Baat Gong Faat ( Ba Gong Sau) The Eight Hard methods

[mantis7]

Happy Holidays List


It seems that the list has been very quite as of late. So let us put this idea on the table for the discussion for the Holidays.

Through my research and discussion on these methods and the great Internet. ( thanks to my Sifu Carl Albright and Stephen Cottrell Sifu web sites)

You have the following

Tai San Ngat Ding (Mountain Tai Falls on the Incense Burners) This is a chopping down Motion. This is represented by the movement Pek Choy.

Since this is a topic that could fill volumes alone let us discuss on how to apply them one motionat a time and how to apply them in a combat situation and what kind of jing is needed to produce optimal efficiency and out come...

Let us look at this also and how it can correlate to the Tip Sao Yee Gwan Sao (If intercepted, then bend the elbow to roll and continue with the attack)

How would you all demonstrate this tech?

When these two concepts can be link does the door open for Dip Gow An Gong (sticking and elbowing hard) i.e. Baat Jang (domineering elbow) using the elbow to off balance the opponent and to force them into a precarious position.

So the question standing is if all these concepts can and are linked (IMO) what best movement can best represent this. i.e. form segment or free fighting movements.

Hopefully this will help jump start the mind for the new year :D :p

[Tainan Mantis]

I think you have come up with a good question. But it is hard to talk about the movements using Chinese terms. It is difficult for me to read the Cantonese pronunciation, while you may have trouble with the Mandarin.
The translation you gave is helpful, but another reference point would help too.

You mention Rigid #1 and flexible #4.
Then it seems like you mention Rigid #4, but I'm not sure.
Also it seems like you have mentioned the combo from WHF beng bu book #21 and 22. But I'm not sure.

Also, in this question are you assuming that rigid #4 is or can be represented by #22 in beng bu?

On a related note, I posted a similar question just before the move but it seems to have vanished from the data base.

I thought it would be better to start from rigid #8 and go backwards. Well, we can get to that later.

[mantis7]

SORRY I THOUGHT I WAS VERY ACCURATE WIH WHAT I WROTE..

I PU IN THE CANTONESE ANDTH MANDARIN VERSION SI THINK ITS EARLY IN THE MOURNING AND I HAVE BEEN WORKING ON MY WEB PAGE MY MIND IS BLOODY PULP RIGHT NOW LOL..


ACTUALLY I DIDNT USE NY BOOKS I WAS LOOKING OVER MY NOTES AND THEORY AND CONCEOT SEEM TO CLICK AND MADE ME WONDER. WHAT I DID WAS JUST PLUCK MOVEMENTS FROM MY HEAD AND TRID THEM OUT (SORRY COUS)

AFTER I GET SOME SLEEP I WILL TRY TO CLARIFY MORE SO WITH EXAMPLES AND SO FORTH.

BYE THE BYE WITH A A TOPIC LIKE THIS IS THOUGHT POPLE WOULD ACTUALLY LOVE TO TAKE A BITE OUT OF THIS BUT IT SEEMS PEOPLE DONT IKE TO DELVE THIS DEEP LOL

VINCE

[mantis7]

SORRY I THOUGHT I WAS VERY ACCURATE WIH WHAT I WROTE..

I PU IN THE CANTONESE ANDTH MANDARIN VERSION SI THINK ITS EARLY IN THE MOURNING AND I HAVE BEEN WORKING ON MY WEB PAGE MY MIND IS BLOODY PULP RIGHT NOW LOL..


ACTUALLY I DIDNT USE NY BOOKS I WAS LOOKING OVER MY NOTES AND THEORY AND CONCEOT SEEM TO CLICK AND MADE ME WONDER. WHAT I DID WAS JUST PLUCK MOVEMENTS FROM MY HEAD AND TRID THEM OUT (SORRY COUS)

AFTER I GET SOME SLEEP I WILL TRY TO CLARIFY MORE SO WITH EXAMPLES AND SO FORTH.

BYE THE BYE WITH A A TOPIC LIKE THIS IS THOUGHT POPLE WOULD ACTUALLY LOVE TO TAKE A BITE OUT OF THIS BUT IT SEEMS PEOPLE DONT IKE TO DELVE THIS DEEP LOL

VINCE

[MightyB]

Two good forms to show you how to apply all of those moves effectively are the Fan Che forms. Dai Fan Che and Su Fan Che. Ask your Sifu to show you those forms with the applications.

[Tainan Mantis]

Mighty B,
I have seen so many dissimilar variations of those two forms. It makes them unconvenient to talk about.
How about picking some forms to which WHF has published a book. Such as beng bu.

The fourth rigid technique-die dzo ying gong- fold elbow and lift. How can you describe it?

[MightyB]

Tainan, sorry for taking so long to reply.

I've been busy harrasing the people on the main kung fu forum and generally making a nuisance of myself.

I would use it like the form implies.

The opponent throws a left at your face, you don't like that so you hook the incomming left and step up with a pek to his face. He doesn't like that so he uses an upper block (gwa with his right arm) to stop your pek. You hook his arm and roll his wrist and straighten his arm to expose the vulnerable side of his right elbow for your upper elbow strike (in an effort to break or hyper-extend the joint. You also pivot your feet and go into a cross legged stance to facilitate the next move and it's a fast transition). He doesn't want his elbow broke or hyper-extended, so he bends his elbow slightly to counter, you waist no time and step up with you left foot, keep holding his right arm with your right hand, and roll and slam your left elbow into his floating ribs, armpit, or face if he's short.


On a side note. I'm a video producer by trade and I'm looking at producing an instructional video set on the eight hard and 12 soft concepts starring Sifu Henry Chung. This would correspond with a simultaneous web page launch for Chung's School of Praying Mantis Kung Fu. We're setting up to do this sometime after the Holidays are over. We're looking for video ideas, so if there are things from the 7 Star system that you would like to see produced into instructional videos, please email me (from my profile page) and let me know. Some initial ideas are the Bench form and Sub Sa Lo.

The Mighty B

[Tainan Mantis]

Mighty B,
I believe you have described sticking(nien) elbow and turning(guai) elbow.
In WHF beng bu book it is #'s 21 to 23.

For TJPM it is upward(chow tien) elbow and delivering(ding) elbow.
In Tse Wing Ming's beng bu book it is #'s 24 to 26.

I have a problem with your definition of the 4th rigid technique which is;
- Die dzo ying gong-folded elbow forcefully lift.

In the names of the 8 elbows we have:
-sticking(nien) elbow
-turning(guai) elbow
-folded(die) elbow
-etc.

So it seems to me that you have used sticking and turning elbow to define folded elbow.

On the other hand, sticking elbow is folded like the elbow technique known as "folded elbow"
And, forcefully lift definetely describes the action performed in "sticking elbow."
This would seem to support your statement.

But there are many instances in many forms where the term "folded elbow" is used for 1 specific technique. And this takes away support from your statement.

So I propose that rigid#4 is really the folded elbow with backfist;
WHF beng bu#7-8
or
TJPM beng bu #10-11

And this back fist is a part of rigid #5 -tie men kao bi-STICK TO THE DOOR LEAN ON THE WALL.
Which is to say it can not only be done as a back fist to the nose but like the technique-gun bang-rolling shoulder.
This is supported by the fact that the rolling shoulder is done with a backfist type hand position in secret door's lan jie forms, while other styles do it with the forearm parallel to the floor.

In either case the way I or you described the technique is meant to pop the elbow out of the joint.
This brings up another interesting question, but first, let me know what you think.

[MightyB]

Did you find out if anybody has translated the WHF books to English yet?

Tainan, you bring up an interesting point... There are multiple applications and interpretations for the same techniques. This accounts for the mutations that people see between different styles and Sifus of Praying Mantis. When I was first trained in a form, I would be shown a way to apply the technique of the form. A couple of years later, and after I was accepted as Jo Gow (spelling phonetically), I was shown "the other way" that you could apply the technique. This happens quite alot, but my Sifu has a good way to test the validity of any interpretation of an application from a form which is to apply it precisely in the sequence that the form has it. The applications build upon the previous techniques and counters, and they should make sense and apply very easily... meaning, if the opponent does this, then you do this, then he'll do that, and you do this, and so on and so on exactly as the form has it. I hope I'm making sense.

I thought the sequence as I described it from bung bo answered Mantis 7's original question and I thought it was a good section from a common form to describe the technique... good call from you I might add.

Now, if you're trying to test me, then I say come to Michigan, or anywhere in the States, and we can compare notes. It's much easier to demonstrate than it is to describe in writing. I already conceded to you that your knowledge of the Chinese language is vastly superior to mine and you have a tremendous knowledge of PM history and philosophy. But, if you want to test my knowledge of how to apply 7 star in a more practical and less theoretical sense, I would be more than happy to accomodate you.

[MightyB]

Tainan,

I have to apologize for being hot headed at the end of my last post. I re-read both posts and I misunderstood what you were trying to say. Before I wrote the last post, I had just finished a big meeting/argument with my boss and was in a little bit of a mood. Employer's can be reall a-holes when they are bored.

Anyway, I don't think that rigid #4 really answers Mantis 7's question about entering with a pek choi and then correlating to the Tip Sao Yee Gwan Sao, and then eventually linking with Dip Gow An Gong.

What do you think?

[mantis108]

This is somewhat off topic since Tainan brought up the folding elbow.

Theorectially speaking, making an elbow strike is in itself an folding action. It doesn't matter which angle or direction the elbow goes because one must "fold" the arm to make the elbow. The TJPM folding elbow in the Bung Bo, which Tainan is saying (hope I got you right), is an eblow that come from up to down and inward. There is also a slight diagonal angeling because of this angeling, there is a few things you can do with it

IMHO, TJPM use the folding elbow 2 ways - striking and trapping

I guess one could say its both hard (striking) and soft (trapping).

Now, in Striking you can use the folding eblow 2 ways again - a real strike or a fient. The real strike is remarkablely similar in feature and strength of a Thai elbow the comes up/down and/or diagonally. It also "cuts" very sharp too. In the Bung Bo form (without the 2 men version) you see a linear counter by the opponent in which he pulls back and you follow up with a avalanche punch (down ward back fist). This follow up should nail him right on the nose/face. The two men version gives a circular counter (evasive) by the opponent. This is the concept of real and fient - Shui Seh (very poor pinyin). :D

The trapping usage is taught outside of the form in the Sau Fa. So the form(2 men included) is the door and the Sau Fa is the key to unlock the door. To truely appreciate mantis, the doors and the keys must both be presented. You might be able to open doors that are not locked but to open doors that are locked you must also have the keys just in case.

Mantis108

[Tainan Mantis]

Mighty B,
I think Mantis 7 brought up a very good question that I would like to discuss in detail. I find that difficult to do though, without an understanding of how my brothers define certain techniques.

So, going one at a time, I pick rigid #4 first.
On your description of application a few posts back (avalanche punch-sticking elbow-turning elbow) it seems to be exactly how I was taught it, so no problems there.
I want to know how to define rigid#4. I have considered, prevoius to KFO, that your application might describe rigid #4, but I'm not convinced.

So, for now, I'll bypass Mantis 7's question, if you all don't mind, and work to define the techniques that makeup the question. This will hep prevent confusion.

WHF books haven't been translated, but almost identicle books have been made in English from masters of that lineage.
And no testing on KFO, just the acquistion of friends and knowledge.

Mantis108,
You mention that all elbows are folded. Are you proposing that rigid#4 can apply to all the 8 elbow techniques?
I never thought of it that way.

[mantis108]

Tainan Mantis,

IMHO, PM elbows are rearly in action these days. I mean seriously how many mantis stylist train or showed to train them? People keep talking about elbows in PM almost like an urban legend. These are the bread and butter of PM but only a few can use them or have the will to use them. The example that was given before by Mighty B (?) is in my view the one-two combo of Manits eblows similar to that of the boxing one-two punch combo. Now boxer can unleash the one-two punch at will. How many Mantis stylists drill the one-two elbow to that point? I bet you 10 to 1 that most school treat that as gold plated plague and put it high on the shelves. Look but do not touch attitude. Personally, I drill them with pad drills. Techniques are meant to be used not admired. This is why the quality of Mantis slacks and vary all over the board. Few real techniques are shown and if they are shown they are show pieces only.

I have 3 version (English translations) of the 8 rigids from various sources

version 1:

Wheel fist
straight punch to the face
double palm strike
elbow to break or strike
body press
back fist
leak to punch the stomach
side hammer and back fist across

version 2:

chopping strike
straight punch
double penertrating palms
domineering elbow
crashing against a gate
double crashing strike
gripple round punch
jerk and strike

version 3:

chopping down motion
straight forward
double palm
upward & downward eblow breaking
ramping tech
illusive tech
confusing tech
midline defense

All three agree basically on #4 that it is an elbow strike/break with the exception that version 3 specifies the motion is upward and downward. So we can pretty much see #4 is elbow strikes. Could #4 be applied or thought of as 8 elbows (like the link that I have given on the TJPM forum) according to these translations? I would say yes. BTW, I don't believe in one finite move defines a principle. Also there is not a "hard" techniques that can't be used "softly" or vice versa. That's why Mantis is so intriguing.

As for the folding action, it is like tightening the fist at the impact movement - not before or after. This way you will be able to capitalize the energy. This is the most important detail that many don't pay attention to. The elbow is mostly formed before or after the impact that could not capitalize the energy created by the folding motion of the arm; hence, less umph. Regardless of the angle, as long as you are doing elbow, capitalize the folding of the arm. Try it with pads, focus mitts, etc... try all the angles. Take the 8 rigids and work them like pad drills. I am sure it will bring something interest results.


Regards

Mantis108

[mantis7]

Sorry for the late post but I had to tear things down a bit to come to a scientific conclusion. I was in the lab lol.
I am so glad that this can be discussed and tat there are epople out there who know more than just forms movemnts. It takes a lot to sit down andactually examine an pick a part what the formulas correleate to.

Any Who mantis108 you are correct on the folding action of the elbow most people do not understand that as you set up for a elbow strike the folding of the forearm is adding speed or inertia to the arms movement and concentrating it on to a small striking surface area of the elbow. This in itself is creating a very effective and damaging effect.( thanks for the idea for tmy answer on the bottom:D )


Now for the movements that I stated earlier I will try my best to give a written example.
Instead of giving you the forms movements I will give a simple fighting scenario to see if it will make things clear as sometime movements in Kuens are transmitted differently (your own piece of sky you know)
The attacker is in a southpaw-fighting stance and the defender is in a regular left leg and left hand forward fighting stance (I am a right handed fighter but I prefer to use the south paw fighting stance)
Now say for example the attacker strikes with a Right Pek Choy and the defender uses a rising block with his left arm.

1. The defender now deflects or Hangs the attack with a over head block using the 12 formula Gwa

2. Now as the defender does this and the attacker slides his left hand into position under his right sliding down the defenders forearm to wipe clean the defense and seize the opponent wrist. As the attacker seizes the wrist of the defender the attacker rolls his elbow up and over the now straighten arm. This is in effect will create a trapping motion. (With the pulling of the arm straight this in effect uses the first part of Jum Da (jerk and strike) pulling the arm to a straighten position setting up the strike)

No 2 movements can be classified in the following. Tip Sao Yee Gwan Sao (if intercepted then bend the elbow to roll around and continue with out withdrawal) also if the opponent sticks with his Gwa Jim Sao Yee Pau Sao (if the opponent sticks then attack his wrist) might be a valid usage of the formula.



3. Now as the elbow has trapped the now straighten arm (I know there is a counter to every trap and yes this simple trap only affords you a fraction of a second but bear with me) The attacker advances and uses the point of his or her elbow (right arm) in a forward motion to strike what ever target is desired (for example sake lets say the chest (sternum)) This is the use of Baat Jang (domineering elbow) using the elbow to force the opponent into a awkward position. I know a lot of people use the elbow to press in a horizontal pressing motion with the whole of the forearm. I thought I try something different.

4. Now as this is all going on the jerking of the opponent’s wrist can be compounded. Since the jerking movement is going towards the attackers left side, the attacker can use a seven star sweep to sprout the leg upwards as the defender is being pulled forward with the jerking motion and being strike in the chest with the forward moving elbow. This will cause the defender to fall at an angled position. (I hope this is some what clear) This is what is the awkward position.

Also it seems that An Bong Fok Tsai (strike hard above and kick below) is being used also. Some may say no but as you are using the elbow to strike hard above after you have caused a trapping motion with the elbow (which the trap may just be a fraction of a second lol it is kind of deceptive) and you are sprouting the leg up and sweeping (I know it is called kicking but cant we just stretch it a bit LOL) but I feel this represents this well IMO. There are many ways of viewing this.

Guys I thank you as you have given me much to think about. That is Y I sat down to try and come up with a simple and easy tech set up to describe the motions using the what I stated earlier in my first post.


Vince Night

It is better to be tried by twelve than to be carried by six!!!!!

;)

[mantis108]

Mantis7,

You obvisously have put quite some thoughts into this. That's good effort on your part. :)

Coming from a different Mantis style prespective there are too many variables in the move that you proposed. Although the concepts behind the principles are presented with deliberate thoughts, I am wondering may be there are certain conditions which you might want to address before applying this move.

1. From what you explained, this would seem that the success of the move is conditional. (i.e. the defender would have to use Gwa and that he is only defending not defends and attacks at the same time. ) What if he uses Gwa Tung (a varialbe) as one move? Would you have time enough to use the left hand to grab the hanging arm's wrist? If you don't then he can Pek Choy you back from his hanging hand (i.e. the sequence in the form Mantis steals the peach). This senario might then become a trading punches thing from this point on.

2. If indeed he's slow (a big variable) and that you are successful in trapping and/or jerk-pull (choi) his hanging hand (assuming he doesn't use body structure to hang but just the arm to hand - another variable) , he still has a free hand (another variable) to count the domineering elbow.

All I am saying is that opening with Pak Choy is risky unless you are confidant about your attributes enough to take the guy out in one move or be prepare to trade punches. It is safer to have some sort of a lead to it and follow up with other stuff. As far as my experience in Mantis goes, never rely on attributes and eliminating most if not all variables of the opponent piror to execution of technique is key to the success of technique. He can only respond in the way you wanted it to what you feed him. It is like Sun Tze's "Art of War" - the prevailing army won (over all the variables of the war) before going into the war.

I believe you have worked hard on this. What you have described has merits but I am only sharing from a different perspective which might be off topic here. Anyway good going.

Regards

Mantis108

[mantis7]

Mantis 108

Thanks for the compliement and yes they are a great variable in the attack and defense but the example was set forth to be 100 % prcent infoulable. I made it simple and easy to defunk as I wanted it to only represent the key formulas. I wanted to make it as simpile as possible s the advance people and the beginners here on the board can see way the key formulas can be applied in a straight forward manner that can transfer cross out respective familes with out mincing what form is that movement from and what sequence or road.

I trid to make it very simple and I know thee are a lot of varaibales that need be addressed. I just wanted the formuls to be put forward in a easy to understand format. Like teaching a child how to tie his shoes.

LOL you think like me you saw all the holes and the counters just started to pop out. So if you like make the couner using the 12 soft methods and 8 hard methods and keyword formulas.

1. From what you explained, this would seem that the success of the move is conditional. (i.e. the defender would have to use Gwa and that he is only defending not defends and attacks at the same time. ) What if he uses Gwa Tung (a varialbe) as one move? Would you have time enough to use the left hand to grab the hanging arm's wrist? If you don't then he can Pek Choy you back from his hanging hand (i.e. the sequence in the form Mantis steals the peach). This senario might then become a trading punches thing from this point on.


Yes the gua whould haveto be there for a seond or two and a seasoned practioner would have counered with a Gwa Tung it would most likely come down to the who has the faster pluck movment and blocking and striking at the same time.

2. If indeed he's slow (a big variable) and that you are successful in trapping and/or jerk-pull (choi) his hanging hand (assuming he doesn't use body structure to hang but just the arm to hand - another variable) , he still has a free hand (another variable) to count the domineering elbow

also in this movement he can bend the elbow and wrap the arm and continue the attack but I just want the topic I posted to keep on track and continue with some of the great post it alreadt has lol..

To beable to transmit information over the internet it is best kept in simple format and make easily understood by all since we all dont use the same dialct in discribing the formulas and may not repesent the movements in the same manner.

This is a just a example and is not in anyway a real combat tech as starting with a pek may not be most cup of tea and the follow up IMO isnt aggressive enuff for me but it is simple enuff to keep the conversatin going and maybe by the time we all put info in the example will grow into a full blown full on combat tech from mantis that is effective


Vince

[Tainan Mantis]

Mantis7,
You and MightyB have described something similar to the 2 person set of beng bu 2nd road.
Your addition of the sprouting kick was an interesting twist.

In WHF's chapter
UNDERSTANDING PM
He mentions the 2 elbow techniques you have just described which I translate as sticking elbow and turning elbow.
The fourth rigid I translate as "folding elbow forcefully encircle"

He says,
"...the techniques FOLDING ELBOW FORCEFULLY ENCIRCLE, TWISTING BODY STICKING ELBOW, FOLLOWING FOOTWORK TURNING ELBOW etc. are the short range rigid techniques where using the hand to wrap or twist..."

Mantis108 said that the 4th rigid, "folding elbow forcefully encircle" may apply to all the 8 elbow techniques. But, at least in 7* this doesn't seem to be the case according to WHF.

[mantis108]

Tainan Mantis wrote:

"...the techniques FOLDING ELBOW FORCEFULLY ENCIRCLE, TWISTING BODY STICKING ELBOW, FOLLOWING FOOTWORK TURNING ELBOW etc. are the short range rigid techniques where using the hand to wrap or twist..."

It is interesting that Tainan pick these three examlpes (I wonder if this is just coincident?) I am a firm believer in that - all things PM are holistic in nature. The above qoute gives the involvement of the arm (folding elbow...), the body (Twisting body...) and the footwork (following footwork ...) in short range rigid techs (RE: silk reeling force) . Although we might see an emphasis with a certain point but in essence it is body functions as a whole. The emphasisi are mere extra attention paid to capitalize the unique feature (body mechanics) that forms the "techniques". In other words the emphasis is the technique. Not the movement nor the motion is the technique. Furthermore, it is rather interesting that encircle, twisting, and turning all are circular in nature. In a sense, this is like rope or a whip in motion. Now, without the "tightening" (the quick folding of the arm to form the elbow), there will not be a crack in the whip. Likewise, to do the "crack" without the whip (steering the crack) it is rather pointless (pun intended). A turning elbow without the footwork to follow (to steer) the elbow (folding arm at the impact point) is certainly ineffective and self defeating because the feature (footwork) is gone. How can the move be codified as turning elbow without the footwork even though there is the elbow? We might only able to call the elbow - an elbow strike (with no name, therefore can't codify).

BTW, folding in English has kind of a board meaning. so I would like to clarify here that I am talking about the motion of the arm forming the elbow only. Not necessary involving the closing of the torso towards the centerline. With the quick closing of the Centerline with the elbow as a strike, it is also call the folding eblow. There is only so much you can do with English for a guy like me. ;) lol...

Mantis108

[Young Mantis]

I think this has been a very interesting discussion. There have been many points brought up that are interesting and some I agree with and some I don't.

As for the elbows, I find it interesting that the "diep jow" translated as folding elbow has been spoken or expressed only as an action of the attacker or the person applying the elbow. To Mantis108, of course the formation of an elbow requries the folding of the arm but if this definition is to be used, then are all elbows to be called "diep jow" as in the mathematical definition, "all squares are rectangles"? I do not feel all elbows are a sub-set or sub-definition of "diep jow".

For all the applications I can think of for "diep jow", it is a trap in which I have locked the opponentt's two arms, folding one of his arms around the elbow of the other and striking with my own elbow to his face. In Bung Bo, it is at the end of the the first route with a kneeling stance. As shown in the 2-person form, I trap both arms, apply an elbow strike to the face, trap the legs with the yup wan bo. The right bung chui follows either as a follow up or if the opponent has been able to release his right hand from my grip and lock.

I have deliberately not fully explained or detailed the technique I am referring to as I believe all of you who have been involved with this discussion should know what I am talking about.

So in a sense, I am suggesting that the term "diep jow" can be a reference made to what I am forcing my opponent's elbows to do and not so much what I am doing with mine. Hope that made any sense to you.

YM

[mantis108]

The trapping application was mentioned before. Forgive me if I am wrong. From what you describe I would have thought that you are from Sifu Chuy's school in NY. It would seem the way the application which you describe quite TJPM like. All that you have said have merits. I would also like to point out that the reason why I put a clarification of the word folding in my last post. May be I should further clarify on the word Dipp (diep)

Dipp in Chinese basically means to pile not necessary to fold. It is to pile something on top on something. In that sense, you are right about the trapping app. It is the way we see it in TJPM as well. IMHO, I consider that app. a soft method of the dipp jow. However, in Chinese Jie (folding) Dipp(piling) are often used together. Quite often we don't seperate the two and we quite often use Dipp only which we are supposed to understand that folding is implied. Of course, when it comes to dipp jow the folding doesn't mean only the bending of the arm to form eblow. It definitely means more than that. But all I have been saying is that eblowing is like punching. There is a tightening of the tool which is the forming of the eblow that I call folding the arm. Hope this would further clarify. :)

Regards

Mantis108

[MightyB]

I've been off for the Holiday (hope all of you had a good Christmas) and just got back in to read the forum. There's been a lot of good stuff posted on this topic and that's exactly the type of stuff that I was hoping to see when I joined the forum.

I still have a long way to go in my own training before I fully learn the the 8 hard and 12 soft ways... I hope to one day be a sifu, but if it doesn't happen, then it doesn't happen... Anyway, lately (in class) we've been treating the concepts of 8 hard and 12 soft as more of notes on a musical scale meaning that you can use them in an almost infinite variety of combinations. What we've been drilling harder is So Fot, Bo Fot, and Sun Yeen (my spelling of Cantonese words sucks, but roughly translated the words would be hand technique, footwork, and body positioning) to gain time and to control distance. Also, we've been drilling more on the concepts of hard and soft, like, if the opponent uses hard, you use soft to defeat them and so on...

I was wondering if some of you have had similar training experiences or what your thoughts would be on this.

The B

[mantis7]

Mighty B

it seems like you are on the right road to becomeing a sifu :D

Most people dont even begin to grasp the hard and soft methods durig there whole time training Mantis I myself have just started to comprehend the specrum they hold.

when encountering a hard movemnt teh 12 soft wayswere designed to neutralize the,m and the hard methods were mde to ****er teh soft so they inter mix.

if treated seperatly tey are small idea as treated as a whole they paint the big picture. Alot of schools neglec to train te methods as training skills. They should be drilled wit several tech and made to applied to full contact situations.

I am glad that we have came gether to discuss this it is to bad some of the more prominent Sifu's on this bored hasn chimed inas this post could really be a prime example of what this board was made for.

To much gossip and who is legit talk has been the nore ( i have also bee caught up in the debates lol)

Also alot of schools negelct the foot work needd to apply this tec and I am happy your teacehr has been drilling you on the usage of foot work body alignment and fighting concpets and how they coresponde to each other..

To al on this thread hapy holidays and may this new year hold untold blessing for you and yours...

[Young Mantis]

Mantis108,

Yes, you are correct in guessing I study with Sifu Tony Chuy in NYC. I am not surprised that our usage of "diep jow" are similar since Sifu spent time training with Chiu Sigung, particularly in sahn sao and trapping skills.

Thank you for the clarification and I apologize for not quite understanding them the first time around. I had thought it odd that "diep" was translated as folding but I understand your point about the folding of the arm for issuing power.

Best wishes to you in the New Year!

YM

[mantis108]

Hi Young Mantis,

Nice to have meet a student of Sifu Chuy. My regards to him. So we are in a way borthers in TJPM then. :) Not need to apologize, my friend. I thought your post was quite nice. There are quite a few long posts in this thread. Things could be missed easily. Thank you for the best wishes and same to you. BTW, if you have not visited the TJPM forum yet here's the address:

TJPM forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/Taijimantis/start)

Please come and visit us. :)

Mantis108

[Tainan Mantis]

Most everyone has talked about using the elbow technique to break or dislocate their opponents elbow.

Young Mantis likes the elbow to the face. For the record, I find, in the elbow drill I do, if my partner messes up his feet then I almost can't help not hitting him in the face with my elbow.

But back to the broken elbow. I think most people have also learned using rigid #4 , folding elbow encircling hard(die dzo ying gong) to break or dislocate their opponents elbow. There are also many books describing it this way.

Rigid #8 seems to be less certain. I believe that this is the specific rigid technique that describes dividing tendons and dislocating joints.
Shuai luo liang fen, which literally means throw-grab-two-seperate.
If you disagree, then no problem as I believe I have seen some other explanation for this one.

But, if you also learned that this is to SEPERATE TWO bones from the tendon or joint, then why does rigid #4 also seem to do the same?