Just curious ....

[razakdigital]

I went to Eric's website and I saw his video clip on Fa-Jing. I liked what I saw in his speed with his punches...what is everybody else's opinion on this?

www.taichiworld.com

[razakdigital]

Wuji,

I agree... I like his speed its awesome. I know there are many opinions of him but what I respect about him is his willingness to share information and he doesn't hold his tongue. A lot of guys in the arts talk mystics but Eric is straight up hard core...I love it...when Novell first hooked me up on this cat I was like - who the heck is the crazy white guys (lol) - when I sat down and really sat his stuff I realize that this very good in hist "intent"...He might not have the prettiest of forms but then hell... does it matter if you are in combat?

Concern Nam's study group - I guess it depends on the teacher teaching it...I went to Nam workshop and I believe that he commited to the art of pakua in all aspects - theory, form and combat...I can't speak for anybody else in his crew...

Pa Kua is a hard art to study and you have to have someone who is committed to teach you ... but that's just my view..

[les paul]

I like the message he is putting out. Although, Im not sure of the dim mak stuff, not saying it isn't there, just out to lunch on it as of right now.

I personnaly use a lot of pressure points in Chin-na/grappling situations, (they are a huge plus here) and a attempt to blast at them when striking and kicking.

but, given the right time and right place anything can be done

Just a thought

Spanky

[Chris McKinley]

Yes, Montaigue's stuff works. Yes, there are those who might have criticisms regarding the prettiness of his forms. Usually, I've found, these criticisms come from people who can't themselves fight their way out of a pair of silk pajamas. If you want to talk about what to use when the sh*t really goes down, I'll take Erle's methods over anything the fancy-pants lady-wristed flower-fist crowd is pushing any day. IMO, it takes some real huevos to talk trash about a guy like Montaigue if you can't even last 10 seconds against the average 3-month McDojang TKD student.

[razakdigital]

Chris,

You set it off!!!! This is what I feel with this board and some other boards I've seen. It seems that Pa Kua cats have issues when a pa kua practitioner talks about realistic usage of combat for self perseverance. It's usually people as you quoted that have issues with some one like Eric...

I learn some forms for flexibility and stamina....but when it gets time to throw down ...I learn combat...man its not easy and can be fustrating sometimes...but its for the better good of my own safety...wasn't it the Taoist that believe that your body is your temple that houses your spirit and you should do whatever to protect it?

As my hero Malcolm X once said - "Self defense is not violent - it's intellegence!"

TBT would bring me to places and to spar other cats from other systems and when it came down to it you have to do all that you learn...you win some and you lose some but you learn combat.

Again...I like Eric because of his intent and you just seems like he is no joke with his stuff...

[bamboo_ leaf]

Seems like if you where out to see if you understand whatever style you play, you would contest it against people who are known for their abilities in that style.

If arrogance and beating people where the standards I think many people could lay claim to being “badasses” and then call it what ever they want.



Would it be?

[Braden]

Originally posted by bamboo_ leaf
Seems like if you where out to see if you understand whatever style you play, you would contest it against people who are known for their abilities in that style.


I couldn't disagree more. This is one of the fundamental differences between martial arts and martial sports. Martial sports evolved to defeat opponents with the same skillsets who are doing the same thing as you. Martial arts evolved to defeat opponents with very different training. For the most part, any one you encountered would be a training peer of yours - would there really be much chance of a life and death struggle? Are your classmates going to try to mug you, rape someone you're with, or break into your house and murder your family? If the answer is yes, go find a new school! ;) Unfortunately, it takes alot of effort, courage, and proper guidance to test your stuff against people who aren't your classmates. Because of this, the attitude which you described has evolved. The consequence of this is that many martial arts lineages have _evolved_ completely to deal with classmates. So now for example, we have the situation where wing chun guys can't apply trapping techniques except to counter wing chun trapping techniques, bagua guys are great at changing up to follow a bagua guy changing up - but changing up to counter a kickboxer, no way! It's not just us. Have you seen the clips of the BJJ guys looking helpless while Sakuraba refuses to walk into their guard?

Personally, I have no interest in learning to defeat a bagua practitioner. If I ever met one on the street, I'd sit down with him and have a drink. But if I can respond to a group of skilled assailants on the street, then I surely "understand" the martial side of my style.

[blacktaoist]

Today fallacious so-called internal teachers and they false Philosophy of combat are the standards of the internal martial arts today.

I have met and spar and push hands with many so called renowned internal masters and even students, most of the time they skill is $hit.

Like all ways all Theory and no practical techniques. Many think just because they practice an internal martial that makes them better then the other martial artists fighting style.

When in fact most most external martial artists are in better condition and have speed , power , timing and good fighting skills. Atfer all thats what martial arts is all about training and enhancing the mind and body for fighting skills.

Many think that, they don't need to freefight to enhance skill in the so called internal. They think by reading chinese books of philosophy like the Tao Te Ching or the I Ching is going to one day enlightening them and make them a invincible fighter.

When in fact a person have to freefight to enhance they skills or even modify some of they techniques for a better more practical way of fighting. This is what change is all about, but a person will never learn how to change if he just read about it.

This is why freefighting is a must, freefighting is a exercise in mental strategy as well as physical ability. A mental strategy and physical ability that most internal teachers don't have. Amateurs(non skill) trying to act like professional internal masters. What a joke!

As for my View on Sifu Erle Montaigue, I like Erle philosophy of fighting with BaguaZhang, No Bull$hit all killer mindset just what a person need in a real fight, real practical information, not some I-ching philosophy Bull$hit on how to utilize or distinguish what trigram energy characteristics to use in a fight.

Most of Erie Martial arts video tapes that I have seen, have real good practical information on internal martial arts. Better then some of the Bull$hit renowned internal Martial art video tapes I saw. All talk and forms, no real "MARTIAL KNOWLEDGE"

Bottom line, Erle Montaigue is a fighter Just look at one of his video he loves what he do. He go the **** off when he performs one of his techniques. I never met him, but I can tell he loves to fight.

Also his Dim Mak videos are Very good. I never know when I may have to knockout somebody. LOL


:D :D

[bamboo_ leaf]

Seems you really misunderstand what I wrote.

If you really want to see if you have true TC skills then I would say find the best TC people and challenge them.

Push hands is not fighting but it is a way of testing skill. Not having the skill can get you hurt very easily in these types of test.

People who get locked into their style and cann’t apply it in a free from manor IMHO really don’t understand what there doing. They mistake the box for what’s inside.

You talk of fighting, seems you haven’t learned there are no rules in fighting. True skills should respond to any situation in natural and balanced way. Once the idea is internalized you can apply it as you wish.

I Think saying some one is a good fighter is not be the same thing as saying some one is a good TC fighter or Bagua fighter if they can’t demonstrate the skill of their art.


You talk of countering with tech. and applications, as you may know one of the skills of TC is to follow, control and release. This is much different then trying to apply or do something to some one.

Seems we have some different ideas.

I agree, thinking that you can swallow and spit is much different then doing it. :)

[Braden]

Originally posted by bamboo_ leaf
Seems you really misunderstand what I wrote.


Quite possibly. ;)



If you really want to see if you have true TC skills then I would say find the best TC people and challenge them.


That's one approach. But in some circumstances, this approach will make you think you have true TC (or whatever) skills, because you can play the TC "game" properly, but you haven't learnt to apply it beyond the "game" yet - in which case, I would say you don't truly have true TC skills. Just like in the examples I posted - some wing chun guys look and feel incredible against other wing chun guys, but are helpless against skilled non-wing chun guys. The same is true of any art.



Push hands is not fighting but it is a way of testing skill. Not having the skill can get you hurt very easily in these types of test.

...

People who get locked into their style and cann’t apply it in a free from manor IMHO really don’t understand what there doing. They mistake the box for what’s inside.


We're in agreement.



You talk of fighting, seems you haven’t learned there are no rules in fighting.

Not sure where you're getting this. ;)



You talk of countering with tech. and applications


Or this. ;)



I Think saying some one is a good fighter is not be the same thing as saying some one is a good TC fighter or Bagua fighter

We're in agreement. But if someone is not a good fighter, then they can not TRULY be a good TC or bagua fighter - only a good TC or bagua 'player.'

Not that I'm either. ;)

[bamboo_ leaf]

This is what I really don’t understand about some of the people here.

They already know it, if you asked Black Taoist, or Chris M. or your self and many others that I have come to know in this forum any question about the why and how of their art. I feel they could break it down and explain demonstrate as they understand there arts.

They know all about the changes, jings and many other things. Just from reading it would seem that many have a good deal of skill in what they do.

I view acquiring the skill to really exhibit Bagwa, TC, of Hisng I to be very critical. I think it requires a totally different way of thinking other then who can be king of the mountain.

Other wise why go through all the training required to gain the skill.

If “ razakdigital” blows some one a way in a match but didn’t exhibit any of his art In one sense he won it, but in another IMHO the more important part he lost.

In fighting there are no rules, gun fu, and meet the chair or rock fu work for me. It’s part of my art. To only say that your going to use H2H to settle things seems a little limiting to me. Use what you have according to the situation.

BT says that he blew away some IMA people who thought they really knew IMA. I think they both won but in different ways. The people who lost now understand that what they do needs some work. BT gains by applying and showing all the work he put into his art works. This is what I am talking about.

this is only my view point :)

i have met to many CMA people who couldn't or didn't know how to apply their art. So again i veiw being able to really do it according to your arts skills a little more important then kicking some ass.


luck in training

[Justa Man]

bagua guys are great at changing up to follow a bagua guy changing up - but changing up to counter a kickboxer, no way!

what would be it's use then? there would be no practical value in one's ba gua if he can only counter his kind. one might as well go meet up with the old folks everyday at dawn and do qi gong.

[dedalus]

Exactly the point ;)

[blacktaoist]

I think you need to reread my post, maybe you don't understand my statements.

A person can study all the throry and techniques of a Martial art, but if they can't apply it at will. then what good is it.

Bottom line is, the way you train is the way you react. Real fighting have not to do with what hand or foot techniques a person think they can utilize.

A person must have real skill, and I'm not talking about Tai Chi push hands Games or Good looking Internal forms or light-contact sparring. A person must train practical. Like I said in my first post.

sparring other martial artists have nothing to do with being king of the Mountain, So I don't know where you are coming from with that misleading statement.

Sparring is the only way, and best way to utilize Martial throry and application. Sparring open up new methods and combine them with already established techniques for a better, more practical form of combat.

Like I said time after time, I don't mind Freefighting other Internal Martial artist, I'm easy to find. I just have confident in my skills and I know what I can do. It have nothing do with being a king of a mountain or top fighter. If a person have real skill fine. if not Then I'm going to call it , like it is.

People get upset to bad. thats life live with it. :D :D :(

[Braden]

bamboo -

I agree with what you said completely - except the part about me being able to explain anything about my art, since I have very little skill and cannot! ;) The only thing being said here is that you can get trapped by the 'game' of your art and look good while doing it, but be unable to apply it freely - which I know you agree with, since you said it yourself! ;) No one's claiming that just because you can 'kick ass and take names' you're necessarily a good internalist.

[Chris McKinley]

Don't anybody raise their Liver Fire too much over this, but here's a tiny bit of logical analysis of the ideas involved in this here discussion. :P

As I see it, there is an argument brewing between the proverbial apples and oranges. On one hand, we are discussing the value and merits of the ability to fight. This idea holds regardless of the style of fighting being considered, since it serves the greater priority of self-preservation.

On the other, we are discussing the value and merits of being able to correctly manifest the principles of a given internal art through physical motion, whether in combat or not. This also serves a greater priority; namely, that one ought to be able to manifest these principles correctly, to whatever degree, if one is to be able to maintain intellectual honesty in claiming to be an internal martial artist of whatever arbitrary level of skill.

The problems inherent in the discussion so far seem to stem from inconsistent and agreed-upon recognition of these two factors. There are three general ways to view the situation. 1) these are two valid but entirely separate considerations altogether, 2) they are not separate at all, but are in fact completely mutually defining for internal artists, and 3) they are able to be considered separately, but contain a certain degree of interdependence. Let me put forth a typical hypothetical argument for each of these for illustration.

1) "This is the correct choice because one can be a highly skilled fighter yet not be able to manifest internal principles well at all. Conversely, one may be able to correctly demonstrate all of the internal principles, yet not be able to fight well at all." This model implicates still other factors that may be involved in being able to fight successfully than those found in the Classics (which I am assuming to be the agreed-upon standard of internal principles, lest we open up an entirely new avenue for debate). This model further allows for the separate prioritization of fighting skill and ability to manifest internal principles correctly.

2) "This is the correct choice because, as internal artists, if we can't manifest the internal principles correctly, we will be unable to fight well, since the structure which provides so much of our power is included in the principles. Therefore, bad manifestation = bad structure = poor ability to fight using internal styles. Likewise, if we are unable to fight using internal skills, then we cannot claim to be correctly manifesting the principles; we are merely going through the motions. This shows that fighting skill as an internal artist and ability to correctly manifest the internal principles are mutually interdependent, and to some degree, probably even mutually defining." The major difference between this model and #1 is in how one is defining the ability to manifest the internal principles correctly. This model carries with it the inherent assumption that correct manifestation must include the ability to apply it successfully in combat since these arts were originally designed for combat purposes, in contrast with various similar qigongs which were designed with health as the primary purpose.

3) "This is the correct choice because, while fighting ability and the ability to manifest principles do contain areas of overlap, they are still separate abilities to a degree. That is, while it is true that an internal artist who can demonstrate principles but can't fight isn't really a complete internal artist at all, and likewise for someone who can fight well but can't manifest the principles, there are still factors that these two skill sets don't share. For example, timing and physical conditioning, while essential for fighting ability, are almost unnecessary for the ability to correctly demonstrate and physically manifest the internal principles. Likewise, while the ability to sense, control, and transmute the different qi's from the seven gates is essential to correctly manifesting the internal aspects at advanced levels in order to move beyond the merely outward manifestation, this ability has almost no bearing whatsoever on the outcome of a real fight." This model sees the situation as two skill sets which, at some point, dovetail with one another for internal artists. It does not contain inherent assumptions regarding the prioritization of fighting skill vs. ability to correctly manifest internal principles according to the Classics.

Which model is correct? I suppose it depends on how we as individuals define things. Do we recognize fighting skill and ability to manifest principles as two different concepts, as one in the same thing, or as some combination of both? If we view them, to whatever degree, as separate, which is given the greater priority? These are questions I believe must be asked by each practitioner at some point along his or her path as an internal artist. The answers are intimate, personal and may profoundly affect our practice of our given art and perhaps even our very lives should we ever find ourselves in a real physical assault. Whichever choice one makes, knowing why one believes the way one does is the only way to be congruent about the choice and avoid internal conflict over it.

[bamboo_ leaf]

nice post from a thinking man. :cool:

[beaudacious]

looked good, but dont think the feet leaving the ground is a sound practice. when he did the real thing he didnt show what his body was doing. As for this other discussion, my teacher once said to me nice defense and attack but where was the bagua, now use bagua not street fighting. then i got hit a few times but managed a few nice attacks. to use the respective arts in free fighting is more difficult than most think. You need to leave the ego and testoserone at home.

[razakdigital]

If “ razakdigital” blows some one a way in a match but didn’t exhibit any of his art In one sense he won it, but in another IMHO the more important part he lost.

Hello Bamboo,

I think that if I got into a confrontation and I used a technique not considered part of Internal Martial Arts who cares if I used it? I won. That is all that matters. Of course we all wan't to use our skills if that time every comes. To me - IMHO - to win is to win - as I stated in my previous post - I won some and I lost some. It was something I need to do to learn. Guess what? I have more learning to do.


"Street Knowledge, Intellect, and Spirituality - is my survival package when I deal with reality" - Guru of Gangstarr - Moment of Truth

[bamboo_ leaf]

hi, razakdigita,

i think i understand.

i thought Chris M, had some really good prespectives on our views.

take care

luck in training :)

[Nexus]

Razak, both views are correct, and what you have to say is correct. In regards to winning is winning, it is true that when fighting, it is more important to win then to show that it is your art that is winning the match for you. This is especially true in taijiquan. A fighter must be fierce and willing to do what is necessary to win. It is the ego that has the desire to display the art that you study as the sole reason of being able to beat your opponent.

Anyways, both sides have equal merit as we study our arts to improve our lives and we enjoy seeing aspects of our lives influenced in such ways. Just as such, we enjoy seeing our martial arts effective when employed during combat situations.

Thats it from me on this subject though :)

- Nexus