Think I Found "Jing"

[Water Dragon]

I was just out back, doing some power drills. I started messing around, shadow boxing. I threw out this punch, similar to the transition from diagonal whip to fist below elbow in the first part of the second section. That whipping Long Fist. I felt this pulse going from my foot up to my hand. And then, at the end there was this "explosion" in my hand. It kind of stiffened me up for a second, just like a whip cracking.

My wrist is kinda sore after doing it a few times. I'm gonna go back out and hang the old heavy bag on the tree, see what happens. I'm curious :D :D

[taijiquan_student]

That's really cool!
I love when those sorts of things happen. I had something similar happen not too long ago. I was doing a kind of deflection-fajing excercise that was of a particularly coiling and springy nature. All of a sudden, my whole body felt like one giant rubber band. When sinking down it would compress, and when I came back up it release the energy very strongly. I felt extremely springy and elastic-like, but just as connected to my root as usual(usually in practice I feel very sunk and stable, although the spring is still there. This thing just took it to a new level). Anyway, sorry to rant like this when it's your experience that is the issue!

Yeah. These sorts of things make training really fun. Good Luck!

[EARTH DRAGON]

Years ago when I was in goju ryu me and my sensei were sparring when he put his arm up in the air and then threw a roundhouse kick so fast that snapped like a leather belt 1 inch from my face before I saw him move. I stoped the fighting and said wow what was that? he said I dont know but I couldnt do it again if I tried. and he trained go ju for 29 years.
He later explained that at certain times when you really let go the universal chi from many past masters will flow through your body like a electricity conducter. sounds kinda wacky but If you remember kickboxer with van **** when he practiced in the ruins he heard and saw the voices and images of the great warriors. sounds stupid right Heres the catch this was before the movie kickboxer came out. So when I saw it it totally reminded my of that day in the back yard...........

I found out about "jing" from the first day I met my sifu and I touched hands with him.

At the first touch, he rocked me so bad that I got pushed out of my stance.

He's continuing to push me around like a rag doll, though I'm getting stronger every time.


Many CMA sifus like mine insist that until a student FEELS the effect of jing, it's hard to teach.

[Shin]

Let me understand this correctly.

You earlier posted a huge rant against the existence of qi, and you had never experienced jing?

And aren't you the one who posted on Jarek's that there's no difference between a boxer punching and fah jing? That fah jing was essentially punching fast?

Pitiful.

Water Dragon
Credibility Rating: 0

BTW, you should feel it going through your hand, not in your hand, that's why your hand hurts. Your alignment is most likely off a little.

Go practice more, you'll learn a lot.

[taijiquan_student]

Actually, Shin, on the fajing thread at Jarek's site, WD said "All good Martial Arts have it. Boxers are actually quite good with it. As a general rule, anyone who claims theirs is the only style that has it, doesn't have it." I don't see anything about fajing being nothing but punching fast, but maybe I looked at the wrong thread.
Maybe his alignment is a little off, but I know mine isn't perfect yet, and even you probably have some room for improvement. If you don't, well, then that's wonderful.
Respectfully,
--t.s

[Shin]

Maybe I misquoted. Jarek's is down. Regardless, without ever having fah jinged, he's not qualified to talk about it. I did years of boxing, and there's no fah jing in it, unless you simply take it as a literal translation. There is a unique element to fah jing in the internal arts, as he has now discovered.

[Water Dragon]

Well Shin, First off, when we were having our talk on Qi here, I said then that I couldn't fa jing. If I could admit it then, how do I lose my credibility now.

I still believe boxers have what we would call "Fa Jing" I also feel that every art expresses their power a little differently, so what's the problem? Fa jing is actually punching fast through a relaxed, well aligned skeletal system. What happened to me last night would back that up.

I've also been told by many high level people, that whe I get Jing, I wont feel it coming from any part of my body. That's also what I got last night, it felt like a pulse or wave going from my foot, through my body to my hand.

I tend to think my credibility rating comes from the fact that I have met with, and continue to meet with people on the board. I knocked SevenStar about a foot out of his root with my punch not too long ago, we were both surprised at hell. He told me my ounch fellt like a Thai kick. That's easily verifiable on these boards. As far as my yielding, I pushed with Crumble before, that's verifiable. As far as my beliefs and methods on standing and rooting, just ask Fu Pow or Scotty1. We've both had e-mail conversations about this.

So there it is, you don't have to depend on what I say, you can check out people who have felt what I do and ask their opinion. Also, I don't think I've ever came here toutong myself as a master or even an advanced student. I'm just a guy in the intermediate stages with a strong opinion and a need to figure out why this stuff works.

Next, there's poeple on this board who I respect as being more advanced than me. Namely, RAF, Drake, Monkeyslap Too, and probably Count as well. I was hoping to get some ideas from them on what is going on. They've all demonstrated solid knowledge at a higher level than me various times in the past. This post is for me, so I can get help from them.

Anyway's I popped the $hit out of the bag, actually got a loud abng, but whatever it is I lost it. It feels like the feeling is breaking up in my forearm now. It just doesn't feel as solid. Any ideas?

[bamboo_ leaf]

“I don't see fajing being nothing but punching fast, but maybe I looked at the wrong thread.”

IMHO, this is very different from what I feel and understand it to be. With an understanding and certainty such as this it would be really hard to explain what the difference is.

You would have to feel the difference ;)

[Crimson Phoenix]

Huang, definitely, I have always been told that masters pass down jin instead of teaching it, as you cannot fully understand it with words alone unless you felt it with your body...
Water, it's great, it reminds me of the first time I managed to whip my spine and connect to the punch along with the breathing and I felt this HUGE surge and impact at the tip of my fingers, which left me all clueless and amazed at the feeling...this feeling of connection with the sudden exhale and the pure force going out the hand was something I had never felt before, and eventhough I had read many things about jing, now I fully undertstood what it could be...of course, it's not a yes/no situation and jing can be worked and perfected, so it was surely a so-so jing, but it was my first real one and I was very very surprised and amazed.
Which makes me think: do you think some arts favor the appearance of jings earlier than others? In other words, do some styles, given their theories or principles let you reach the issuance of jing earlier than others? If yes, is it the same quality or do you think some arts (for example internal arts) teach you jing later, but in a more refined way??
I'd be happy to hear your opinions about that...

[Kevin Wallbridge]

Here you said, there you said... whatever.

WD, sounds like you had a good experience. Feeling jing from a master and having an internal experience of it are two entirely different things. I believe that it is necessary for most of us mere mortals to actually have someone apply it to us to understand what we are even looking for. However, there may be some out there who can get it on there own. It is still just something from the outside until you start to go there yourself.

WD, I'd recommend that you don't look too hard for it too soon. Just keep up the training you were doing to get there and keep your attention open to possibility again. When you try to force it out you have a high potential for injury. How many Chen stylists starting to get the hidden-hand-punch have I seen come down with rotator cuff injuries because they try to recreate a positive experience of power that they weren't quite able to do naturally?

Another thing you may want to explore is initaiting the expression from dantain first, then the ground, and so on.

As for boxers, I feel that many of them are able to approximate fajing with mechanical connections that are above average, yet they still are not able to generate the power internally. Because of the long movements they rely too much on the larger muscle groups of the shoulder and trunk. A lot of energy is generated, but alot of energy is also dissipated into anagonistic contractions on the opposite side of the joints involved. This means that any agonist/antagonist groups doing the work are not contibuting to the mass of the strike.

Perhaps someone with a more recent knowledge of physics can help me as I am very rusty. There is formula, force = mass x acceleration, if I'm not mistaken. If deep short postural muscles are used for power expression and the larger muscle bellies are relaxed, then the large muscles can contibute to the mass in the equation. Acceleration is where things start to get really different. If you consider that acceleration is equal to velocity over time, and that velocity is the change in distance over time, then we have to consider distance as a major variable.

Bear with me, lets say the time is about the same, a fast punch. What is the distance over which the acceleration can occur? For most boxers the distance is from the shoulder joint. For a power shot, from the middle back. Rarely does a boxer generate power from anywhere deeper. Hips, sometimes, from the feet? Lets watch a thousand hours of high level boxing and we may manage to see a single shot that comes from out of the floor. In internal arts the distance is dantian to the floor to the hand (ideally).

Now if we consider that internal jing is often delivered with the attacking hand already touching the target we have a shortening of the time necessary for expression. All of these varaibles lead to a much higher level of kinetic force being generated in the end. More mass, longer distance over shorter time = fajing.

[Water Dragon]

I'm not sure. I know I could hit hard as hell before, but always knew the power initiated from my kua. I didn't feel that this time. I also know that at least one of my teachers can put his hand on you and then hit you with as much force as I get from a wind up.

I think we definately have to go through various stages. If these are progressions of "Jing" I don't know. That's why I don't like that **** word any way. I prefer to think of body mechanics. What I figured out last night was a new mechanic. It definately was a notch up from where I was, but it was definately built upon the foundation I already had.

They did a study once that says a right cross from a pro heavyweight boxer is the equivalent of being hit in the head with a 14 pound sledgehammer swung by a 200 pound man. There's definately something going on ther IMO. Boxers also tend to talk about their punches as a wave of force which is different from the "pulse" I felt but similar.

Basically, I'm entering new territory here which is cool. I was at a plateau for about a year and a half and it feels like I'm gonna start progressing again.

[taijiquan_student]

“I don't see fajing being nothing but punching fast, but maybe I looked at the wrong thread.”

IMHO, this is very different from what I feel and understand it to be. With an understanding and certainty such as this it would be really hard to explain what the difference is.

You would have to feel the difference

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Hey bamboo. I don't know, maybe I'm not understanding your post, or you mine, but the above quote is not an expression of my views of any sort. Shin said that WD said on Jarek's board that fajing was nothing but punching fast, so I got the quote from Jarek's to prove he didn't. When I said “I don't see fajing being nothing but punching fast" I meant I don't see WD saying that anywhere in his post. I don't think fajing is merely punching fast, and the punch a boxer has, no matter how powerful, is of a very different quality and power generation than you would find in taiji or any internal art.
Believe me, I have felt the difference, as I have felt it doing san shou with my teacher numerous times.
Good to talk to you bamboo, I just think you might have misinterpreted my post.
Regards,
--t.s.

[Fu-Pow]

Fa jing is when you can punch and all your muscles stay relaxed and you have a feeling of Peng all the way through the movement. It's hard to do fast that's why we practice it slowly first. Fa jing, as it applies to internal arts is definitely not about muscular strength. Your muscles should actually be lengthening as you emit not contracting. I'm not really arguing with anyone here. Just stating my view of it. :D

[les paul]

Interesting very interesting.......

I'm just a little boy when it comes to my Sifu jing, but....

In my own opinion......

Boxer's have a longer less developed jing. Although it's fast it’s still long by internal standards (by this I mean distance traveled and time to manifest)

However, their are many types of jing, almost too many to name.

Many styles specialize in but a few.

A few indicators if your jing is correct could be:

1) Effortless strength/power in the technique, hence increased speed.

2) Your Dan tien gets warm or hot.


3) Slight buzz in the extremities (arms, hands legs etc or a feeling of lightness in them)



The next one is related primarily to "Fa-jing" and one of the hardest jing to understand.

I myself feel that you can spend a lifetime studying jing.

Here are some of the things I’ve grasped on too.

There is a Yin stage to it at the beginning or a contraction/implosion. (a surge of energy from the dan tien to the bubbling springs (bottom of you’re feet) then a Yang/ explosion of Qi (it explodes up the body and out) I can feel this wave or pulse move through my body, most of the time very dull.

Gaining the ability to Fa-jing or manifest any jing for that matter, I think comes from doing the forms over and over with proper "sung" and breathing, all while really listening and understanding your body and what it is trying to do. Also having an instructor perform various jing on you will help identify them. This is the first step in being able to do them and is a must!.

If your doing Fa-jing right you should be able to strike a 100lb bag from an inch away, as hard as you can from 3 feet away.

Using a bag is not the best tool to use to develop jing. I prefer a striking post that has some give. Internal jing is deceiving, because of it’s penetrating power. I don’t know about the rest of you but when I first started to develop inch jing on a bag , once I decided to try it on a brick wall and about broke my hand, although the blow was initiated only inches away.

Another example of someone striking using correct jing is in the way the whole body strikes like a whip or spring I prefer to explain it as a wet towel and the wicked snap of it.. the blow is thrown with less force, but has much more speed and penetration.



These are just my amateur thoughts on the understanding of the concept of internal jing

Don’t know if my 2 cents helped , but I hope it did for someone

Spanky

[Water Dragon]

Yeah Spank, that helped. Going from my understanding, I happened upon the very beginning of this. Which is cool, because now that I know where I'm going, I know how to develop it. I probably have at least a few years before I can get the short, inch power, but even the long whipping stuff is cool. Definately different than the blackjack type punches I'm used to throwing.

[bamboo_ leaf]

taijiquan_student,

Oops, sorry looks like I did. :cool:


WD, I have read many of your post. I would say you are evolving to "I’m smiling now" seeing the way many here including my self understand, feel, and perhaps can do.

I feel until you move past the thinking of body mech. And allow your self to accept some different ideas “apparently your body knows it already” You will be trying to duplicate something that you don’t know how to do but can do.


My only suggestion would be to relax (sung) as much as possibly and give up the idea of strength

Luck in your journey :)

[Water Dragon]

Well guys, whatever it was, I lost it (for now anyway). And I was so close, I could feel it. Don't you hate when that happens? :mad:

[Nexus]

That's like me and women.. ahh, sooo close! :P

[Braden]

WD - Don't fret it. In my experience this stuff can come and go, and it's a long-term matter to get it anywhere near consistent - not a matter of days or weeks. Also, it seems the more you 'try' to reclaim the experience, the less likely it will happen. Try to practice with the same intent that you'd scratch an itch on your leg while engrossed in reading. I've found this gets the best results. Again - this is speculation, but based on my experiences (for better AND worse).

[Braden]

P.S. Enable your private messages! And that goes for the rest of you too! ;)