Martial Arts Sparring: Men vs. Women

[Mr Nunchaku]

I hope this has not been done before.

What do you think of this? Should women and men be in seperate divisions or not? Have another solution? This really goes for all martial arts.

[Starchaser107]

All Im saying is that firstly , self defense for women should be taken JUST as seriuously as it is for men.

And if Sparring is supposed to teach fundamentals for a real life scenario then men and women should be paired together, cause in the real world its highly unlikely that a womans biggest adversary is gonna be another woman at least in a physical confrontation... so they should learn how to handle sparring with men.

I also strongly support women doing martial arts, although Ive heard the very ignorant statement that women and m.a. dont mix.

Id really like to hear what the women on this board have to say abourt sparring with men. Those that have been vocal shouldnt be opposed to the idea, at least thats the impression Ive gotten.

[Mr Nunchaku]

Ah yes, I totally agree with you. I like how you look beyond the debate that women vs men may or may not be unfair but instead you are concerned with everyone learning the martial arts to the fullest.

[neptunesfall]

of course they should spar together.
anyone taking martial arts should have some type of sparring experience.
now having said that....men vs. women is actually highly educational, for both sides
of it. i've sparred against women, so this comes from experience.
for the most part, when sparring a woman, i could brute strength myself through a technique,
if i had applied it sloppily. but whats the point of that? if the technique is sloppy, it won't work
against someone who can match your strength. so, i used these experiences towards applying
a technique correctly the first time.
on the other side of this, starchaser has it right. most likely a woman will be confronted by or defending
against a man. sparring with men will help them overcome the fear/shock of the initial situation, ie.
getting hit or grabbed, etc. by a man, who generally are much stronger than women.
it also helps to overcome psychological conditioning on both sides of the sexes -
women should be submissive/men shouldn't hit women.
some of you may disagree with what i'm about to say...but...oh well. if a woman attacks me and i am
in serious danger, ie. she has a weapon, going for my eyes, things of that nature, i will not hesitate
to hit, throw or choke out. physical violence is an act of warfare and should be treated as such.
when it comes down to survival [which a street fight is, don't fool yourself], there is no such thing
as chivalry. i've seen gang fights of women vs men. women will kill a man just as a quick as a man will kill a man.

of course, if it's some girl thats just p*ssed off and wants to slap me, i'm not gonna kick the tar out of her.

now having said that....please don't take it as an 'oh i'm tough, i'll kick a girls *ss' statement. that's not what it is.

[Mr Nunchaku]

Understood.

Specifically, though, what about tournaments where women and men are in different divisions?

[SanHeChuan]

point sparring together
full contact seperate

[Merryprankster]

Women should always have seperate competition divisions.

The women should be allowed to compete in the men's division if they choose, but not the other way round.

While it is true that a highly skilled woman is to be feared, all other things being equal, a man is stronger and faster than a woman. That's just the way it is.

[straight blast]

Most women get attacked by men, not women. Yeah, I agree if a girl wants to spar in the mens let her. I've sparred heaps of girls before and it's good for them 'cos they can actually train full power (with gloves & shinpads on) and it doesn't really hurt that much, unless you cop one right in the face.
That said though, being a 6 foot 2 male who weighs between 93kg & 100kg (depending on if I've been to the gym much) I have never come even close to being defeated by a girl of any rank, irregardless of their size, weight or experience. I simply find that after sparring guys of my own size that a woman's strikes, while being quite painful, lack the bone busting power that I recieve at the hands of like-sized pugilists.
I am all for women in Martial Arts. And I've seen a couple of women boxers who look so scary that I probably wouldn't dare to fight them. And my wife is one of the cute ones who looks too small to hurt. But she has an awesome right cross!
Like all MA people, get into it!

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

long as the b!tch is in the kitchen making me my dinner like i told her, she aint got to worry about no sparrin.

[xiong]

I think it's a fine idea. Since most tournaments are broken up into weight classes you would not have a 6'4" 230Lb man fighting a 5'2" 120Lb woman anyway.

I also saw female gangs when I was growing up and there is not a doubt in my mind about the ability of a woman to kick a mans ass. I would not hesitate to beat down a woman that I thought was trying to do me serious bodily harm.

In any event we are all Martial artists trying to develop our skills, we need a multiple range of experience to benefit our training. I think men and women sparring would benefit both sides.

[JasBourne]

I'll kick anyone's ass who tries to limit me just because I'm a girl. Martial arts is not, nor has it ever been, about gender. It's about skill and conditioning. "Kung-fu", remember? Skill attained through hard work over time.

"The women should be allowed to compete in the men's division if they choose, but not the other way round. " Oh come on, that's just stupid.


GDA, get your own **** microwave burrito, boy. And hand over that paycheck, rufus, we both know money just slips thru your fingers. ;)

[Merryprankster]

JasBourne,

You're wrong.

I know that's not a very popular thing to say anymore, but it's true.

Should men and women spar hard together? ABSOLUTELY.

Should they train together? ABSOLUTELY.

Should they have seperate competition divisions when it comes to contact fighting? ABSOLUTELY.

Should a woman be allowed to enter the men's divisions in her weight class and experience level? ABSOLUTELY...there are some women out there that are well outside the norm. The purpose of competition is to compete, and win, but there is no honor or joy in tooling everybody you come across. That's just a sign you need to step up to better competition. Some women that I have seen compete MURDER the female competition, and then choose to compete with the men. No problems there. If they want to challenge themselves in that manner then go for it. I'm pretty sure Erica Montoya (A BJJ PHENOM) has a better than good shot at beating me. By all means, let them compete in the men's division.

Should a man be allowed to enter the women's divisions? NO. Absolutely not. It's simply not fair.

[Starchaser107]

Merryprankster

hi , I was just reading your post , and I understand fully that what youre referring to is competition sparring , devisions etc.
It seems to me however that the stereotype that you are promoting is that there is inequality among the sexes, by insinuating that it is unfair for a man to enter in the womens division. I could easily be at fault here, but , I firmly believe that there should be no such division, perhaps only an adult division seperated into sub divisions by size and training experience. Not gender, I personally feel that supporting a societal myth that further subjugates women. This is a radical viewpoint I understand, but it is mine and I'll put it out on the forum to share.
I also believe that competition sparring for points and a win is futile , based on most of the tournaments ive participated in from I started ma till now. What I was referring to in my previous post was in house / kwoon/ gym sparring , this type of sparring I assume would be without points unless preparing for competition.
In that light I think that there should be no seperation at all, and in that I mean male-female adult-child beginner-advanced. Why?, simply because of my above reason , sometimes the odds are not going to be evenly placed and you might encounter an opponent who is bigger faster and stronger than you , whether you are a male or female, and the more knowledge you have as a fighter (fighting knowledge) the better your chgances at surviving are whether you are a man or a woman. Which is not to say that the superior/advanced fighter shouldnt use common sense or
use discretion in such a situation, whether that individual be a male or female.
I have sparred with children(controlled of course) not because i want to kick the tar out of a weakling but because there will be significant improvement in that childs confidence when faced with opponents his/her size or slightly bigger.
I hope you guys understand what Im trying to say here.

[JasBourne]

The point is, if you have men and women training and sparring together, and you have women competing in men's divisions, then the idea that men should be barred from women's divisions is asinine, because NO GENDER DIVISIONS ARE NEEDED.

If I compete in my weight class, the gender of my opponent is irrelevant. Ok, switch that around - I'm a guy, and I can fight a girl if she fights under a "men's division match", but I cannot fight that same girl inder a "women's division match"? That's stupid.

If fighting girls scares you, don't fight 'em. But saying its ok to fight 'em under one label, but not another label is really stupid. (oooh, is that it? No guy would want to win a "Women's Division Championship"? All your guy friends would razz you, huh!)

Your argument that guys shouldnt fight in women's competition because (presumably) the fact that they are male automatically will give them the win is likewise ludicrous. Within a weight division, the size (or ownership of) a p enis is not a factor. It is the skill of the opponents. That is WHY weight divisions exist.

When you place an artificial limitation on a person, that limitation becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy in the public perception. Look at snowboarding or surfing. There is NO REASON for gender division, yet they exist, and as a result, pro women surfers and snowboarders make waaaaaaaaay less than guys do, even though, if you look at footage of their work, they are doing not only the same thing as the guys, but in many cases, doing it BETTER. Only no one believes it, because let's face it, if they were any good, they'd be beating the guys, right? And who has time to dig up snowboarding footage of Tara Dakides and compare it to footage of Kevin Jones? Catch-22.

[Starchaser107]

Here Here!:cool:

[Merryprankster]

I appreciate what you are trying to say. You are wrong.

What happens in a fight is irrelevant. Fights are not sportive competitions and wieght classes and sex are hardly considerations.

There are, generally speaking, physical differences between the two sexes. These physical difference translate DIRECTLY into athletic performance, again, generally speaking. Am I as powerful as Cheryl Hayworth? Absolutely not. Am I as fast as Flo-Jo? Nope. Lucia Rijker would hand me my ass in a kick-boxing match.

However, the elite MALE athletes who compete in these events are so much stronger and faster than the women are its not even close. Shall we just group 300 lb Cheryl in with the 300 lb men who can outlift her by over 200lbs? How is that fair from a competition perspective? Or how about the olypmic shotputters. Lets give the women a 16 lb shot and see how they fare with it. Heck, I weigh around 10 lbs less than most olympic female shotputters, and I throw the 4 kg shot (their weight), almost as far as they do (a meter or so short). On the other hand, I am about 30 ft behind olympic level male shotputters. Just think of how badly an olympic level male shotputter would destroy a female one. It's just not sporting.

What you propose would actually DISCOURAGE women from competing to test out their skills.

The bottom line is that men are, generally speaking, faster and stronger than women, and not by just a little bit.

The sexes are NOT equal. There are anomalies on either side, but they are exceptions that prove the rule.

If a 120 lb man wishes to fight a 160 lb man in a boxing match, let em. I don't care. The 120 lb man chooses to put himself at a disadvantage, that's fine. Let him bump UP.

If a 16 year old child enters the adult division, they are bumping UP. An adult generally has greater coordination, strength and speed than a 16 year old.

When a woman enters the men's division, she is bumping UP. the persons she will be competing against are, on average, stronger and faster than she is.

If a man were to enter the women's division, that would be a step down... the skill level might be equal or possibly superior, but, generally speaking, he would be faster and stronger, and it's simply not sporting.

Women are intellectually, emotionally, and professionally the equal of men, as a group. They are NOT the equal of men physically, as a group. Consequently, in physical contests, men should not be allowed in the women's divisions

[straight blast]

I'll give you the snowboarding thing, since I know jack about snowboarding. But women's surfing being in many cases better than the mens? Sorry buddy, but they're not even close. I've surfed since I was 12 (12 years) and I never missed a surf comp or a surf mag in that time. I encourage women to do everything & to kick the guys a**es if they can, but the stuff that female champions do & get high points would hardly even score in a mens comp. No sexism here, just the voice of experience.
I've seen my female friends win comps here and there and all they basically had to do was a cutty & re-entry. And that's about all they could do. In the mens even the grommets division those moves are considered standard basics for competing.
But good on them. They're getting better & better.

[PaleDragon]

I think if there are going to be any divisions at all...there should be no switching or bumping up....if its the men division, men should be competing....if its the women's division, women should...if you're gonna let women compete in men's, why divide by gender? I agree training coed is great but i think its alittle rediculous to let people switch just because they think they can beat some of the men or men think they can win against the women...are women just not content with winning the women's divisions? If there are some people that consistantly dominate...that just makes the people in that division train harder...they shouldn't go to another division for a better challenge.

[shaolinboxer]

I have taken the time to watch plenty of men and women's kickboxing, and the calibur of fighter in the men's division is much higher than in the womens (with those few exceptions that should always be mentioned).

I don' t know if fighting sports can be compared to things like snowboarding. In snowboarding, noone is trying to disable you with crushing blows to the face, neck, legs, stomach....

For point sprring matches, perhaps mixed divisions would work.

But for full contact fighting...for now the sexes have to be split, for the safety of the fighters, until there are more women who can bridge the gap.

Within the confines of controlled sparring in a school setting. mixing of the sexes is healthy for everyone's martial arts.

[Budokan]

Can't have it both ways. If a woman is entitled to enter men's divisions and spar then the reverse should also be true.

Frankly, I have no problem sparring women. If you go into a competition and view your opponent as a woman then you've already put yourself into a dangerously debilitating mindset. It's an opponent at a competition; no more and no less. Therefore, you should do what you always do: destroy him or her, crush them into the canvas and dance over their broken body while their family weeps with remorse in the stands. Then, and only then, move on to your next bout.

GDA, what you have to do is pull off the major coup of a lifetime that I did and most men only dream of: Make your wife go out and work while you stay home with the kids. What a life! I get to play with my two little boys, write (which is what I do for a living--if you can call it that--anyway) and work on my MA. I'm telling you I've hit the motherload! And at night I have to service her like that stallion I am. It's a win-win situation for everyone involved.

[Starchaser107]

budokan deserves a beer for that one.