Question to Hung gar students

[Leonidas]

Is Hung Gar really stiff, slow and karate-like from the Tiger influence? When you see your Instructor performing is it smooth, fast and flowing? How much of the other animals are included in the style? Are they used equally or is the Tiger the main focus?

Second part of the question is what are the kicks like? I've read every bit of info i can and i get mixed answers. Are all the kicks below the waist? I've heard it has more kicks than for example Tae Kwon Do with about 36 and some reach really high such as the Tornado and Crescent kicks. Just wondering. For all the Tae Kwon Do people, dont get offended, it's just a question. Write a post and correct me.

Thirdly. Are all the techniques done at short range, or are there some long range moves. Some say there are, some say there aren't.

All you Hung gar practitioners, please give some input.

[jon]

There seems to have been a lot of interest in Hung ga on these forums of late. Could be just me, either way im happy to see interest:)
Im going to go though this point by point so as to be sure i dont miss anything please dont think this is being rude. Also please note all of this is my experience with my sifu, its not going to be the same in every school.

"Is Hung Gar really stiff, slow and karate-like from the Tiger influence?"

-Hung Gar is sometimes considered slower in form than other styles but its not true for its application. Timing will beat speed every time thats why masters still wipe the floor with young ones like myself.
As for being stiff, it should NOT be stiff this is the mark of a beguiner. True Hung Ga is a both fluent and strong. The tiger influence is the more famous aspect of the style its not the only one.

" When you see your Instructor performing is it smooth, fast and flowing? How much of the other animals are included in the style? Are they used equally or is the Tiger the main focus?"

- My instructor is smooth as butter in the sun:D He is also 'very' fast when he wants to be. The other animals are certainly in the style. The first few forms stress tiger, hence many people who would learn Hung Ga for a few years would say it was heavily tiger. The higher forms use all five animals and the five elements. Infact all hung ga forms use all five animals but in some forms certain animals dominate.

"Second part of the question is what are the kicks like? I've read every bit of info i can and i get mixed answers. Are all the kicks below the waist? I've heard it has more kicks than for example Tae Kwon Do with about 36 and some reach really high such as the Tornado and Crescent kicks. Just wondering. For all the Tae Kwon Do people, dont get offended, it's just a question. Write a post and correct me"
This is a tricky question... There is not many kicks in the forms. That said there is NO reason why you as a fighter cant use as many as you would like. Wong Fai Hung the styles most famous master was best known for his kicks;) There are a few high kicks in the forms, though some masters do them low.
As for a numerical number thats very tricky to state. We have a 10 kick form thats taught to intermediate level students but there are more kicks to learn and different ways to do many of the same ones. Confusing I know:(
There is even a subset to the style devoted to kicking called "Shadowless kick".

"Thirdly. Are all the techniques done at short range, or are there some long range moves. Some say there are, some say there aren't."

- This is a bit what i was saying with the 'my school' disclaimer i made earlyer. In our school we use all ranges and adapt techniques to fit. Closer is better, however there is an influence of things like Lama Ga and Arhat boxing so there are also long range techniques.

Also have a look around www.hungkyun.net its a great site for hung ga related info.
Hope that was some help, sorry if it was a little long winded.

[Leonidas]

Thanks for the informative reply Jon. So the forms have the Tai Chi theory. Slow and steady wins the race so to speak. You learn the forms slow first so you can use them later. I understand. As for the kicks and short range thing. I guess people were just overgeneralizing since it's from Southern China.

[fgxpanzerz]

MOst movements in hung gar are from the dragon. The movements of hung gar can be used short and long. That's a complicated question. You should always kick below the waist regardless of the system

[Leonidas]

Why should you always kick below the waist. That would delete half the kicking techniques of some styles. I admit it's risky but my theory is it's just another level of skill to attain. Someone skilled in their style would know when to kick high since it has many advantages. They would know distance, timing, balance, strength, speed and body movement used, all that good stuff. You wouldn't expect a beginner to have the footwork needed to fight 2 or more opponents or a Tai Chi student how to fa-jing. These are skills you learn with years of practice. You could come up with many more examples like this. Besides all of those high kicks are just so d*mn cool and grants a quick KO if done correctly. Really i mean no offense but I think everyone is caught up on the Wing chun mentality or Southern Kung fu in general.


Anyone else got their 2 cents to add to this Hung Gar question

[denali]

I have 2 cents.

Lots of people don't know what they are talking about, but they act like they do. Best thing to do is a little research; it's much more reliable than opinion.

[Paul]

Here's my 2 cents.

It's a common sense thing if you are talking about using high kicks in a street fight. It's a high risk manuever. Sure, if you manage to kick someone in the head you are going to do a lot of damage. If you screw up though you are most likely done for.

Just an opinion.

[jon]

Everything is not always as it seems...
Kicking someone is the face when you have access to your hands is akin to punching someone in the foot!
That being said... There are sometimes circumstances when you cant use either one or both of your hands. Being able to kick high alows you to some chance at both blocking and attacking from the high gate.
Same reason why some styles teach one handed skills or the abiltiy to fight with the wrists together.
Also there are a few high kicks that can be executed from almost right next to the person making them 'very' deceptive and strong attacks. There hard to do and require good flexibility but they are there.

One thing to remember is that Hung Ga is split into a few quite different branchs. The main one decending from Wong Fai Hung is 'generaly' known as Canton Hung Ga. Even this is split into further factions.
There are other branchs that trace back though different linages.
There kung fu is also markedly different. Good example is Wing Lams, Hay Say Fu Hung Ga.
My replies and my training have been from the Lam Sai Wing, Lum Jo linage of Canton Hung Ga.
Here fyi is a list of the four piller forms which are common to most Canton Hung Ga [there are others these are the main ones].
Gung Gee Fuk Fu [I shape Tiger fist training]
Fu Hok Seung Ying Kuen [Tiger Crane double shape fist]
Sup Ying Kuen [litteraly- ten forms fist, contains five animals and five elements]
Tit Sing Kuen [Iron wire fist] mainly dragon
These are the main ones there are of course others.

[Leonidas]

Your example is flawed. Not many people use the foot as a target in a fight nor do they try with people changing position constantly you can get your foot tangled with someone elses thus falling. Long ago I doubt beginners in a style were taught how to kick high. they probably weren't taught any high risk moves at all for the first years of training. Now everyone kicks in every way imaginable as high and fast as possible for competition and those are usually the only techniques they use to gain points. This would bi-pass the set up and proper situation for when a kick should be used. Most really unskilled modern competitors kick flashy with little or no proper form, then later on they keep the same bad habits, and since they dont train for self defense it looks horribly wrong to other martial artist.

[Leonidas]

Oh yea, thanx for your answer..........anyone else

[TenTigers]

Misinformed people who never have been exposed to real Hung-Ga have the mistaken notion that Hung-Ga is slow. I suppose they also must think that Taiji fighters fight in slow motion. People mistake training methods for technique. Funny, nobody ever thought Tyson was a panzy because he was a boxer-they all skip rope in their training! ;-) Hung-Ga is explosive, the footwork is fast and dynamic, it is fought very in tight-closer than wing chun at times due to the fact that we fight knee to knee, hip to hip, often going right through the opponent. Inch power is the norm-every movement in a form has inch power. It places emphasis on all the animals, not simply Tiger and Crane.(that is simply its most popular form.) Hung-Ga also has long range technique and energy, therefore it is comfortable at all ranges. But the long range strike is used to close with the opponent, the real damage is done in close. Again, don't look at the long arm strikes as being long range. They can be thrown in close using the intire arm, or simply shortened up. Hung-Ga is a concept oriented art, not simply techniques. Each move in a form contains joint locks, vital point striking, and takedowns, so you can extract a move from the form and expand and extrapolate on it to develop a myriad of techniques. Change the concept, even more techniques. Add the concept of the twelve bridges-which describe qualities of energy, and a whole new world opens up. Hung-Ga forms containing over two hundred moves in each of the pillar forms so how vast is the system?
As far as kicks are concerned, depending on the teacher, Hung-Ga can contain many kicks. Too many people say that kicking above the waist is innefective, therefore they never practice them, therefore they can't throw them, and THEREFORE they can't defend against someone who can because they are not used to them. Remember, just because someone can kick well, does not mean they can kick effectively. Alot of schools have that one guy who has high pretty kicks, so they use him to feed them kicks and then feel that they can effectively defend against anyone who kicks high. Wrong. Instead, they should learn how to kick effectively, or get in a specialist. There is a famous wing chun Sifu who shall remain nameless, who once told a famous kickboxer that head kicks were useless against a good wing chun guy. When he got up off the floor, he was taught the nuances of the spinning back hook kick that put him there. BTW-this is not a reflection on wing chun, but on individuals. I know of some wing chun schools that do tons of kicks.
my two cents

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

tentigers,

What you posted is conceptually sound and is what good kungfu should be. Good illustration about what forms. I do give credit when credit's due!