Does hung gar...

[Apprentice]

have ENTIRE body "hardness"?? i heard it does, but just making sure...like, torso n chest n back too, i mean everything, and legs/arms of course...jes to be sure

[tomcat]

Hey Apprentice,
Hung-Gar not only trains deep stances,but trains wooden dummy in an agressive manner fortoughening forearms and shins,also it is full of dynamic tensions,and the iron thread set will strengthen and work not only the outer shell ,but also the interal organs.

[jon]

Its a big part.
The forearms are the first to get real treatment but there is much to follow. There is both internal and external. External tend to be taught fairly early on and is pretty harsh training.
Internal comes from sets like Iron wire and is a much stronger level than the external though obviously it takes a long time to reach that level.
"I can be as hard as Iron or Soft as thread."
Old Hung Ga saying, though im sure were not the only ones to use it.

[Apprentice]

What do you mean by HARSH??? Why would u consider it harsh? Do you think that anyone can do it? How long does it last? How soon do you see results? How do they go about doing it? How long would u say the pain lasts with dit da jow?

[jon]

hehe ok then...
For a start you must hold stances and certain [bridge] arm positions for long periods of time. You then move into basicaly smashing your arms into your partners in an excercise known as 3star blocking[common in many styles]. Most external iron body is basicaly strength building excercises, dynamic tension and beating the body.
Common excercises for external iron shirt kung fu. Least in my school [ext only mind you, internal is very different and im not qualified to discuss that sorry].
Horse stance and bridge arms.
Wacking your body with either your fists or certain training aids like sacks full of sand and the like.
Chopsticks held in a bunch used on the forearms and shins.
Simply taking punchs to the body [building in force]
Holding several push up excercises at half way for long periods of time [known as iron bridge].
Dynamic tension.

Please note... This is VERY external training and will only toughen your muscles and skin and make you used to being struck. It WONT make you invulnerable and it can seriously hurt you if you dont go carefully.
External iron shirt is kinda low grade kung fu and should only be a base really. The internal relies on Chi and qigung, to get results takes longer and is more esoteric but the end results are much better.
That being said internal is a masters skill, external is basic stuff really.
Although as i say dont try ext without proper instruction you will proberly do more harm than good.
Real internal iron body is often called Gold bell. There is both small and large gold bell.
hehe ill let you figure out some more on that yourself a bit of research is always fun:D
In answer to your other questions.
The training lasts the intire length of your learning, though its more necersary for the external in the beguining so you can do some damage.
Can anyone do it. Yes they can... my ex girlfriend had no problem doing the excercises and got pretty good forearms. She still has a conditioned fist. It just requires you to be able to go though a little pain to see a result.
As for how long till you see results thats tricky.
First few lessons you WILL bruise, after about a month you wont. Thats proberly the first thing you will notice.
Then after a while you begin to notice that you can activly hit things with your forearms without feeling it to much.
It works in a scientific sence by knitting muscle. In the west we build muscle by pumping it. This makes it balloon and get bigger. Most iron shirt actualy KNITS muscle making it dence and compact. Hence its tougher. This is why people with good external kung fu often dont look THAT big. They just look HARD.

[Apprentice]

sounds fun:p not really fun, but useful, girls will luv me even more:D is it ok to do strength building AND this stuff? So you'll be Big AND "Hard"??? Dat'd be cool...i seen a pic of a hung gar guy, and HE DID LOOK HARD...u could jes tell that if you punched him in the stomach, he would not get hurt(well atleast not by me)...im even more excited to learn that stuff now, thanx:)

[jon]

Actualy strength building and external iron shirt go hand in hand.
BUT you will find the training will always make your muscles like small rocks not ballooned up like a body builder.
Certainly do strength excercises though as this prepares the body and to a certain extent it will help the training.
This is a really simple example of external shirt there is a LOT more to it.
Experiment:
Flex your bicept, notice it harderns the muscle? Now try it from various positions, you may notice you can do this from any position you chose hands by sides anything?
This is usualy becouse your taught to flex your bicept from an early age. You can make it stronger and harder simply by injecting you 'will' into your arm and tensing the muscle.
External iron shirt teachs you to use most of your muscles like that. Hence you should be able to flex your forearm, your sholder and just about everything else. Now combine that with very hard conditioned muscles.
This is alows you to 'prepare' any part of the body to be struck. This is a dirt simple explanation its just to give you a very basic idea of the training.
Please remember as ive stated though external is just simple mechanics.
Internal is where you start litteraly not feeling blows.

[brucelee2]

I had a conversation with my (hung gar) sifu last night about three star blocking. He said that the reason it doesn't hurt/bruise after a while is not because your skin/muscles/bone have gotten harder, but because you have learned how to move/block properly. He said that if you use proper 'body mechanics'/alignment (not his term) that three star blocking doesn't hurt, and that is what the advanced student learns.

[jon]

Yes an advanced student certainly knows how to block better than a junior. This also helps redusing the risk of brusing. But ability of hard arms is in no way limited to strictly technique otherwise what use would it be in defence?
Your sifu is certainly not wrong... Its just there is also the benifit of both bone and muscle getting harder.
Ask your sifu what the main strengths of Gung Gee Fuk Fu are, you will soon see what im talking about.
Tiger kung fu trains the bones. Crane trains the sinue and tendons, leapord trains the strength and speed.
Right here you can see each animal working a certain element of the body. This is simply an added bonus of practising these said styles over the fighting ability you gain.
Snake trains Chi and Dragon trains the spirt.
By this time you will be very strong and very physicaly and mentaly able.
The orginal point of shoalin kung fu is actualy iron body and good health.
If you dont belive this, Then look no further than the orginal texts on which shoalin kung fu is based.
The muscle tendon change classic.
Washing bone marrow chigung.
I wont get right into this unless someone is really keen, but iron body and good health is possibly the most important aspect of most shoalin kung fu.

[brucelee2]

Jon (Sleepy Tiger)- Thanks for an informative response. I for one am 'really keen' to hear more about the iron body and health aspect.

thanks-

[jon]

Im not to learned on this its mainly from stuff ive read and been told by my sifu.
We are all born unto this world essentialy physicaly imperfect. Even as adults our bodys are under used and under realised. Some of us have strong arms and weak legs, others are have weak bones or weak organs. Most of us have tendons out of place and muscles that cramp. Our body breaks down over time, many people die of 'old age' which is really just another way of saying a certain vital process stopped functioning. In Shaolin kung fu the aim is to make the body as perfect as possible. This can only be done though physical training. When the whole body is functioning in a near perfect state it beguins to affect your mental health. Mental health is of course vital to good living, by knowing in your own heart that you have - to quote enter the dragon "forged your body in the fire of your will" is a very powerfull thing. This is the starting aim of Shaolin to simply make the body as strong and healthy as possible.
They say that to escape this world requires your body and your mind to be as one.
For this to happen your body must be a reflection of your own soul.
I know this sounds esoteric, its very hard to explain.
The best thing to do is try and actualy pick up the book of "Muscle tendon changing" its available from several authors and a very good read it litteraly changed my whole perception on life.

[brucelee2]

thanks Jon.

[jon]

You are welcome:)
Remember though, this wont be the same in everyones eyes. Its my experience and readings. Shouldnt be taken as gospell.