8 Step, Jut Sow and Plum Flower

[Tainan Mantis]

The famous teacher of Plum Flower PM is Jiang Hwa long. His famous grand student Wei Hsiao Tang taught 8 Step.

In Wei's book he talks about the history of his style:

"At the beginning of the Republic (1911) in Yen Tai of Shan Dong was created the 8 Step style of PM. It was combined from PM's Jiang Hwa Long, Ba Gwa's Wang Zhong Ching and Tong Bei and Hsing Yi's Chen De Shan..."

"...They each added their best techniques to create 6 forms and named them Dzai Yao in 6 sections..." (More on this later)

According to this story the essential forms of 8 Step are the 6 Dzai Yao forms.

Shuai Sho(jut sow) PM:
Not much information is available about this style. Neither I nor anyone else I know, including, Fernando at Mantis Cave has been able to connect this style to a name.

Joe Mantis said 8 Step and Shuai Sho are the same. I believe this info comes from my teacher. This is why:

-In the 8 Step teacher Wei Hsiao Tang's book he lists the 12 Character formula for his style plus Secret Door and Shuai Sho. (Actually Shuai Sho's is only 8 characters) But that is the only mention of Shuai Sho PM in the entire book.

-In The Encyclopedia of Wu Shu Shuai Sho PM is listed as coming from Plum Flower PM.

These are the only 2 shreds of proof I have found to support that the 2 styles have any connection.

The Dzai Yao forms of Plum Flower PM and 8 Step PM are different but recognizable.

About the history of the Dzai Yao forms.
-HK7* has three only(I'm not sure about the mainland). The first form matches that of Plum Flower but the rest appear to be completely unrelated.

-Taiji PM also has these forms so how do they fit into the story?

I think that Jiang Hwa Long and friends may have modified or added to some existing dzai yao forms instead of creating them all from scratch, for those of you that have learned some or all of these forms what do you think?

[EARTH DRAGON]

Dear tainan, you seem to a good amount of knowledge in pm so If you dont know I think we may have a hard time finding out. The undersanding I have explained by my shrfu is that it was feng hua yi that was a shuai chiao master and he was the one who added chinese wrestling to the 8 step system incorporating 40 basic throws. along with chinna from eagle claw.

[mantis108]

First off, the following is my own research and my own opinion. It DOES NOT in any form or shape represent my style or any one in my style other than my very own. So if there are mistakes they will be solely mine.

There are numerous versions of Dzai Yao. I have seen a tape on the internal Praying Mantis tournament (2000) held in Shandong province. I was amazed of the amount of verison even though the form retained basic structure. It is recognizable although changes have been made here and there.

The reason that Dzai Yao is believed to be the creation by Josi Wong Long is because of the 18 styles poem which I believe was publish with a few 7 Stars books. Personally, and I stress personally, I believe that the poem has be misinterperted in use. Having said that I must also say that I have only the English versions of the poem available to me. I will have to look at the Chinese version (if anyone would provide one, I will be very grateful.) to confirm. My research seems to suggest that the poem might have been imitating or try to imitate the material presentation of Quan Jing by General Chi (CE 1528-1587). It might have been created to booster Tanglangquan as one of the "style" (much the same way JKD now?) of the time. In other words, some thing to help popularize Tanglangquan (TLQ). It is like to say "oh look TLQ is as ligit as Tai Tzu Chang Quan (much older than TLQ)." Remember, THERE WAS NOT SUCH THING AS ADVERTISING, or yellowpages, etc. But a poem would be an acceptable and civil format as introducing something.

One other thing that I found extremely interest and lead to the believe that an act of copy cat might have been paussible is that in the General Chi's book there was the mentioning of "8 Hard and 12 soft"! Althought the concept was really refering to using battle field weaponary, it is in no way to ignor such concept already existed predating the creation of TLQ decades( if not centuries) ago. BTW, Josi was "suppposed" to have lived late Ming and early Ching (CE 1609 - 1702). So someone must have borrowed it some how.

I do firmly believe that Bung Bo, Lan Jeet and Baat Jow were created by Josi Wong Long.

Where would Dzai Yao came from? This I would go with Taiji Praying Mantis tradition which in essence is Mui Fah lineage. As all Mui Fah lineages goes, the one common originator was Leung Shui Heung (I forgot the pinying in manderine). He was the creator of the Dzai Yao, which was his birthday present by 17 styles master (the poem might be the accompanying praise? that I will have to work on more). How does this fit into the 7 stars then? there are certain 7 Stars lineages that pointed out certain generations of masters was unclear or simply thought missing. IF, and a big if, we were to believe that there was only Manits (one big happy family theory) not the many different styles, then what I have propose might just work. But then I could be dead wrong. Since Master Leung could have been shown or his peers could have learned from him and... lots of doors open here.

Anyway, we all assume that history of TLQ is just straight forward, but I say it could be more than meets the eyes.

So let the stoning beings :D

Mantis108

PS I stress that this is only research and is by no means definitive material. So take it as it is nothing more. And no broken hearts please and or nasty emails. ;)

[Tainan Mantis]

Mantis108,
I have the Chinese 18 families poem and the Song Tai Dzu poem as published by WHF.

It lists his 17 teachers and what they were good at. One thing is for sure though, he definetly didn't study with the people on that list. Maybe some of them but not all. But by listing the grandmaster or creator of some of those style it indicates that his teachers had some type type of lineage tree. Unfortuneatly, some names seem to be from novels or myths.

Chi Ji Guang,
8 rigid 12 flexible:
I read that part and found the lack of info depressing. He only mentions Wang Lang's rigid #1 with no explanation. I was hoping you could read that chapter and see something I didn't.

Like you said, the 8 rigid and 12 flexible are probably something from weapons. Since a good fighter at the end of the Ming would be defined by weapons ability more than empty hand, it stands to reason that Wang Lang was the expert of some weapons. He then used those terms in his emty hand fighting vocabulary.


I find nothing in either of the poems of PM to link it to Dzai Yao. Or to indicate it was plagarized from another book.

I am wondering if the 7* Dzai Yao #1 may be the closest to the original.
This is because it is shorter and simpler. I have a feeling that each generation adds stuff and makes it more complicated. So each generation adds more moves and more sections. But so far I have no proof.

Someone who studied 7* in China may be able to help here.

Earth Dragon,
I'm not sure if you are asking me a question here, but what I said can exist peacefully with what you said.

[mantis108]

"I have the Chinese 18 families poem and the Song Tai Dzu poem as published by WHF."

Like I said I will have to look at the Chinese version(s) to confirm my view.

"It lists his 17 teachers and what they were good at. One thing is for sure though, he definetly didn't study with the people on that list. Maybe some of them but not all. But by listing the grandmaster or creator of some of those style it indicates that his teachers had some type type of lineage tree. Unfortuneatly, some names seem to be from novels or myths."

That's more or less my ponit. Most people presume that the poem means that Josi did study all those 17 styles even with those "people". As you pointed out, it might not be so. I am only saying what if it means something else. If we can not actually find the 17 styles tech presented in present day PM, what is the point of the poem? If he did study the 17 styles and created Dzai Yao (highlights or essence of the styles), that would make a lot of sense. But can we tell which technique from which style form Dzai Yao according to the poem? If Dzai Yao has nothing to do with the 17/18 styles, why is it name highlights or essence of the styles? Any name will do, why Dzai Yao? These are not easy questions to answer.

"Chi Ji Guang,
8 rigid 12 flexible:
I read that part and found the lack of info depressing. He only mentions Wang Lang's rigid #1 with no explanation. I was hoping you could read that chapter and see something I didn't.

Like you said, the 8 rigid and 12 flexible are probably something from weapons. Since a good fighter at the end of the Ming would be defined by weapons ability more than empty hand, it stands to reason that Wang Lang was the expert of some weapons. He then used those terms in his emty hand fighting vocabulary."

I agreed with you here that he or later generation might have borrowed from the "common" concept similar to the "centerline theory" of today. It must be clear that 8 rigid and 12 flexible did not belong to PM in its original form. It would most likely be an adaptation in PM if this book predates the creation of PM. This would also suggest that PM is formulated with deliberate thoughts through studying martial arts not the sudden "enlightenment" as we tend to believe. I believe we have to look at the three sonets (on the same page) together to make some sense of what lies beneath. Certain adjustments must be make from adapting weapon principles into hand-to-hand, but in general they stated the importance of using footwork, going high low/ left right, etc... That's quite consistent with Mantis fighting strategy. The interest comment about the 8 rigid is that they should be used before opponent's strength, and 12 soft should be used after opponent's strength. In this sense, this is almost the same protocol in PM.

"I find nothing in either of the poems of PM to link it to Dzai Yao. Or to indicate it was plagarized from another book. "

I wouldn't say it is plagarized. I would say was somewhat inspired by the presentation of the Quan Jing. But then it may not be at all. One thing of note is that Chinese "love" to liberally borrow "ideas" without giving due credit. So ....

"of present
I am wondering if the 7* Dzai Yao #1 may be the closest to the original.
This is because it is shorter and simpler. I have a feeling that each generation adds stuff and makes it more complicated. So each generation adds more moves and more sections. But so far I have no proof.

Someone who studied 7* in China may be able to help here."

I have no experience with 7 stars Dzai Yao, so I will not comment here.

Regards

Mantis108