Martial Arts in a Wheelchair

[Mr Nunchaku]

Does anyone here practice the martial arts in a wheel chair or with any other disability, or do you know someone who does? I just found out that if you have a disability that in most national tournaments you are put in your own little disabled division where you can only fight others with a disability. Does this sicken anyone besides me? I want a challenge; if someone has a disability and practices the marital arts I say bring them on! If someone does not have a disability I say bring them on! There should be no division that seperates the two. What do you think?

[Jeff Liboiron]

I'm missing my right leg, study wing chun, and really really love it.

[old jong]

I think the only things we should not miss in Martial arts are: Heart,mind and humility!
BTW, Mr Nunchaku. You better be carefull with ahemRogueahem...He's sometimes a firestarter!;)

[straight blast]

I once read a newspaper clipping about a woman in a wheelchair who studied Karate and then smacked up a would be mugger. It was p*ss funny. This poor dude hade been beaten up by a middle aged woman in a wheelchair. He was 18.
I doubt that a night would go by where that guy wouldn't curse the day he was born.
I'm cracking up just remembering :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

[Xebsball]

My instructor said that a guy with only one arm won in this Kuoshu or Sanshou tournament (i cant remember wich). He must have kick ass skills man.

And there was this other one that didnt have a hand, he used some thing to attach the glove where he had no hand. This guy also won a tournament. Kick ass skills again.

Both these were in normal categories, no special disabled tournament.

[Leonidas]

I think they make that division not as a sign of disrespect but because most people wouldn't feel right hitting someone in a wheelchair, just like some guys wouldn't dream of hitting a woman even if that same woman is beating the tar outta them. They would feel akward hence not fighting their best which would defeat the purpose of a tournament. I know the whole deal about not underestimating your opponent and i think in a way both -parties- are being cheated because of not knowing how to defend against all types of people and situations. I'm personally don't think weight and gender divisions are really necessary and creates the same problem. Maybe a division for different skill levels yeah i agree with that, but how would i learn how to fight a 250 pound strong yet slow male if i were a 150 pound extremely fast and agile female, or vice versa. It would also force a person to step up his or her skill level. Maybe that could fix some problems the martial arts has these days. Nothing wrong with hoping. On the issue of disabled matches only. I dont know if it's good or bad, never seen one live but i doubt theres a need for it. Would just have to change the way both people fought. Like how would you get in a strike when the person in the wheel chair might have an advantage since its lower center of gravity and most kicks are useless. Dont want to break your leg on the chair now do you, and kicks to the legs if any wont be felt. Your also over extended a bit and your body or face might be open. How would the person in the chair manuever fast enough to avoid strikes, (By the way, its stupid but are the chairs electric or manual) and get their own strikes in.

[Mr Nunchaku]

Wheelchair users have their advantages and disadvantages, so what? Non WC users and WC users have fought each other a lot and there was nothing wrong with it. They can manuever just fine and non WC users normally don't get hurt or anything.

Yes, some may feel uncomfortable hitting someone in a wheelchair or with any disability, but not doing anything changes nothing. People need to start getting used to it and it will take time, but if we don't start somewhere then it will never happen.

[Kristoffer]

Ive seen Tai Chi practioners in wheelchairs doing fine. And I read an article about the Shaolin temple :rolleyes: And they had a little kid who was really good, and he had only one arm!

Ive seen a TKD kid with a prothestic <english?

[Budokan]

One of our instructors has a brother who is in a wheelchair and he studies martial arts. I don't know what kind of style the brother does, but the instructor says even he has a hard time getting through the kid's defenses. I don't know if the story is true or not; I don't know why the instructor would necessarily lie about such a thing. Take it for what it's worth.

[Mr Nunchaku]

Great stories everyone. Here is another, a women in TKD in a wheelchair won a mixed martial arts tournament. She really kicked butt too.

[DelicateSound]

...I think it should be up to the person in the chair to decide who they fight to be honest. Obv. the other person would have to agree. I think if it was me, and a disabled guy asked me to spar with him, I think I'd say yes. After all, it'd be pretty **** rude not to.

Though saying that, I can't spar with women. So make what you will of that.

[DelicateSound]

That **** word is: "d a m n"
Why the f u c k would you censor d a m n?

[Mr Nunchaku]

I don't think it should be up to the one not disabled, but you do bring up a good point, perhaps some with a disability do wish for their own division. I say ask the person disabled and let them do what they want.

And if someone with a disability asked you to spar, and you said no, that would be very insulting.

[DelicateSound]

If you refuse to spar with them its negative discrimination, and that kind of sh!t sucks c o c k better than BinLaden's mother.

[Mr Nunchaku]

One more thing, this isn't a debate about women vs. men, though that is another very important debate. We are talking about men who are disabled vs. men who are not and alternatively women who are disabled and women who are not. We are NOT talking about a man who does not wish to fight women just like he does not wish to fight men with a disability. If a man feels bad about fighting a man with disability, then that's just plain too bad but he should have to fight him anyway. But if he feels bad about fighting a woman, well that is a different debate entirely.

[DelicateSound]

I find it real hard to fight women.
Guys hitting women is one of the things I really detest, and although sparring is different, I find it really hard to do. I always try and refuse, but there are times at my school where I have to fight the ladies, and I get my absolute arse kicked. I pull my punches, deliberately miss my kicks and just generally try and stay defensive, and I get my arse handed to me on a plate every time.

[Mr Nunchaku]

Has someone already done a Women vs Men debate topic? I'm new here so I wouldn't know. Oh yeah, while I'm at it, is it possible to change my profile? I can't seem to figure out how, heh.

Back on topic though, stupid me I forgot to mention that I am in a wheelchair. Have been all my life. My legs are not paralyzed and I do have both of them intact (there are plenty of other reasons for being in a wheelchair). It is just they are very weak and I cannot use them like I can use my arms. I am in tae kwon do and it is one of my favorite things. At my school we spar a whole lot and I do pretty well even against the black belts (not to say I am that good, but my point is I am a decent sparrer and am getting better as I learn). I have been kicked in the leg, yeah it hurts. People have kicked my wheelchair, yeah it hurts. But no big deal, no one has ever gotten injured or even slowed down when fighting me. I have never been injured when sparring (well I have, but not because I am in a wheelchair).

I think the thing that I am most proud of is that when I first started TKD people would spar me and use no kicks. I asked around and most admitted that they thought it wasn't fair that they use four limbs when I could only use two. Now I have proved to them that they can't do that. When people spar me they use everything they got. This is the kind of change that I am talking about. It can happen if people would let it.

[Anthroman]

The way I see it if you pull punches on anyone that your trainging with your just short changing their training. I wouldn't want anyone giving me special treatment or holding back on me during training. Thats just not the way its going to come down in the street. Its just another way of holding them and their training back.
Anthroman.

[DelicateSound]

To change your profile, go to User Control Panel at the top of the page, and change the options under that.

On a more personal level, I really admire your determination. Don't let anything hold you back.

I've never sparred with anyone disabled, but I'd be cool with the whole thing. I think it's better if people have an open mind. But don't blame people who don't, or who do feel a little awkward. My ex-girlfriend's brother was paralysed from a motorbike accident, and when I first met him I was a little awkward about it, not because I was prejudiced, but because I was overcompensating for it.

I suppose the guys who refused to kick were doing the same thing, I guess they were trying to be polite.

But to tell the truth, it shouldn't matter at all. Give as good as the rest of them I say.

[Mr Nunchaku]

Thank you, but I'm not as determined as my favorite TKD instructor, who would have to be my biggest role model. He too has a disability, though he claims it to be minor and irrelevant. One side of his body does not function well. That means that one of his arms is weak and one of his legs as well. And as you know, if one of your legs is weak then it will hamper kicking with either leg. If you kick with your good leg, you are standing on a bad one, if you stand on your good leg, you are kicking with the bad one. And yet, this guy kicks some major butt!

He fought in Vietnam (has a purple heart from shrapnel stuck into his head, has a hole in his skull to this day) and his TKD skills have saved him in real situations many times (lived in a rough part of NYC for most of his life). He might not win all the tournaments, but he is a heck of a fighter. He eats boards for breakfast and cut loose on me once when I knocked his glasses off in sparring with a ridge hand, lol. I would get maybe one weak hit in only because he allowed it so he could get 3 good ones in, heh.

BTW, I'm glad this topic has turned out well. Everybody has great opinions on the subject.

[DelicateSound]

I know it sounds really patronising, but I always think it really good when someone with a disability is so determined. The courage is must take makes me feel so weak minded it's unbelievable. But with the right determination it doesn't matter IMHO - some of the best blues guitar music is by blind musicians, hell I can't play with my eyes open compared to that!

As for the Vietnam vet, well that guy's got to be brave to start with, he's been through a war!
As for the topic, it's not where you get to, it's how far you travel.

I'm glad this topic hasn't been spammed or trolled, although I suppose Ralek'll be along soon to tell us how his shrapnel wound is superior.

[Mr Nunchaku]

I appreciate that, but it's nothing really. I don't consider myself to have any courage at all. I never looked at going into the martial arts as some quest to prove my worth. I just wanted to join because I love the martial arts like everyone else.

[DelicateSound]

........ but when I can't drag my lazy heine to class like the session I missed today, some people seem to have so much motivation.

On the subject of the Bloke VS Chick though, anyone else feel like I do?

[fightfan]

Aaron LaPointe is now a Carlson Gracie BJJ BLACK BELT and the guy only has one arm! From what Ive heard this guy mowes over most folks that do NOT have a disability!
http://www.kneeonthebelly.com/images/Sr_seminar/aaron_black02.jpg

http://www.kneeonthebelly.com/images/Sr_seminar/aaron_daniel.jpg

[Mr Nunchaku]

Hey, Delicate Sound, I too have missed a few classes for being just too lazy.

[DelicateSound]

Hey, we've all been there. Sad thing is, with winter comin' and all, I seem to be attending less and less.

NOTE TO ALL: Please add something inspiring to my "Motivation" post. Just to give me something to get off my "soon to be fat" ass.

If not next week's excuse will have to be a repeated use of my penile carpal tunnel syndrome :)

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

i dunno . .. if i were crippled i wouldnt want to fight from a wheel chair. not exclusively anyway what if you get knocked out of it?
seems like you'd be pretty much fu cked then.

but i did see this old kung fu flick called crippled masters. and this one dude who couldnt walk on his legs walked on his hands with his legs folded and up behind him. this dude had huge shoulders and i don't see how they could have faked it. at one point he tripped some guy up with his hands and the grabbed ahold of one of his crippled legs and choked his opponent with it.

i know it was a movie but it was still cool as fu ck. i think i'd try and learn to walk on my hands if i ever got crippled. if i couldnt do that i'd learn how to turn my wheelchair into a weapon along with good hand skills.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

women in TKD in a wheelchair won a mixed martial arts tournament. She really kicked butt too.

i know i am not the only one going straight to hell.

maybe the only one to admit it though.

[Narmer]

I have friend who has been the inspiration for much of my training, and started me on the road to gung fu.

He has severe agoraphobia, ans well as severe irritable bowel syndrome. Which has put him on a disabled pension.

He is the most absolute kick ass martial artist I have ever met, not so much with empty hand, but with just about any weapon.

The fact that he can't go to classes anymore, and can in fact bareley leave his home has hardly effected his commitment to training, except when he is so sick as to be confined to bed.

If someone told him he had to fight in a special disabled category, he'd be really insulted. Despite the fact that one good blow to the stomach would put him out of action for nearly a week.

My point is, that if you are going to create a disabled category, then how do you define "disabled", and then how do you determine whether or not that person 'has' to fight in that division.

There is big discussion in social anthropology today about how to categorise "disability" and whether it is a valid way to categorise in the first place.

Why not simply allow competitiors to enter in the events just as anyone else, and only exclude them if their participation poses a condiserable risk to themselves or their opponent (outside of the obvious risks involved in fighting).

[JasBourne]

Nunchaku, you really have to get over the whole 'fighting girls' thing. Really. And very cool that folks in your kwoon spar full-on with you, that's the only way you can stretch yourself.

Disabled martial artists: well, obviously, their disability limits them in certain ways, and they would have to develop skills to compensate for whatever limitation. That could make them pretty dangerous.

It comes down to the skill of the practicioner, I suppose. I mean, unless you're that "human caterpillar" guy (born with no arms or legs), you have the potential of being an excellent martial artist if you apply yourself consistently.

I did a little online searching, and found a bunch of stuff about a woman named Lydia Zidjel of the Netherlands. She's in a wheelchair and has blackbelts in karate and aikido. I found this pic:

http://www.geocities.com/wendi_123/page9.html#self/

[kungfu cowboy]

Human caterpillars!!:eek:

[Mr Nunchaku]

What is your problem, GunnedDownAtrocity. You think I'm a liar or something? TKD not a good martial art? Woman not able to do it? Just what are you getting at?

[Mr Nunchaku]

Anyway, JasBourne, I don't think I need to get over it. I don't even have a strong position on the subject. All I did was make the topic so people could talk about it.

[Mr Nunchaku]

GunnedDownAtrocity, you are not disabled so you don't know what you would do. I have never gotten knocked out of my wheelchair in full contact sparring and I have never heard of anyone who has either. And you have no idea what people are capable of knocked out of their wheelchair. I know that if for whatever reason I was not in my wheelchair that I am still very capable. I might look stupid walking around on my knees, but I could and I'd have enough balance to hit hard.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

"What is your problem, GunnedDownAtrocity. You think I'm a liar or something?"

now that you mention it ... yeah i do.

"TKD not a good martial art? "

i see good tkd artists like i do good christians. they are few and far inbetween and don't really make up for the rest of the useless wastes of space. in any case, that's not what i was getting at.

"Woman not able to do it? Just what are you getting at?"

if anyone wanted to do martial arts from a wheel chair i can think of a hundred other arts that would be better suited than a style that is mostly kicks. and i thought the kicked but comment was funny too considering.

"I might look stupid walking around on my knees"

now i'm convinced you are a troll, and a stupid one at that. if you are paralyzed you arent going to be walking on your knees. if you lost your lower legs, yet still had knees to walk around on, you would likely get decent prothstetics so you wouldn't have to do ma's from a wheelchair. christ there is a olympic runner on prothstetics and we have a jeff.

i'm all for people with whatever disability continuing, or even starting, mas. i also believe if they learn to adapt what they are learning to suit them better, they can go as far as anyone else with it. actually, that should be the goal for anyone. sounds to me like this is what jeff has done. he doesn't sound limited at all.

the diferance beteen you and him is i actually believe him.

[Mr Nunchaku]

I am sorry, but you are the biggest fool. You know nothing.

I am not paralyzed, and both my legs are intact. If you must know, my disability is Osteogenesis Imperfecta. You moron insulting me and being so quick to judge. Oh yeah, being paralysed or having no legs are the only reason to be in a wheelchair. You are a fool.

As for being a liar, I can't prove to you I am telling the truth, but you have no reason on the face of this earth not to believe me. And what in the world is wrong with me being in TKD? If you take out the kicks you are left with karate hand techniques. The reason I chose this school over any other karate school is that my brother went there for a year and the instructors are incredible and are of the most qualified around.

And the phrase "kick butt" is just a phrase. I kick butt as much as a race car flies down the track. I don't even know why I'm explaining this because you obviously know that.

You are the one trolling. You call me a liar with no logical basis whatsoever. Then you pretend to know something about my disability when you know nothing at all. I demand an apology.

[Mr Nunchaku]

Thanks for the link, JasBourne. What I thought was funny about it were what it said under the three pictures if you put them together.

Dragonfire demonstrates getting out of double arm grab.
Dragonfire defends against attacker from behind.
Dragonfire uses bycicle as a shield for defense.
LYDIA ZIJDEL throws Dragonfire to the ground. lol

Anyway, sorry I had to get mad at that guy. I hope he didn't ruin the topic.

[Mr Nunchaku]

True story, one time I was sparring a black belt and ran over his broken toe while sparring. LOL

[fightfan]

Daaaamn.:o