04-13-2002, 03:03 AM
Willow I'm sure you are reading enough TCM literature. The fact is , is that Jing is most definitely finite. It doesn't get replenished thats why we have the concepts of pre and post natal Qi. These common truths are the foundation of many other topics in TCM. Yes we are all born with 100% Jing but the qualiy of it will determine the quality of our life long constitutional health, thats a basic fact of TCM. And yes each time you expell semen you have permanently depleted some Jing.

The Willow Sword
04-14-2002, 12:42 AM
the taoist ways are not the only ways out there. and i would be hesitant to really truely believe that the taoist ways are correct above all others. think of it this way: You are born with a spirit.
a spirit which is locked in a physical body for,in these days and times, roughly 80 years or less. in most spiritual doctrines the spirit remains ever present and strong througout the physical existence. when the spirit is connected to the body it governs only a portion of the physical. the rest is mind. the mind being the ruler of the physical and the spirit being the ruler of the life essence,,but essence can be replenished by outside environmental things such as food air water,,etc. thus the life creating portion of the body generates the stuff through which life is partly created. when expelled it replenishes itself. the lack thereof as the body ages is due to the natural deterioration of the body. however through certain methods created by the taoist mindset the buddhist mindset the hindi mindset the native american mindset etc. have facilitated the way for the aging process to slow itself thereby extending the life of the body,,,,and this is achieved by what? by breathing ,meditation, proper diet and proper spiritual mindset(whatever that may be) alot has to do with environment,,universe,,,etc. but as for the life essence of your body being irreplaceable when you expell semen,?,,,,it is just not possible in my humble opinion, i think that the chinese taoist ways on this subject are incorrect. true that one is weakened when one expells semen and needs time to replenish it and that time is a vunerable one,,,,after a short period the body goes back to whatever is "normal" for that particular body.
if it was true that our "original chi" was depleted every time we expelled semen and that we lost a portion of it and could not replace it,then we would die in a manner of days and this would be apparent in our beginnings of puberty when us guys cant get enough of masturbating or having sex with every skirt that walks by. just another old chinese rendition of an even older wives tale that You will go BLIND if you continue to do that" hahahaha

Many Respects,,The Willow Sword

prana
04-14-2002, 02:58 PM
TWD

You present a good argument (western scientifically). I purposely stayed out of this thread so far because I do not practise retention.

Anyway, a lay person does not have to "retain" Jing as such, but does have to abide to certain precepts, its true meaning traverses from simply those who adhere to the 5 precepts to those who practise the highest doctrines. But the highest doctrines (those who practise highest doctrines) do have to vow against any emmissions.

As far retaining is concern, abundance is a good thing, above certain levels of the doctrine. As this abundance, overly filled bottle if you like has a very long and pinched neck, is what brings bliss (horse) and (wind) moved about the bottle neck.

It is different in Tao, you are able to talk freely and openly about these things. It is not so simple for me.

OK I should just stay out of this discussion...

Nexus
04-14-2002, 06:04 PM
Willow, we are talking mostly in regards to experience now and not about intellectual debate regarding semen retention. If you were to be doing the internal martial arts such as t'ai chi as your primary martial art, you would most definetely feel a significant increase in the ability to conduct energy and generate power in the body if you were retaining your semen over long periods of time. Nobody is saying that someone who retains semen is better then someone who doesn't, it simply a matter of what one individual wants from the practice they are working on. Are you willing to make that sacrifice to reach a higher plateau and so on. If these concepts are difficult for you to believe or understand, it is simply because you have not been exposed to them properly in an environment conducive to their qualities. Were you to spend time with t'ai chi masters who did practice semen retention and could justify it through their ability to show you the effects and such of doing so, you would likely see a differerent perspective.

Regardless of any of that though, as I just said, it is only a matter of perspective, and is a little detail in the big picture of what we are working on cultivating. However, with that said, it is still a piece of the puzzle in which the puzzle cannot be completed otherwise or rather built upon until it's necessary foundation is in place (regarding the internal martial arts).

Beyond this sort of explanation, you would need first hand experience to understand these concepts.

- Nexus

Repulsive Monkey
04-15-2002, 09:08 AM
Willow you have failed to pick up on a vital bit of information either because you haven't come across it before and don't comprehend it, or because you missed it by accident. That vital bit of information answered your question, but by ignoring it/misunderstanding it you have fallen down again. Post and Pre natal Qi is the key to answering your question. Jing IS FINITE, it DOES NOT get replenished.....FACT!! What does get replenished is Post natal Qi. This is why someone born with poor Jing and who in their earlier life were a sickly child, can do breathing excercises, eat a Chang Ming diet and do Dao Yin/Taiji/Qi Gong to build themsleves up and last longer than their Jing would of initially allowed them too. You almost got it right but the Jing DOES NOT EVER GET REPLENISHED. If it did then everyone would be physically immortal and they would never physically die ( theoretically). Jing is like unrefined oil and is the raw material that when processed, gets turned into Qi, thus when it runs out ones reserves are depleted therefore one has to either be careful with ones treatment of Jing or build up on Post Natal Qi. This is the basis of not just Taoist thought, but many other traditional cultures (with a little changing of terminology here and there!).

The Willow Sword
04-15-2002, 10:05 AM
there were times recorded in the bible and in chinese texts of people living to be 300 yrs or more. if this be a possible thing then what was it that they had then that we do not now? it would seem that over a period of evolution that we would be living even longer years. this is not the case however. some would have us believe that it has to do with the solar system and our connection as organic beings to it,,,also the concept of time that einstein so eloquently has talked about in his lifetime.
the belief is in some circles that our solar system was further apart back in those ancient times and things ran slower,,and so did we. but now the solar system is closer together and moving faster,,,and so are we. the egyptians and even the Anasazi indians as well as the Maya recorded these celestial movements. they believed that the spirit was unending and never was weakened even due to physical or celestial stresses.
the ageing process is sped up not by the depletion of our "essence or spirit" it is depleted by the connections we have to the environment around us and the solar system itself. i know this seems like a "New Age" train of thought,,but this is actually far older than what most new agers are adopting as thier own views. now when you consider the bodies' ability to heal itself and regenerate are we talking about empowered spirit or yi(mind)? given that the body,human body can only regenerate so much of itself. liver is the only organ aside from the skin that can regenerate. i do believe that the yellow nation has made a very prevalent contribution to humanity in that they have the keys to harmonizing mind with spirit. however i still feel as though they have the "Finite Chi" concept incorrect. original chi or spirit is NEVER weakened,,only the body is weakened. chi is eternal,,and chi ,,to me, is just another word describing spirit or energy of spirit. it is that mystery that keeps us alive.
i dont think that i am totally right on this subject as im sure(haha) some of you really feel that i am not totally right on this subject. but based on what i DO know and have experienced. i feel pretty confident in stateing that original chi or life essence is infinite as in einsteins thoery of relativity that states that nothing can be destroyed,,it is only changed into something else.

Many Respects,,The Willow Sword

Nexus
04-15-2002, 11:05 AM
There are many different kinds of chi, and it appears you summed them all up into one version which you call this "spiritual chi". You are correct in the sense that this chi is infinite as we indeed are as much a part of the universe as we are part of ourselves. However, perhaps you need to understand exactly what pre-natal chi is.

Pre-natal chi is in fact the chi our body has. It is the chi that we received while in our mothers womb through our embillical chord at our belly button. This is the very reason why chi kung and taiji all focus breathing to the lower dantien at the point 2 inches below the navel. Do some research in this particular area of taoist thought and you will find your answers.

- Nexus

Repulsive Monkey
04-16-2002, 06:12 AM
You're getting closer but you're still wrong even if you think you're not believe me you are! You seem to be mixing up all kinds of references and spanning whole topics with mere generalised terms. So far what you have labelled Qi as essence which for Chinese they would assume your talking about Jing in that sense. You've mentioned the term Original Qi which for the Chinese they would recognise as Yuan Qi. Post and Pre-Natal Qi (which is the key here to your understanding/misunderstanding) hasn't been directly mentioned by you if it did it would clarify some understanding. Spirit which the Chinese would assume you mean as Shen. So, so far we have these terms: Jing, Qi, Shen, Pre-natal Qi and Post natal Qi. I daren't mention Gu Qi, Zong Qi, Wei Qi, Zheng Qi and Yin Qi as I'm sure they would push this thread into the absolute realsm of misunderstanbding x 10. And hen you talk about spirit are you collectivley thinking of Shen, Hun, Po, Yi, and Zhi????? or not????

harry_the_monk
04-17-2002, 12:46 AM
I practice the 5 precepts you speak of, and was worried about the one you recieve from a monk or nun(celebacy.)

Do you have to practise retention for that one? Retention is something I may try towards after reading this thread, but am interested in the higher doctrines you talk of. Is this to do with the movement of seed to the different chakras you have spoken of before?

I would ask my lama but for the fact I fear to ask her such detailed questions. Do you also know if I will need to practise retention on retreat?

scotty1
04-17-2002, 08:51 AM
Respectfully,

"Jing IS FINITE, it DOES NOT get replenished.....FACT!!"

How does a concept become established as 'fact' in TCM or Taoist thought, without any evidence? How do you 'know' that Jing is finite?

Nexus
04-17-2002, 09:11 AM
We know because people get older and their bodies deteriorate as they use up jing throughout their lives.

Here is a direct example. In Taoist meditation, reverse breathing uses jing to express power. So, when someone is doing t'ai chi, after they have learnt the form, they will begin to do it with a reverse breath rather than a cultivating breath. So, when a person does this t'ai chi, it uses up post and pre-natal chi, although they are cultivating (you hope) a good deal of post-natal chi in their chi kung outside of doing t'ai chi to balance out the energy used.

So... to complete the example, when a woman gives childbirth she is also reverse breathing. She is told to exhale as she pushes, which is a reverse breath or hence using energy. Ever heard of women dying while giving child birth? In chinese medicine it is interpreted as using up all of their pre-natal chi in the act of childbirth.

Another example of people who do things their bodies would normally not allow for due to strenuous situations such as the story of the "mother lifting the car to save her child" and often that uses excessive amounts of pre-natal chi.

So by cultivating post-natal chi, the taoists are able to prolong longevity and increase the healthy living of the life they already have because they use 'less' of the chi they were given from birth and 'more' of the chi they have spent cultivating in their life.

This is about as 'laymen' as it gets.

- Nexus

The Willow Sword
04-29-2002, 07:39 PM
that some of you need to explore other cultures and concepts of chi or essence in the body rather than centralizing your knowledge and opinions on just Taoist thought. i dont dis-count that some of what the old texts say is right on the money,,HOWEVER,,,i will still maintain that chi is what is described as life energy in the body. it seems strange to me that it is broken down into these subtexts likie post natal chi and prenatal chi. as with the ageing process related to the body;s "deterioration" of jing or essence is purely speculative and has no REAL scientific OR spiritual bases. there is a blending here in this country of western thought and eastern. AS to which train of thought is the most viable and acceptable well, ill say this: the taoists thought at one time that when your stomach rumbled or ached it was because snakes were crawling around in there and had to be drawn out.
ill leave it up to the geniouses here to decide which explanation is uhhh ,,, REALISTIC. in the meantime i will also state that MOST spiritual doctrines will contend that the life essence of the body is constant and never ending while it is the flesh that is mortal and naturallly detriorates with time and use. when i put the subject of CHI into this spiritual category i merely sugeest that the reason i do is because what the eastern mindset explains as chi in simple terms is this "energy" or "force"(haha) if you will that makes up the life essence of everything cosmic and spiritual. the taoists WERE NOT Athiests so in that respect the conceot of chi has its spiritual value first and foremost. i merely contend that the chi or spirit is undying and when it comes to the spirit or chi that we have in our bodies it is infinite as we are all according to western thought IE" Einsteins thoery of relativity,,,specifically there is nothing that can be destroyed it only changes into something else.

now maybe we can discuss this with out Nexus being condescending or anyone else who is so certain that i am totally wrong on this.. for i do not believe that i am certain of this ideology,,but i feel a certain amount of correctness in it.
so lets lower our arrogance and have a decent discussion with out too much mud slinging.

MAny Respects,,The Willow Sword

Repulsive Monkey
04-30-2002, 02:53 AM
You are right in that Qi is infinite, for it is it perpetuates vis its nature to constantly move. The Tao Te Jing says that that which is alive as energy but that which does not move is without. However the point is, is that Jing is not infinite I think this is the point that was trying to be made a few times. Jing will constitutionally speaking will always be represented by the flesh and body and therefore you yourself in what you have just said will back me up in the fact that the body (and the jing) is finite. The spirit body remians after the body slips away. The ageing process whithers it so as to not be efficient at processing and maintining Qi anymore for a nourishing existence and therefore the body deteriorates and the spirit body slips out of it and as you say IS infinite. The Taoists of old saw Taoism as being a science and could scientifically explain it as such, and can be still today. However if people have a limited knowledge and experience of Taoist alchemy then yes they will view it as unscientific and mysterious where it plainly is not. And saying that Taoist thought does not add on a spiritual basis is erroneous Willow. What were you thinking of when you came out with that statement?
Again I still feel your understanding is a bit sketchy in places on Taoist disciplines as its obvious that it falls in line with all other disciplines scientific and spiritual. Can you explain what Taoist practices you do and who you are taught by? What does your teacher tell you?
By the way I'm not mud slinging here I'm just trying to see the root of where you are coming from with your statements.

Repulsive Monkey
04-30-2002, 03:06 AM
I did make that comment a little out of exasperation alittle so sorry to drive the point home a little too loudly there. However Jing is definitely finite. Evidence in TCM is through also has its roots in original Taoist practices and Taoist scientific analysis. The Taoists gained sharp perception into internal research through their insights and they used their evolved perceptions in exactly the same way as a scientist would use a microscope etc. and I personally have no qualms in the difference in tools used. I persoannly believe that they are both classed as scientific means of examination. The Taoists realised that which was infinite, replenishable and perishable through their analysis of the human workings. If you practice your internal arts you still start to realise these things yourself. This practice is open to all who are willing to practice hard and study dilligently. I am limited myself in my practice but I too in a moderate way so far in my studies am gaining nbig insights into my body and internal states. This is realisation of the body and Qi as the Taoist practiced, and a good teacher will be able to guide you so as to gain this information too. And yes internal information gained is as objective as a scientific experiment.

regulator
04-30-2002, 03:43 PM
what kinda smoke are you crackin Willow?

both of the largest spiritual paradigms in china are enveloped in this concept of Chi that you seem to think you know so much about, and btw philosophical taoism came about way before religious.

who was your taoist teacher anyways, where did you learn your information? did you learn that in shaolin-do?
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

these concepts have been around for a long long time, longer than you have. take the plugs out of your ears and put them in your mouth, you may learn something. it's not like the ancient chinese said 'hey this whole chi thing sure sounds cool, i'll make it up and add to it' no, they saw something that fit their concepts and it was revised over time. just because you don't understand the concept well enough doesn't make it wrong.

:confused:

The Willow Sword
04-30-2002, 05:49 PM
need to REREAD my above post. i did not discount the sprirtual significance of the taoists. And NO i did not learn the things that I HAVE learned at SD. do i have to BROADCAST A POST THAT I AM NO LONGER WITH SD? should i post it on every single forum here so that it gets through all of your thick skulls?

humans have the ablility to procreate. AND TO REPLENISH THE STUFF WHICH ALLOWS US TO PROCREATE.(sperm) true when the sperm is released there is a certain amount of weakness that occurs in the body. but this is REPLENISHED through the body's ability to REPLENISH ITSELF. just as the liver replenishes itself and just as cells regenrate in our body.
the mystery of ageing and deterioration of the body in my opinion DOES NOT have anything to do with the sperm being realeased. like i have stated before if it were then we would have all dried up and died a Long time ago(as adolesents when we couldnt keep our hands off of our wangers).
how does a plant rejuvenate itself realistically? with sun and water and the ground it lives in. these are contributing outside factors that susatin the life of the plant. so now we come to mammals and animals. what do we do to replenish ourselves? we eat ,,drink and breathe. these are what we KNOW for sure to be true. where the question comes in and the mystery is the concepts of spirit and cosmos as well as this inner essence the Taoists speak of. to me, the body deteriorates and grows old due to OUTSIDE factors. NOT within us. if we look at history we have accounts of people living to be over 400 -700 yrs old. and why? was thier "JING" stronger? was it better genetics? did they not jack off? this would counter and go against what we believe to be evolution. so going on this tangent i would have to conclude that outside factors contribute to the deterioration of the organic being. ie; pollution: poor diet; abnormal genetics brought about by poor diet and pollution, the universe closing in on itself at a faster rate, our solar system rotating faster than it did during ancient and biblical times. whether you want to accept it or not WE ARE connected into everything.
in our whole existance we have tried to solve that mystery of ageing and immortality. we drum up ways to explain why we do this or that. the Taoists have one way, others have other ways.
what i merely state is that not all of what the Taoists say is right on, and i base this on a combination of what "science" tells us, and what certain spiritual concepts of cultures OTHER than that of the chinese.

Many Respects, The Willow Sword.

Nexus
04-30-2002, 06:32 PM
Willow,

If your teacher were to tell you the same thing's repulsive monkey and I have would you still refuse to believe it and deny it with your scientific explanation of sperm and its replenishment?

Your analysis is just like somebody saying that if you stop self-gratification all together and have no sexual experiences where sperm is released, that it would build up to such a high volume that your ball sack would explode.

However, we know that also not to be the case, however it's logic is about the equivalence of yours, however yours is a western vs eastern logic, whereas the example I gave would be western vs western & eastern.

Point being? Until you have experienced the increase in internal energy and high levels of cultivation that conservation of the jing energy through sperm retention brings, you have little empirical data to support what you are saying. On the other hand you are full of existential data which is fine, some people will be satisfied and comfortable living out their entire lives never experiencing the things they seem to 'know so much about'.

I recommend you give try it yourself before disregarding it as taoist mysticm. I would be much more inclined to accepting your information were you to say, "Well guys, I tried semen retention and taoist methods of cultivation for six months and noticed no changes" rather than
if it was true that our "original chi" was depleted every time we expelled semen and that we lost a portion of it and could not replace it,then we would die in a manner of days which obviously states little or no understanding of taoist internal alchemy.

- Nexus

The Willow Sword
05-01-2002, 07:13 AM
Yeah and a horse has no udders and a cow cant whinny. and up is down and sideways is straight ahead.

i know it must get depressing up there in Alaska what with the perpetual daylight and the cabin fever and it being colder than a well diggers butt. in an area that is in constant yin i would think that one would need to be constantly yanged up. so retain all you want and believe that it will make you live for a 150 yrs or more. lets say 200 yrs. you are gonna wish you had expelled more when that testosterone level takes a nose dive in your 50's.
oh im sorry i am being illogical again.:rolleyes:

Many Respects, The Willow Sword

Repulsive Monkey
05-01-2002, 09:14 AM
without being insulting your last comment has turned from misunderstanding to immaturity now. Nexus has quite openly and soundly suggested a western scientific approach (probably to appease you!) in that of experimenting!!! He is offering you an answer by using a western scientific method to either refute or compound the claims of the Taoist traditions. He made the suggestion in fairness and with reasonable speech, and then you go and make comments like that!
FACT - constant sperm depletion = Jing depletion
FACT - Jing is finite

You are still however getting a little closer each time though Williow in that all those external factors you mentioned do have a dabilitating effect upon our bodies you are right, but why can't you understand that many internal factors can have a dabiloitating effect too, i.e. the wasting of constitutional energy (JING!)?

I feel rather your pride is not willing to let go of this issue, and emotional attachment is supporting your pride. A real sign Williow here would be for you to exercise your egoless compassion.

The Willow Sword
05-01-2002, 10:56 AM
repulsive monkey you have shown me the error of my ways,Nexus isnt being a condescending little pr!ck to me,hes offerring me "open" and "sound" ways to discover the lost secrets of immortality.:rolleyes:

OPINION: "FACT;jing is finite"

OPINION: " FACT: constant sprem depletion=jing depletion"

if all this is FACT then i will become a millionarre in 2 days.
"gee i hope it is i hope it is":rolleyes:

Many Respects, The Willow Sword

Repulsive Monkey
05-02-2002, 01:33 AM
Sarcasm is so droll you know! These comments are not based on opinion there are based on scientifically experimented observations. Are you saying that the sun radiates warmth is an opinon, or that dropping a glass cup from a height onto concrete will make it smash is an opinio? Please Willow enlighten as (as it has been asked several times time with an avoidance to answer) who your teacher is who has taught you these alternate understandings of Taoist practise and concepts. Please let us know how long you have been practisinf Taoist cultivation to realsie that me and Nexus are deluded and fanatacial in grasping and embracing mysterious and hocus-pocus ideas that are unprovable.Please!!!!?

The Willow Sword
05-02-2002, 11:39 AM
What Science are we talking about? the science of Taoism?

i have already stated in earlier posts that my views and opinions are based on expereinces that i have had and studies that i have STUDIED from several sources regarding the life essence of the body. As to who my teachers are. Thats really none of your buisiness or anyones for that matter. i am not going to get into a discussion of my teacher is better than yours or vice versa. i have been studying these ways since i started martial arts. i do not draw from ONE source i draw from many for there are inherent similarities to them all, Taoism, buddhism,kahballah,mother earth spirituality,hindu,western science. dont be so hasty to condemn what i offer as an opinion to my studies and practices over the years. have i said that i am RIGHT? No. i have said that in this one area of taoist thought that in my OPINION that it is a little off. i have stated why i feel this way, if i do not give you the answers that you wish it is because the answers i give are not designed for you or to make you feel any more sure of what you believe or to confirm to you that what i am saying is totally wrong. they are merely opinions and they are offerred. you want to tell me that i am wrong? fine. read my below quote that says "whatever you think i am or want me to be i am". and if i seem sarcastic and "droll" as you put it. i am merely playing to what you wish to express to me by saying that i am totally wrong and am stupid for thinking this way. that goes for nexus as well. and with that i will conclude. i am sure that there are other discussions worth having and i feel as though any input i give will be treated as it has been.

how many martial artists and internalists does it take to screw in a light bulb? well 1 and about a 1000 others to sit around and say that the one could have done it more like them for THIER WAY is a better way.
just thought i would throw in a classical joke in this context.

Many Respects, the Willow Sword

prana
05-02-2002, 03:03 PM
The Willow Sword

I'd like to offer my thoughts on this a little more.

Kundalini yogas and the Buddhist Yogas all agree that Jing is finite and hence one who is sworn to these practises must learn to not only retain but move these energies back up the avadhuti.

This thread is becoming a war of words, albeit interesting to begin with.

...


:eek:

The Willow Sword
05-02-2002, 08:11 PM
Yes it is becoming a war of words which i had hoped that it would not have come to that.

Yes in kundalini yoga i know this, the second chakra having to do with the sexual center and also the color associated with it being orange(my favorite color for some strange reason) i have worked with. man i wish that i could email you. for there are things which i do not wish to discuss(for obvious reasons). my email address is whirlwindshield@earthlink.net lets correspond and any one else who wishes to please email me. i will admit that there are a few things which i am not clear on but for the most part i still maintain what i maintain. id rather not have a battle of words but rather a meeting of the minds with no harsh judgement and mouth boxing or name calling. i really do not wish for this part of the forums to become like the rest.
how about we put aside our sarcasm and posturing and have a dedcent discussion or perhaps start a new thread and the subject?
MAny Respects, The Willow Sword

Gabriel
05-09-2002, 03:26 AM
Hey Willow, Nexus, and RM,

Perhaps it is best to put things in this light. Science explains much, but it cannot explain everything. Science is a western way of explaining things. Who or what declares that science is universal truth? Indeed, science cannot explain concepts of spirit, qi, supreme beings, or jing. Heh, unless you want to say that qi is bioelectricity, like Dr. Jwang Ywing Ming believes. :D However, whatever you wish to call it, qi or bioelectricity or life energy is refined from the air you breathe and the food you eat (fire qi) and from your original essence or jing (water qi). Fire qi is infinite because you draw it from the air and from foods. Prenatal Qi, water qi, jing, essence or whatever is indeed finite. When the body runs out of jing, the body ceases to function because it can no longer refine jing into qi, which powers the body and mind, and nourishes the spirit (shen). That was for Willow who doesn't seem to grasp the basic eastern concept or if you do, you just haven't shown it on the forum. It doesn't matter if your celibate and an idiot anyway, because if you don't retain or refine or whatever it is you do, then the body naturally releases sperm about every month through nocturnal emissions. (wet dreams) :rolleyes: Now, I don't really consider sperm to be jing directly, however, original essence is used to create sperm. Now let me explain East vs Western thought here. They both have their areas of expertise. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't go consult some Qi Gong master on the finer points of Particle Physics. Its simply not his area of expertise. Similarly, I wouldn't go ask some particle physicist how to marrow/brain wash :D Simply, the West is not very spiritually developed. All we have had (until recently) is Christianity with a few Jewish and Catholics thrown here and there. Drive around in the Midwest and tell me how many Temples you see :rolleyes: All Christianity and the others have going for them spiritually is prayer, which is just a rough form of meditation (when done right of course, most people just fall asleep in church that i've seen) Up until like 40 years ago anyone who tried to develop their spirit higher was looked down upon and even persecuted here in the good ole states. Look at the witch burnings, some of those people were persecuted because they had senses and powers that no village idiot would comprehend. Others were persecuted cause their neighbours didn't like them. So, lets look at the facts. Any attempt to develop oneself spiritually outside of the norm was oppressed in the states until recently. The Chinese and other eastern cultures however, have been at spiritual study for THOUSANDS of years. Now, I can dispute the findings of 100 chinese (maybe, those little guys are smart!) But thousands of years worth of them? :confused: Even you willow should concede they are onto something. Just my dollar's worth.

Gabriel

Gabriel
05-09-2002, 03:37 AM
oh, and willow, please with cherries on top stop referring qi and spirit as the same thing...please!

Gabriel
05-09-2002, 03:40 AM
oh, and willow, please with cherries on top stop referring qi and spirit as the same thing...please! :(

Repulsive Monkey
05-09-2002, 06:27 AM
Well said, and well defined.

Nexus
05-09-2002, 10:23 AM
One could say however that the mind is all that really exists and chi is just a manifestation that the mind uses to manipulate meditation. Just as we can say that the 3-energy centers of the body are not real however we can use them for spiritual growth. This is why the debate of the reality of jing being finite or infinite and little qualms over words only complicates our daily lives.

One who constantly depletes their jing will never reach a level of spiritual understanding to comprehend the importance of jing energy anyways, so it is a paradox. Even if they intellectually grasped the idea, if they did not practice it, like many things it would drift into the back of their mind only to be recalled at dinner table discussions and meetings with colleagues when discussing who has a greater understanding of the spiritual realm.

One should keep what they are working towards in perspective in these practices and I would be willing to say that one could attain realization of the self without dabbling in the mundane conversations of proving points and details that are far out of context of the bigger picture.

- Nexus

SoulOnFire
05-15-2002, 01:14 PM
Hi

I'd like to quote from a book, (my translation from finnish to english)
"A way to health and well-being By Master Zhang Chang Wang". This
book is about Yi Quan. One of the chapters is named "Questioning
the earlier knowledge, quoestioning the questioned knowledge, and
questioning yourself and others". (really, even though it sounds
funny)

The chapter makes a point that we should respect to the heritage
left to us by earlier generations (masters), but we should not blindly
hold on to it. We should be ready to question the traditional way,
otherwise that way will become worthless and dead.

While the amount of information and knowledge about TCM and
Taoism is huge, we should not, in my opinion, lose our will and
ability to QUESTION. Afterall Qi Qong should be a personal journey
as much as possible, right? We should trust our intuition.

So, Willow, keep up practising.. and most of all keep on questioning
=)

*goes to do some Qi Qong =) =) =)*

The Willow Sword
05-16-2002, 07:08 AM
Thankyou.

Many Respects, The Willow Sword

The Willow Sword
05-17-2002, 09:54 AM
Let me again throw out some things to get the brains functioning.
about the body growing old and deteriorating due to depletion of
original jing or essence. we have several different species of living organisms on the planet that live a lot longer than we do. example:trees,,,,whales,,,,reptiles,,,algae. i am just siting a few. now i pose the question. is the original essence or jing of these beings stronger than ours(humans) or in more abundance than what we have? these beings with the exception of the tree deplete a portion of thier reproductive fluids to procreate, and some of these beings do it on a grander scale. am i to assume that because they do not have human tendencies for stimulating emotional "urges" that they in fact live longer and retain much of thier original essence?

here is another one for you, and i mentioned this in an earlier post, this relates to Humans.
it has been recorded in history of humans living to be 500-900 yrs old. in the texts of the bible as well as other writings tell this.
in a scientific aspect, specifically:astronomy and physics, there is a theory out there that states that in the ancient past our solar system rotated at a slower rate than now and that our solar system was further apart than it is now, and that because of this slower rate the organic beings we affected by this and the life span was longer, and that now our system is travelling faster and actually spiraling in on itself at a faster rate that we are also as organic beings affected by this and operating at a faster rate and life time is sped up as well.

PLEASE NOTE; that i am not giving out these THEORIES and saying that this is correct or right and that everything else is wrong. what i am saying is that when you look at a broader picture about what it is that we consider to be the essence of ourselves,we can see that it is not necessarily confines to just "sperm" or pollution or anything else that you might wish to tack on or isolate as the reason why certain aspects of ourselves are finite.
anyway i am at work and i will conclude,,my break is over,,,back to software accesories and peripherals:o


Many Respects,,The Willow SWord

Fu-Pow
05-17-2002, 10:46 AM
Has anyone read Taoist Arts of the Bed Chamber by Douglas Wile.? Apparently, he sheds a lot of light on this topic by analyzing the texts that these ideas originate from. I really want to get this book.

From a scientific perspective (I do have a B.S. in Biochemistry) I don't think that Chi can really exist.

There's simply no explanation for it. The biolelectric explanation is not that good because the bioelectricity of the body is very weak. We are not "electric" in same way that a computer is electric for example.

Most of what constitutes Chi can be chalked up as good body mechanics or the sensations that result from them.

Aging is definitely not a function of "loss of jing." It is the gradual deteriation of the body by exogenous and endogenous toxins. The biggest toxin being oxygen itself, a by product of respiration.

The fact is that as the body goes beyond the age of reproduction the body just kind of starts breaking down.

That is because in the evolutionary game you are no longer necessary. Once your genes have been passed on to the next generation you become kind of evolutionarily worthless.

This is why you see incidents of cancer rise as people get past the reproductive age. By the time you reach the ripe age of 100 your chance of getting cancer grows exponentially with each year.

Aging is a very complex subject with many variables both environmental and genetic. There are whole university departments dedicated to this subject. But I don't think that anyone has shown correlation between sexual activity and lifespan.

I'd say that more important is diet, excercise, a healthy outlook and a health environment to live in. And, yes, I'd say frequent sexual intercourse is part of healthy outlook:D .

One other thing I might bring up is that the Chinese are not the only culture to have these kinds of beliefs about semen retention. It's just that they may be the only ones who worked it into their "medical theory" so neatly.

SoulOnFire
05-18-2002, 01:09 AM
From a scientific perspective (I do have a B.S. in Biochemistry) I don't think that Chi can really exist.

Chi has been explained to the western world as being blood, lymphatic fluids, hormones, and bioelectricity.


There's simply no explanation for it. The biolelectric explanation is not that good because the bioelectricity of the body is very weak. We are not "electric" in same way that a computer is electric for example.

I'm not sure what you mean by not being electric the same way a computer is, but we ARE electric. Nowadays EEG f.ex. measures brain activity, and provides us information of brain "state" and functions. Heart is measured with EKG. Etc etc. The point being that many highly important functions in the body are being controlled by bioelectricity.


That is because in the evolutionary game you are no longer necessary. Once your genes have been passed on to the next generation you become kind of evolutionarily worthless.


In traditional chinese thinking and Qi Qong, it is believed that being a human is very lucky indeed, and we should use the chance to "evolve" personally to higher levels of consciousness and finally "return to the void". Whether or not that is true, it's one of the fundamental ideas in Qi Qong.

Your thinking sounds deterministic, and defines humans as just the same as animals. That I think is a mistake. We have unique features which are enough to separate us from animals.

Repulsive Monkey
05-18-2002, 10:34 AM
I have never come across any texts that claim that to the west Qi has been define as such substances. In Chinese medicine, blood is blood, body fluids are body fluids etc. I would like to know where you got that definition from because it certainly didn't come from the Chinese.

Fu-Pow
05-20-2002, 05:05 PM
Humans are animals.

Nexus
05-22-2002, 04:32 PM
By Zheng Younil
Dongguk University in Seoul, South Korea

We are born with Qi widespread in the Nature and Universe. Qi is a vital power in the body and mind. Microscopically, we are a small universe. Our body's main energy sources are made up of four elements in the light of holistic medicine. These elements are Semen , Blood , Qi , and Spirit. Generally speaking, the order of formation is as such: Semen > Blood > Qi > Spirit. Of course, these four elements can be interchangeable and inseparable among themselves.

Semen has two sources. One is what we inherited from our parents. The other is what we obtain from foods we eat everyday. Semen can not only be stockpiled in our kidney but also be secreted when our other respective internal organs need it or when we have intercourse with our spouse. Physiologically, semen can be transformed to Blood, Qi , or Spirit through metabolism in our body. Semen and blood are visible. On the contrary, Qi and Spirit are invisible and can only be felt by our sixth sense. Speaking figuratively, Semen and Blood are to red wine what Qi and Spirit are to white wine. White wine is more expensive and higher in calories than red wine. Likewise, Qi and Spirit are more precious and difficult to be made than Semen and Blood.

Why is Qi so important?

Qi is very important for our body metabolism for these reasons;

It heats up our internal organs and makes them function well. For example, it circulates our Blood through our heart and stores Blood in the liver.
It regulates our body fluid's balance and excretes dampness formed by useless fluid in the course of metabolism in the form of feces and urine. So lack of Qi caused by exhaustion of semen by excessive sex accumulates dampness in our body which can lead to obesity.
It also passes through our internal meridians, which control our body's whole network system. It is different from nerves in the western medicine by no means.
In conclusion, excessive sex exhausts our semen and thereby interfering with the formation of Qi. Then the lack of Qi accumulates dampness in our body which can lead to disease. Of course, moderate sex is inevitable for the instinct of preservation of the human species for us. But excessive sex just for pleasure is dangerous to our life. I presume that what I've written above is different from the common concepts of western medicine. So, whether you believe it or not is up to you. But what I am sure of is that this concept of holistic medicine has our korean ancestors' long experience.

Yin Yang Tang For Preventing Disease & A Healthy Life
** How to make Yin-Yang Tang **

First pour hot water in the cup about 2/3 deep. Next, pour cold water the rest 1/3 and drink whenever you want to drink something. It's that simple, just two different temperatures of water.

Why? Our upper body or head should be cool and reversely, our lower body should be warm so that the upper body's cool Qi is able to descend and the lower body's warm Qi can go up thereby circulating the Qi and blood through the entire body. Thus the stomach and spleen in the middle of our body can balance the two Qi's interaction by lukewarm water (Yin-Yang Tang). If this dynamic movement stops, dampness accumulates in our stomach and spleen and interferes with the metabolism of the stomach and spleen and affects our urination and defecation thereby forming fats and dampness in our body. I bet, if we keep this habit of drinking lukewarm water (Yin-Yang Tang), we could lead a healthy life without putting on weight and without getting ill.

This theory was emphasized by our master Gum - ho, a mogul in Korean holistic medicine. He has been teaching Sa-Am acupuncture for 24 years to Korean holistic medical student in our South Korea for free in person and serve the community by doing non-profit Sa-Am Acupuncture Service for the public with us.

Gabriel
05-22-2002, 09:46 PM
Hey Nex, what happened to this natter?


"One could say however that the mind is all that really exists and chi is just a manifestation that the mind uses to manipulate meditation. Just as we can say that the 3-energy centers of the body are not real however we can use them for spiritual growth. This is why the debate of the reality of jing being finite or infinite and little qualms over words only complicates our daily lives. "

if you truly believe this, then these texts and treatise should mean nothing to you. Unless you were just trying to be inspiringly provacative? I must say in regards to the above statement that it only serves to dillute focus. At least for me.. I mean the same think could be said in this respect....

"Dude...what if we were all brains in vats..yeah vats! and we are imagining everything around us, and dude guess what, you aren't real! You're just a figment of my imagination, yeah!"

IMHO, this is not constructive thought. (sorry it took me so long to respond, but I forgot I posted here :D)

Gabriel

Nexus
05-22-2002, 10:44 PM
Things will have different meanings to you for different reasons. In regards to the internal arts, my beliefs go as far as one might call 'faith' in practice, however once those practices yield results, often ones that I did not expect nor was I told would occur then you are able to release the need to 'believe'.

The meditation as you progress connects you in such a way that you often ponder why people even have to believe in being connected to all things as you on a daily basis, on a moment to moment basis feel that connection.

With that said, often things that I say I find particularly important in relationship to the situation or confrontation. Notice how I said confrontation, and not conflict.

Essentially, I did not write the above article, however parts of it are interesting and perhaps will provide some clarity to someone here. We are each entitled to taking what we wish to as our own facts and 'beliefs' as you call it, and also discarding what we consider nonsense, unsatisfactory or useless to us at our current place.

These ideas and concepts are excellent material for contemplation meditation as they have been for many meditators for thousands of years. I invite you to take such an opportunity yourself and become more familiar and adept with them so that you can share with us your personal insights.

- Nexus

Fu-Pow
05-23-2002, 11:26 AM
In conclusion, excessive sex exhausts our semen and thereby interfering with the formation of Qi.


I think the most ridiculous aspect of this whole theory is that matter and energy are "convertible" in the human body. It takes huge amounts of energy for matter to become energy (e=mc2 afterall, where c = the speed of light). How do you propose that semen is somehow "sublimated" up into the brain as energy? The equations just don't add up.

My theory is just like many Catholic priests as we are finding out, many Chinese monks were probably gay and had guilty feeling about sex. They constructed this nonsense to make their celibacy seem more legitimate. Just my theory.

It think too much sex is bad for other reasons. Mainly a lack of motivation. It makes you more lazy, less focused and less aggressive, physiological aspects of neurotransmitters released after orgasm. This detracts from training and makes you less responsive in a fighting situation.

My theory is that ejaculation every couple of days is O.K. to maintain your drive and baseline agressiveness. If you are wanking your willy everyday 3 times a day your just not gonna be focused.

prana
05-23-2002, 05:47 PM
My theory is that ejaculation every couple of days is O.K. to maintain your drive and baseline agressiveness. If you are wanking your willy everyday 3 times a day your just not gonna be focused.

Fu-Pow, I did not mean to single out your quotes here, but merely as a encapsulation reference so please do not take any of what I said personally...

I think the topic of semen retention should not b discussed so much in public. I am beginning to see the fruition of discussing these sorts of things in a public forum. There will forever be debate, especially when it is based on intellectual vs. experiential.

Its like a debate between Muslim's and Hindu's, the end result is civil war.

So to those whose karmic forces has led to such principles, then so be it and to whos karmic forces have not let those towards this principle, then so be it. Because this is sounding like a vegetarian versus meat eating debate. Sadly :(

With all due respect to everyone here, I can see a lot of u r sharing with positive intentions of good will but perhaps the recipients aren't quite ready for this sort of commitment, especially when the knowledge is still based on intellectual/derived understanding.

Then again, I am a moron, ignore me if you are going to get upset.

Repulsive Monkey
05-27-2002, 02:36 PM
well played, with that I'm going to bow out of this subject as it eternally returns as a thread and never evolves but then isn't that the case with all experiential versus intellectual debates?

Gabriel
05-30-2002, 12:40 AM
Well Prana, ideally you are right. We shouldn't tirelessly argue about the same thing over and over again. Neither side will be diverted off their path by what they read here. Yes, you are right about that, I suppose. But, this entire forum is based around the presentation of different opinions and views. And once a whole group of people are congregated or networked, through this forum for example, people are bound to disagree. So, does this mean we should all not present new viewpoints to each other, and present our opinions be they right, wrong, or indifferent? I don't know...

Nex - Well, through my practice in Tai Chi, I haven't really learned how to meditate in a formal setting yet. However, through the controlled breathing I have acquired doing Tai Chi, I can apply some Qi Gong concepts and meditate on my own. Especially helpful to me has been the concepts of xin and yi. This allowed me to separate my mind into two camps. Once I gave my reckless/lazy/sensory side a name, it is much easier to suppress. I have experienced an increase of will when practicing abdominal breathing, even in a normal setting. Also, I have "felt" chi and moved it to a degree. I do not want to mess around with it too much though, because I read and have been told that one can overbalance/underbalance some of the organs in the body, and that one should seek a good teacher before attempting to direct chi. In conclusion, forgetting all the "rules" and concepts might be beneficial for you, but I still need a rigid mind and lots of self discipline, suppressing of the xin with the yi, ect. In other words, don't throw that thought but no thought, mind but no mind, belief but no belief hokum at me. Im not ready for it yet. :p

Fu Pow- I know I was told not to argue above, but....I gotta throw this one out. :D I am familiar with with several scientific theories on chi. The electromagnetic angle being one of them..also, there have been studies on the affects of magnets on the human body, and how a foreign magnet affects the human magnetic field, blah.

I suppose Ill outline some of the key concepts.

In Ancient China, people had very little knowledge of electricity. They only knew from acupuncture that when a needle was inserted into the acupuncture cavities, some kind of energy other than heat was produced which often caused a shock or a tickling sensation. It was not until the last few decades, when the chinese people were more acquainted with electromagnetic science, that they began to recognize that this energy circulating in the body, which they called Qi, might be the same thing as what today's science calls bioelectricity.
It is understood now that the human body is constructed of many different electrically conductive materials, and that it forms a living electromagnetic feild and circuit. Electromagnetic energy is continuously being generated in the human body through the biochemical reaction in food and air assimilation, and circulated by the electromotive forces generated within the body.
In addition, you are constantly being affected by external electromagnetic fields such as that of the earth, or the electrical fields generated by the clouds.

Assuming you accept the above principles, I can now give an example.

If you look at an electrical circuit, you will see that..

1. The qi channels are like the wires which carry electric current.
2. The internal organs are like the electrical components such as resistors and solenoids.
3. The Qi vessels are like capacitors, which regulate the current in the circuit.

To keep the electrical circuit functioning most efficiently, the first concern is the resistance of the wire which carries the current. In a machine, you want to use a wire which has a high level of conductivity and low resistance, otherwise the current may melt the wire. Therefore, the wire should be copper, or even gold. In a human body, one wants to keep the current flowing smoothly. This means the the first task is to remove anything which interferes with the flow and causes stagnation. Fat has low conductivity, so one should use diet and exercise to remove excess fat from the body. Relaxation also helps, because it opens all the qi channels.

Theres lots more where that comes from, but I don't want to type all day and night. My advice to you is before discounting it, find some books about the scientific angle first, since you seem to like science's findings better than the traditional chinese explanation. There are more and more good scientists making bioelectricity their life's work. And if you look, you can find lots of stuff. Oh, a bachelor, masters, or doctorate in bio-(insert word here), imo doesn't justify you to discount the concept of chi wholesale. Discount it for yourself personally, but not to the many that have already benefitted and experienced from it. ;)

Whew..well thats it from me guys..I gotta go boil my hands, feet and forehead in axle grease. I always feel tainted when I dip my paws into science's murky depths...

Gabriel

prana
05-30-2002, 01:30 AM
Well Prana, ideally you are right. We shouldn't tirelessly argue about the same thing over and over again. Neither side will be diverted off their path by what they read here. Yes, you are right about that, I suppose. But, this entire forum is based around the presentation of different opinions and views. And once a whole group of people are congregated or networked, through this forum for example, people are bound to disagree. So, does this mean we should all not present new viewpoints to each other, and present our opinions be they right, wrong, or indifferent? I don't know...

Of course not, people should always be allowed to point their views. I totally agree with you. I was once a non-believer and a good science student many years ago. And I came to discover qi by a great teacher, and later on myself, again. So I am in wish that everyone here will one day be able to feel, see or be. (Actually we are technically or course), but here I see two parties, one who has experienced it and one who hasnt, and the choices of words are deteriorating, becoming personal insults rather than on the topic of discussion. Like I said before, its sad to see people with good intentions and people with a genuine will to understand and discover qi for themselves lose ground based on western science.


So now I will practise my free speech , if you dont mind (Dont take me seriously please I like to joke too ;) )

Did the Chinese discover qi or did the Brahmans ? I like the bioelectricity concept of qi,it does fit quite well but I offer some discussional comparisons, I hope they dont come across as challenges....

I like your theory, let me suggest slight tid bits here & there
1. Capacitors store energy, so I wont equate in your analogy of capacitors = chakras instead of meridians
2. Meridians carry electricity but are not impedance or resistance based, so I equate meridians to signal repeaters
3. Possibly fat are non-polar, hence distorts the flow of propagating signals

Some odd questions here n there,
1. Almost the entire body is a continuous conductor. How does the body (& parts) differentiate the electric pulses and its detinations ?
2. If the meridians are bipolar in nature, qi should be measurable by law of induction.
3. How does your intent accompany the movement of qi ?
4. If the body is bipolar, readio waves in the air would confuse the person as much as in 1
5. Where is the source of this electrical pulse ?

Anyway just some food for more discussions....

Repulsive Monkey and all on this board, as above, I didnt imply to not discuss, but am trying to say, trying to explain qi without dropping science is like trying to step into two kayaks.

I didnt mean to rip into this thread this way... sorry guys. My apologies... hopefully one or more of you will understand what I am trying to say...

Repulsive Monkey
05-30-2002, 02:50 AM
Thanks for the notion but I'm gonna just observe this thread once in a while, and not get too involved with it. I can't anymore on it....how ever don't hold your breaths!???

origenx
06-02-2002, 05:59 PM
But haven't they shown that those with moderate health lives (~3 ejaculations per week) tend to live the longest?

Also, I think sometimes people over-mystify sex, a hard workout or overtraining can use up your energy just as well.

I dunno, I think the jury is still out on this whole topic..